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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 08:44 PM
Original message
Chavez film puts staff at risk, says Amnesty
http://www.guardian.co.uk/venezuela/story/0,12716,1090788,00.html

This article seems a bit strange to me. I'd like more confirmation

on the AI staff in Caracas.




An award-winnning documentary about the coup
last year that briefly ousted the Venezuelan
president, Hugo Chavez, has become the subject
of a bitter dispute. Last week, it was withdrawn
from an Amnesty International (AI) film festival
because Amnesty staff in Caracas said they
feared for their safety if it were shown.


snip
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LeftistGorilla Donating Member (583 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
1. a documentary that needs to be seen...
the reason it wont be shown....

The organising committee came under pressure from Chavez opponents in Venezuela

I'm sure the CIA doesn't want people to see it either...
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Terwilliger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. excellent film
chronicles the whole (attempted) coup
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 09:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. the free traders want to replace all the gov'ts with right wingers
Lula in Brazil and Hugo Chavez in Venezuela will keep being undermined by US government operatives.
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 09:18 PM
Response to Original message
4. It was on Democracy Now...
Edited on Sat Nov-22-03 09:22 PM by ezmojason
about two or three weeks ago.

It was the Vancouver local chapter that did it.

The person interviewed claimed it was not shown because
it was not relevent to the issue of human rights.

They made no claim of threat but claimed were trying to avoid
controversy by pulling it from the event.

They seem to have appeased the people who took over the
country abolished the constitution, parliment, and the
courts until a popular uprising restored the democratically
elected president.

Not relevent to human rights, give me a break.




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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. That is why this article seems odd. Changing their story.
But why change the story now?
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not systems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-22-03 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. Fund raising.
I'm thinking about giving up AI and switching to
a less compromised group.

I read a Salon article interview with the head
of AI and was less than happy about sending them
a check every month.

Maybe they can get big money oil oligarchs to kick
in for their work.

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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 06:52 PM
Response to Reply #6
49. It appears that is exactly what happened...
Maybe they can get big money oil oligarchs to kick
in for their work.


A film that won award around the globe and AI caves to the golpistas. Why am I not surprised?
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 01:11 AM
Response to Original message
7. Why don't they make their own damn documentary?
Oh, because it'd just be more of the same shit that "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" debunks.

The filmmakers are very generous by letting AI off the hook, saying it's OK if they were protecting their people in Caracas (and criticizing anyone who claims it was the content that caused the film to be dropped).

However, I'm feeling less generous. What the hell is AI achieving if people can't even say the truth about what's happening in Venezuela?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
8. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 01:58 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. What's inaccurate in it? If you have a problem, state it?
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 02:04 AM by AP
Do you think it was a lie when they show the coup plotters' first press conference where they tear up the consitution? Was it a lie when the filmmakers go to the citizens meetings and listen to those people say racist bullshit? Was it lie when you can hear the bullshit in every syllable Colin Powell and Ari Fleischer utter?

That's the stuff your side SAYS out loud.

Do you think that second camera angle showing that the Chavez people WERE NOT shooting down at anything ... that the streets below were empty... that they were shooting at snipers...do you think that was lie? What was the lie? The filmmakers' version of events or the private fascist media's version of events?

Then there's the scene in Millaflores when the coup leaders "negotiate" with Chavez. Do you think it was a lie when the cabinet member says that the coup leaders threaten to BOMB the pallace, just like they dromped bombs on Allende's government? I have a pretty good bullshit detector, and I could tell that there was nothing contrived in the statements or actions of those cabinet members when they were reacting to the attempted coup.

Do you think it was a lie when Chavez'z AG read's the coup plotters their constitutional rights within hours of the coup plotters declaring the constitution torn up? (And the look on the Coup-AG's face is priceless -- he looked pretty happy that the constitution he tore up was still in effect).

Do you think it was a lie that Comorra robbed the safe?

Where's your side's documentary if this one is so flawed?

YOU KNOW WHAT? YOUR DEFENSE OF THE COUP PLOTTERS IS DISGUSTING. In that documentary, I saw a blood flow from a man's head like someone turned on a faucet because some fascist asshole sniper was taking head shots at Chavezistas.

Have you no sense of decency? At long last, have you no sense of decency?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 07:54 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Odd seeing day three of the poster's anti-Chavez shared thoughts
Democrats would NEVER support the right-wing fascists in Venezuela.

Makes you wonder why someone would come to a Democratic message board and launch his/her own war on democratically elected leaders.

Shows you there's an intense struggle between anal fascists and their ability to face the future, right?

It's revealing that the coup-plotters have become such celebrities among the supporters of the murderous dictator, Fulgencio Batista, who fled to Miami in the early '60's, after Batista vanished, along with most of the contents of Cuba's National Treasury.

As Mika clarified yesterday, the crude criminals Pedro Carmona and Carlos Ortega were featured guests at the pro-Bush,anti-Chavez parade the "exiles" staged in Miami the very day the rest of the world was engaged in demonstrations against Bush's war ambitions.

Clearly, coup supporters are NOT Democrats.


Pedro Carmona, president for a day




proo-coup union boss Carlos Ortega
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DUreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:01 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. "Democrats would NEVER" ? Many do, ie James Carville.
He is working with the opposition media
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:08 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Isn't that a kick in the head?
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 08:24 AM by JudiLyn
I have to admit, it puts him in a whole new light for me. I'm deeply, rawly horrified by his decision. Obviously I just didn't see him properly in the first place.

I guess learning happens in stages, right?

On edit:

I'll bet the coup plotters were absolutely astounded when they realized that their entire assault on the legitimate Presidency of Venezuela had been recorded for posterity by Europeans.

I'm not surprised they are sparing no effort to devaluate the evidence.
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:43 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Unfortunately the people in the slums can't afford his retainer.
Among Democrats who aren't hired guns, I bet you can't find one with a conscience who supports Carmona and friends.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
45. Is he? Do you have a link for that?
I lost the respect I had for Carville when he tried to sell his PR services to help Israel re-make their image. Apparently he was asking for too much money so they turned his firm down and hired a cheaper one.

The man is adorable but I'm beginning to really HATE anyone associated with the DLC. I hope it's only the DLC. I can't take too many more disappointments.

I'd really appreciate a link or some starting info if you have it handy.


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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:23 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. You forget Chavez himself was involved in a failed coup... n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:25 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. Is that right? n/t
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Yes he was, in 1992.
The coup failed and he was jailed.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. After which he was pardoned.
He was elected by a huge majority in 1998.

I just located an article I would have posted somewhere on a Venezuela thread. This looks like a good place.

Describing the role of the media in the Venezuelan coup:

(snip)...The Venezuelan media, mostly privately owned, participated in the coup. The media campaigned against Chavez, provided steady information about mobilization against him, and a free platform for the coup leaders. Once Chavez was arrested the media put a blackout on the mobilization against the coup. Chavez supporters had to physically conquer the broadcasting station so that the messages of the constitutional government could be made public.

The U.S. corporate media has followed the Washington line and served the anti-Chavez oligarchs. Almost all information the media provided related to Chavez's unpopularity. A New York Times editorial applauded the coup, showing how little the editors cared about democracy. Even after Chavez was restored to power, the Times implausibly asserted that the demonstrators against him were the more numerous.

The systematic repression of information about popular mobilization is not unique to Venezuela. The U.S. networks barely showed the angry demonstrations that welcomed Bush on inauguration day, forcing him to give up walking the last mile according to custom. The press routinely minimizes the numbers of demonstrators by a factor of two at least, when it bothers to report about them at all. What happened in Venezuela should be one more alarm bell going off about the dangers of a press controlled by a handful of private interests.

