11/21 Gen. Franks Doubts Constitution Will Survive WMD attack

[grasswire]

From the December edition of Cigar Aficionado, as reported 11/21:


Gen. Tommy Franks says that if the United States is hit with a weapon of mass destruction that inflicts large casualties, the Constitution will likely be discarded in favor of a military form of government.
Franks, who successfully led the U.S. military operation to liberate Iraq, expressed his worries in an extensive interview he gave to the men’s lifestyle magazine Cigar Aficionado.

In the magazine’s December edition, the former commander of the military’s Central Command warned that if terrorists succeeded in using a weapon of mass destruction (WMD) against the U.S. or one of our allies, it would likely have catastrophic consequences for our cherished republican form of government.

Discussing the hypothetical dangers posed to the U.S. in the wake of Sept. 11, Franks said that “the worst thing that could happen” is if terrorists acquire and then use a biological, chemical or nuclear weapon that inflicts heavy casualties.

If that happens, Franks said, “... the Western world, the free world, loses what it cherishes most, and that is freedom and liberty we’ve seen for a couple of hundred years in this grand experiment that we call democracy.”

Franks then offered “in a practical sense” what he thinks would happen in the aftermath of such an attack.

“It means the potential of a weapon of mass destruction and a terrorist, massive, casualty-producing event somewhere in the Western world – it may be in the United States of America – that causes our population to question our own Constitution and to begin to militarize our country in order to avoid a repeat of another mass, casualty-producing event. Which in fact, then begins to unravel the fabric of our Constitution. Two steps, very, very important.”

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/11/20/185048.shtml

[grasswire]

1. Is this....

...another case of them telling the truth about their plans, right out in the open?

[kalian]

3. Most definitely....

this is what the freepers want. Love dubya and Jesus!
:eyes:

[arcane1]

9. I had the same thought

sounds like a bullshit reason though. Hell we had a CIVIL WAR and still had a damned Constitution!

They just can't stop fantasizing about getting rid of it...

nooses for ALL these bastards!! :grr:

[LiberalFighter]

13. And WWI and WWII

nt

[kalian]

16. These fuckers want to rid us of our heritage...and our identity

They want to make us slaves...corporate slaves.

[dawgman]

21. we already are don't kid yourself.

[slaveplanet]

99. Ahh the bitchslap of reality stings

when it finally sets in-don't it?

my take -see #10 & 37
http://democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=750017

[dawgman]

19. "liberty and democracy?" come on it's already gone

our leaders pay lip service to the ideals set forth in the constitution and the bill of rights and even pretend that they are beholden to us and not corporations, but that is all that it is, lip service.

[lostnfound]

64. Yes and No. Bill of rights is elastic in their eyes; but it still exists..

they take "small rights" away routinely -- by setting up a standard for an intrusive guilty-until-proven-innocent surveillance system

but they take "big rights" away only exceptionally -- people who pull on their leashes the hardest (like those protesting FTAA right now in Miami) lose some of their "big rights"; and those most dangerous to the BFEE lose them all; BUT ordinary law-breakers are still treated with some type of process.

[Spider Jerusalem]

54. Did we, now?

Remember: Lincoln suspended habeas corpus; deployed Federal troops to border states to coercively ensure that elections turned out the "right" way; had dissenting newspaper editors arrested and their presses smashed; and did all sorts of other, fascistic, dictatorial things. You REALLY ought to read a little more history...you might be surprised what you learn.

[arcane1]

94. don't lecture me on history

the Constitution survived the Civil War, that was my point. You'd be surprised what you learn when you read people's posts thoroughly

[Spider Jerusalem]

133. I DID read it thoroughly.

"we had a civil war and still had a constitution"...your words, implying that the Constitution was still in force DURING that civil war. I can't find your stated point in what you said...maybe you should learn to express yourself clearly?

[LifeDuringWartime]

134. i had no idea that that happened

good ol' US public education :eyes:

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. Being honest

I am a HUGE Lincoln fan (I'm black, big surprise), but Ol' Abe walked all over the Constitution during the war.

[SaveAmericaPlease]

135. Civil War is Right

YOu are MUCH MORE RIGHT...

We would have a civil war....and in fact probably end up with around 3-5 nations being carved out of our current political boundaries.

A midwester paper tycoom said this openly a few years ago in a NY Observer interview. He did not say it wolud be a result of terrorism but more because of cultural reasons.

The Midwest and others would conclude that the coastal state elites are not going to be allowed to draft our boys and girls anymore...nor will we go fight wars for them based on conquest and supremcisist ideaologies.

[NashVegas]

60. Looks Like an Invitation

don't it?

heeeeeeeeeeeeere kitty kitty kitty ...

[cthrumatrix]

65. This IS and HAS BEEN the plan .... there will be NO VOTE if this happens

and my guess is that Franks, like others in the cabal, do not say what they are not intended to say.

