125 Christian Meeting Halls in China Shut

[Socialist Christian]

:cry: This one hits home. They are good people, astoundingly less hypocritical than ours. Please don't confuse them with american Christians. While i consider myself A Jesus Christ follower and not a Christian in the orangized manner, they deserve to worship freely they have no power. They meet underground. This is Fucking Bullshit that we trade and are basically fucking allies with China but take all these steps agaisnt Cuba. Why doesnt he liberate china? i forgot they have a TRUE millitary, and 3 loafs of bread.
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=516&ncid=721&e=10&u=/ap/20031120/ap_on_re_as/china_churches

BEIJING - Authorities in an east China province have sealed off 125 Christian gathering places since July, cutting off 3,000 believers from their places of worship, a human rights organization said Thursday.



The makeshift churches in Jiangsu province were ordered closed by local officials seeking to crack down on what they deem to be underground religious activity, the Hong Kong-based Information Center for Human Rights and Democracy said.


Officials in the public security bureaus of Suqian city, Danyang city and Xushui County — where the reported church closures took place — could not be reached for comment late Thursday.


China only allows religious worship in state-sponsored churches, temples and mosques, and considers any independent organization to be a threat to communist rule.

[neuvocat]

1. Would you believe

that they want to set up missions here in the U.S.?

Its true.

[loudnclear]

26. Some Christian missions are really needed in the US to bring "real"

Christianity to America.

But this move, sad as it is, is indicative of the watershed that Bush crossed when he okayed pre-emptive invasion of Iraq. Now every nation will feel free to do whatever they deem necessary to protect their own way of life and especially to protect themselves from western influences.

[neuvocat]

30. Bush ignored his own church

after it actively pursued to advise him on going after Iraq.

I think they wanted to tell him not to do it, so that's why he shut them out.

[pdove]

62. Chinese people still vividly remember colonization by Japan and the West.

Christian missionary too often has untold missions.
Just as we persecutes communists then, they have a right to
maintain their law and order. FLG is considered as a
evil religion in China, of course we are glad to host its leader
as a PR weapon.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Socialist Christian]

4. These people are in the 1 percentile, they have no power to cause any

problems, they are mostly pacifist with a small contigent involved in underground anti communist activity. The are moderate very moderate

[mumon]

13. While I sympathize with many people, you SHOULD be aware

that many of these groups are infiltrated by US right-wing Christian groups, and supplied by them, and encouraged by them.

They basically are people that - in a troubled time in their lives- are being exploited by undercover "missionaries" from the US wanting to "share the true Jesus" with them.

Many of the Chinese Christians don't understand how they're being played in this- by both sides.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

23. wrong addressee, sorry. n/t

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

15. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Character Assassin]

37. How about backing up that particular bit of illogical regurgitant?

Maybe he should have said most of the problems in the last ten centuries. Then he'd probably be correct.

Step on up to the podium, Maestro, and let's see what you can do.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

25. Tell me. Why is Communism evil?

[Socialist Christian]

28. Most quote on quote Christians consider it evil because

its an atheist anti capitalist movement. THIS IS NOT I REPEAT NOT my view, i see it as a philosophy that really isnt implemented in a satisfactory way, and dont think it can be, but in theory it is great, except for i dont think everyone should have the same finishing point but THEY SHOULD have a beginning, i visit www.cpusa.org a lot, they are good people

[Socialist Christian]

7. Check my signature links. <nt>

[Socialist Christian]

8. By the way its FUNDAMENTALIST Christianity thats the problem <nt>

[kixot]

9. What planet did you just fall out of the sky from?

People's liberties are being squashed and you have the gall to say "good"?

You are either a cretin who does not truly believe in democratic principles and has no business in the democratic party or a freeper.

[demdave]

11. And we wonder why people think we are the party against religion

It is always the hate filled anti-religion fools that get the press. :puke:

[QC]

12. Unlike those peace-loving followers

of Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot.

:eyes:

[Socialist Christian]

29. Its easy to say that in retrospect but did u see the potentates they lived

under before?

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. Bigots are responsible for many problems

nt

[DeathvadeR]

64. Dont forget Greed!!!!

[Malva Zebrina]

21. amen

.

[homelandpunk]

80. Christianity 99%, socialism 1%

of all problems

[Character Assassin]

82. Don't let the facts get in the way of your diatribe, Champ

[BurntIceCubeTray]

83. Enjoy Hell Doctor Satan

Just don't try to force it on those that wish to avoid it.

[demnan]

3. It's too bad that

missionaries were sent along the same time as the Opium trade, and that Chinese associate Western European influences with bad influences due to so many of their population becoming hooked on the drugs.

The aftermath of the terrible tragedy of the Opium Wars is what fuels their suspicions, far more than Communism does, I suspect.

[ozone_man]

27. Or maybe it was a good thing.

They learned early.

Many developing countries, especially in South America in the 20th century, have been assaulted by missionaries, like the Summer School of Linguistics (SIL), transcribing native languages to take over their culture. It's a tried and true formula: Transcribe their language, convert them to Christiantity, take their land or natural resources. Evangelists. Nelson Rockefeller was a big one.

For that matter, our own Indians and Canada's Indians were taken over by Christian groups. Jesuits, Anglicans, you name it.

Perhaps the Chinese have seen it coming (like you suggest) and are a bit wary of Christianity. Not saying that I agree with their lack of freedoms or treatment of Tibetans. It's a very different (ancient) culture than ours and we can't impose our thinking on them. But, we are more than happy to export most of out manufacturing jobs over there, so that multinational corporations can try to meet their bottom line.

[Socialist Christian]

31. I feel just as strong about tibet and i would join a liberation movement

if there was one. I would be the first to enlist.

[oneighty]

6. State-Sponsored Churches?

Soon appearing in your very own home town, right down there on Elm Street, U.S. Of A.

WhoooooHoooo

180

[mumon]

14. And again...

the "state sponsored Churches" are a both an evil AND a good.