The message is clear: an anti-democratic media is a danger to democracy in the U.S., in Venezuela, and everywhere. (snip/)


http://www.trinicenter.com/world/venez/lessons3.shtml



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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #16
17. I don't agree with coups against democratically elected governments...
I was opposed to the coup against Chavez... I know he was democratically elected.

However, I still can't understand why some people here are such big fans of him, considering his respect for democracy is very low too... he was the leader of a coup too!!!
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PeaceProgProsp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Chavez's coup wasn't vs. a democracy. Do you like G. Washington?
Same idea.

Chavez's coup was a coup FOR democracy, which he ended up getting democratically. Who do you think he beat in that election?
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:53 AM
Response to Reply #19
20. I'm sorry, but Carlos Andres Perez was elected democratically...
even if he was a major asshole.

The Venezuelan bipartisan system was corrupt and didn't benefit the Venezuelan people much. Howver, Chavez coup WAS AGAINST a democratically elected government, it doesn't matter how you spin it.

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #20
27. and it failed. and C. got democratically elected himself. and the assholes
are out of office. and they have a real constitution now.

what's the problem?

Democracy is great. But when the oligarchs and the fascists use democracy to reign holy undemocratic terror on their citizens, we shouldn't stand on ceremony.

Someone should have carried out a successful coup on Hitler.

I'm sure we could make a list of several democratically elected governments which would probably be better off gone.

Pakistan's previous government was totally corrupt and fairly criminal. Their coup was probably somewhere between a wash, and an improvement.

And, perhaps the best thing is the attempted but failed coup to focus the public's attention on matters, followed by a democratic election of those same people.



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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:06 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. I looked around for more info. on the coup
I believe this is relative:

(snip)In 1992, when Chavez was a 38-year-old paratrooper, he led a military rebellion against the incumbent president, Carlos Andres Perez. It was a success everywhere except, crucially, in the capital, Caracas.

Chavez then spent two years in prison, and was released only when Perez was impeached on corruption charges.
(snip)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,683372,00.html

A president impeached for corruption is an invalid President, wouldn't you say?

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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #21
22. Not before impeachment...
He was impeached AFTER the failed coup... thus, he was the valid president, democratically elected, when Chavez led the rebellion.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Wouldn't you think it was his corruption
which caused people to believe he needed to be removed?

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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. A coup is not the way to do it...
Carlos Andrés Pérez was widly unpopular. I have family in Venezuela, and believe me, I've heard their stories. But usually in Latin America, when military leaders push for a coup, civilians get freaked out. This usually means the start of a repressive regime.

I suppose you agree with me (and probably all of DU :P) that Bush is a corrupt pResident. Would you support a military coup against him?

Probably not. Because that's NOT the way a democracy should work.

What was one of the first things Chavez did when he was elected? He brought all the generals who had supported his coup and put them in charge of the military.

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. If only 10 or 20% of the public voted for Bush, and there seemed like
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 10:05 AM by AP
there was no hope for democracy in my life time, and things were taking a decided turn towards fascism, I probably wouldn't spend my days sitting on the couch.

It's alwasy the people with "family in Venezuela" who don't like Chavez. I'm just going to have to guess that this is a class thing. You like the go-slow approach to democracy if you're not the one on the down-side of opportunity. If you're in the majority, that's great. But when 80% of the population are on the down side, and when you being on the up-side plays a big part in that, you're going to have to accept that you'll be enduring some dramatic changes in your society so that people can get a little justice in their bloody lifetimes.

edit: I'll throw this in too -- if the media were playing a huge role in supporting the "democratcially" elected leaders by constantly lying about the truth, I'd have some concerns about how democratic my democracy actually was.
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #29
65. Bush was elected with the vote of 25% of the public...
considering 50% of voters didn't even bother to go to the polls.

My family in Venezuela doesn't have much money, they are always struggling to make ends meet. Please DO NOT ASSUME things you know NOTHING about... they don't have good jobs, they can't even afford to have a fucking phone line in their house!

Sure, the rich people are no longer in power in Venezuela, and I think that is positive.

But... are the Venezuelan people better off now? NO. Unemployment is still very high (and rising), poverty levels have not gone down, inflation has not gone down...

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:56 PM
Response to Reply #65
76. Do you work for an oil company, arcos?
I suspect there is some latent bias influencing your opinion.

This being an anonymous forum, I guess it doesn't really matter how you answer this question, though.
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #76
81. well, you are absolutely wrong...
Well, you are WAAAAAAAY off.

Some latent bias? Only because I don't think Chavez is a saviour? Only because I think the quality of life in Venezuela has not improved?

Private message me if you are really interested in knowing about me.

And please, stop making assumptions about people... it really makes you look bad.

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 12:55 AM
Response to Reply #81
88. The last person who defended the coup plotters here was a...
... guy with the word "trader" in his name. It turned out that he worked for a Houston-based energy company (which he only admitted after cross-examination, and after being presented with evidence of his other posts). He wrote a really nasty post when he admitted that much and then stopped posting. So, I was just guessing there might be a pattern.

You have connections to Venezuela. Oil is a big industry in Ven. You have "arco" in your name.

I don't think it makes me look bad at all to put the clues together.

I'm not going to PM you, because you can tell the truth or lie to me just as easily in a PM as you can in public. If you feel the need to share, feel free to PM me though.
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 01:45 AM
Response to Reply #88
91. yeah... I have HUGE connections to Venezuela...
Edited on Mon Nov-24-03 01:47 AM by arcos
my aunt lives there, in a small city called Barinas!

That means I am obviously an oil company executive who's trying to bring Chavez down!


PLEASE!

What does "arco" have to do? I took my nick from the Arcos 1 fiber optics cable that connects several Latin American countries through the Caribbean sea.

I won't PM since you are assuming I would lie... so why waste my time with you?

I'm a 23 year old Costa Rican webdesigner... LOTS OF CONNECTIONS WITH THE OIL INDUSTRY!

:puke:

on edit: plus... if you check, I never defended the coup plotters. I was very much against that coup, as I am on coups against democratically elected presidents.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 02:49 AM
Response to Reply #91
93. ARCO is an oil company.
Have you seen the Chavez movie, by the way?
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #93
95. Thanks
I didn't know Arco is an oil company. And no, I haven't seen the film but I would like to.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. Checking on Perez I found this snippet
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 09:35 AM by JudiLyn
(snip)VENEZUELA

Venezuelan officials have asked the Swiss authorities for information about three Geneva bank accounts which may be linked to former president Carlos Andres Perez.

Perez was impeached in 1993 on corruption charges and spent time in prison. Officials think he may have stolen millions of dollars. (7/00) (snip)

http://www.swissmoney.net/briefs.htm

NOT a valid president.

On edit:

I'd be interested in hearing you renounce the Bush administration's involvement in the coup in April.

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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #25
26. He was impeached AFTER the failed coup!
He was a VALID, democratically elected president when Chavez led the rebellion.

Was he a mess? Yes. Was he an asshole? Yes. Was he a corrupt? Yes. Was he the democratically elected president of Venezuela in 1992? Yes.

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #26
28. arcos, make a list of EVERY democratically elected leader of the 20th c
and I'll pull out a few from that list who deserved treament worse that this guy.

Also, I'd love to see a breakdown of the circumstances which resulted in the election of that guy, and who actually voted in that election, and whether media coverage of the opposition was fair, etc.

I suspect you're only arguing, "this guy was democratically elected" because that's about the ONLY nice thing you can say about him.

Part of the reason for the coup. I suspect, is that 80% of the population probably justifiably felt their demcoracy was a sham, and their voices weren't being heard.

What if Batista had been democratically elected by 10% of the population of Cuba, and was fucking over the 90% whose votes weren't counted. Are you saying, everyone should sit back and wait for society to change 100 years down the road? Life is to short to sit around and be screwed over by fascists.