Perhaps it's a trial balloon to see our reply...it's meant to provoke to stimulate to get Tweety and others to socialize the idea...and then the even occurs.


I have said before...Global Terror is a Trojan Horse for Global Union (and control)...the elites and the corporations would love it. A Patriot Act on steriods would be around the corner.

[cknoch]

93. Global Terror is a Reality...

...not a trojan horse. Whether or not you want to admit it, we have been at war with Global terror for several decades now. It doesn't matter who is in power in the U.S., b/c we have a big ass target painted on us.

I have a great fear of items like the Pariot Act and what could come after a much more devestating attack. But let's not put the cart before the horse. Global Union/Fascism is just being enabled by the fear that Global Terror invokes.

Peace can be made between Western/"Developed" States, but acts of peace by us are simply viewed as acts of weakness and fear of war by Islamic Radicals (believe me, I've read their editorials and speeches). Eventually our Global Peace Experiment (U.N., Global Human Rights NGO's, etc.) will collapse into a war for survival between Radical Islam and Western Capitalism/Special-Interest-Democracy.

[cthrumatrix]

95. correction....facts are facts...the US have supported various

groups covertly in our history...any country can and they have for decades.

Take off your rose colored glasses... and tell me who profited from the 911 stock options on the airlines...tell me how we got the names and photos of 911 hijackers when they used fake id's to board a plane and not a passnger list...tell me more after you read the 28 pages didacted from the 911 report...tell me more how al queada agents captured in one instance (i know off) were Mossad agents...


you...have no idea what is going on...go watch your Micheal Jackson trial ans stay tuned for when your civil liberties are yanked from you in the name of "tarra"...an invisible enemy...with no country

[JCMach1]

139. You are so wrong... The Arab

world is, if anything, more like us than you can imagine (only without the guns). The VAST majority of Arabs are not radicals. They are anti-Bush and pro-Palestine, but MOST are not radicals.

[FlaGranny]

143. DId you ever wonder who painted that

"big ass" target on us? Maybe they wouldn't have given us a second thought if we hadn't for so many years interfered with their way of life. In most cases, we haven't acted as arbitrators, but as subversives, with CIA assassinations, oil deals, dirty tricks, broken promises, etc., etc. Arbitrators for world peace is what we should be, but most of our actions have only caused resentment.

[tabasco]

2. Gee, Tommy's greatest dream come true.

I will fight him and those like him to the death to prevent us from becoming a military slave society.

[kalian]

4. You're not alone....

[grasswire]

6. some of the freepers are...

...already cleaning their rifles on reading this article.

The government would have to grab guns to make this work. And that will bring citizens of all stripes out from the woodwork to resist.

[kalian]

14. My rifles are always ready....

to defend my country and Constitution from ALL ENEMIES...both foreign
AND DOMESTIC.

[metisnation]

113. damn straight

try to come and get my guns and you will recieve bullets. This would spell revolution!!!!

[Mike Niendorff]

23. They've got nothing to worry about.

Bush's designs on the Bill of Rights aren't even remotely aimed at the far right. It's the other 98% of America he's worried about. (And you can bet that, once it's put to them that way, virtually all freepers will happily join in the shredding).


MDN

[jayfish]

41. Ahhhh,...

but that's the illusion isn't it? It's all about money and power, not political affiliation. The freeps who have none of the above would eventually represent the same threat and suffer the same fate as the non-freeps. In this hypothetical no one outside of the dictatorships' pro and para-militaries would be allowed to own firearms.

Jay

[reprobate]

83. Are you saying that only the right own guns?

If that's what you are saying, let me disabuse you of the notion right now. The right may be louder about their guns, but many of us on the left are gun owners too.

And we may be the first ones at the barricades.

[BiggJawn]

89. You go to the Barricades...

I'll take the rooftops and shadows.

If we can't protect this country from this Neo-Con Cancer, then we really don't deserve this country, do we?

[CaptainClark23]

100. You go to the roofs and shadows

And I'll take the subway...

[BiggJawn]

103. I don't have a subway....

have fun.....:evilgrin:

[submerged99]

116. I agree

I agree with you. I grew up around guns and none of my family or friends were republicans so I think it's a misconception that only the right owns guns. In fact, my mother is a business woman and bought an m-1 rifle a couple of years ago.*L* believe it or not.

[Occulus]

44. Do you know this

for a fact?

If you do, you may want to point out to them that we here at DU have much the same sentiment about such a thing.

After seeing this, I'd say now is the time to forge an unbreakable bond between 'us' and 'them'.

If ever there were an issue that could do so, this would be it.

[WhereIsMyFreedom]

125. I was thinking the same thing

Wow, here's an issue that could bring freepers and DUers together. The problem is that it seems the freepers are willing to lose all rights except for the guns. So as long as the new military state we become allows them to keep their guns they'll be happy. In fact, they'll probably be using them against us because we'll be at the barricades, on the rooftops, and in the subways.

