Kelly warned of 'dark actors playing games' (Not Suicidal)

[LauraK]

Weapons expert Dr David Kelly reportedly told of "many dark actors playing games" in an email to a journalist hours before his suicide.

The words appeared to refer to officials at the Ministry of Defence and UK intelligence agencies with whom he had sparred over interpretations of weapons reports, according to the New York Times.

The message gave no indication that he was depressed and said he was waiting "until the end of the week" before judging how his appearance before the House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee had gone.

The newspaper did not name the recipient of the email.

It said another associate had received a "combative" message from Dr Kelly shortly before he left his Oxfordshire home for the last time on Thursday.

The scientist said in the email that he was determined to overcome the scandal surrounding him and was enthusiastic about the possibility of returning to Iraq.
<cut
Dr Kelly's wife Janice told the New York Times her husband had worked on Thursday morning on a report he said he owed the Foreign Office and had sent some emails to friends.

She said: "After lunch, he went out for a walk to stretch his legs as he usually does."

Mrs Kelly said she had no indication that her husband was contemplating suicide.

More here

[Noordam]

1. Who Killed him

making plans then going out on a normal walk.

This was a murder plain and simple.

[indictrichardperle]

2. Damn right it was

The Brit "shadow govt", that pushed for the war is guilty. It makes no difference whether there are pro-war Torries or pro-war Blair backers involved(likely both) its still the same stinking pro-war crowd.

The "wrist cut" also is a very crude cover-up.

[colorado_ufo]

10. Ever hear if someone committing suicide by cutting ONE wrist?

Oh - yeah - let's be sure to leave the obligatory open container of pills lying around. If there were any pills left, that in and of itself should have disproved suicide: If you were committing suicide and looking to lessen the pain, wouldn't you take the WHOLE BOTTLE? What - he was afraid he might overdose?

The only credibility I would give to the assumption of suicide is that publishing it would be a deliberate red herring, to allow a fuller investigation to proceed without media interference or scaring the perpetrators deeper underground.

[w4rma]

3. The walk was routine for him, also.

Which means that someone could have scouted out where and when to be to pick him up and drive him 5 miles away.

She said: "After lunch, he went out for a walk to stretch his legs as he usually does."

[spinbaby]

8. 5 MILES away?

Was he really found 5 miles from home?

[colorado_ufo]

12. What elderly man walks five miles

to commit suicide?

[JoFerret]

15. He was a walker

Five miles is nothing to a walker. And he was NOT elderly. The British often love going on extended walks. Nothing suspicious in that.

[nolabels]

69. Come on now, walk five miles, take a few pain killers, slash one........

wrist and leave no clue or note. If that was a plan to off your self to escape the world, wouldn't one be able to think of a even more confused nuances to ad to such eclectic planning. Let me guess they are going to find some secret locker with a laptop with all the notes on how he planed this months in advance.
Memoranda: Underestimated Resources Develops Escaping Responsibilities

[Romey]

5. Check this out

He (Kelly) was in Baghdad in June and met with troops involved in the weapons hunt. He was scheduled to return to Baghdad and take up a post with the Iraq Survey Group, a Pentagon (news - web sites)-led effort taking over the search for suspected weapons of mass destruction.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=540&ncid=716&e=4&u=/ap/20030719/ap_on_re_mi_ea/britain_weapons_adviser

Also, according to this article from Global Free Press..

From 1984-1992 he was Head of Microbiology at the Chemical and Biological Defence Establishment, Porton Down. Kelly was also among the hardliners who claimed that Iraq had WMD.

http://news.globalfreepress.com/article.pl?sid=03/07/10/1226212

If this is accurate, Kelly was deep in the belly of the beast and BEGS the question - WHY did Kelly meet with Gilligan?

[SoCalDem]

4. I would like to see the phone records..

Someone probably called him and since he "knew" them he did not sound any alert.. He probably went willingly to meet them and told his wife he was taking a walk..

Poor guy..:(

[Tikki]

7. I would like to know....

...wasn't there a KNIFE found near-by? I would like to know if they can link ownership of the knife to Mr. Kelly.

[oldcoot]

14. Good Question

If he committed suicide, they should be able to find the knife.

[screembloodymurder]

84. The knife was probably stolen from his home

Suicide my ass.

[colorado_ufo]

11. Apparently, a walk was part of his normal routine.

This would have made him a "sitting duck" for anyone planning an attack. How easy it all was!

(BTW, Marvin is adorable - love the bandana!)

[karlschneider]

6. Wrist cutting is not a very effective way to commit suicide...unless

the cuts are made lengthwise between the bones to get into the arteries.
They need to do an autopsy - but there are poisons that are practically undetectable. I also don't believe he offed himself.
:eyes:

[study_war_no_more]

9. This is scarey

Brits are gonna be outraged and not let this one pass. They also have a free "media" unlike Bush's patsys on this side of the pond.

[notadmblnd]

26. And neither is taking pills

Dont most people do one or the other? I know when my sister tried to kill herself she took pills, she was at home. She did not go anywhere. After she was found and treated. She told me, the reason she took pills was because she thought she would just go to sleep. I was surprised when she told me it was very painful. She went into convulsions and described it as a violent shaking in her head and muscles.