What if George Bush had been elected by 20% of the population and won, and then embarked on a program which screwed over the other 80%? Would we sit back and take it?

A "democratic election" which isn't democratic isn't a democratic election.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. Wouldn't you know it? Unless he's moved again, Perez lives in Miami
Gotta stay close to the country's frenzied rightwing extremists.

(snip) Tayler notes that former Venezuelan president Carlos Andres Perez, currently living in Miami, who is wanted on corruption charges in Venezuela and has been accused of involvement in the plot, is a mentor of both Ortega and Carmona. (snip)

http://forums.transnationale.org/viewtopic.php?p=574

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Cuban-Americans often boast that when they moved to Miami, it was a "sleepy little fishing village" and now, because of their presence, it has become a "world-class city!" :eyes:

(snip) When massive political protests forced Bolivia's president to resign last week, Gonzalo Sanchez de Lozada fled to a place where he knew he would find a sympathetic ear. "I'm here in Miami trying to recover from the shock and shame," the ex-president told reporters on Saturday, after being unseated by a revolt against his plan to sell the country's gas to the United States.

Fortunately for Mr. Sanchez de Lozada, there are plenty of other Miami residents who know just how shameful it feels to lose power to a left-wing resurgence in Latin America. So many, in fact, that he could form a local support group for sufferers of post-revolutionary stress disorder.

Possible members: Venezuela's ex-president Carlos Andres Perez, who started living part-time in Miami after his 1993 impeachment on corruption charges; fellow Venezuelan-Miamista Carlos Fernandez, a leader of the failed coup against President Hugo Chavez; Ecuador's ex-president Gustavo Noboa, who tried to flee to Miami in August to avoid a corruption investigation at home; and even Francisco Hernandez, who took part in the 1961 Bay of Pigs invasion, and, as president of the Cuban American National Foundation, has been plotting to overthrow Fidel Castro ever since.

For decades, Miami has been the preferred retirement community for Latin America's regurgitated right wing. So powerful is the Florida Factor in Latin American politics that Joao Pedro Stedile, one of the founders of Brazil's powerful Landless People's Movement (MST), half-jokingly told an audience in Toronto on Monday that if Brazil's elites continue to undermine reforms promised by President Inacio "Lula" da Silva, they could find themselves looking for a South Beach condo. (snip/...)

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1023-11.htm






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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. JudiLyn, the minute your research interests turn to Georgia, let me know.
I'd love to know what's really going on there.

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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. AP, sorry, I'm clueless, don't know a damned thing about Georgia
now, but I'll be open to learning. Gee, I hope it's not going to hurt, 'cause if it's going to hurt my head to learn something, maybe I'd just better not. :dunce:

Haven't paid any attention at all, up to now. (Why spoil a perfect record?)

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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #28
67. As I said in my previous message...
Bush was elected with 25% of the vote... and he is fucking around with not only the other 75%, but with nearly 100% of the world.

And yes, that's the only good thing I can say about Carlos Andrés Pérez. I don't have many good things to say about Chávez either.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:55 PM
Response to Reply #67
75. 50% of Americans chose not to vote because they probably
accurately assume that in a system which is geared towards moderation, their lives might not be dramatically influenced by who's in office.

I hardly think that applies in Venezuela. If 15% of the populatin of Venezuela are making decisions for the other 85%, and race and class correlate highly to who gets to rule, I want to know some more about why that 85% isn't voting. Do they not care? Are there structural reasons. Everytime the 15% start to shit on the 85%, the 85% stands up to get counted, so I'm going to guess the situation isn't the same as in the US.
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:05 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. Do you have a source?
For that numbers? Not talking about race or class... I know it's roughly 80-20%.

I'm talking about voting... where do you get that 85% didn't vote?

I know for a fact that 50% of the population didn't vote in the yes or no election for the new constitution. What do you think of that?

If you know Spanish, I would recommmend this article about the current situation in Venezuela: http://colombia.indymedia.org/news/2003/11/7640.php

It hasn't gotten any better since Chavez is there.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Just guessing.
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 09:08 PM by AP
20% are rich. Say, 15% of them support the oligopoly, those are the people the government was working for. They could control government (whether they all voted or not), until now (hopefully).
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #80
82. well, guess again...
Voter turnout in Venezuela:

1983: 87.7%
1988: 82%
1993: 60.2%
1998: 63.8%

In 1993 they had the lowest turnout... and it still was 4 times as high as your "guess".

Source: http://www.iesam.csic.es/doctrab2/dt-0314.pdf
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #82
87. That's in Spanish. I can't read it.
So can't judge the methodology, what it's actually counting, etc. Is that turnout for registered voters? Was there a literacy requirement for voting? I know literacy rates were very low until recently. Do you have absoute numbers, rather than percentages, and what was the population of Venezuela over that time period?
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 01:39 AM
Response to Reply #87
90. Try this...
Adult literacy rate (%), 1992 : Total 89; Male 88; Female 91

Venezuela has (and had in 1993) universal suffrage for those over 18 y/o, so no, literacy was not required.

Population in 1993:
20,712,000

In 1993, 5,829,216 votes for president were cast, out of 10,000,000 registered voters. That is a 58,29% turnout (slightly lower than the other article I cited). Voting age population was 12,012,960, meaning 48,52% of the voting age population participated in the elections. Still three times your "guess".

http://www.idea.int/vt/country_view.cfm and choose Venezuela in the country menu.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 02:47 AM
Response to Reply #90
92. that's why they're called "guesses"
And I'm still guessing that something is up with those numbers, or with the election...

(I find it hard to believe that 40% of the population is under 18, for example)
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 02:56 AM
Response to Reply #92
94. why do you find it hard to believe?
Edited on Mon Nov-24-03 02:56 AM by arcos
that's the way it is in most latin american countries.

For example, my country Costa Rica:
Age structure:
0-14 years: 30.1% (male 600,812; female 573,375)
15-64 years: 64.4% (male 1,269,667; female 1,241,097)
65 years and over: 5.4% (male 98,156; female 112,985) (2003 est.)

Ok, that's not 40%... but it's still over 30%

Colombia:
Age structure:
0-14 years: 31.3% (male 6,601,581; female 6,447,679)
15-64 years: 63.7% (male 12,931,093; female 13,626,333)
65 years and over: 4.9% (male 913,798; female 1,141,589) (2003 est.)

Ecuador:
Age structure:
0-14 years: 34.9% (male 2,430,303; female 2,351,166)
15-64 years: 60.6% (male 4,116,289; female 4,198,667)
65 years and over: 4.5% (male 284,082; female 329,727) (2003 est.)

Peru:
Age structure:
0-14 years: 33.5% (male 4,828,531; female 4,678,008)
15-64 years: 61.5% (male 8,794,799; female 8,689,072)
65 years and over: 5% (male 652,375; female 767,112) (2003 est.)


There is nothing wrong with the numbers... you were just off by large margin.

on edit: link: http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/index.html
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 03:09 AM
Response to Reply #94
96. It's just the first time I'm seeing these numbers. I will incorproate them
into my arguments in the future.
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pschoeb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
37. Actually Perez had suspended most of the constitution , BEFORE the coup
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 04:50 PM by pschoeb
So who the fuck cares. It was martial law by late 1989, and the "temporary" suspension of the constitution still was in place at the time of the coup attempts. The Government gave the police the power to detain people without warrants, to enter homes without warrants and to seize property without compensation, among other things. People believed there might not even be elections in 1993. One can't hide behind the superficiality of ones "Democracy". Perez's corruption(and the bankers who supported him) led to one of the largest banking collapses ever, it was pretty obvious what was going on.

