Chemical terror plot foiled in London

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=U13PRTS5KRSRICRBAELCFEY?type=topNews&storyID=407472§ion=news

LONDON (Reuters) - An attempt by a London-based terror group to buy half a tonne of toxic chemicals was foiled after the supplier became suspicious and alerted police, the Financial Times has reported.

It said the group had attempted to buy 500 kgs (1,102 lb) of the toxin saponin from Amersham Biosciences late last year but the sale was refused after staff became concerned about the size of the order.

A spokesman for London's Metropolitan Police told Reuters on Saturday that police were "not prepared to discuss the matter" at this time.

The Financial Times quoted experts as saying the chemical could have been mixed with another toxin, such as ricin, and smeared in public places, causing widespread poisoning.

Saponin is sometimes used in laboratories to enhance the transmission of molecules through biological cell walls, while ricin is highly toxic, with less than one milligram sufficient to kill an adult.

<snip>

Let's see... A "London Based Terror Group". Dubya's going to have to put England down as a terrorist nation now. That'll pump up Tony's opinion numbers.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

1. Yes, sir...that saponin is really bad stuff....

<http://216.20.235.20/phytochemicals/saponin.htm>

"Saponins are natural surfactants, or detergents, found in many plants, but they are most abundant in the desert plants Yucca and Quillaja. Extracts from these plants are commonly used as foaming agents for beverages such as root beer. These biochemicals also have commercial applications such as ore separation in industrial and mining operations, and are useful in products such as photographic emulsions, cosmetics, and shampoos."

Oooooh, scary!!! :scared:

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

2. It's just a transmission agent. But mix it with Acid and they could

have turned London back into an Austin Powers swinging 60's town. :-)

[rman]

3. so the stuff they were trying to buy isn't highly toxic

Thus this whole chemical terror thing is based on the *idea* that the stuff *could have been mixed* with ricin.

Couldn't pretty much anything be mixed with ricin? wouldn't that make pretty much anything a chemical terror threat?
There's no indication this group was actually trying to obtain ricin. They *could* have, but that goes for anyone. Does that make anyone a potential suspect of terrorism?

[radfringe]

4. ummm....

"It said the group had attempted to buy 500 kgs (1,102 lb) of the toxin saponin from Amersham Biosciences late last year but the sale was refused after staff became concerned about the size of the order."

If the group tried to buy it LATE LAST YEAR - why are we hearing about it now? Why didn't we hear about it LATE LAST YEAR or even EARLIER THIS YEAR?

booga-booga time?

[Paschall]

5. "London based terror group"

Actually, until some months after 9/11, Britain was still employing a broad policy of "appeasement" with regard to terrorist organizations: They could operate openly in Britain, organizing the financing of suspect operations and recruiting adepts, if they committed no terrorist crimes on British soil.

So in fact there are numerous so called religious and charitable organizations with alleged ties to terrorist violence which are still allowed to collect funds, recruit members, and harangue crowds in Trafalgar Square and Hyde Park with calls for political-religious violence. Even today--though post-9/11 Britain has begun to take some limited action against these groups.

On the Continent the policy of appeasement was abandoned in the 80s.

[LivingInTheBubble]

15. Who?

you can't shut groups down just because you dont like them.
Name these groups that carry out terrorism elsewhere yet hide in britain please.
"ties" isnt good enough, its not been good enough to get your chimp and pretty much every western politician out of power yet.

[Paschall]

20. It's not a matter of "not liking" these groups

There are radical Muslim clerics who advocate terrorist violence operating openly in Britain. Advocacy of terrorist/extremist/religious violence should not be tolerated. On the Continent such extremists are rightfully muzzled under hate speech and other laws. Britain has until recently failed to act against such fomenters/organizers of terrorist violence, preferring a hands-off policy of "watchful tolerance."

See http://edition.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/europe/UK/02/28/terrorist.law
Or http://observer.guardian.co.uk/waronterrorism/story/0,1373,882655,00.html

Or Google Rashid Ramdah and Abu Hamza.

[Sufi Marmot]

6. Saponin Fun Facts...

Saponin MSDS

LD50 ~ 813 mg/kg in mice for Saponin extract (not sure how pure this is so LD50 of pure saponin is likely lower=more toxic) link

[SoCalDem]

7. ..."late last year "...

and they chose NOW to release this information..

Looks like somebody's trying to scare the public again.. Someone's poll numbers *cough* Blair *cough* must be dropping like a stone :)

[Sufi Marmot]

8. This story is strange...

Although I'm having a hard time finding listings for saponin in Amersham Bioscience's online catalog, the few documents I've found list saponin as being sold in gram quantities (specifically 100 g), not kg amounts. This stuff is usually sold as an extract from Quillaja bark, at least that's what the Sigma-Aldrich online catalog has. Do they even make this stuff on an industrial scale? How much is actually used for making soap, shampoo, or root beer? At the moment I'm having a hard time envisioning this stuff being made in half-ton quantities - were the alleged terrorists really that naive to think they could get half a ton of it from a biochemical company?