[joeunderdog]

37. That's why the amount of blood at the scene will tell..

if that was the cause of death. They can rule out blood loss as the cause if there wasn't much blood near the body--and there wouldn't be if his heart was not beating when his wrist was cut.

[Ripley]

13. So there is no suicide note?

One would think that if he was driven to stress levels where he contemplated suicide, he would have angrily written down the names (or in general) of those whom he blamed for driving him to the brink.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

16. I think it probable that dark forces offed him but what if...

these 'DF's had threatened his wife the way the White House threatened former ambassador Wilson's wife by 'outing her' as CIA?
These DF's are trying to staunch the flow of truth from insiders by going after their loved ones. Just another ugly theory because, lately, all theories are ugly.

[RevolutionStartsNow]

17. Suicide or murder

It doesn't matter, either way, they killed him. There is no indication that this man was otherwise depressed or suicidal before this whole episode. So whether he was driven to suicide or actually murdered, the hands of the British gov't are covered in his blood, and they know it.

[Dover]

18. What makes you think it was British "dark forces"? Wasn't he just as much

a threat to Bush and the Pentagon? They leave a trail of bodies everywhere they go, and like to use such methods to scare others into keeping quiet.

[Tinoire]

20. These "dark forces" are international. See post 19 n/t

[RevolutionStartsNow]

30. Agreed

None of this stuff was done in isolation by the Brits. Complicity all around.

[Tinoire]

19. "many dark actors playing games" =

CFR
Bilderbergers
Trilateral Commission
Illuminati
Carlyle

All of the stories that have been exploding this week are ALL related to the goals of the first three organizations. The 4th group is just a loose cast of actors and the 5th is no more than their investment house.

PNAC, AEI, the Energy papers are just means to their aims. The DLC is closely tied to PNAC and AEI- Hedda Foil and Stephanie and a few others here at DU did some amazing research on PNAC, AEI and their relationship with the DLC. Clinton, our hero President was CFR which is why we saw the groundwork (first draft of Homeland Security, NAFTA, WTO, case-laying for the attack on Iraq) laid under him no matter how reluctant he was about implementing certain aspects of the plan (he REFUSED to go to war with Iraq on manufactured evidence which is why we saw him humiliated in front of the world over something as ludicrous as a blow-job). Manufactured evidence for this war coming straight from the neo-cons and the OSP branch in Ariel Sharon's office. All smoking guns. When are we going to wake up and rock this perversion? If we, the Democratic Party and Independents, Progressives and Greens don't wake up and band together now to expose the reptiles- wherever they are, we are lost- finished.
And not just us and our party but the world itself. We are on the brink of George Bush I's New World Order with FULL COMPLICITY from the G-8 world leaders. Will we wake/act in time to stop it? So much is obscured by their smoke and mirrors!

Read these three threads and start connecting the even bigger dots!

This is one HELL of a rabbit hole!

"The spies who pushed for war"
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=18394&mesg_id=18394&listing_type=search

This smoking gun ties right in to the thread about the Klayman papers
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=20394


and the Enron, Iraq, Cheney and the California Energy Swindle
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=64416&mesg_id=64416&page=

[indictrichardperle]

23. Tin, that is a salient point

Clinton was impeached for refusing to go to war with Iraq. Has anyone forgotten the strange trial balloon of Sandy Berger and Albright on OSU's campus where they argued for an invasion of Iraq ? They were laughed off the stage, and Clinton refused to pursue it any further.

Clinton stated in his conversations with Lewinski, that their phone-lines were being tapped by another government. The people behind Clinton's impeachment, were indeed the neo-cons and PNAC. Lucianne Goldberg....the whole cast of characters.....it was pretty much a coup.

[Tinoire]

58. Trial balloon of Sandy Berger & Albright on OSU's campus invasion of Iraq

Please refresh my memory. I am on the warpath right now against criminals like Madeleine Albright. I wasn't paying enough attention to jack-shit at the time because I had a life back then! The name Sandy Berger only rings a vague bell and I have little idea what you're talking about.

This entire thing reeks and that they all knew about it. What I am discovering is that the Democratic Leadership was aware and did not stop this. The DLC also was in on this because they were totally signed on to the PNAC agenda and enabled it.

So Clinton was DLC and bombed Iraq daily during his entire 8 years but that wasn't enough for them so they sent in the big boys to black-mail him into doing it and he still refused! Clinton was TOO intelligent to play along with such a ridiculous plan based on NO evidence.

I am disillusioned with Clinton for being DLC and CFR but I am also very proud of him. He allowed them to publicly humiliate him on international television over a blow-job rather than give in and go to war with Iraq on their manufactured charges.

No such scruples on Bush's part though- at the thought of all that oil, he played right into their hands- not caring about ANYTHING but that oil. Not caring that his own advisors were manufacturing all the "evidence" he needed in cahoots with the OSP in Sharon's office.

[indictrichardperle]

60. Albright and Sandy Berger went to Ohio State

with about 20,000 locals and students in attendance. It was broadcast live on CNN, with Bernie Shaw as the moderator.

They called for a WAR on Iraq, for no apparent reason. The crowd boo-ed and hissed. Shaw had to take the microphone and try to quiet the crowd several times. It was an embarassment and a fiasco. The clinton administration never again brought up an invasion of Iraq. He did bomb them to get the PNAC crowd off his back, but that was it. You know the rest of the story.....