Patrick Schoeb
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Thank you, pschoeb, for putting things in perspective
It would have been well past this conversation before many of us would have ever learned that information you provided concerning the buffoon,the utterly corrupt President Perez.

What you've shared stimulates some of us to go ahead and find out more about this wildly twisted, contemptible right-wing toad.

I've read that he's very active from the Dominican Republic in trying to destroy Hugo Chavez, and that George Bush, Sr. has met with him AFTER he was run out of town.
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #37
52. El caracazo-- 2000 massacred by the police and military under Perez
<clips>

...1989 Perez was reelected at the height of discontent. He immediately began inflicting an IMF sponsored neoliberal program (El Paquete) on the country. Privatization of state owned industry, elimination of subsidies, devaluation of currency hit the public hard and they screamed out in protest in the form of labor strikes, student strikes, and violent urban riots.
El caracazo

A gas price hike was the last straw and on 27 February 1989 Caracas and other Venezuelan cities erupted. Spontaneously, the masses struck out against bus drivers who had unfairly raised their fares and shop clerks who were hoarding subsidized inventory for later sales. Joining them for 5 days of chaos was the destitute from the slums in the hills that surround Caracas who converged on the valley city looting stores, breaking windows, stealing cars, and generally reeking havoc. The uprising was finally ended by a vicious massacre of some 2000 persons by the police and military.

1990’s

The tone had been set for the next decade. The streets of the capital had become the arena for social discourse. Not only were there demonstrations, protests, and strikes by every imaginable organized group at one time or another, but also different factions of the state, such as the police and military cells began airing their grievances publicly. This practice continues today....

http://www.bolivariancircles.net/english/history1.html

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Sounds like Perez was carrying out a coup against social justice?
Now who the hell is going to defend Perez?

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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:12 PM
Response to Reply #54
69. No one has defended Pérez...
scroll up, read my messages... I've said he's an asshole, several times.

I just don't think Chávez is god.
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #54
89. Venezuelan *democracy* prior to Chavez is described very well in the book
In the Shadow of the Liberator: The Impact of Hugo Chavez on Venezuela and Latin America, by Richard Gott. As much as the movie must be viewed, I consider this a book that must be read. Venezuelan presidents, judicial system--everything, really was set up for one thing--to benefit the oligarchs and to take from the poor. There isn't a country in Latin America that isn't set up this way, yet the US calls them *democracies*. It's a f*ck'n joke. This is why they are so desparate to get rid of Chavez because he represents the poor.

<http://images.amazon.com/images/P/1859843654.01._PE30_PIdp-schmooS,TopRight,7,-26_SCMZZZZZZZ_.jpg>
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #52
97. So glad you introduced this new material.
I took a fast run to google and was stunned by seeing only a couple or three entries in English for Perez and El Caracazo.

I put this first article through the "translator" and find it very interesting, indeed:

(snip) To the few days, 27 and 28 of February , something took place that had not been seen in Venezuela by many years: outbreak social of great spread, in which there were disturbances and sackings on the part of crowds that were destroying everything what they obtained, as much in Caracas as in the neighboring areas of Guarenas, Guatire, the Guaira, Catia the Sea and in valleys of the Tuy. The government had to repress the disturbances with the army in the street and suspending the constitutional guarantees, leaving a balance of numerous died . It is what it is known like the "Caracazo".

The problems did not finish there. Years later, in 1992 two attempts of coup d'etat took place. The 4 of February, a group of officials, tried to take the power. Francisco Aryan Cardinal red, obtained the total control in the Zulia state, catching to the governor of the state, Oswaldo Alvarez Peace Another one of the military, Hugo Chávez Fri'as, ordered to take the capital he was catched, and before the cameras of television of the country, assuming with much valentía the responsibility by the happened thing, declared that "so far", they had to stop in its attempt to change the course of the country.

Months later, 27 and 28 of November, a new attempt took place coup participant, when other officials, Gruber Odreman and Visconti also failed, having to flee towards Peru. (snip)

http://www.nodo50.org/alerta/caperez.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522El%2BCaracazo%2522%2B%252B%2BCarlos%2BAndres%2BPerez%2522%2B%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Dactive%26sa%3DG">~~~~ link ~~~~

Three coups during Perez' term in the '90's. Interesting. Sounds like he couldn't have been much worse for Venezuela.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Learning what Perez did to Venezuela makes some interesting angles in what we can imagine has happened later. I just found this item, which I see in a new light, with more understanding of who Perez was:

(snip) On February 7, Colonel Pedro Soto, former aide to Carlos Andrés Perez (president at the time of the 1992 coup led by Chávez), affirmed that he represented "75% of the armed forces," and publicly attacked the Chávez government. He was then invited by an international institute, a CIA client, to visit Miami and then Washington, where he was briefed in preparation for the coup. Then, on April 11, back in his home country, he went center stage loudly celebrating the "return to democracy," along with other Cuban-American terrorist leaders that Reich planted there. (snip/...)


http://la.indymedia.org/news/2003/03/40966.php

I'm certain I've read that Soto is one of the two officers given a handsome check paid through a bank in Miami for his participation in the coup. No doubt right-wingers see bribes as being completely moral, in their version of moral human behavior.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


This is a translation of an article in which there's a description of the reaction of George Bush, the elder, after an attempted coup during Perez' Presidency. You'll be surprised (oh, sure!) to learn that he DENOUNCED the coup against Venezuela's President. Isn't that quaint?

(In the case with the coup launched against the massively elected Chavez, THIS administration HARDLY condemned that coup. Very odd.
How rigidly right-wing.)

(snip) In Washington, where the permanent advice of the Organization of the American States congregated itself in the beginning of the afternoon and condemned the blow attempt, the department of State continued to exactly consider the situation in fluid Caracas after president George Bush having talked for telephone with Andrés Perez of its house of vacation in the Maine. The president bound "to reaffirm the support of the United States to the democracies in the entire world", said the portavo-voice of the White House, Marlin Fitzwater. (snip/...)

http://www.estadao.com.br/ext/diariodopassado/20021128/000249813.htm&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%2522%2BCARLOS%2BANDR%25C3%2589S%2BPEREZ%2522%2B%252B%2B%2522George%2BBush%2522%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26safe%3Dactive%26sa%3DN">~~~~ link ~~~~

Inconsistant? Not if you believe the only people they will allow to take part in government are going to be right-wing puppets.


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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #52
98. I found some information offered in a court case brought before
the Inter-American Court of Human Rights, referring to some specific victems of the Caracazo bloodbath. (You can ALMOST sense why the idea of a coup against a monster like Pérez was considered after reading this.)

(snip)

II

Facts

2. In Section III of its application, the Commission presented the facts that originated this case, and said that:

a. on February 16, 1989, the then President of Venezuela, Carlos Andrés Pérez, announced a series of structural adjustment measures to refinance the external debt through the International Monetary Fund that were implemented on February 27 that year;

b. on February 27, 1989, an undetermined number of persons from the poorer sectors of the population began a series of disturbances in Garenas, State of Miranda, owing to the increase in urban transport rates and the failure of the Executive to grant a preferential rate to students. These disturbances then extended “to other parts of the metropolitan area of Caracas, and Caricuao, La Guaira, Maracay, Valencia, Barquisimeto, Guayana, Mérida, Maracaibo, and zones adjacent to the transportation terminal”;

c. the disturbances consisted mainly in burning urban transportation vehicles and looting and destroying commercial properties; these events caused extensive damage to public and private property;

d. on February 27, 1989, a sector of the Metropolitan Police was on strike, and consequently did not intervene promptly to control the disturbances. According to declarations of the then President of the Republic, published in the newspaper El Nacional of June 10, 1990, “at the beginning, there was no organized body to prevent or deal with what was happening”; in the same declaration he also said that “upon returning from Barquisimeto, when passing through the area of Caracas near the Presidential Palace called El Silencio, the shattered shop windows; arriving at Miraflores, he called the Minister of Defense and ordered him to mobilize the troops”;

e. the armed forces were entrusted with controlling the situation, and, to this end, about nine thousand soldiers were brought in from the interior of the country; these were young men of 17 and 18 years of age, recruited in February 1989. From statements made by senior Army officers, former Ministers of State and the former President of the Republic, it is clear that the armed forces were not prepared to assume control of public order and the young men who were sent were a danger to the life and physical integrity of the population, owing to their youth and inexperience. Similarly, it is evident that these young soldiers were equipped with assault weapons (7.62-mm light automatic rifles) to control the civilian population, and AMX-13 armored vehicles. The officers used 9-mm heavy-duty guns.