On edit: There may well be industrial scale production of this stuff that I'm unaware of but I have yet to come across it online...



Another MSDS from USB (downloadable as a .pdf) lists the oral LDLo in mice as 3 g/kg, and the LCLo for inhalation at 250 mg/m3/4H in rats. Not an oral toxin but I don't have a good feel for how toxic this stuff is by inhalation...

-SM

[LivingInTheBubble]

16. In this country.

If you are the wrong colour/religion you can be raided for having castor beans.

[kodi]

17. hell, in the US, you order 100mL of hydriotic acid and the DEA calls you

we should be thankful that those idiots the brits caught are in fact idiots. a decent chemist would have been able to figure another way to obtain or make whatever they wanted, if they had planned it out

there are so many ways to make nasty shit from the common chemicals under your own sink that it is amazing that more chemical terrorism doesn't happen.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

9. Bing!

Um... ya.
We all know the UN is just a shill for the Bushco, what with their approving of the Iraq war and all...

Oh, and... uh... Bush was flying one of the planes that crashed into the World Trade Center.

No, wait. Those weren't planes. Those were controlled explosions.

Um... and...


Right. How exactly is this good for Bush? He was the goober who was supposed to go kill 'um terraist. Now he's looking like a little bitch because the same crap keeps happening. Yes. I'm sure a biological attack in DC would just be *great* for him.

Ah, but I forget. Some significant (loud) number of people here think that Bush instigated the 9/11 attacks so that he could take control of...
Oh, christ. It's too stupid to even continue on. Fine. Go ahead and believe that al qaeda is a figment of your imagination. Me? I don't like seeing people die. And unlike most of the crackpot jackass conspiracy theorists, I've actually spent time with people who lost friends and children in the attacks. Oh, I suppose they're living in some CIA safe house in New Guinea... No, scratch that. The 80 year old mother of the pilot of flight 93 was in on it. I spent a day with her, and I never once suspected that she was CIA. I can't figure out where she stored her vial of cyanide.

I don't support the war in Iraq. I think Bush is an idiot. But if you're so goddamn stupid as to be unable to separate your (justified) hatred of Bush from the serious and real threat posed by bin laden, etc, then you deserve whatever you get...

Agh. Why the hell even try reason? I keep forgetting that it was a laser from space, and not an airplane, that blew up the pentagon. As long as this climate of stupidity is tolerated, we're all going straight to hell.

(On edit) That may have come off a bit too strong. Please terminate with extreme sarcasm. :)

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

11. .

What "official" story are you referring to? The fact that planes flew into buildings?
Shit, I guess all my friends who acutally SAW IT HAPPEN must have been working for the CIA. It was a controlled demolition.

Look, I saw Richard Nixon on the scene. We all know who's responsible. HA! And you thought he was dead.

[Paschall]

13. I don't understand your post. Or its relevance to this thread

No one here spoke of 9/11 conspiracy theories before you brought them up.

But, I must say, as an anti-conspiracy theorist, your "argumentation" is somewhat... befuddling. Or you a conspiracy theorist? As I said: befuddling.

Did you take the red pill instead of the blue?

[htuttle]

14. I think he inadvertantly took them both...

....now he's going SIDEWAYS....

[kysrsoze]

18. I agree that Al Qaeda exists and is a definite threat. My problem is....

that everything I've dug up points to the fact that Bush, Cheney, etc., absolutely knew something big was going to happen and looked the other way. It was a perfect "Pearl Harbor" incident PNAC needed to get their mission of lining oil companies', reconstruction firms' and defense contractors' pockets underway.

Just start looking at how slowly the fighters were scrambled when it all happened. Look at how all the intelligence on Iraq was manipulated to make it appear as if Hussein (who used to be our ally) was behind 9/11. Now 70% of the country believes there is a link which is, in reality, not there.

I know there are a few crackpots at DU, but if you take all this, combine it with efforts to eliminate social security, abortion rights, separation of church and state, Medicare, overtime, dissenting opinions, etc., it's absolutely frightening. If you don't recognize the conscious effort to keep the rich rich and screw everyone else, you won't have my sympathy when it happens.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

19. Ummmm. What in the world are you talking about?

This topic has Nothing to do with the UN or 9-11. ????

Did you just feel like slamming?

[teryang]

12. Thank god dim son and poodle are on the job

...to protect us from Dr. No and the terrasts.