It happened right before the Monica scandal IIRC, google it.

[Tinoire]

63. Oh God. They were so open about it! HERE IS WHY DEMS LOST 2000!

Unfuckingbelievable! And then people will blame Al Gore's loss on Nader? HERE ARE THE TYPE OF VOTERS GORE AND THE DEMS HAVE LOST!!!!!!!!!!

(Excerpt)
Clinton Administration officials attempting to make the case for military action against Iraq were shouted down at two Midwestern campuses in late February. Evoking memories of the 1960s, protestors jeered cabinet members with profanity and derisive chants.

At Ohio State University, a media-staged international "town-meeting" went sour when activists pelted government officials with obscenity-laced interruptions. Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, Secretary of Defense William Cohen, and National Security Advisor Sandy Berger were at times barely audible and incapable of completing sentences due to yells of "racist," "murderer," and "liar."

http://www.academia.org/campus_reports/1998/march_1998_3.html

******************

Secretary of State Madeleine Albright, Defense Secretary William Cohen and National Security Adviser Sandy Berger were interrupted repeatedly with loud heckling, boos, catcalls and occasional obscenities from audience members in the rafters. One person was arrested. Shouts of protest occasionally were met with louder chants of support, and at times the situation got so out of hand that CNN was forced to cut to a commercial.

Some of the wildest exchanges occurred off-camera and during commercial breaks. Rick Theis, who got into a heated face-to-face shouting match with CNN anchor Bernard Shaw during a break, was hauled off the arena floor by security. Theis -- who said the United States has failed to make a case for attacking Iraq -- accused CNN of trying to shut him up and called the event a sham.. "The president has said this action won't get rid of Saddam nor his weapons of mass destruction," he said. "All we're doing is sending a message. And I don't want to send a message with the blood of Iraqi children."

<snip>

"Tell them about the oil," someone shouted. "World War I, World War II, we don't need World War III," yelled another.

<snip>

Those questioning the officials wanted to know how the United States would handle retaliation by Iraq or why there are different standards of justice for countries around the world. Often, their questions went unanswered. "How many will die?" someone shouted from the rafters. Estimates have put the number of Iraqi civilians likely to die in an attack by the United States at close to 100,000. Albright said: "I'll make a bet that we care more about the Iraqi people than Saddam Hussein does."

<snip>

http://members.aol.com/mwpress/report5.html (no copyright- request to distribute)





--------------
02-19-98

<snip>

Albright said the goal of the meeting was to "explain the policy ramifications" of the Iraqi situation.

<snip>

The discussion was interrupted early and often. Protesters began chanting anti-war slogans during Albright's opening comments and continued through much of the debate.

<snip>

Berger said the aim of a possible airstrike would be twofold: to diminish Saddam Hussein's weapons and reduce the threat to Iraq's neighbors.

"We will send a clear message to would-be tyrants and terrorists that we will do what is necessary to protect our freedom," Berger said.

Albright said Iraq will not easily recover from airstrikes if they occur.

<snip>

http://www.pub.umich.edu/daily/1998/feb/02-19-98/news/news1.html

------------------

Some lawmakers insist Clinton set war date

WASHINGTON - Sen. John McCain said it's time for President Clinton to set a deadline for Saddam Hussein to back down or face U.S. military might. Other lawmakers insisted Sunday the president not act without a vote of support from Congress, which is on vacation next week.

<snip>

He said on ''Fox News Sunday'' that the current standoff - threats by the United States to use force unless Hussein gives unconditional access to U.N. weapons inspectors - gives Iraqi President Hussein an ''equal place in the world forum'' and ''continues to erode our credibility.''
<snip>
http://thepost.baker.ohiou.edu/archives/021698/briefly.html

[indictrichardperle]

64. good find Tin, everyone should read that

It demonstrates PNAC was at work, and why Clinton was impeached.

And it really makes Bill Clinton a HERO, someone who had the courage to suffer smear and impeachment, rather than wage an illegal war killing tens of thousands.

McCain is a neo-con asset and a real piece of crap.

[peekaloo]

70. Excellent post(s) Tinoire

:toast:

[TheBigGuy]

75. I remember that! That was sort of a big deal...

....I seem to recall it was more about the Kosovo thing, though.

[peacetalksforall]

77. How about calling it

a non-corporal assassination?

[Cooley Hurd]

21. He probably wasn't suicidal - if so he would've left SOME clue...

...at least a note, or some indication to a loved one that he was in emotional pain.

This man was murdered (suicided, in BFEE parlance)...

[foo_bar]

28. most don't leave a note

I mean there's a lot of reasons to be paranoid, but "lack of suicide note" and "a microbiologist would've used Ebola!" aren't among them. I recall a renowned allergist in Newton, MA who killed his wife. Cause of death... anaphylaxis? Nope, sledgehammer.

[Cooley Hurd]

43. Most do, a minority don't...

...trust me, I've done the research...

[Frontier]

45. It drives me crazy...

...when people say that. Instead of us just blindly trusting, can you provide a link to your source?

[Frontier]

78. I believe alg0912

For completeness, alg sent me a private message with some additional information and his opinion seems to be the more "proven" of the two.

[CaptainMidnight]

22. dark actors playing games???