f. on February 28, 1989, the Executive issued Decree No. 49, ordering the suspension of the following guarantees established in the Venezuelan Constitution: individual freedom (Article 60.1, 2, 6 and 10); right to immunity of domicile (Article 62); freedom of movement (Article 64); freedom of expression (Article 66); right of assembly (Article 71) and right to take part in peaceful manifestations (Article 115). According to the Commission, the constitutional guarantees were reestablished on March 22, 1989;

g. during the 23 days that the suspension of guarantees lasted and, in particular, as of March 1, 1989, the Venezuelan armed forces were in control of the territory and the population; moreover, at first they imposed a curfew that obliged people to remain in their homes between 6 p.m. and 6 a.m.

h. during the state of emergency, the State security bodies, together with the Metropolitan Police, the National Guard and the Army, carried out a series of operations to repress acts of violence;

i. according to official figures, the events of February and March 1989 left a balance of 276 dead, numerous injured, several disappeared and heavy material losses. However, this list was invalidated by the subsequent appearance of mass graves;

j. as of February 28, 1989, a secret military plan entitled “Avila” was imposed on the civilian population. This plan was conceived during the 1960s when, according to the former Minister of Defense, Ítalo del Valle Alliegro, there were illegal armed groups in Venezuela. In his words, this plan “was executed, despite the length of time without implementing it”; however, “it had to be revised and updated in view of the new circumstances”;

k. two non-governmental organizations that carried out investigations in situ, as well as international experts, agreed that most of the deaths were due to indiscriminate firing by agents of the Venezuelan State, while others resulted from extrajudicial executions. They also agreed that the members of the armed forces opened fire against crowds and against homes, which caused the death of many children and innocent people who were not taking part in criminal acts;

l. the victims included seven children and five women. Of the 44 cases, 18 occurred on March 1, 1989, or later although the events had ceased as of February 28 that year when, according to Venezuelan Government reports, the situation was completely controlled; 11 victims were killed in their homes, five of these during curfew hours, and the other seven cases were typical of extrajudicial executions. Regarding the circumstances of death, 14 of the victims died as a result of head injuries caused by firearms, three of them received bullets in the neck, 14 in the thorax or abdomen, and five were shot in the back. Another four victims disappeared in the area controlled by the Army and the Metropolitan Police and, to date, there has been no information on their whereabouts. Furthermore, 32 of these cases were pending before military tribunals or were heard by military tribunals (although some of them also being processed under civil jurisdiction) and in none of the cases has there been a judgement that identifies those responsible and establishes the corresponding penalties.

m. in the cases that are the subject of this application, there was a common pattern of behavior characterized by the disproportionate use of the armed forces in the poorer residential districts. This behavior included hiding and destroying evidence as well as the use of institutional mechanisms that have ensured the impunity of the acts;

n. in the days following the events, the State, through the Executive, ordered that an undetermined number of corpses should be buried in mass graves in the sector known as “La Peste I and II of the Southern General Cemetery of Caracas in order to ‘comply with specific health-related instructions’”;

o. at the time the application was presented - nine years after the exhumations were carried out - investigations remain at the summary proceedings stage which was secret; “this means that, ten years after the events occurred, the victims’ next of kin have not been able to gain access to the file papers or ascertain whether the tribunal hearing the case has issued an interlocutory order”. When the victims’ next of kin were informed of the burial, they immediately approached the competent national authorities in order to seek and claim the corpses. At first, state officials publicly denied the existence of mass graves, but the victims’ next of kin presented a series of proofs to the Venezuelan domestic jurisdictional bodies that established the existence of mass graves in the Southern General Cemetery.

p. on November 5, 1990, the Tenth Criminal Court of First Instance of the Judicial District of the Metropolitan Area of Caracas conducted a judicial inspection in the Southern Cemetery to determine alleged irregularities in how the corpses buried in mass graves had been registered and, in the corresponding official record, it “certified that the victims of the events of 27/2/89, buried in the North 6 sector (“la Peste”), are not recorded in the registers…”; and

q. on November 28, 1990, the public was informed that the first remains had appeared in plot number 6 North of the Southern Cemetery General in Caracas. 130 corpses were exhumed; of these only 68 corresponded to persons whose date of death was February and March 1989. On May 30, 1991, the Committee of the next of kin of the victims of the events of February and March 1989 (hereinafter “COFAVIC”), filed a claim before the Tenth Criminal Court of First Instance, owing to a fire in the area of the mass graves.

http://www1.umn.edu/humanrts/iachr/C/58-ing.html

There was a very decent unanimous decision at the end of this document, I believe.



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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #98
101. Notice the strategy: how does Wall St make its money?
Well, you get the country hooked on debt, and then you tell the country to privatize everything, and then you tell the country to raise all the money to pay for its debt every way it possibly can. Since these countries have government which don't represent the interests of the poor, they make the poor carry the burden of paying off the debt. They raise the public transportation fees, which is like a flat tax on the poor. The rich don't use public transportation. So, an increase in bus fares could increase your (de facto) tax burden to 15% of your income, if you're poor, and 0-.0001% if you're rich.

And, as Palast notes, if this destroys the economy, good. Wall St swoops in a buys up all the assets at fire sale prices when companies go bankrupt. When Argentina had its crash, the government tried to pass a low wich prevented foreign ownership of the assets which were securing the loans which the country was defaulting on. Wall St complained more about that than they did about the defaulting loans. Curious, huh? That's because they were waiting for the crash, like vultures, and owning the assets was their exit strategy. Hell it might have been their primary goal.

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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
68. nevermind
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 08:06 PM by arcos
I found a link.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 03:09 PM
Response to Original message
33. Well... Remember the Miami Cubans? And all other LA people who think
they're superior to the masses? Guess who had a campaign against AI?


Straight from vcrisis.com, project of the old ruling light-skinned elite that just can't bring itself to let go of all that lovely money in order to share it with the people:
===================

Amnesty decided not to show Chavez’ documentary
By Aleksander Boyd
London (01.11.03) – On Thursday night

London (01.11.03) – On Thursday night -30.10.03- and after various intents I managed to talk to Mr Don Wright. Mr Wright is in charge of the film festival that Amnesty International will sponsor in its Canadian section and he is also the Regional Development Coordinator, BC/Yukon of Amnesty International Canada. He kindly agreed to listen to all the points that I was so eager to make regarding the screening of Chavez’ documentary “The Revolution Will Not be Televised”. The impression that I got from our conversation, is that Mr Wright and his team were tricked into the belief that said documentary constituted indeed an excellent account of the events which led to the temporary removal of Hugo Chavez from the presidency in Venezuela.

Mr Wright mentioned that the aim of screening the documentary was to provide a starting point of discussion with respect to the Venezuelan political crisis, but certainly did not represent in any way Amnesty International’s viewpoint on the subject. Furthermore he could not understand why we (Venezuelans) were making such a fuss about the festival considering the size of the auditorium where the film was going to be shown (about 30 people).