They DO try to maintain a rigid orthodoxy, and control people's beliefs.

(bad)

They DO try to keep out charlatans and hucksters.

(good)

(Wish they did more of that in this country.)

[Socialist Christian]

16. God. you are RIGHT. If we did that here robertson, falwell, hagee

would be and should be thrown in jail. In germany Seintology is banned, and here fundamentalism should IT HARBORS Terror

[Kellanved]

36. not at all

Religion is free - even in Germany, a land of state-sponsored faith.
Scientology is under limited observation, as some leaders vowed to bring the German state down and take the country over. By that they stepped in the constitutional self-defense clause originally designed to guard against Nazis.

[Socialist Christian]

40. I did a qucick google

A form is banend in Russia and in 1998 they banned it in Greece Its under control in Germany my bad about the confusion.

[ClintonTyree]

10. It's time..............

to invade this godless country and bomb them into Christianity. Thanks, Ann Coulter.

[gratuitous]

17. Whoa, looks like the Chinese hate freedom, too!

I'm absolutely sure that they're next on Chimpy's list, right? Right? Or is there some kind of "evil exemption" for suppliers of slave labor that make overrich white guys richer?

[Muddleoftheroad]

19. Just their government

And it DOES hate freedom.

[gratuitous]

20. That was good enough for Chimpy in Iraq

He and his henchmen have spent a lot of time since the illegal invasion trying to distinguish "good" Iraqis from the bad elements, but they launched the attack for the sake of one bad man anyway.

But I'm sure China will be protected by the slave procurer exemption that allows so many of Chimpy's friends to profit handsomely from reduced labor costs. Not to mention the fact that China actually has the capability to fight back, anathema to Chimpy's imperialistic aims, which are only carried out against nations too poor or too poorly armed to mount a military defense. (This explains Chimpy's failure to take action against North Korea, as well.)

[Socialist Christian]

32. i think he knows better than to mess with that millitary <nt>

[Malva Zebrina]

22. I have read accounts of missionary activity in China

from fundamentalist fanatics. They love to cite how many bibles they have given out. That they concentrated on their own accomplishments told me that they were in some sort of a contest to see who could get the most Chinese people to convert to their particular version and this was to be verified by the numer of bibles they gave out. :eyes:

China has never been a Christian nation-- mostly Buddhist, which I find to be far more compassionate, serene and intelligent than Christianity.

Make no mistake about it LOL, to quote a very infamous American, if the Chinese came here and proselytized Buddhism to the point wnere they became arrogant, pushy and disgusting, as the missionaries do in their country, we would shut them down also--at lest under Bush the Christian we would

[Muddleoftheroad]

24. Never ceases to amaze me

How some folks can rationalize anything bad as long as it is AGAINST people in religion.

[Malva Zebrina]

39. It is not against people in religion

it is against people in religion thinking they have a mission to convert others who have no desire to be converted and are perfectly happy the way they are, even if the way they are is not "Christian". What right do any Christians have to tell others that they are not living a good life and need to believe ina Jesus in order to be saved--and in order to be saved , one must kill others of other religions, like the Iraqi people who are Muslims. Let us take a good long look at the record of Christianity over history. You will hang your head in shame--and they are doing the same in China. Culturally the Chinese have never been advocates of Jesus for thousands of years. They still have survived, and are perfectly fine people as human beings go. They are mostly Buddhist--and so, just leave them alone for crying out loud--your god does not need your help to sell him if he is so powerful. Or does he? Do not corrupt them with Christianity--Buddhism is far more advanced than the militarism of Christianity.

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. Conversion

Spreading the word of your faith is perfectly fine, though it can get you killed in a lot of nations around the world including China. Forcing your faith on others is wrong.

Actually, I have every right to tell you that you are not living a good life and will go to hell. You have every right to tell me to go there now as a result. That's freedom. China ought to try it, but their government would collapse as a result.

[Socialist Christian]

33. I think you are right, FREE TIBET, plus i hate that the fundies are gettin

g there first

[Character Assassin]

35. Historically inaccurate and quite incorrect.

China has never been a Christian nation-- mostly Buddhist

Mostly Confucian, then Taoist, followed by Buddhist.

which I find to be far more compassionate, serene and intelligent than Christianity.

I find them absolutely equal.

Make no mistake about it LOL, to quote a very infamous American, if the Chinese came here and proselytized Buddhism to the point wnere they became arrogant, pushy and disgusting, as the missionaries do in their country, we would shut them down also--at lest under Bush the Christian we would.

Objection! Council is leading the witness. Your above statement implies that missionaries in China are, by default, arrogant, pushy and disgusting.

[Malva Zebrina]

41. Oh

LOL--but all of the evidence points to missionaries being arrogant, pushy and disgusting in most countries that they invade with their bibles that advocate submission of women to men, slavery and other immoral undertakings.

[Character Assassin]

47. That's not a serious answer.

Again, you are making assumptions that don't hold up under scrutiny.

All Christians do not consider or represent either their faith or the Bible in the same way, and it is dishonest to maintain that they do.

[Socialist Christian]

48. There is no difference

The text plainly states (from) Paul that gays are immoral ie condemnned how do you find away around that. Thats why im a Christ Follower, i dont much listen to the apostles or tainted text i read (the gnostic gospels) the books tell you that that cHURCH ISNT THE AWNswer God doesnt live in buildings you must search within yourself. talk about a threat. Thats why im a Socialist Christian a new form, rather than Christian or Christian Socialist

[Character Assassin]

55. Quite easily, but it requires study of the history of the bible

The text plainly states (from) Paul that gays are immoral ie condemnned how do you find away around that.

The bible also says to bury your shit at night because god is walking around and might step in it.

Thats why im a Christ Follower, i dont much listen to the apostles or tainted text i read (the gnostic gospels) the books tell you that that cHURCH ISNT THE AWNswer God doesnt live in buildings you must search within yourself.