Maybe he'd been watching too much Classic Sports Channel.

Maybe he was referring to a re-run of Robert "Benson" Guillame competing in the obstacle course on Battle of The Network Stars...

Captain Mike

[FlaGranny]

24. Yep,

and maybe he just is hallucinating that he's dead.

[GermanDJ]

25. A reliable source?

I had a look at the ananova-website, because usually I check if the source of news I am about to spread :-) is reliable.
And I must say, ananova.com does not look like a very legitimate source to me. They even have an own section called "corrections", where they list errors in their own reporting.

Does anyone have experiences with this service? Were they reliable in the past?

Peace, folks!

[enki23]

27. "dark actors playing games?"

did he have a history of delusions? it's not impossible that he *was* being fucked with, but it's also not impossible that he was a bit paranoid. hell, it could have been both. all i know is the language smells a bit funny, "dark actors" and all. maybe he was having a psychotic episode?

[Room101]

29. They showed the his friend and the email on t.v. i think BBC

WTF is going on?

[Rose Siding]

31. The e-mail was to a JUDY MILLER

This couldn't be Judith Miller, NYT, could it?
I googled 'dark actors playing games' to try to find out who wrote this story and look:

SUICIDE scientist Dr David Kelly warned a friend that "dark actors" were working against him just hours before his death.

Dr Kelly revealed his fears shortly before killing himself after being dragged into the row over the Government's justification for war in Iraq.

In an email to American author Judy Miller, sent just before he left his home for the last time, he referred to "many dark actors playing games".

But, according to Miller, Dr Kelly gave no indication he was depressed or planning to take his own life.

He told her he would wait "until the end of the week" before deciding his next move following his traumatic appearance before a House of Commons select committee.

Yesterday, Miller said she believed the "dark forces" Dr Kelly was referring to were in the secret services and Ministry of Defence.

more................

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/content_objectid=13195970_method=full_siteid=86024_headline=-DARK-ACTORS-PLAYING-GAMES-name_page.html

edit- It is her- he helped "Judy Miller" write a book on bio-terrorism. Miller wrote about that and Miller was embedded in Iraq bossing around the unit she was with and getting all her Chalabi stories cleared.

[teryang]

35. With friends like that....

...thanks for the info.

[NYC]

54. Does Murdoch own the Sunday Mail?

Note this sentence: "Dr. Kelly revealed his fears shortly before killing himself..."

This case has yet to be investigated.

[Rose Siding]

57. I did notice that

There's also a blub that tells Kelly was one who beleived Saddam was a real threat. Gets pretty convoluted.

[Harrumph]

32. My questions would be about the pills.

Does this pain-killer need a prescription?

If so whose Rx was it and where was it kept, etc? Also, if not a prescribed medication where and when was it purchased and by whom?

How many in original package and how many were taken?

Many questions surround this 'suicide' and these are just a few of the questions spinning around in my head.

[Nottingham]

33. Sounds like he was killed!

Oh the British have a helluva MEss here!:bounce:

[Frontier]

34. Psychology and Physiology of Suicide

Just so that everyone is informed.

Psychology: People who attempt suicide by taking a few pills and then hanging out at home with their families are for the most part actually just looking for help. (I had a good friend in high school that went through that exact scenario.)

People who are after success with pills eat them and then go into hiding, like in or near the woods like Kelly. They also normally exhibit overkill behavior; i.e. they take multiple kinds of pills or do pills and wrist mutilation like Kelly.

In many cases there are no notes, just clues that family members don't take note of until its too late. Kelly did speak to his wife about being "deeply unhappy" because of what was going on.

Tom Mangold, a television journalist and close friend, said he had spoken to Dr Kelly's wife Janice this morning.

She had said her husband was deeply unhappy and furious at how events had unfurled.

Mr Mangold told ITV News: "She told me he had been under considerable stress, that he was very very angry about what had happened at the committee, that he wasn't well, that he had been to a safe house, he hadn't liked that, he wanted to come home.
(full story)

Physiology: Speaking of mutilation, non professional wrist cutters (people who haven't done it before) quite frequently only cut one wrist. The main reason is because people that don't know better cut horizontally, destroying nerves and tendons required to hold a blade. So once they use -- for example -- their right hand to cut their left wrist, the left hand can no longer hold the blade to do the right wrist.

People taking pills also frequently do not finish the bottle. It isn't as easy as one might imagine to swallow an _entire_ bottle of sleeping pills. These aren't skittles, after all.

There will definitely be a serious investigation, and if someone did this to Mr. Kelly, there's a high chance they will be caught.

Regardless, may he rest in peace and my thoughts go out to his surviving family. Such a tragic end to an apperently brilliant life.

[joeunderdog]

39. Why leave the body to be found? Why not a "disappearance"?

If the Brits truly investigate this--and I think they'll do it more legit than the US would--then the cause of death will be found. If it's murder, then why leave the body as evidence? Surely, they don't think that they could fool a medical examiner about a phony wrist slashing of a figure of this magnitude. This was no willy-nilly job, so what was the purpose of leaving the body? Sending a message? What message?

[Frontier]

42. I agree 100% Joe

n/t

[jeanmarc]

62. Perhaps to keep him quiet AND to embarrass Blair

Two birds with one stone, perhaps?