[aquart]

5. Hoping, Tommy, dear?

Hoping for a permanent state of fear?

Praying for a permanent state of fear?

What a useless jerk.

[Octafish]

7. What an odd thing to say. A Franks Freudian slip?

Who gets to be Dick-tater, Tommy? Duhbya? Sneer? Poppy?

I'm with gsh999.

[finecraft]

8. I was just going to post this

I found it on another website and couldn't believe what I was reading. This is truly frightening!

[fabius]

10. Sounds like a trial balloon...

Our republic will only die if we give it up to these fascists.

I'll die in the streets before I let them do this.

All DUers, just remember your Second Amendment rights.

[fabius]

12. Our Constitution survived the Civil War.

9-11 was pretty close to a WMD.

Sounds like a lot of authoritarian blather to me. Of course Franks is an authoritarian. I think there are a number of people that ARE looking forward to some kind of martial law.

A pretty good general apparently, but so was Heinz Guderian.

[SaveAmericaPlease]

136. Excuse me.....

Our constitution survived at a time when men military men were very limited in their ability to wage war...when media was very limited in its ability to mold and scare society.....

if ur going to wage a revolution or civil war and wiin...it would be best to start one before reacting into one.

just a freedom loving guys opinion.

[alfredo]

130. that was my first impression too.

We must resist.

[JaySherman]

11. President Bush

“As I look at President Bush, I think he will ultimately be judged as a man of extremely high character. A very thoughtful man, not having been appraised properly by those who would say he’s not very smart. I find the contrary. I think he’s very, very bright. And I suspect that he’ll be judged as a man who led this country through a crease in history effectively. Probably we’ll think of him in years to come as an American hero.”

:puke:

[kalian]

15. "Bright" and "smart" are two very different things....

:eyes:

[SammyWinstonJack]

81. What a load of Horsesh*t!

Tommy boy, with this statement, proves that the Emperor truly has no clothes.

[fabius]

17. Quote from Franks

"It’s not in the history of civilization for peace ever to reign. Never has in the history of man. ... I doubt that we’ll ever have a time when the world will actually be at peace.”

Not if you have anything to do with it Tommy.

[Minstrel Boy]

27. "We love war! We're a warlike people"

Didn't Michael Ledeen say that?

[Skip Intro]

18. They would go this far before ending the "cause" of the attacks?

They - the unAmerican right, would actually dismantle the nation, what we stand for - who we are, before pulling out of other peoples' countries we probably don't have any legit business in to begin with?

When do the self-proclaimed patriots who are on their knees to these triators finally say "enough is enough?"

Is the destruction of America any less a destruction if it is done by the bush regime instead of our "enemies?"

It will not happen. The military would turn on them. So would the people (outside of the freeping bushbots who want to replace the flag with the cross).

[kalian]

20. A large part of the US military is with them I'm afraid....

and many doubted that the German High Command would side with the
Nazis...yet they did...and fought a World War on their behalf...

[jfxgillis]

22. Actually,

Yeah, Franks is too conservative for my taste and he's way too big of a Bush-booster, but he has some very intriguing things to say about dissent.

Besides, Franks might well have a point.

[kalian]

24. You saying that maybe he's "warning" us...?

:shrug:

[jfxgillis]

30. It's a reasonable interpretation, even just based on

the excerpts here.

I'm telling you, I sat down at Borders last week and read the whole (HUGE!) interview and found myself nodding sometimes.

Look. I don't expect the typical DUer to find the full interview attractive. His effusive praise of Bush alone is probably enough for his position to rejected out of hand.

But when they asked Franks about criticism and anti-war protests and such, he was positively thrilled. He loved it. It seemed like he GETS what being a citizen in a democratic republic is all about. I found myself wishing he was in Bush's cabinet (and wondering if there's a reason why he isn't) just because then at least I'd know SOMEBODY in that crew had their head screwed on half-way straight.

Remind me and I'll link the full interview when it goes on line in a week or so.

[Judi Lynn]

50. Really looking forward to reading the interview.

You'll be doing DU readers a favor if you post it.

[aquart]

45. He has no point whatsoever.

Should the national constitution fail, we still have 50 state constitutions. Individual governors will sieze power according to their temperaments and the mood of their citizens.

Money will be state issued. Borders will be guarded. We will either rejoin as one nation or form into several large units.

General Franks wasn't here in NYC for 9/11. Nobody went to any recruiting center to enlist. Everyone was too busy helping. And it was the Salvation Army that was important.

What he's talking about is taking advantage of terror to destroy the nation. Me, I call talking about doing away with the constitution of the United States treasonous. I would have no trouble seeing Franks hang.