Perhaps you've missed it, but the 4 orthodox gospels also tell the careful reader the same thing.

That said, not being a christian myself, the sheer ignorance of many of christianity's adherents (and this is no comment on you, please understand) concerning their holy texts and founders.

[Socialist Christian]

56. The gnostics + the one Christ wrote

speak of philosophy and tolerance. Christ was never aginst Gays he was aginst divorce for anything except adultry but trust me i think that was heavy editing "So your husband beats you and rapes your children" i think thats a divorible offense. Dude i agree with you some of these blind adherants are the worse, the ex drunks who are overly egar brings to mind a episode of the show blind date. If you want to see a better look at the gospels (the ones that arent offical the church banned them) here they are

Christianity and Socialism- Johann Baptist Metz and Jean Pierre Jossua

The Secret teachings of Jesus Marvin W Meyer
(the secret book of james, the gospel of thomas, the BOOK of thomas, the secret book of john, the book of q)

[mumon]

58. Actually it doesn't state that "plainly."

The original Greek has made up words, and is anything but plain. "Elliptical" is more like it, if at all.

[Malva Zebrina]

50. HUH

what scrutiny? Excuse me but does not the bible advocate subjugation of women and slavery? In this country, slavery was touted as being a Christian biblical mandate and it was perfectly fine with the southern ministers who preached in their pulpits the biblical, godly, tradition of slavery was absolute in it's Christian interpretation.

Christian missionaries in China are telling a culture that has traditionally been not Christian for thousands of years, but has been Buddhist or other, that they are wrong!!

That is the epitome of Western arrogance, especially when Christianity has not shown itself to be any better!!

[Muddleoftheroad]

51. Epitome of freedom

Free people can say what they want. The Chinese are not free.

[Character Assassin]

53. Think about what you're saying....

what scrutiny?

The sort of intellectual inquiry I would expect one to have undertook before making foolish, overbroad statements.

Christian missionaries in China are telling a culture that has traditionally been not Christian for thousands of years, but has been Buddhist or other, that they are wrong!!

So what? They don't have to listen, and the topic is a faith, not particularly the whole culture.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that a culture thousands of years old is so frail, so delicate in its sensibilities that it can't take the sheer agony of someone considering a faith commonly practised with it to be untrue? Oh, the horror!

That is the epitome of Western arrogance, especially when Christianity has not shown itself to be any better!!

Spare me the hyperbole. Cultures adopt and adapt in the face of other cultures, and it has absolutely zero to do in this case with arrongance.

Would you prevent science being taught to primitive peoples who believe spirits control everything in the forest because it might upset their culture?

I hope not.

[Malva Zebrina]

59. Well, you may think "so what" when it comes to others as you said

"so what? They don't have to listen, and the topic is a faith, not particularly the whole culture."
This is offensive and arrogant. It is the attitude of the western Christians who say get out of my way, idiots, if you do not want to listen go shut yourself up somewhere else because we, we know it all Christians, have a right to shout about a mythological warlike character such as Jesus, especially since we have the money and the military to lord it over you all, who think this is silly nonsense. LOL

Why on earth do people think they need to sell a god to others? If the god was a powerful as they say, why does he need con, used car sales men to sell him, the suppodedly all powerful , all knowing god, to a people who are just as human and just as deserving as they of living a lovely life as they see fit according to their own parameters?

[Character Assassin]

63. It's not arrogant in the least, and if you're offended that's too bad

It is the attitude of the western Christians who say get out of my way, idiots, if you do not want to listen go shut yourself up somewhere else because we, we know it all Christians, have a right to shout about a mythological warlike character such as Jesus, especially since we have the money and the military to lord it over you all, who think this is silly nonsense. LOL

What on earth are you babbling about? Are missionairies in China currently backed up by troops?

Following your logic, mosques, Hindu temples, etc... should be closed here because, after all, they're not really part of our culture.

Perhaps we should stop selling them Levis as well, since, after all, since they're not traditional Chinese clothing.


Why on earth do people think they need to sell a god to others?

Stupid ones do, but I, unlike you, don't classify all Christians as being monolithic, and realize that there are all sorts of motivations, just like there are all sorts of Christians.

If the god was a powerful as they say, why does he need con men to seel him to a people who are just as human and just as deserving as they of living a lovely life as they see fit according to their own parameters?

There sheer arogance of your own statment above is irony so delicious I can barely stand it.

[Malva Zebrina]

66. hoh

what on earth are you babbling about? Are missionairies in China currently backed up by troops?

This is a "poison the well" attempt to disparage a logical point of view--missionaries in China as I stated from my observation, are more happy about the numbers of bibles they distribute because it adds to their personal indentification of themself as doing somehting good for "Jesus" and something to brag about..it is merely a ego thing and nothing spiritual at all.

and that makes them all feel really good about themself , which is really, really important to many of them who are welfare dependant upon the contributions from the pews back home-

and the sheep back home in the pews on any given Sunday, will praise them until the sun sets for converting the " commie atheists" and contribute more to the missionary welfare in order that the missionaries can eat and live without having to work too hard for it at all, as long as they can keep giving out those bibles.

These people do not have to earn a living anywhere and they have discovered how to bilk the church system --all they have to do is report back to their church the number of bibles they distributed and they will be be sent their monthly allowance while pretending to be spiritual and holy. All in the name of Jesus and they get to travel too!




Missionaries in China are there simply because they percieve the Chinese , who have a thousands of years tradition, perhaps going further back than that of
Christianity, as infidels because they are NOT CHRISTIAN, like the westerners are...