[paulthompson]

36. More links

Here's a link to the Sunday Mail, which has the screaming headline "Dark Actors Playing Games":

http://www.sundaymail.co.uk/news/content_objectid=13195970_method=full_siteid=86024_headline=-DARK-ACTORS-PLAYING-GAMES-name_page.html

It explicitly suggests the "dark actors" are British intelligence agents.

By comparison, look at the New York Times article on the same thing:

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/20/international/worldspecial/20KELL.html

From the very headline on down, "Blair Calls Weapons Expert's Suicide a Tragedy," it is assumed that his death was a suicide. The "dark forces" quote is buried as an aside near the end of the article. This is despite the fact that the e-mail mentioning that quote was to a New York Times reporter, none other than the highly controversial Judith Miller! Small world! You may recall that she has been outed by the Washington Post lately for being closely tied to the Defense Dept., and for being behind most of the false stories about Iraqi WMD. She's admitted that her only source for these stories has been the Defense Dept.'s would-be Iraqi puppet (and convicted felon) Ahmed Chalabi.

British police have cautioned that it's too soon to speculate on the cause of death, and foul play cannot be ruled out:

http://www.sundaytimes.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,7034,6779813%255E948,00.html

But of course for the lapdog US press, suicide can be the only explanation. It's so common to disguise a murder by trying to make it look like a suicide.

[Frontier]

38. Not that common

Paul, The fake suicide murder isn't common at all.

Most murders are performed with such malice that there can be no doubt that a human being could not have done such a thing to themself. (see: Nichole Simpson, or 9/11 victims)

This is, of course, not to say it doesn't happen, because it does. Its just rare.

Anyway, this is going to be such a high profile case with many watchful eyes that, in the end, if they say its a suicide there will only be 3 options.

1- It was a suicide.
2- The people who faked it were extreme pros and very lucky, because there are always clues.

or
3- The entire investigative team is on the take.

I think 3 is highly unlikely which would leave us with 1 or 2. In the end we'll have to decide by the evidence.

[paulthompson]

47. fake suicide?

I'm not speaking of the typical crime of passion. Clearly, his "dark actors playing games" comment, which one newspaper says means intelligence agencies, would make intelligence agencies the top suspects for his murder (most likely British intelligence), if he was murdered.

And needless to say, those guys are professionals, and statistics of what typical murders are like (or what typical suicides are like) would go right out the window. Subterfuge and deception is the name of their game. Look at the head of the Mossad, who last year said all of the Mossad's greatest actions, including their best one of all, have gone completely undetected and unknown.

So I would say, of your choices, 2 is most likely, and if so, the odds of anyone being caught are extremely low, even if sloppy clues have been left behind. It would be a fox guarding the henhouse situation where the intelligence agencies would do everything they could to keep the case "unsolved."

[lightbulb]

50. Not that common... How would one know?

A successfull "fake suicide murder" is not going to be considered a murder, so how can you possibly know how commonly it gets pulled off? Hmmmm...

Regarding point number 3, one must factor in the combined influence that chain of command and a deep fear for one's life (and those of their loved ones) has on an any individual involved in an investigation of this type. Instilling mortal terror throughout the ranks is a great way to control the outcome of any investigation.

"Treason doth never prosper: what's the reason? Why if it prosper, none dare call it treason."

-Ovid

[Rex]

40. Yup, that's our lovely American press!

If the govt tells em it's a suicide then, by dam, it's a suicide! No further questions yer honor. Case closed.

[paulthompson]

41. Some wild speculation

I'm trying to figure out the Judith Miller connection here. Of course, it's open knowledge by now that she is essentially a minion for Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Perle and that whole bunch. See for instance,

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn?pagename=article&node=&contentId=A28385-2003Jun24¬Found=true

Could it be that the contents of his "dark forces" email were immediately forwarded to Rumsfeld et al, who decided to immediately send in a "clean up crew" to get rid of him before he said anything more publicly? Does he say more in the rest of the email to Miller than could be explosive? He was so deeply tied into these intelligence agencies that it would be a piece of cake to set up a secret meeting with him, and say to him, tell your wife you're going on a walk, we'll meet you at such and such a place near your house so we can have total secrecy.

It seems to me the timing of his death was very far from ideal, coming right on the heels of Blair's triumphant speech to Congress for instance, so if he was offed there must have been some event to force the murderers to act immediately. Perhaps it was what he was saying to people in these emails he sent the day of his death?

At the very least, certainly Kelly was no fool and could read the newspaper, and so knew that by sending the "dark forces" email to Miller, he was sending that message directly to the heart of the dark forces themselves (US branch, at least).

[Frontier]

44. The famous Paul Thompson

Hey Paul, just realized who you are. You're a genuine conspiracy theorist aren't you?

And I honestly mean that in a positive sense. Even if I don't always agree with your final analysis, you find some darn interesting information.

Anyway, you might be interested in my immediate reaction to this story. I heard about it quite early because I was on the phone with co-workers in the UK when the body was discovered.

Here's what I posted at another board. (not sure if I have latest breaking news privys here yet?)

I'm going to resist the urge to go conspiracy theory here, but there's a missing British weapons expert, controversial forged uranium documents and an unidentified body. This is the formula for the opening of a Clancy novel.