[jfxgillis]

71. Look. As I said, I don't expect DUers to agree

And he may indeed be an enemy of Constitutional order, but I do not think that your interpretation is correct.

He's saying that Constitution could be literally stampeded by PUBLIC demand and/or by the exploitation of the public by demagoguery.

I doubt he expects the various state constitutions to maintain their force while the Federal Constitution collapses. I'm guessing he fears chaos and anarchy or a version of closed totalitarianism.

[GoldenOldie]

84. Eisenhower warned us to beware of a Military takeover

Bush took an oath of office to uphold the Constitution. Gen Franks took an oath of office to uphold the Constitution. DeLay, Ginghrich, and all our Reps took this same oath of office, yet they are the same ones that violated this oath. Clinton lied under oath and was impeached, yet these traitors are held up as leaders.

Democracy an experiment??? Try telling that to all of those that gave their lives and their families who have been left behind to view the sacrilege of their sacrifice. Bush, Cheney, DeLay, Gingrich, etc., have thrived on the blood of those who fought while they only enriched themselves.

I am no fan of Gen Frank who failed in his oath.

[Roon]

25. Why is this General..

spouting anti-American rhetoric? This really gives me the creeps...

[wtmusic]

26. What a pig

He doesn't deserve to be in any decision-making role

[saigon68]

72. Time to retire

And get a $500,000.00 per year job with a defense contractor.

[Guaranteed]

28. ..........

This kind of stuff raises big time alarms in my mind.

[Occulus]

48. You're not kidding.

:scared: :scared: :scared: :scared: :scared:

[xxqqqzme]

29. dingdingdingdingding

thanx 4 the heads up gen tom. B keeping my eye on U. This is why I have not and do not trust the military. Scary Freak!

[carpetbagger]

31. Is this guy not the worst theater commander since John Pope?

I'm glad he's gone. Really, really glad. (Applies both to Pope as well as Franks).

[bluestateguy]

32. Because military governments are so much safer to live in

Why is it that the safest nations on earth are overwhelmingly democratic socialist countries with small militaries?

[evildoer]

33. If his vision is correct,

the Constitution isn't worth the blood spilled to keep or sovereignty. What a pathetic outlook one must have to be a General and not beleive in our country.

[grasswire]

34. rumsfeld's idea for America

[aquart]

46. Has Tommy Franks ever been correct?

Is he known as a seer? A visionary? An astute judge of circumstances?

[glitch]

35. when this 'general' joined the military didn't he swear to defend

the Constitution from enemies both foreign and domestic, and to do otherwise is TREASON?
Any speculation on what he thinks would happen if an WMD attack should be accompanied by a reiteration of that vow, don't you think?
Isn't there any honor among generals anymore?

[Polemonium]

49. My thoughts exactly

That a general can be so openly dismissive of the constitution is disgusting. :puke:

[Sick of Bullshit]

55. Franks is the kind of general Truman had in mind when he said

"It's not against the law for a general to be a dumb son-of-a-bitch. If it were, half to three-fourths of them would be in jail".

[DeathvadeR]

36. WTF? Does he mean here in the states?

Fuq that, Marhsal Law style? Military style government?

[kodi]

37. what about the mine shaft gap?

.

[Snazzy]

42. Ha! Wolfy and Rummy got it covered

But ya know, whenever I start thinking about whatever American-soil post-apocalyptic wet dreams that some of these assholes envision and plan, I find balance in the thought that most just want to play golf and brag about how they got a larger slice by sticking it to the vast majority of us humans.

Fortunately, I think, there's more assholes in this later category of assholes. I hope that, no matter how screwed up this assumption is, and no matter how much we despise 'em, all of 'em, the majority assholes don't let it get so out of control.

Hard to take in a round of golf in your moon suit.

[The Magistrate]

38. This Man Should Be Cashiered

There is no excuse for this sort of drivel from a serving officer. It is a betrayal of his oath to the Constitution.

[saigon68]

61. You Sir are Correct

Frank's job is to defend the country and follow the orders of the civilian leaders.
If he wants to get into politics he should retire, and follow General Clark. I guess he likes wearing cammies too much.

[Rex]

39. They discard the Constitution and I take up arms.

Log it, delete it, bank on it. Tommy Franks just gave us his wet dream senario. They think that ALL of us are braindead, they got another think coming!

[truthisfreedom]

40. why dignify this with a response?

[shanti]

111. exactly

and consider the source!

[Emillereid]

43. Assuming nothing happens by chance --

I bet that Franks is simply breaking the news to the American people to ready them for the 'unmasked' military takeover -- especially if it looks like Bushit is going to lose the election. I'm sure we have plenty of WMDs in our arsenal that they can use to ramp up the fear enough for a more overt military dictatorship to show its face. Not only did the constitution survive the British invasion of 1812, a bloody civil war, two world wars, assassinations, etc., Franks is basically informing us the it's not going to survive Bush the lesser's presidency. He's telling us that the neo-cons have no intentions of relinquishing power. I hope the democrats respond to this big time.