They are there to tell the Chinese that they are wrong god dammit! and they can duly report back home that they did so. And if they convert one of themj, by offering them a piece of bread or a bowl of rice when the infidel and his or her family is starving, they will therefore be assured of a place in heaven next to a god, to play a harp for eternity, and watch the rest of the unconverted be burnt to death below them in the lake of fire==

that's right--they are priveledged to watch the suffering of others be burnt to death while they play their harps in heaven. No one has ever said what else they will do in that heaven--sounds kind of boring to me to be doing nothing for eternity-- watching others, perhaps even members of one's own family, like a son or a daughter, burn forever suffering in some imaginary lake of fire while you watch from on high. LOL. How nice--watch your daughter suffer while you play your harp for eternity being happy everlasting--

Anyway, putting aside the imaginary horrors that the biblical interpretation of heaven has, missionaries are the warts on the congregation that conributes to their livlihood---they should get a real job and leave people to their beliefs.

[Character Assassin]

67. That is most definitely not logical

This is a "poison the well" attempt to disparage a logical point of view--missionaries in China as I stated from my observation, are more happy about the numbers of bibles they distribute because it adds to their personal indentification of themself as doing somehting good for "Jesus" and something to brag about..it is merely a ego thing and nothing spiritual at all.

You are applying characteristics of a subset (missionaries in china you have observered) to the greater population as a whole (all missionaries in China you have not observed).

Missionaries in China are there simply because they percieve the Chinese , who have a thousands of years tradition, perhaps going further back than that of Christianity, as infidels because they are NOT CHRISTIAN, like the westerners are...

Again, so what? They can think what they like, and you seem charmingly unfamiliar with the Chinese attitude towards Westerners.

They are there to tell the Chinese that they are wrong god dammit!

So what?

And if they convert one of themj, by offering them a piece of bread or a bowl of rice when the infidel and his or her family is starving, they will therefore be assured of a place in heaven next to a god, to play a harp for eternity, and watch the rest of the unconverted be burnt to death below them in the lake of fire==

You are know veering wildly from attempting to comment on the fact that they're there to what you understand their theology to be.

that's right--they are priveledged to watch the suffering of others be burnt to death while they play their harps in heaven. No one has ever said what else they will do in that heaven--sounds kind of boring to me to be doing nothing for eternity-- watching others, perhaps even memembers of one's own family, like a son or a daughter, burn forever suffering in some imaginary lake of fire. How nice--watch your daughter suffer while you play your harp for eternity being happy everlasting

Yep, the wheels have now come completely off.

[Malva Zebrina]

68. obfuscating

Blegh--obfuscation of the original premise by accusations is cowardly
And you are venturing further into silly absurdities to obfuscate the original premise.

Missionaries in China

, Christian msisionaries are being blocked by the C hinese and that seems to be an atrocity, according to the original premise.

Why they, the Christian missionaries, are being blocked is because of the cultural traditions in China--which is

that China has NEVER been a country that has embraced the notion of Christianity and the god of the Christians. To put it simply, it does not understand the Western tradition and sees no reason why it need to. It has traditionally been a Buddhist or other philosophical tradtion and has survived nicely without Christianity.

It most likely sees the political abuses of Christianity and prefers not to have missionaries "polluting" it's citizens faith and beliefs. Christianity is telling the citizens that their beliefs are wrong.

To try convert a Chinese and change that thousands year old tradition, is arrogant and is bombastically pushy as Christianity is wont to do.

The Chinese have done just fine as a culture and will do just fine as a culture without Christianity. Christianity in and of itself has nothing to brag about given it's history and is no better than any other religious belief. Why should the Chinese accept having proselytizers offering bowls of rice to poor Chinese families as an incentive to join Christianity, in lieu of their own traditional beliefs when it has such a surly past and indeed, continues even into today to have surly and immoral connections? It is obvious that Christianity is inately corrupt and has been corrupt for centuries. It is easy to get a poor person to accept anything as long as that rice bowl on a stick is temptingly held out, especially when that person has a family to support and feed.

[Character Assassin]

72. You are as much of a True Believer as those you mischaracterize

You evidently know precious little of Chinese culture or its current gov't.

Blegh--obfuscation of the original premise by accusations is cowardly. And you are venturing further into silly absurdities to obfuscate the original premise.

Bullshit. Let's look at your original frothy attempt to paint all Christians with the same brush:

Excuse me but does not the bible advocate subjugation of women and slavery? In this country, slavery was touted as being a Christian biblical mandate and it was perfectly fine with the southern ministers who preached in their pulpits the biblical, godly, tradition of slavery was absolute in it's Christian interpretation.

The bible advocates a lot of different things, and, since it escaped your rather slipshod notice, Christians were the ones who dispensed with slavery in this nation as well. Oh, and nice, gratuitous dig at Southerners there, as well, I might add.

Why they, the Christian missionaries, are being blocked is because of the cultural traditions in China--which is that China has NEVER been a country that has embraced the notion of Christianity and the god of the Christians. To put it simply, it does not understand the Western tradition and sees no reason why it need to.

Oh, really? Like the Western traditions of physics? Mechanical engineering? Chemistry? Those are concepts utterly foreign to the the Dialects, Confucian teachings, etc...

China has a very long history of adopting aspects of other cultures and making them their own. Would they be better off today if they'd never been introduced to electricity, perhaps? Refridgeration?

It has traditionally been a Buddhist or other philosophical tradtion and has survived nicely without Christianity.

You seem to wish it to stagnate, and indicate that it has already ossified to such a degree that attempts to introduce Christianity to such that no outside influences can be introduced. They might pollute the purity of Chinese culture.

That's rather reminiscent of the Klan, in my opinion.

It most likely sees the political abuses of Christianity and prefers not to have missionaries "polluting" it's citizens faith and beliefs. Christianity is telling the citizens that their beliefs are wrong.

That statement indicates to me that you know precious little of the beliefs of the Chinese people.

To try convert a Chinese and change that thousands year old tradition, is arrogant and is bombastically pushy as Christianity is wont to do.

Christians, to my experience, will try to convert anyone. So will Muslims, so will Buddhists, etc...

However, to label them arrogant and bombastically pushy is to fall into the same trap that you are accusing them of laying

The Chinese have done just fine as a culture and will do just fine as a culture without Christianity. Christianity in and of itself has nothing to brag about given it's history and is no better than any other religious belief.