He did not know that the film expressly omits important facts that, had they be shown, a completely different perspective would be gathered by those who see it, as an example the statement made by Gen. Lucas Rincon in regards of Hugo Chavez’ resignation. He patiently heard my explanation with respect to the film, its conception, purpose, the criticism that Amnesty would have been exposed to owing to the manifest falsehood of the film and taking into account the values and mission statement of the organization.

He was not aware that Hugo Chavez and 25 of his closest aides are being sued in Spanish courts for crimes against humanity, the charges were brought against them precisely as a result of their actions that day -11th April 2002- date among those which the film happens to be recorded, he was also oblivious of the fact that the Spanish Supreme Court found enough grounds to judge them and in 45 days approximately will decide whether to start the prosecution in Spain or to transfer the case to the International Criminal Court, which knows about the case already.

<snip>

http://vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/ab10066

As a result, he sent this email:

This e-mail is to inform you that we have removed the film "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" from our festival and will not be screening it now or in the future. We hope to name a replacement film later today or over the weekend.

I thank you for drawing your concerns to my attention.

Sincerely,

Don Wright
Festival director and
Regional Development Coordinator, BC/Yukon
Amnesty International Canada

I believe it is of great importance for all of us that Amnesty International and Mr Don Wright reacted in a sensible manner. The struggle continues though for purportedly the latest task that Venezuelan Ambassador to the USA has been given is to take a road show with the documentary as the feature presentation. The BBC on the other hand has failed to reply to our numerous requests to enforce the right to reply enshrined in their producers guidelines, but what can be expected from a corporation that is unaccountable even to the government of this country?

My advice for those who continue siding with Hugo Chavez and his “revolution” is to think hard about such stance for the future will bring justice. In this globalized world we live in there is no escaping, unless they are ready to take a long swim in Cuba’s “sea of happiness”.

http://vcrisis.com/index.php?content=letters/ab10066
==========================

Vcrisis is definitely worth perusing if you can stomache wading through filth. You really need to see this film if you are a Leftist. Nothing like the realization that freepers all over the world look and act the same. Their anti-Chavez crowds were hilarious to see in all their finery pretending they gave one hoot about the masses they'd oppressed for years.

Also very amusing to watch Powell and Rice spewing their lies on CNN while their little coup was taking place.

The Revolution was televized and thank God for all those who want to see the extent the ruling classes will go to to keep their power and how a compliant, corporate-friendly media is used to manipulate... Flashes of Fox news.

A movie that must definitely not be missed!



For more information about situation and the film, here's an archived thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=728987
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #33
41. Tinoire, you produced the missing piece
This puts the whole story about what the heck happened with A-I in a whole new light.

Considering some critically important ommissions they've made in recent years, it all starts to fit together.

The very idea the "opposition" got to the Canadian A-I, and wrought this havoc is contemptible, but COMPLETELY characteristic of groups like them.

You may remember the Cuban-Americans mucking around in Europe, twisting arms, behaving very similarly behind the scenes in attempting to pressure U.N. member countries in Cuban matters, also in recruiting provocateurs, "independent journalists," to work for them IN Cuba.

So greatful for your posts. Thank you.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 06:33 PM
Response to Reply #41
44. Anytime JudiLyn
I liked reading yours because they set me off in the right direction! It was your exchange with Arcos that did it so thank you! :)

This entire story is fascinating! I hope we have the decency to leave the Venezuelan people alone and not come to the aid of the ruling class, again.

Peace

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BurntIceCubeTray Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #33
43. light-skinned elite
I'm not convinced that having "light-skin" makes a person better or worse than another. Why would the skin color even be mentioned in this (or any other) case involving political issues like this? I don't see any benefit in using skin color to define a persons politics. Are there no light-skinned decent liberals commenting here? Why the racial division?
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Here. Let me explain a sad reality to you
In the Western Hemisphere, white skin rules. The lighter your skin, the bluer your eyes, the higher on the social scale you usually are because it indicates that you are not descended from a family of slaves but instead from a wealthy colonial European family that owned slaves.

These are the same families still in power in most of Latin America and the Carribean and own the countries' wealth.

That what it has to do with.

And the freepers down there were mostly light-skinned elites very unhappy about Chavez' populist rule.

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BurntIceCubeTray Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #48
51. I'm not buying it
I do not know one single person that considers light-skinned people abover anyone else because of their race. There are very few bigots left and they have no political power. It feels like a red herring to hide another deep rooted cause for political power.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 07:41 PM
Response to Reply #51
60. You don't have to believe everything Edward Said argues. However,
you really should at least read the introduction to a couple of his books befoer you pursue this issue any further. That, or take your theory to some other board where people are less rigorous about the degree to which you need to be informed before you share your opinions.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #51
61. Whom you know is irrelevant
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 07:56 PM by Tinoire
It is totally irrelevant if you know one single person that considers light-skinned people above anyone else because of their race.

The point is that light-skinned people in Latin America and the Carribbean consider themselves above darker skinned people because of their White blood and colonial roots.

You're joking about very few bigots being left right?



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BurntIceCubeTray Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 07:59 PM
Response to Reply #61
64. I was not aware that light-skinned consider themselves above darker
I know it was this way in the past but didn't know it was still taught or followed. I don't live in Latin America and maybe that's why I don't see it. If you say it's so should I just believe it?

If my experience with people is not to be trusted then what should I do?
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. You can pick up a newspaper or read a book. This isn't information which
can only be picked up by travelling to S. America. These are historical and political facts that play themselves out every day.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #64
70. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #70
74. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:19 PM
Response to Reply #64
72. I do live in Latin America...
and although in my country it doesn't happen, in several others it does, like I said in my previous message (#71). Ecuador, Venezuela, Perú, Guatemala...
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BurntIceCubeTray Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #72
73. I'll take your word for it
See? That was easy. I don't see it here, you don't see it in your town but you are closer and see it near you and I believe you. Now all we have to do is fix it.
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #51
71. I have to agree with Tinoire...
That's sadly the reality in most of Latin America. In a lot of countries in the region (Ecuador, Guatemala, Perú, Venezuela), race differences are also class differences. Whites have money, the rest don't. Whites have power, the rest don't.

This has been slowly changing, Ecuador, Perú, Venezuela now have non-white Presidents.

The sad thing, is that the quality of life has not improved for the vast majority of the people in this countries, including Venezuela, where unemployment, inflation, and poverty are still at similar levels under Chavez. He has not been able to improve that.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #71
77. Hi Arcos
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 09:02 PM by Tinoire
Thanks :)

I just erased everything I wrote but can sum it up with this:
Damn what an ugly world.


:hi:
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #71
79. The US gov't isn't making it easy for him. They did the same to Allende
They screw over the government as much as they can on Wall St and use the media to convince peopel the leader is incomepetent. As soon as they get the fascists in, the money spigots open, but it's not becuase the economy is rational. It's because the US taxpayer subsidizes fascism and guaranteed profits for very large corporations.

Same shit, different decade.
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arcos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:18 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. I can agree with you on that...
the US is not making things easier for him.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #83
86. Yeah. So what do you do? Reject Chavez and have a permanent irrational
oligopoly which simply promises that the US will never try to really sabotage it badly, but is highly inequitable nonetheless, or stick with the person who might bring the day sooner when the US can no longer rip off Venezuelans as they have since the 50s?

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 07:29 PM
Response to Reply #43
56. This reveals a shockingly limited understanding of politics and history.
I'm really shocked that someone would make this comment innocently.
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BurntIceCubeTray Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. I can understand your shock
I guess I have lived an isolated life among many of color and have not witnessed the sickness of racism. I apologise if I am hopelessly positive that most people don't use race as any kind of yardstick when dealing with others.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 07:38 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. We're talking about a political & historical reality which has influenced
deeply what has happend on this planet over the last two hundred years.