[xxqqqzme]

47. hell no, they

R not about to relinquish power. They had 2 wait 8 long years thru Clinton to grab it back & even then they had 2 cheat. Think they dare leave that power grab up 2 a VOTE in '04?

[murielm99]

137. I agree with you.

I think they will find some excuse to declare martial law, if they even THINK they will lose in 04.

The question is, what are we going to do about it?

[grasswire]

51. I think you're right

I think Franks talked about something they freely discuss among the inner circle. Something that's a given, to them. He just happened to spill a little bit of it to "Cigar Aficionado" of all things.

A trial balloon? Or a simple admission, such as Perle is wont to make?

Yesterday with Perle's admission that "morality" supercedes international law, some DU-ers talked about the blatant confidence of the neo-cons and Bushies. They don't even try to hide things.

So I guess, if WE fail, we'll have a military government. Not just martial law specific to a WMD event, but a MILITARY GOVERNMENT.

[truthisfreedom]

52. i don't think i've ever seen anyone in a position like his make such un-Am

-erican comments. of course the Constitution would survive a wmd attack. hell, we blew off nukes in nevada for decades and the Constitution was just fine. we survived plagues, fires, measles and mumps. this is America, dammit... our Constitution will be just fine. if anyone wants to mess with it, however, they'd better look out.

ok, so i responded after saying i wouldn't dignify it with a response. so shoot me.

[leftchick]

56. nah....

I liked your response.... :)

[pinniped]

53. Are these are the real fuckers who hate our freedoms?

Guess so.

And thanks to ASSHOLES like BULLshyt and his cronies there is greater chance it will happen.

[TrueStory]

57. Good point - even thinking with right-wing logic

the Terrorists are trying to demolish US freedom
=> if General Tommy Franks wants to transform US in military dictatorship than he is helping the Terrorists
=> he is the Biggest Terrorist of our times

[kentuck]

58. Now if we can just get the Democrats to agree with him ??

Then we are up shit creek...

[Socialist Christian]

59. Take your pick: Ladies a handmaids tale; Men 1984<nt>

[abelenkpe]

98. fabulous books, but

so bleak. Have you ever read 'The Fourth Turning?' by William Strauss and Neil Howe? (Which is equally bleak in some respects) While the authoritarian regimes depicted in both books you mentioned are a possible outcome of the current crisis our society faces, there are other outcomes that can occur as well...at least as described in 'The Fourth Turning.' So I'm still hoping for an optimistic scenario, simply because it offers the option of democracy surviving and our society improving, growing stronger and regenerating. You might want to check out that book, I'd love to know what you think of it.

[Socialist Christian]

117. I just had my library reserve me a copy,

i had never heard of it before, thanks.

[wildmanj]

62. franks

just what we need another a@@hole telling us about the constitution---i always go back and look at the founding fathers and its in their wisdom that i make my decisions

[Ganja Ninja]

66. I just have one question.

Why do they hate America?

[cthrumatrix]

67. It's control ...power...greed...the global elite

america will not entertain a "global union" unless it were reduced to the same levels as other countries

[kayell]

69. They hate us for our freedoms

Republican projection is amazingly revealing.

[dArKeR]

68. Oliver North under Reagan's orders worked on the first Junta Military

overthrow of our government. That came out in the Iran/Contra Hearings. Right? It's probably the same plan they have now.

[kayell]

70. This coupled with Jebs threats against SF and

the alleged Al Queda threat to kill 100,000 by the end of Ramadan is really making me worry that they are close to something horrific. It would again perfectly suit their agenda, and take the attention off any little impediments to their rule like Plamegate, the 9/11 investigation, the CIA investigations, too many bodies coming home from Iraq etc.

It looks to me like they really enjoy floating these little ideas out to see whether anyone will actually react. They are confident that no one will really believe that they mean what they say. OUR pResident couldn't possibly be so evil, OUR pResident would only work for our good, after all, he's an American, and we Americans aren't nazis, we could never be fooled like the germans. All the while we are marching down the exact same historical path.