You know nothing of Christian history, it would seem.

Why should the Chinese accept having proselytizers offering bowls of rice to poor Chinese families as an incentive to join Christianity, in lieu of their own traditional beliefs when it has such a surly past and indeed, continues even into today to have surly and immoral connections?

You have a childish and petulant habit of labelling the few as the one. I believe our conversation here is almost finished.

It is obvious that Christianity is inately corrupt and has been corrupt for centuries.

The only thing obvious is your comically profound depth of ignorance regarding history and Christianity and your spelling errors.

It is easy to get a poor person to accept anything as long as that rice bowl on a stick is temptingly held out, especially when that person has a family to support and feed.

And it's even easier to get suckers to believe the Party Line.

[Malva Zebrina]

74. ad hominem does not an argument make

"Excuse me but does not the bible advocate subjugation of women and slavery? In this country, slavery was touted as being a Christian biblical mandate and it was perfectly fine with the southern ministers who preached in their pulpits the biblical, godly, tradition of slavery was absolute in it's Christian interpretation"

Well, wasn't it? What is your problem here?

All throughout the south in that era,especially when civil war was imminent , ministers preached that slavery was biblically mandated. This is very well documented and you can google that yourself to find out which very well placed Christian ministers, especially in the south, preached that as part of pious Christianity. We know, of course, that slavery was abolished after a bitter and bloody war, and is now seen to be an abomination of any morally responsibly society.

But the strange thing is that all of the biblical quotes that these very well placed ministers were fond of preaching from the bible are still there!!! Look it up--all that was touted in favor of slavery as coming from the lips of the saviour god, are still in that book!

Slavery was deemed immoral and illegal in this country, but no one saw fit to change the bible! Nothing has changed in the bible--only the interpretation of those passages has changed. How do Christians account for that? And that is not the only instance--just one of the more recent in time.

It is no secret that women definately in the Christian and even in the old testament and in most religions are subjugated to the patriarchal systems in the religion. This is true in Christianity, Judaism and the Islamic religion. Theres is no real argument here about that.

[Malva Zebrina]

75. more

You said

"The bible advocates a lot of different things, and, since it escaped your rather slipshod notice, Christians were the ones who dispensed with slavery in this nation as well. Oh, and nice, gratuitous dig at Southerners there, as well, I might add."

Well yes, the bible does advoate a lot of diferent things--like slavery, concubines, incest , murder of babies and children of the enemy,and various and other types of societal horrors I would not let my children read about. And, Christians dispensed with slavery--well if that is the denial salve you want to apply to your wound then I will not stop you, but I will point out that there were many who were not christian that opposed this application by southern Christians--so let us say that it indeed was the Christians that dispensed with slavery--which really only confuses the issue because I am left to ponder: which was it--I mean which Christians were the right Christians?--the ones in the south who advoacted slavery, or the ones who finally did not advocate slavery--were there two types of Christians both reading the same book?

[Character Assassin]

77. Even less! You have obviously never read the bible.

Well yes, the bible does advoate a lot of diferent things--like slavery, concubines, incest , murder of babies and children of the enemy,and various and other types of societal horrors I would not let my children read about.

So, when are you actually going to read it?

And, Christians dispensed with slavery--well if that is the denial salve you want to apply to your wound then I will not stop you, but I will point out that there were many who were not christian that opposed this application by southern Christians--so let us say that it indeed was the Christians that dispensed with slavery--which really only confuses the issue because I am left to ponder: which was it--I mean which Christians were the right Christians?--the ones in the south who advoacted slavery, or the ones who finally did not advocate slavery--were there two types of Christians both reading the same book?

So, when will you actually address the intellectually unsupportable claims you originally made about Christians and Christians in China?

Yeah, I didn't think so.

[Character Assassin]

76. Ad hominens would be wasted on you.

"Excuse me but does not the bible advocate subjugation of women and slavery? In this country, slavery was touted as being a Christian biblical mandate and it was perfectly fine with the southern ministers who preached in their pulpits the biblical, godly, tradition of slavery was absolute in it's Christian interpretation"

Well, wasn't it? What is your problem here?

Hello? Einstein? The south lost. The Confederacy is not currently occupying China. You have yet to explain how this has anything to do with the modern world, let alone China.

All throughout the south in that era,especially when civil war was imminent , ministers preached that slavery was biblically mandated. This is very well documented and you can google that yourself to find out which very well placed Christian ministers, especially in the south, preached that as part of pious Christianity. We know, of course, that slavery was abolished after a bitter and bloody war, and is now seen to be an abomination of any morally responsibly society.

You know, personally, I prefer Edlebrock manifolds when I'm working on pre '74 manifolds. I dunno, maybe it's just me.

But the strange thing is that all of the biblical quotes that these very well placed ministers were fond of preaching from the bible are still there!!! Look it up--all that was touted in favor of slavery as coming from the lips of the saviour god, are still in that book!

Irrelevant to your unsupported claims about both China and Christianity.

Slavery was deemed immoral and illegal in this country, but no one saw fit to change the bible! Nothing has changed in the bible--only the interpretation of those passages has changed. How do Christians account for that? And that is not the only instance--just one of the more recent in time.

Irrelevant to your unsupported claims about China and Christianity.

It is no secret that women definately in the Christian and even in the old testament and in most religions are subjugated to the patriarchal systems in the religion. This is true in Christianity, Judaism and the Islamic religion. Theres is no real argument here about that.

Here's a suggestion: have you ever thought about actually staying on topic?

It would make you posts so much more interesting.

[Malva Zebrina]

79. irrelevant? but you have not presented a rebuttal

all you have presented is a declaration that what I have posted is "irrelvant" and I am sure that in your mind, if you deem it to be "irrelevant" then, indeed, that is just another salve on your wounds. It looks rather petulant to me in spite of all the bluster and vacant academia. But as to the propositions--

Is it not the truth that Christianity, most especially in the south, advocated slavery in this country and had the bible chapter and verse to back that up and therefore condoned it from it's pulpits on that premise?