Didn't you take any history classes in college? Don't you read books?

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BurntIceCubeTray Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #59
62. I understand history but I'm not seeing that which I read in school
Again I apologize if my experiences in life have not been met with racism and have only seen all my friends and strangers argue about the real problem in our world. I'm sure there are still uneducated bigots that don't get it but they are a dying breed thank goodness.
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 07:58 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. Read _Orientalism_ and _Cuture_and_Imperialsim_ by Edward Said
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 07:59 PM by AP
And you won't have to make any apologies.

Edward Said @ Amazon.com
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 03:14 PM
Response to Original message
34. Amnesty Intl in Venezuela calls Canadian decision "censorship"
Censorship of Documentary by Amnesty International Sparks Campaign of Support

Wednesday, Nov 05, 2003 Print format

By: Venezuelanalysis.com

A group of organizations have started a campaign in support of the award-wining documentary film The Revolution Will Not Be Televised, after the Canadian Pacific Region Chapter of Amnesty International decided to exclude it from the upcoming Amnesty International Film Festival to be held at the Pacific Cinematheque in Vancouver, Canada, from November 6-9, 2003. The film was scheduled to be presented at the Festival in order to start a discussion on the current Venezuelan political crisis.

The film is being screened at film festivals and theaters around the world, and it has been the recipient of numerous awards. It has provided insight into a historical event with exclusive footage that reveals details of this unconstitutional and undemocratic overthrow of an elected-leader that were previously omitted by the international mass media.

The atrocities denounced in the film have been documented by Amnesty International in their 2003 Annual Report: http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Ven-summary-eng.

An official from the Venezuelan Chapter of Amnesty International described the decision by the Canadian Chapter as "censorship". "There is no other word to describe it, they just want to avoid controversy due to the pressure from Venezuelan opponents to the government," said the official who asked to remain anonymous.

<snip>

The Canadian Chapter of Amnesty International did not admit that they yielded to pressure from Venezuelan opposition groups who launched a campaign to discredit the film, protecting the coup plotters and discrediting the Venezuelan government. "They just didn't want to generate controversy," said the Venezuelan AI official about the Canadian Chapter of the organization.

A document in support of the film is being circulated along with a signature campaign.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1089
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
35. Statement in Support of the Documentary Film / Petition
Statement in Support of the Documentary Film “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised”
Tuesday, Nov 04, 2003
By: Venezuelananlysis.com / Others

Sign the petition at www.petitiononline.com/vendoc/petition.html

We write to express our deepest support for public viewings and screenings of the award-winning documentary film, “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised.” In light of the recent suspension of the film’s screening at the Amnesty International Film Festival to be held at the Pacific Cinematheque in Vancouver, British Columbia, from November 6-9, 2003, as a result of pressure from opposition groups in Venezuela and their international counterparts, we find it essential to declare our support for this revealing film, which evidences heinous human rights violations carried out during the April 2002 coup d’etat in Venezuela.

“The Revolution Will Not Be Televised” is an extraordinary documentary by Irish filmmakers Kim Bartley and Donnacha O’Briain, who by happenstance were able to document the events surrounding the April 2002 coup d’etat against democratically elected President Chávez of Venezuela. The filmmakers were able to remain in the presidential palace in Venezuela and document while opposition forces violently overtook the government and dismantled Venezuela’s pillar democratic institutions, including the National Assembly, the Supreme Court, the Constitution and the offices of the Ombudsman and Attorney General. The film exposes the atrocious human rights violations committed with the purpose of executing the coup successfully, including:

· The extrajudicial killing of more than 50 people;
· The torture of pro-government supporters and government officials;
· The kidnapping and unlawful detention of President Chávez for a 48-hour period;
· The arbitrary arrest and persecution of pro-government supporters and officials;
· The violation of rights to political participation and self-determination by unjustly imposing an unelected de facto government on citizens;
· The violation of freedom of expression and public access to information by perpetuating a media-led blackout on information during the mass protests demanding President Chávez’s return to power, and distorting news and manipulating images that were used as justification for violence, aggression and the coup itself.

These crimes violate fundamental rights embodied in the American Convention on Human Rights, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, the American Declaration on the Rights and Duties of Man and the Constitution of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela. Amnesty International has documented these atrocities in their 2003 Annual Report: http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/Ven-summary-eng.

The film is presently being screened at film festivals and theaters around the world. It has provided insight into a historical event with exclusive footage that reveals details of this unconstitutional and undemocratic overthrow of an elected-leader that were previously omitted by the international mass media. As protectors and defenders of international human rights, we strongly believe this film is poignant evidence of human rights violations carried out by the coup leaders. By allowing the international public to view this documentary account of the events of April 2002, the audience is able to bear witness to these inexcusable acts and arrive at their own conclusions.

We find it unacceptable that Amnesty International, a worldwide organization campaigning for internationally recognized human rights, would bow down to pressure from groups opposing the film’s subject matter and therefore remove it from its upcoming festival in British Columbia. Amnesty International has decided to eliminate the film from their upcoming festival based on two reasons: 1) Amnesty International claims the film’s subject matter does not address human rights issues; and 2) Amnesty International believes that screening the film would further polarize the Venezuelan people and potentially create more violence within Venezuela.

These reasons are without justification. First of all, the film specifically documents the above-mentioned human rights abuses as a result of opposition forces carrying out an illegal coup d’etat, dismantling democratic institutions and imposing a blackout on information so facts would not be revealed to either the Venezuelan people or the international community. Additionally, Amnesty International independently selected the film as a part of its festival in Canada. Therefore, the organization must have believed the film’s subject matter was in line with the festival theme. It was only upon receipt of a petition from opposition forces in Venezuela and their international counterparts that Amnesty decided to remove the film from the festival schedule. Finally, since the film is currently showing in theaters around the world, its viewing at a festival in Vancouver, Canada would no more affect internal Venezuelan politics than any other screening.

Amnesty International claims to work in pursuit of universal protection and recognition of human rights and to maintain an independence of any government, political ideology, economic interest or religion. Yet, by choosing to remove the film from its festival, it is siding with those groups opposing its factual content and documentary perspective. Furthermore, we view this as an outright case of censorship of this important portrayal of historical events central to the theme of human rights and believe it is deplorable that an international defender of human rights would choose to censor in the face of pressure, rather than vehemently protect the paramount right of public access to information. By taking this action, Amnesty International is perpetuating the blackout on information imposed by the coup leaders in Venezuela during April 2002.

If Amnesty International is truly concerned with the impartial protection of human rights, it would follow that screening a film that exposes horrific human rights violations would be in line with its mission. We therefore urge Amnesty International to reconsider its decision to revoke the film, “The Revolution Will Not Be Televised”, from the upcoming festival in Vancouver, British Columbia. We also reiterate our profound support for this important chronicle of the unjustifiable coup d’etat of April 2002 in Venezuela that resulted in innocent lives lost and harmed and the deprivation of basic human rights.

Initial endorsing organizations and individuals:

International Women’s Human Rights Clinic, CUNY Law School, New York
Venezuela Solidarity Committee in New York
Unión Nacional de Trabajadores (UNT)
Aporrea.org
Opción de Izquierda Revolucionaria (OIR)
Movimineto 13 de Abril - Proyecto Nuestra América
UTOPIA
Juventud de Izquierda Revolucionaria (JIR)
Fundación Cultural Simón Bolívar
Coordinadora Simón Bolívar
Círculo Bolivariano Profesor Alberto Lovera (New York)
Venezuelanalysis.com
Eva Golinger-Moncada
Martín Sánchez


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In defense of "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised"

Through this document we would like express our strong support for the public screenings of the award-winning documentary "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised." Also, we would like to address some false claims made by a Venezuelan opposition group called Recivex, its president Ms. Maria Teresa Van der Ree, and the Venezuelan web magazine El Gusano de Luz seeking to discredit Venezuela’s current government, and to censor the screening of the documentary.