[abelenkpe]

97. same thought

I gotta say when I heard about Jeb's remarks about SF I also got the impression that SF would be the perfect sacrifice in the eyes of the strategists at PNAC. I know individuals who have suspected since 9/11 that the PNAC agenda was frustrated that the fourth plane did not in fact hit it's intended target, which many have supposed could have been Congress. My main worry has been that if the PNAC extremists in the Bush administration begin to feel they may lose the election they will either 'allow' or stage a terrorist attack, preferably on the west coast where much of the current dissent is centered. Los Angeles is the fourth largest economy in the world, so that may spare it as a target, leaving SF the most vulnerable. Either way, I hate feeling this country could consider or allow such things to come to pass, no matter how corrupt our leaders are considered to be. Let's hope that these worries are baseless. I think it would be much easier to simply rig the elections through electronic voting devices. Look how little dissent arose from the last presidential election. I feel that Gen. Franks is correct in his assertion that the public would demand martial law, and willingly put aside the constitution, in the event of another attack on our country. Much of the populace is already consumed with fear. And look at how willing many were to demonize those who were against our buildup to the war in Iraq. Our society is in a dangerous spin, one more blow to our country and the people will willingly call for a suspension of democracy if they feel it will protect them. It has happened before: look at the history of Ancient Greece and Rome. Our democracy is just as fragile as the those that have passed away before. Owning your own gun will not preserve our constitution. We need to work together to preserve our democracy. That is what makes this site, and others like it, so valuable.

[Ganja Ninja]

109. Sounds about right to me.

The old Sodom and Gomorra scam, it’s déjà vu all over again. They will wipe out the city and claim is was Osama. Then all the TV evangelists will say it was God’s way of punishing them.

[Kolesar]

73. Cigar Aficionado Magazine? Is that where the great journalism is?

Relayed through that oracle of conservative bullshit: Newsmax

[kodi]

74. yeah, sure. let's see soldiers grow crops, build houses, & run commerce

the thing about being a "lifer" in the military is that it is such a cocoon.

franks may speak english but his grasp on americans is sorely lacking.

for those who care, a single look at france, yes france, when de gaulle was almost assassinated after the franch/algerian war and a coupe was initiated, the nation went on strike, and saved the republic.

the same would happen in the US. the workers of the country would go on strike and the military would have to decide either to kill the workers or give up power to a democratically elected government.

[0007]

75. This information is coming from a low class right wing propaganda site....

pay no attention to this garbage.

Perhaps Tommy Franks should be tried for war crimes? Dick Cheney is a greedy power hungry thug. And is right up there with Spiro Agnew.

Krugman has too much class to talk to these right winger freeps.
His book, "The Great Unravelling" is too deep for these folks at NewsMax to understand.

[Beetwasher]

76. This Is What's Known As FLOATING

They are getting this idea out there, and yes, it should make you VERY afraid that they are...

[BuckeFushe]

78. This is a pre-cursor to their next attempt at total control

Do not put it past these fuckers to stage another catastrophe to keep control of the piggy bank they call America.

[AWD]

77. Lemme get this straight....

....they think Iraq will become a democracy?

But one attack on the United States will end ours?

[tom_paine]

91. One is a lie, the other is the baldfaced truth

I leave it up to you to figure out which is which.

:evilgrin:

[DeathvadeR]

114. Could this be Rome moving locations again? n/t

[goforit]

79. Franks is a PNAC butt boy.....warning us of an imminnent attack by WH!

The WH wants an official Dictatorship!!!!

Remember when they wanted to pass a law in congress if
Washington were bombed!!...There would not be any more branches of gov't allowed again!!!!
A total take over!!!

[Papa]

80. General Clark should come out swinging at these remarks

We need to get these remarks out in the public. All the Candidates should make an issue of this. ARE ANY OF YOU CANDIDATES LISTENING?

Franks needed to say that we will die to defend our constitution. If we are attacked by WMD's, I will not question the Constitution, I and a majority of Americans will question our GOVERNMENT. I can't believe how much contempt they have for the Constitution.

And I also take offense to his remarks that Democracy is an experiment, Like we arent really sure if freedom works, we're still experimenting to see

I'm now thinking seriously about buying a gun.

[YankeyMCC]

82. And this is the guy that tries to smear Gen Clark's character??

Seems to me it's our freedoms ensured by the Constitution that make us more able to fight terrorism. Seems to me a US General should be talking about how that is what differentiates us.

It would be a good idea I think for General Clark to call him out on these comments.

====
"A great nation is not saved by wars, it is saved by acts without external picturesqueness; by speaking, writing, voting reasonably; by smiting corruption swiftly; by good temper between parties; by the people knowing true men when they see them, and preferring them as leaders to rabid partisans or empty quacks." William James (1842-1910), American Philosopher

[Papa]

85. Yeah, im pretty sure this was the guy smearing Clark

Talk about character. Talk about Un-American. Someone should address these comments. We stand with the constition, THEY STAND AGAINST IT!

[goforit]

122. Yep!!....Even some pugs are seeing the light!!!

Clark and Dean are becoming more attractive to the
the right probably due to all their losses financially!

[reprobate]

86. Calm down. He was quoting de Touqueville.

De Touqueville described american democracy as a "Great Experiment" because it was the only democracy in the world at the time (I quess he didn't include england). He questioned how long it would last.

[jfxgillis]

96. Britain

really didn't join the "Great Experiment" until the great Reform Act, I think right around the time Toqueville was writing, mid-1830s.