And is it not the truth that after the civil war, when slavery was finally abolished and deemed illegal after a great many bloody battles and the loss of a great many lives, ( by the way, --it was not the activist Christian that changed it and caused slavery to be abolished, but the loss of the war that actually forced the change in the south), that nothing in the bible book that the pious Christians ministers were quoting as a god mandate to deem slavery as "Christian" before the war was changed?

The book remained the same--so how is it that such a terrible and shameful institution took hold and had the bible to back it up and then, after the war, did not have the same mandate? The book did not change one jot or tittle;it still advocates slavery and all the quotes the pious ministers so righteously preached from the pulpit to justify slavery, are still there exactly the same as they preached. How did that happen and what changed? Who were the real Christians or the right Christians?

[Character Assassin]

81. If you do not understand the logic, don't claim to

You have made the claims in the positive (Christianity is evil, shamefull, its representatives are arrogant, blahblahblahblahblah....) but, despite repeated requests, you are unable to back up, support, gird, substnatiate or otherwise prove your claim.

all you have presented is a declaration that what I have posted is "irrelvant" and I am sure that in your mind, if you deem it to be "irrelevant" then, indeed, that is just another salve on your wounds. It looks rather petulant to me in spite of all the bluster and vacant academia. But as to the propositions--

There are no wounds here, other than those scratches on your face where the claws of logic rendered your flesh for having abused it so. I have no wounds here as I am not a Christian.

Any time you'd like to discuss 'academia', Professor, you let me know, hmmm?

Is it not the truth that Christianity, most especially in the south, advocated slavery in this country and had the bible chapter and verse to back that up and therefore condoned it from it's pulpits on that premise?

This is true. No one here has disputed this. Your post is again about as relevant as your milkman's bowling average.

And is it not the truth that after the civil war, when slavery was finally abolished and deemed illegal after a great many bloody battles and the loss of a great many lives, ( by the way, --it was not the activist Christian that changed it and caused slavery to be abolished, but the loss of the war that actually forced the change in the south), that nothing in the bible book that the pious Christians ministers were quoting as a god mandate to deem slavery as "Christian" before the war was changed?

Here, have a clue on my account: Slavery was abolished during the civil war. In fact, quite early on. It wasn't after the war. Nothing about the bible changed, other than the fools that used it to advocate slavery were thrown down. You are now dodging, so please pause a minute to catch your breath.

The book remained the same--so how is it that such a terrible and shameful institution took hold and had the bible to back it up and then, after the war, did not have the same mandate?

If you have to ask the question, you're already too far gone. Oh, by the way, you haven't yet responded yet to my question: when are you actually going to read it? You obviously haven't yet.


The book did not change one jot or tittle;it still advocates slavery and all the quotes the pious ministers so righteously preached from the pulpit to justify slavery, are still there exactly the same as they preached. How did that happen and what changed? Who were the real Christians or the right Christians?

Do you see chattel slavery around you today, fool? How about people using the bible to advocate it?

Go on, step on up.

[Malva Zebrina]

84. Gotcha

You have made the claims in the positive (Christianity is evil, shamefull, its representatives are arrogant, blahblahblahblahblah....) but, despite repeated requests, you are unable to back up, support, gird, substnatiate or otherwise prove your claim

You are stating facts not in evidence and have misrepresented the argument. Perhaps you are getting a little overreactive?


There are no wounds here, other than those scratches on your face where the claws of logic rendered your flesh for having abused it so. I have no wounds here as I am not a Christian.


Now you have resorted to ad hominem and poisoning the well. There is no need for that if you are confident in your argument--you started out OK, but let your emotions get in the way of your logic.

Here, have a clue on my account: Slavery was abolished during the civil war. In fact, quite early on. It wasn't after the war. Nothing about the bible changed, other than the fools that used it to advocate slavery were thrown down. You are now dodging, so please pause a minute to catch your breath.

Oh, I don't mind the abuse, as long as you do admit that I am correct. The bitterness does not look good on you, but nevertheless, I sense that you are coming over to my side. It's amusing that you choose to make such a miniscule, face saving statement that slavery was abolished during the civil war--OK--it may have been or may not have been--the point is that the Christian ministers advocated slavery and preached the moral imperative of slavery using the bible as the unimpeachable rule and after the war, errrrrrr--hmmm let's see--the bible did not change a word--I mean there it was exactly the same and the ministers who were quoting it in order to preserve that tradition in the south, well --hmmm--I mean the bible was the same--where were the ministers?

This is true. No one here has disputed this. Your post is again about as relevant as your milkman's bowling average


Well if it is true that the south advocated slavery and backed that up with biblical quotes, can you explain how it is that it no longer does the same, even though the bible quotes have not changed and remain the same?

My bowling average was pretty good and above average when I did bowl, as a matter of fact LOL


Do you see chattel slavery around you today, fool? How about people using the bible to advocate it?

Go on, step on up.

Gotcha

[Character Assassin]

85. Cup check.

You have made the claims in the positive (Christianity is evil, shamefull, its representatives are arrogant, blahblahblahblahblah....) but, despite repeated requests, you are unable to back up, support, gird, substnatiate or otherwise prove your claim.

You are stating facts not in evidence and have misrepresented the argument. Perhaps you are getting a little overreactive?

No, what I quoted was exactly and precisely your argument, and your misuse of the formal terms of logic quite clearly indicates you have no further platform from which to retract your claims.

There are no wounds here, other than those scratches on your face where the claws of logic rendered your flesh for having abused it so. I have no wounds here as I am not a Christian.


Now you have resorted to ad hominem and poisoning the well. There is no need for that if you are confident in your argument--you started out OK, but let your emotions get in the way of your logic.

You don't even understand how inappropriate it is to lable this 'poisoning the well' because you fail to see the shortcomings in the positions you have alredy offered.