One of the things I really don't understand about this story is why they haven't positively determined if the discovered body is that of Dr. Kelly. He's a very well known public figure with surviving family members and no one can ID him?

[paulthompson]

49. Not a conspiracy theorist by nature

Not "famous," either. But ever since Bush came to power there's been so much stuff that points in the "conspiracy theory" direction, that I find it hard to avoid coming to those kinds of conclusions.

Take this Kelly case. As you say, it seems totally like some kind of Tom Clancy novel. If anyone can look at this case right now and say, "Oh yeah, suicide for sure, case closed," then they're either brainwashed or brain dead. Unfortunately, that seems to describe most journalists these days. :(

[indictrichardperle]

53. Good thoughts Paul

I think this has to be viewed through the prism, that Mr Kelly's demise is going to end Poodle's political career. He is going to have to step down. For a while now, it has looked as if some of the machinations in the US, were almost purposely damaging Poodle.

I think Poodle as PM is incapable of getting the British people to support the US in any future aggressive war, possibly even diplomatically at the UN.

Poodle was used and is no longer useful. The dark forces responsible for Mr Kelly, also brought down Poodle's govt.

[Frontier]

61. Why would Blair have to step down?

I don't quite get what would make him have to step down after this? Unless, of course, a member of his administration is involved in the death. In which case, he's much bigger problems than loosing his job.

[NYC]

56. Why is Blair calling this suicide when it has yet to be investigated?

Isn't he influencing the jury pool, so to speak?

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/07/20/international/worldspecial/20KELL.html

"Blair Calls Weapons Expert's Suicide a Tragedy"

[goforit]

71. It looks like kelly's wife mentioned suicide before Blair ,but don't know

Hmmmmm......

Yes this has been an anxious announcement on his part,
as if he is gleeing about it.

These men certainly salivating over who they want to murder
next. They are addicted and are drowning in their greed and blood lust.

[Nambe]

83. Spin before it's time.

no doubt.

[jos]

65. N.Y. Times

They're back in their "Warren Commission can do no wrong" mode. How can they call it a suicide when that hasn't been definitively determined yet?:crazy:

[0007]

46. This just doesn't look like suicide -

....and who's to say that this can't be covered up? It's been done before, 'eh?

I also believe Hatfield's so called suicide was murder.

[Rex]

48. No, it doesn't look like a suicide.

From what I've read, he seemed to be angry and felt betrayed. Now I'm sure he was depressed somewhat at the whole situation, but it seems to be that he had revenge more on his mind than suicide. I know that when I'm pissed off at someone, the last thing I think about is offing myself.

[foo_bar]

52. suicide doesn't happen the way you'd imagine it

as nobody can testify.

Barring colonel mustard with a candelabra, the difference between homicide and suicide here is semantic. The folks who jumped off the World Trade Center were technically suicidal even though they were 100% correct. Depression and acts of congress can both seem like burning buildings more painlessly escaped with gravity.

[dArKeR]

51. Bush declares JFK a suicide. I'm sure we can trust Blair on this!

http://darker0darker.tripod.com/

[Tinoire]

59. Hahhaaa I LOVE it!

[goforit]

74. Those were outstanding photos of a hero named Kelly!

Thanks for putting this episode in pictures!

Great work!!!

[goforit]

55. We will find those murderous thugs!!!

You just wait!!!

[Andy_Stephenson]

66. I want to know what else Kelly knew

Strange Cluster Of Microbiologists'
Deaths Under The Microscope
By Alanna Mitchell, Simon Cooper, and Carolyn Abraham
Compiled by Alanna Mitchell
The Globe and Mail
5-4-2

It's a tale only the best conspiracy theorist could dream up.

Eleven microbiologists mysteriously dead over the span of just five months. Some of them world leaders in developing weapons-grade biological plagues. Others the best in figuring out how to stop millions from dying because of biological weapons. Still others, experts in the theory of bioterrorism.

Throw in a few Russian defectors, a few nervy U.S. biotech companies, a deranged assassin or two, a bit of Elvis, a couple of Satanists, a subtle hint of espionage, a big whack of imagination, and the plot is complete, if a bit reminiscent of James Bond.

The first three died in the space of just over a week in November. Benito Que, 52, was an expert in infectious diseases and cellular biology at the Miami Medical School. Police originally suspected that he had been beaten on Nov. 12 in a carjacking in the medical school's parking lot. Strangely enough, though, his body showed no signs of a beating. Doctors then began to suspect a stroke.

Just four days after Dr. Que fell unconscious came the mysterious disappearance of Don Wiley, 57, one of the foremost microbiologists in the United States. Dr. Wiley, of the Howard Hughes Medical Institute at Harvard University, was an expert on how the immune system responds to viral attacks such as the classic doomsday plagues of HIV, ebola and influenza.

http://www.rense.com/general24/exk.htm

[Andy_Stephenson]

68. This is interesting

http://mindprod.com/asbestos.html

[Tinoire]

72. Awesome table! Bookmarked this!

The Curious Asbestos Connection
The following table contains all state and federal American politicians killed in plane crashes since 1980, and a few others who suffered similar incidents.