And I thank for your "calm down" advice. As I mentioned above, I bet when you read the whole interview and not just NewsMax's excerpts, you'll find some interesting views.

[bobbieinok]

87. from my thread in GD

Michael Savage said Newsmax had an article in which Franks said if there were another terror attack on US soil, the people would demand martial law.

Savage said this bothers him because there would be no talk radio, just propaganda all the time (!?!?!?!?!?).

He said Brokow, Rather, Jennings would continue, but he would not be allowed to because he is 'too unpredictable, thinks for himself' (!?!?!).

He started out talking about the negative implications of martial law but was clearly conditioning his listeners and callers to accept this.

There's supposedly a poll on his web site: 'Would you want martial law in the event of a terror attack?'

[unbrand]

102. Michael Savage poll results on acceptance of martial law

As of 11:06 AM PST,

Would You Support Martial Law If We Were Hit With Weapons of Mass Destruction?

YES(4401)
65%

NO(2395)
35%

6796 total votes since 11/21/03


Now tell me, just who makes up this 65%? Is this really representative of people in America? If so, then Gen. Franks' trial balloon should come floating back safely with the words "Bring on martial law!" scrawled on it.

Un-f'ing-believable.

[slaveplanet]

107. I just did a poll with myself

yes-0%
No-100%

let me tell you, the poll was very scientific

he can put up any #'s he wants....that's how much polls are worth

yet everyone hangs on them for elections.

Franks wasn't talking about Martial Law. He was floating the plans they have to replace our system with a whole new military government whether the US is hit or not....."WMD's anywhere in the western world"

why doesn't Savage poll for that?

[arcane1]

118. that means 4,401 respondents hate America

simply put

[arcane1]

119. that means 4,401 respondents hate America

simply put

[Minstrel Boy]

88. You mean it survived the last attack?

Who knew? :shrug:

[glitch]

104. good point! nt

[shamanstar]

90. im going to get my passport asap

wow. this is very scary- they are preparing us for this.

[alittlelark]

121. patriots fight

My husband and I contemplated moving to Canada a year or so ago - the way this is playing out frightened us(especially for our children). I spent awhile talking with a neighbor who was a big part of the anti-vietnam movement who talked me out of it. He said " If you believe in the IDEALS that this country stands for, you have to stay and fight...they are hoping that you will either hide your head in the sand or run away"
We're still here and doing what we can...we all NEED to, this is as serious as it gets.

[RobinA]

92. Propaganda, Treason

call it what you want, I've thought what he's saying since September 12, 2001. If it happens again, WMD or not, it's over.

[zbdent]

101. Can you say 'October Surprise'?

I knew you could!

(gee, suspending the constitution means no more elections while at martial law, whoda thunkit! - us.)

[Khephra]

105. Thank goodness for the 2nd amendment

.

[RobinA]

108. Why?

You're going to hold off the U.S. military with a hand gun?

[Khephra]

112. Not the entire military

But I won't go quitely into the night. And I'm sure there will be more like me. And, surprisingly enough, I'm a pacifist non-gun owner.

[PATRICK]

106. Cigar Aficianado?

This is a pretty gutless statement since we who do all the real dying and risking appraently are not going to be allowed to die for anything except the glorious ascension of Bushockracy.

Generals and committment to "democracy" do not often mix. Clark is a wonderful exception(and I think more endangered survived under his watch. Put that in your conqueror's pipe, pessimists.

Keep smoking those Cuban cigars and shrink some more cerebral capillaries, Tony.

[Donna Zen]

120. Observations and tales of caution

One of prime reasons I was attracked to Clark's candidacy was his insistance of the survival of the Constitution. In three recent speeches and interviews (see full 60 II transcript) he warns us of the danger that document. To paraphrase: the Romans and Greeks had forms of democracy, but they disappeared. The Constitution must be defended if we are to hold on to our democracy. Although with the current one party rule, we are essentially there.

I would like to think that a Clark presidency could realign the military, and because he knows the up and coming brass, he would push for the advancement of the more moderate-liberal officers. I think the military's current position in the GOP back pocket is the most dangerous movement in America today.

BTW, it would be very easy to change our government to the Frankian proposed military dictatorship. First, they declare a "temporary" state of marshall law. That's what they did during Kent State, and it happened swiftly and without complaint. Second, they put forward reasons why Congress must temporarily be dismissed and a governing council formed to make the immediate decisions that messy ol' democracies hinder. Never tell people that others are concerned about these totalitarian moves, in fact, media blitz the public with warm fuzzy tales of how beautifully the whole plan is working to keep us safe. During times of civil unrest fill the airwaves with pictures of Michael Jackson getting arrested. Duct taped nation loves one party rule.