Here, have a clue on my account: Slavery was abolished during the civil war. In fact, quite early on. It wasn't after the war. Nothing about the bible changed, other than the fools that used it to advocate slavery were thrown down. You are now dodging, so please pause a minute to catch your breath.

Oh, I don't mind the abuse, as long as you do admit that I am correct.

I just told you you are not correct.

The bitterness does not look good on you, but nevertheless, I sense that you are coming over to my side. It's amusing that you choose to make such a miniscule, face saving statement that slavery was abolished during the civil war--OK--it may have been or may not have been--

If you cannot, at the very least, agree to common historical dates, than you have no side other than, perhaps, your own, with which to argue. And you've already been thoroughly discredited using terms you have displayed you have no working knowledge of.

the point is that the Christian ministers advocated slavery and preached the moral imperative of slavery using the bible as the unimpeachable rule and after the war, errrrrrr--hmmm let's see--the bible did not change a word--I mean there it was exactly the same and the ministers who were quoting it in order to preserve that tradition in the south, well --hmmm--I mean the bible was the same--where were the ministers?

Not even a worthwhile attempt at a dodge. This issue is the behavior of Christian missionaries in China. Your smoke and mirrors blathering is transparent and indicative of your inability to remain topical. You may as well ask what my favorite color is.

This is true. No one here has disputed this. Your post is again about as relevant as your milkman's bowling average

Well if it is true that the south advocated slavery and backed that up with biblical quotes, can you explain how it is that it no longer does the same, even though the bible quotes have not changed and remain the same?

Are you kidding? There is no more 'south'. There are no more advocates of slavery of any importance. They lost, much in the same manner you have.

My bowling average was pretty good and above average when I did bowl, as a matter of fact LOL

Yawn.

Do you see chattel slavery around you today, fool? How about people using the bible to advocate it?

Go on, step on up.

Gotcha

Yeah. You 'got' hoisted on your own petard.

[Socialist Christian]

60. The bible (idiot paul) says of Slavery "Slaves obey your masters"

because Christ was suppose to return 2000 years ago. The bible also bans braided hair(prostitution). I think you would like to read a few things, its neutral info banned by all sects



The Woman With the Alabaster Jar: Mary Magdalen and the Holy Grail
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1879181037/qid=1069374405/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-0087880-8356958


The Secret Teachings of Jesus- mARVIN w MEYER


Who wrote the new testament-Burton L mack


he da vinci code dan brown

[Socialist Christian]

42. Being a former pseudo missionary

you dont wanna know what goes on behind the doors, its still considered savage conversion. Ironic that its taken strictly from the bible, people dont understand that 2,000 years ago child sacrifice couldnt be refuted, and the Cathic (coptic) churches needed a way to convert the convivial "sinners" as a Christ Follower my tolerance stops at intolerance and the most intolerant people OVERALL (i'm not saying all) are the 3 main religions and we all know them. People refuse to use a critical eye with religion, because the good book says something it must be true. i dont know about you but i havent seen to many women turned to salt lately, also there isnt a sympathetic chracter in the whole thing but mary in she gets a page. Mission do more harm than good. Like Pat Robertson has a gold processing firm and backed Charles Taylor and rebels all throughout, anyone whos a spirtualist knows this was never meant to be an organized religion, its all superstition

[AntiCoup2K4]

71. Hold on a damn minute....

My great grandparents were missionaries in China for the first 20 years or so of the 20th Century. They were probably more conservative than I, but not Freeper types or Pat Robertson disciples by any means.

Arrogant, pushy and disgusting??

Well, let's see.... after barely surviving a small pox epidemic themselves, they spent months caring for others with the disease, and watching a lot of people they loved die in the process.

Yeah, what total fucking arrogance :eyes:

[Character Assassin]

78. There are none so blind, citizen

And unfortunately, that applies even here.

I have known people like your grandparents, but apparently it's too much of a bother for others.

Be well.

[PATRICK]

87. The last time a heretic missionary was real successful

He educated Muhammed. Brand does matter. The Nicolaitan priest who filled Muhammed's mind full of theological conundrums and sentimental drivel helped infuse the Koran with a strange brew of reconditioned Christianity which became a mere backdrop for a new religion. One that Cristianity as such seems to be pitted against by its most undoctrinally sound and foolishly uncompassionate fanatics.

If not heresy then also cultural supremacy and blindness dominating the spiritual faith when meeting other cultures.

That has little to do with this issue. This SOP for China suppressing all rival people's organizations with political potential and growth factors and probabaly a mere enforcing of past policy.

With Falwell and other Mammonite Christians backing the Chinese maybe there is some bargaining leverage going on lest the deal makers get too ambitious about inroads in China.

[sujan]

34. the whole christian missionary thing is ridiculous

Having stated that,
I oppose chinese government suppressing people's right to worship.

People should be allowed to believe in fairy tales if they wanted to.

[Malva Zebrina]

46. But in this country

we had to really fight to get our consitution to protect those who saw Christianity for what it was--political, repressive and determined to chain all citizens to it's absurdities. Thank goodness we had people like Jefferson who saw the writing on the wall.

[Socialist Christian]

49. I wish they would have been more clearer (madison)<nt>

[Trek234]

38. Blame TBN

Paul Croch is trying to get his radical fundamentalist christian TV network broadcast all over China via satelite. (in other words so the Chinese can do nothing about it)

If I was the Chinese government I would be freaked out about his brand of christianity catching on especially given the fact he has all of China as a potential audience and nothing can be done about him. (think 24/7 Osama TV being broadcast in the US - it probably has a similar effect on the Chinese) Granted these Christians probably had no involvment with his organization, but yet again you see fundamentalists giving others a bad name.

[Socialist Christian]

43. I'm all for banning that form, that will do more harm than good

i wouldnt let osama spread his message either

[Malva Zebrina]

54. I really wonder how it comes to be that there is a "brand"

Of Christianity. All of those who would defend arrogance in missionary activity, are defending a particular "brand" of Christianity. That there are so many accomodating "brands" of Christinaity is, to me, an indication of the falsity of this religion.