Wellstone... WR Grace & Monsanto.... Interesting... I've bookmarked this table. Will come in very handy! THanks

[Tinoire]

73. This has been on much more than Rense and is disturbing

I believe that 17 in all had been knocked off this last year. There's stuff in the archives about the 'curious deaths' of all these leading microbiologists.

One even 'locked himself' in a freezer and froze to death. Yeah, right :eyes:

[FlaGranny]

81. Am I missing something?

I didn't see connections to asbestos made to all these politicians. Are all of them connected to asbestos cases? I saw no links connecting them. I'm not totally discounting it, but if this guy has links or proof of these connections, I wish he would post them. He's throwing a very large blanket without backup information, at least that I was able to see.

Edit: Sorry, this was in response to post #68, not 66.

[Tinoire]

85. List/articles re Missing / Dead Scientists

can be found here http://www.apfn.org/apfn/scientists.htm

[Stephanie]

67. Can someone re-cap the events that lead up to this?

I haven't followed it very closely. I think Kelly was suspected of leaking some information to a journalist named Gilligan - I don't know what type of information it was or anything much beyond that except that he just testified before a committee.

Thanks!

[teryang]

76. Something odd about the Miller email

Kelly was examined in detail concerning the reason why he would confer with Gilligan which was construed as engaging in a press conference hostile to British national policy goals when he stated it was the MOD policy to only engage in authorized press conferences. Kelly felt he was debriefing Gilligan rather than being interviewed. He portrays himself as true blue and denies that he is the source of unpatriotic commentary on the WMD issue, yet admits that he did discuss such subjects with Gilligan but didn't see how his comments could be interpreted the way they appeared in the press. Apparently his reputation was that he had been loyal to the anti Iraq insider cause. Yet now he is impugned as an enemy of the empire.

Then after this very difficult public excoriation the first thing he does is get on the email to report to Judith Miller? What the fuck is up with that? I'm sure the order went down to kill him at that point because he evidently didn't get the profound message delivered by parliamentary spokesmen for the realm. When Miller reports back to her handler that he is still leaking, his fate is cast.

[nolabels]

79. Sounds to me like they are getting a little too close to the heat

This is getting quite interesting

[TolstoyAndy]

80. Like Cliff Baxter

This reminds me of Enron, where functionary scumbag Cliff Baxter may have been considering coming clean about the companies activities, and was inquiring into getting a bodyguard.

But before any of that could happen, while still making plans for the future, Baxter was overcome by emotion and had to take a drive in the middle of the night and shoot himself in the head.

[Nottingham]

82. I agree Kelly sounds like the Cliff Baxter case! Whistleblowers DIE!

thats the fact

Suicide seems the symptom for telling the TRUTH that doesn't sound right! :bounce:

[Pert_UK]

86. Suicide Note, or lack thereof...

Firstly, can I just mention that my condolences go to his family and friends and my sympathy goes to the man himself.

Secondly, can I also say that I am F*CKING TERRIFIED about this. If this was a politically sanctioned murder then it represents the most worrying shift in policy. Nobody would be foolish enough to claim that the government would never dispose of someone awkward, but this is a whole new ballgame. Either somebody in the secret services has taken the gloves off and it's open season on anyone perceived as dangerous, or else they've decided that a public message must be given to anyone else who's thinking of helping a journalist.

Thirdly, my personal suspicion is that this poor guy, unused to handling either politicians or the media, uwisely met with the BBC and let slip a few things he shouldn't. The BBC journalist then took a few details and blew them out of proportion into the biggest story in months. Dr Kelly, who probably hadn't handed over very much info, feels honour bound to tell his superiors and gets into a shedload of trouble for it. Through no fault of his own, he is publicly proclaimed to be a mole and is thrown to the lions.

Fourthly - I'm not able to get inside the head of anyone contemplating suicide, but if you thought that either:

a) you'd unwittingly betrayed your country
b) you hadn't done anything wrong but your professional life was over
c) your comments had been misinterpreted and used for the wrong reasons
d) you were being made a scapegoat
e) you had actually made a big mistake and only just realised it
f) anything else that fits this situation

wouldn't you leave a note? You'd either want to shout out against the injustice you've suffered, apologise for your foolish mistake or set the record straight. You'd want to let your family know that you were sorry for your error, wouldn't you?

So...if it was suicide, either the note was made to disappear because it contained unpalatable truths OR it will resurface at some point and add another twist to the saga. If there was no note then I am deeply suspicious - he planned the suicide well enough to take pills and a knife with him on his walk, so why not a note?

[nolabels]

87. Here let me send this little E-mail note from our corporate media

A link from that other thread floating around this forum

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/20/iraq/main564106.shtml
Ex-Spies: CIA Workers Outraged
(snip)
A British weapons expert apparently killed himself, sending the government of Prime Minister Tony Blair deeper into crisis. David Kelly had been put uncomfortably in the spotlight as British officials have been trying to find someone to blame for accusations they hyped intelligence about Iraq's weapons threat. Polls show the British public is losing faith in Blair with a majority feeling they were misled about Iraqi weapons of mass destruction, reports CBS News Correspondent Richard Roth (snip)

[Tinoire]

88. Coincidence with 9-11/economic warning from Russia? CFR -US economic crash

This came to mind because of something that jogged my mind in another thread... There was another scientist (Economic Scientist) who warned of shadow politics and groups.