[KansDem]

110. Speaking of The Constitution, where was it on 9/11?

Or any of the Charters of Freedom for that matter. We were under attack; did anyone take responsibility to make certain the Charters in the National Archives were safe? Was it seen to that they were safe in their bombproof vaults? Was the order to lower them on their elevator into their vaults ever given?

I don't recall seeing or hearing ANYTHING about the safety and security of The Charters of Freedom on 9/11. But what would have happened if one of the airliners had flown into the National Archives building?

[goforit]

123. We lost our constitution on 12-10-00!!!

They just want to make it official!

[RobinA]

126. You're Right About That

That probably was worse than anything that has so far come out of 9/11. The Patriot Act can be gotten rid of if Congress has the will. Once you put an unelected guy in office, you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

[peacetalksforall]

131. Why speak in the future tense about losing our constitution?

I agree, we lost a huge chunk in 2000 - 12-12, not 12-10 (right?).

We are losing chunks every day. That is the way they have it planned - there won't be any major takeover, we are being taken over every day.

Franks words are a diversion. You can't see it when it happens a little at a time like the melting of an iceberg where it takes scientists to measure it compared to the impact of a one great melt. They are very, very clever and NewsMax is a propaganda tool - this is designed to make you think that it is a future possibility. Now is now.

[ElementaryPenguin]

115. Sheesh - how could have much MORE of a military government than ChimpCo??

They've already done this, Tommy Boy!

[Fleshdancer]

124. Losing the Constitution after one more attack?

well that's an interesting way of letting the terrorists win. :cry:

[RobinA]

127. The Terrorists Have Won

every time somebody has to walk through a metal detector to go to a sporting event or a Springsteen concert. They've won whenever a highway sign around the Capital Beltway flashes that any "suspicious activity" should be reported to authorities. They won when the United States attacked Iraq.

[SpiralHawk]

128. Hopi elder warned of martial law just before 9/11

I read a column in the Albuquerque Journal about a week before 9/11 happened. The man who wrote the column had recently been out to Hopi, over in Arizona. In the column he related part of his conversation with one of the spiritual elders, without naming the elder.

At any rate, the elder told the columnist that Americans better get ready for martial law, because it was coming soon. That was a seemingly preposterous statement, until a week or so later when 9/11 smashed into national consciousness, and BushCo failed to defend America -- could not even muster a pop gun to defend the Pentagon with a hour to respond? Pathetic, or treasonous, one or the other.

As anyone who has been paying attention knows, BushCo has used the pretext of 9/11 and the reality of FEAR (which it has agitated), to strip our nation of basic freedoms and rights. So now, at this juncture, the insight of the unnamed Hopi elder seems sadly to be entirely possible. Overnight. The iron fist which has encircled us, may close and clench.

It is then in my view that we will meet our true test as a nation. Are we strong and wise and courageous enough to restore the government the founders bequeathed to us -- a government of the people, by the people, and for the people.

Republican lurkers, please note well. You, too, will be tested. What do you really stand for? Think about it. Because as I see it, you are about to get a Royal Fascist Screwing, just as are the rest of the citizens of your nation, no matter their political affiliation. It really matters this time.
The hour draws near.

[shance]

129. If this were to actually occur, this would probably be the onset of WW III

Take a look at history.

Guess who would be on the losing end? We wouldnt be the allies this time around.

[peacetalksforall]

132. America suffers

Because NO ONE in a leadership role thinks PEACE. NO ONE. We have no plan for peace. We have no consciousness for peace.

We are a war mongering nation from our first killing of Native Americans. We are not a glorious or free country. We lie to our children every time we put them on a bus to go to shcool where the proplaganda starts at a very early age. We lie to them whenever we let a hypocritical teacher show them how to understand and pronounce the pledge of allegiance. We don't tell them the truth. We LOVE WAR and we are incapable of rising up to lead the world in peace or follow someone who can lead. We are as phoney and hypocritical as is possible. The only difference between us is our ability to eat the propoganda. Our country is glorius in weapons and killing.

[grasswire]

138. did anyone see Ken Allard on MSNBC...

...with Olbermann on Friday? Allard (a retired military talking head) said basically what we're saying -- that the difference between military government and martial law is huge. I'll look for the transcript and post it.

[trapper914]

140. It's Just Politics

Polls show support for the Iraq war at their lowest ebb, so they trot Tommy Franks out to tell people what happens if we don't wipe out the brown people. It's a scare tactic, and for the weak minded, it will probably work to some degree.

[number6]

141. This is the PLAN !!!

LIHOP or MIHOP it , scare everbody, result one Police STATE !!!!
be afraid, very afraid :scared:

[Barrett808]

142. Could the neo-cons be any clearer about their intentions?

I wonder if the Policy Analysis Market will take bets on a "terrorist" attack on a US city for Q4 2004. I have $200 sez chem/bio/dirty bomb attack in San Francisco in October, 2004. If dirty bomb, it will be made from nuclear materials looted from Tuwaitha.