[Socialist Christian]

57. Denominations...

All the denominations including catholic trace there origins to a single man except Christian Science (a psycho chick that banned medicine) Most with thier own view (brigiam young pro pedophilia and polygamy, also god spoke to him and said hes the one truth leader) etc etc. me i follow Jesus strictly no man, thats why my sn is the way it is and not the other way around besides being my savior hes also the first true Socialist. Im a spiritualist not a religious beign

[happyslug]

45. First look at the US First Amendment

It goes as follows: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech or of the press; or of the right of the people peacefully to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances".

Now why would you put freedom of religion, Speech, Press, assembly and Petition in the same amendment? Why not do one for each? The reason is ALL OF THE ABOVE CAN RELATE TO POLITICAL ORGANIZATION. Churches have a long history or representing political groups. The "Reform" Churches (i.e. Congregational, Presbyterian etc) where the heart of the American Revolution. Those churches backed the revolution almost to a man. The Church of England (Anglican) and the Society of Friends (the Quakers) were just as supportive of the Crown. Yet we do not view the Revolution as religious in formation.

Prior to the invention of Pulp paper and High Speed Presses (In the 1840s-1850s) the most efficient way to communicate was through the Church and this was the power of the Church till Newspapers started to fulfill that roll with the invention of Pulp Paper and the High Speed presses that made modern newspapers possible.

In addition to being a method of spreading ideas (and not always religious ideas) Churches are places people meet, and when people meet they will talk about something their all have in common. Thus people communicated ideas at churches, just like their communicate ideas at colleges and even bars.

The problem the Red Chinese have with the Churches is NOT THEIR RELIGION, but that the churches are independent of the State and as such potential areas where people may meet and plot to overthrow the Government. Last year the Red Chinese were going after the Falun Gong for the same reason there are going after the Christian churches this year, it was a potential group that can be used to organize opposition to the Present Government. Now the Present Government knows that the Christian Churches (and the Falun Gong) can not overthrow the existing government, but their can be the pivot point for such an overthrow (“Lets back the Christian Churches or Falun Gong, not because we like them, but they offer the best chance to overthrow the present regime”). Past revolutions in China had used such groups (even the Present Regime started out as such a group).

Thus this crackdown has NOTHING to do with religion (as in a religious belief) but everything to do with religion as a POLITICAL force. Do not mistake religious persecution for attacks on potential political enemies. The present Chinese Regime is corrupt as any Chinese Imperial Dynasty, and built on the back of the Chinese Peasants (who the Government have forgotten about in the rush to become a modern industrial state). That government fears ANY OPPOSITION and will crush not only real but possible OPPOSITION. The Government fears these Churches (and the Falan Gong) can be used (like the Communist party was in the late 1940s) to overthrow a corrupt profiting government. The Communists in 1945-49 were NOT the majority of the population, but the only opposition to the very corrupt government of the Nationalist Chinese and as such the Chinese peasants back the Communists to overthrow the Nationalists. The present Government fears the same, that the people will rally around a group (be it the Churches of Falan Gong) and overthrow the existing Government.

[Socialist Christian]

52. Last time i checked Falan Gong outnumbered communists 10-1

they have something like upwards of 100 million members i heard. There is no reason why the corrupt regime should be in place. Falan has staged many a protest by lighting themselves on fire, i need to learn more about there believes before i protest for them though. I have been so consetrated on those opus dei nuts in new york.

[mumon]

61. Falun Da Fa (Falung Gong) IS a "cult."

I've actually heard Li Hongzhi speak- he's in the "fraud and charlatan" category.

He says things like "Of the 84,000 doors of (Mahayana) Buddhism, mine is the best one."

"Nobody else can profit financially from my teaching. (But Li)."

"Falun is yellow." (?)

Li is depicted frequently as an incarnation of the Boddhisattva of Compassion, and so to many Buddhists would actually be kind of blasphemous, if you can call anything blasphemous to a Buddhist.

Falun Da Fa was first brought to the attention of Chinese authorities by a Buddhist scholar, who basically complained that Li's teaching was a perversion of Buddhism, and was culty.

And this was also reported not by China Daily, but by the NY Times and Wall Street Journal.

Remember, in the US, if you say on national telivision that what's-her-face pink-hair Crouch is a fraud, you'll be called a bigot.

Believe me, the leadership of Falun Da Fa is a bunch of phonies.

[sujan]

65. I heard it's mostly quackery

naturopathy freaks.

[happyslug]

69. That is not the point

The ruling class of China does not care if something is "real" or "quackery". The issue can it be used as a base for political opposition? If the answer to that is yes, the Chinese Government will go after it. It is ORGANIZED opposition that the Chinese Government FEARS.

To organize you have to get people together. Political Parties are outlawed in China, as are any political organization or group. The Government has a long history of suppressing such groups.
With Political groups crushed, the Chinese Government is looking at any other group that can crystallize into political opposition so to crush them before such crystallization occurs. Thus the pressure on the Christian Churches, Falan Gong and any other group not under the complete control of the Government.

Such crystallization was how the Boxers of the Boxer’s Rebellion went from a cult to a political force. Now the Boxers were crushed, but the Boxer Rebellion weakened the Manchu Dynasty that is was overthrown a few years later. This is the fear of the present Chinese Government, it is a fear that they will be overthrown and do to that fear they want to destroy anything that can challenge their rule.

[mumon]

86. Not entirely true.

Partially true.

They DO want to protect their power, no doubt 'bout that.

But they also see religion as a force for "social stability," and so exploitative cults that threaten social stability are given alot of scrutiny.

[many a good man]

70. Bravo

Well said!

[Character Assassin]

73. I haven't seen common sense like that around here in a long, long time

And I second the call for 'Bravo!'

(Standing and shouting) "De Capo! De Capo!"

Or, in the language of I'm more familiar with: Go Po! Go Po!