The Russians ever warned about 9-11... when, less than 2 months before 9-11, Dr. Tatyana Koryagina (senior research fellow in the Institute of Macroeconomic Researches subordinated to the Russian Ministry of Economic Development (Minekonom)), warned the Russian Duma to cash out all their dollars immediately. "The main theme of the Duma hearings was the rapidly approaching economic crash of the United States." A google on Tatyana Koryagina (double alt spelling Tatiana Korjagina) still brings up some info.

----
Tatyana Koryagina made a statement at the end of hearings – as a Russian expert in the shadow economy, shadow politics and conspirology.

She is a senior research fellow in the Institute of Macroeconomic Researches subordinated to the Russian Ministry of Economic Development (Minekonom). The main theme of the Duma hearings was the rapidly approaching economic crash of the United States. (FYI- kooks do not brief the Russian DUMA!)


-----

Excerpt w/ partial interview:

The hearings focused on preparing recommendations for President Putin as to what Russia should to do to soften the consequences of this coming catastrophe.

Pravda also detailed its own interview with Dr. Koryagina.

Here is an excerpt:

Pravda: All the participants at the hearings stated that America is a huge financial pyramid which will crash soon. Still, it is hard to understand how this could happen in the first and richest country of the world – without a war, without missile or bomb strikes?

Koryagina: Besides bombs and missiles, there are other kinds of weaponry, much more destructive ones. ...

Pravda: Well, economic theory. But how it is possible for you to give an exact date – August 19?

Koryagina: The U.S. is engaged in a mortal economic game. The known history of civilization is merely the visible part of the iceberg. There is a shadow economy, shadow politics and also a shadow history, known to conspirologists. There are forces acting in the world, unstoppable for countries and even continents.

Pravda: Just these forces intend to smash America on August 19?

Koryagina: There are international "super-state" and "super-government" groups. In accordance with tradition, the mystical and religious components play extremely important roles in human history. One must take into account the shadow economy, shadow politics and the religious component, while predicting the development of the present financial situation.

Pravda: Still, I don't understand what could be done to this giant country , whose budget is calculated in the trillions of dollars.

Koryagina: It is possible to do anything to the U.S. ... whose total debt has reached $26 trillion. Generally, the Western economy is at the boiling point now. Shadow financial actives of $300 trillion are hanging over the planet. At any moment, they could fall on any stock exchange and cause panic and crash. The recent crisis in Southeast Asia, which touched Russia, was a rehearsal.

Pravda: What is the sense of smashing just America?

Koryagina: The U.S. has been chosen as the object of financial attack because the financial center of the planet is located there. The effect will be maximal. The strike waves of economic crisis will spread over the planet instantly and will remind us of the blast of a huge nuclear bomb.

<snip>

Koryagina: Recommendations, compiled by the Duma Commission of Economic Politics after the recent Duma hearings, offer instruction on what should be done to escape the consequences of a world crisis inspired by a financial catastrophe in the U.S. This document will be sent – or has already been sent – to President Putin.

Pravda: What should Russian citizens do?

Koryagina: They should start changing their dollars for rubles. President Putin and the Russian Central Bank are already taking the necessary healthy measures. There are high chances that after 19 August the ruble will become a very good currency.

Pravda: Why 19 August, say, and not the 21st?

Koryagina: Some fluctuation in this date is possible. Serious forces are acting against THOSE WHO ARE NOW PREPARING THE ATTACK ON THE UNITED STATES . August, with very high probability, will bring the financial catastrophe to the U.S. ... The last 10 days of August have especial importance from a religious-sensible point of view.

<snip>

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/9/16/103951.shtml (And yes, the original article was carried in Pravda, News max is not the source)

[ReadTomPaine]

89. The third partner in war...

If you believe that Dr. David Kelly was murdered the main question you should be asking is who would benefit the most from his death and who would be the most damaged politically. Remember what Kelly was doing and what his expertise was – a WMD expert and most importantly one who understood all the facts regarding the faulty dossier, including those Nigerian forgeries. Even with Kelly’s leaks, neither the USA nor the UK had much to gain by his death and it’s been shown that UK credibility has taken a huge hit on this matter while few Americans seem to care. Who has the most to gain, then? Consider this- what if the *third* senior party to support this war, Israel, had been the unnamed and still highly protected creator of those forged documents. Can you imagine the uproar if it were discovered that Sharon’s government fabricated evidence that was directly used to start a Middle Eastern war? Also of primary importance is the Blair labor government’s moderating liberal influence with the US regarding the dispensation of Palestine. Of the three parties involved, it’s the ruling Likud party in Israel that has the best vested interest in removing the UK’s influence in this affair. Killing Dr. Kelly is a very effective way to discredit Blair and eliminate his pull in those circles, and what better time to do it then when he’s off playing senior statesman in Washington? Sharon himself recently said two very revealing things. Firstly he explicitly warned Blair that Britain should stay out of the business of influencing the USA and others regarding Israel’s hawkish policies or the situation might “blow up in his face” and secondly he admitted recently that Israel would be sending agents abroad, even to countries of his erstwhile allies, and that assassination on this foreign soil would be an acceptable means of dealing with threats to his country. Taken together, these are strong indicators that if Dr Kelly was indeed murdered, it was by Israeli agents under Likud orders.