"The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" is an excellent documentary made by two Irish filmmakers who had the luck to be at Presidential Palace at the time the coup d’etat against Venezuela’s twice democratically-elected President Chavez took place in April 2002. The many awards and excellent reviews that this documentary has garnered internationally can be seen at www.chavezthefilm.com. Regardless of one's personal feelings about Hugo Chavez and his government, the film is a historical document, and deserves to be seen.

The well-coordinated campaign to pressure Amnesty International and other groups to censor the exhibition of the documentary is part of an effort to silence those who have denounced horrendous human rights violations that were committed during the coup d’etat against President Chavez and during the dictatorship that briefly replaced him. These violations include:

arbitrary arrests,
extra judicial killings,
torture
kidnappings
persecution,
violation of the rights of assembly and freedom of expression.
All of this occurred under a dictatorial rule that abolished the Constitution, dissolved the elected National Assembly, the Supreme Court, and fired all state governors, the Attorney General and the Human Rights Ombudsman.

Indeed, the film’s main arguments and its account of events can be validated by numerous international media reports and by Amnesty International’s own 2003 report on Venezuela. http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/ven-summary-eng

We would like to address some of the specific points raised by the opposition regarding the film’s content:

First, those who are promoting the censorship of this documentary deny that a coup even occurred, contradicting international consensus on the matter, including Amnesty International’s own description of the events. El Gusano de Luz refers to the dictatorship that briefly replaced Chavez as “the transition presidency”, and Chavez’s removal from power by force as “Chavez’s exit”. They claim that Pedro Carmona, the business leader who assumed dictatorial powers after Chavez’s overthrow, “took refuge in the Embassy of Colombia,” after he was deposed, not mentioning the fact that the former dictator took advantage of the privilege of house arrest to escape from state authorities.

Second, those who oppose the showing of the documentary try to justify the coup d’etat by insisting on the absurd argument that President Chavez had resigned. The film clearly shows government officials emerging from a meeting with the military high command late that evening, saying “Chavez has not resigned,” as the President is led away by soldiers. The fact is that Chavez did not sign any resignation, and that in the event that he had done so, the Vice President should have properly assumed power, not an opposition businessman supported by military officers.

Third, the argument that the showing of a neighbors meeting held in June 2002 to defend against “Bolivarian Circles,” was done as if it happened before the coup, is pointless. The filmmakers don’t claim that the meeting took place before April 11. They present the meeting as an example of how the upper class resents Chavez. It is not presented as subversive or as proof of coup plotting by rich housewives, which is what El Gusano de Luz implies. Arguments by the neighbors, and their concern for their safety, has more to do with the opposition leaders’ and the media’s campaign to implant fear in the minds of the rich and middle classes with claims that hordes of poor Chavez supporters are ready to take away their personal fortunes. It is also a manifestation of the white elite’s fear of a politically active mass of the population, who are mostly mestizo, black and Amerindian.

Fourth, the massive character of the opposition demonstration the day of the coup can’t be denied, and the film does show and say that opposition leaders managed to mobilize massive numbers of people after an extensive media campaign of continuous anti-Chavez political shows and ads during the three days before the coup.

Fifth, El Gusano de Luz refers to the crowd in front of the Presidential Palace on April 11 as “presumed working classes” in a desperate effort to undermine Chavez’ undisputed support by the poor. The support that the President has among the working classes is a fact that is easily verifiable by anyone familiar with Venezuela or by media reports readily available on the internet. It is a fact that thousands of Chavez’ supporters gathered near the Presidential Palace that day, and that music was played and political speeches made at a stage that was later destroyed by opposition militants. The violent character of these militants can be clearly seen in the documentary as they destroy sound equipment used by Chavez’ supporters and destroy a wall to use the concrete blocks as weapons.

Sixth, the President’s orders to the media to carry the government’s channel’s signal was done according to law specifically in cases of national security. It has been common practice by previous administrations, and its use by Chavez was in the context of the media’s obvious involvement in the coup in progress, as admitted by them the morning after.

Seventh, the claim that the journalist Andres Izarra, who resigned from a private television station for not wanting to go along with their “zero-Chavez coverage” policy, now works for the government is a very poor argument in defense of the private media. The media’s unethical practices have been well documented by groups such as Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch and by hundreds of news and opinion articles around the world. See Venezuela's Media Coup by Naomi Klein in The Nation. www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml%3Fi=20030303&s=klein) and Was the White House behind the failed military coup in Venezuela? By Democracy NOW! http://archive.webactive.com/pacifica/demnow/dn20020418.html)

Eight, it is a fact that journalist Luis Alfredo Fernandez of TV network Venevision, who recorded a video of Chavez supporters shooting from a bridge the day of the coup, confessed during the trial of these men, that at the moment of shooting the video, he did not know whom these pro-Chavez civilians were shooting at. Nevertheless, at the time that the video was shown by all the commercial TV channels, the news anchor at Venevision asserted that "they are shooting against hundreds of innocent demonstrators", with the clear intention to incriminate these men and President Chavez. Del Valle Canelon, a journalist for the Globovision TV network, declared during the same trial that in her video one can see the group of pro-Chavez supporters shooting, but against the Metropolitan Police, not against “innocent demonstrators”. Globovision did not broadcast that video (See www.aporrea.org/dameverbo.php?docid=8595 - in Spanish).

Ninth, it is a fact that those accused of the killings of several people that day by shooting from that bridge, were acquitted of all charges during a trial after spending a year and 5 months in jail. During the trial it was proven that the shootings were in self-defense against Metropolitan Police officers and sharpshooters. The trial of police officers accused of the killings is set to start in November of 2003. The Metropolitan Police is controlled by the Mayor of Caracas Alfredo Peña, a prominent leader of the opposition.

Some comments about Human Rights in Venezuela

There is no state-sponsored death penalty or torture in Venezuela, and AI knows that very well. It is totally absurd to assert the opposite as Ms. Van der Ree argues in a clear attempt to mislead non-Venezuelans who are not familiar with the country.

There have been extra-judicial executions in the country, but none of them by the federal government or national police. In fact, the main victims of extra judicial executions and disappearances have been people who are supporters of the government, especially indigenous peasant land activists who have fallen victim of wealthy landowners opposed to the government and the new land reform aimed to redistribute the land. These killings have occurred mostly in states with opposition-controlled government and police.

There is no armed conflict in Venezuela. To denounce “human rights abuses against civilians and non-combatants by both sides during armed conflicts” is completely absurd in the case of Venezuela.

There are no political prisoners in Venezuela. The only ones were those who went to jail as a result of the media’s manipulation of a video showing them firing at an unspecified target. After spending a year and five months in jail, they were exonerated after a trial which demonstrated that they weren’t firing at “innocent demonstrators” but in self defense against police forces that were part of the coup movement. A group of people were recently charged with several crimes for their actions during the coup d’etat in Tachira State. Video footage and witness accounts show that these individuals invaded the governor’s residence, caused the destruction of his property, beat him up, exposed him to public ridicule, and detained him illegally. The charges were brought more than a year after the events and can’t be dismissed as merely political.

As could be seen in the video, in an effort by the government to preserve human rights and dignity, those who participated in the coup received special treatment, including house arrest instead of prison, in spite of the fact the they are responsible for overthrowing a democratically elected government and for the killing of dozens of Venezuelans during the coup and during the repression against grassroots activists and government supporters during the dictatorial period.

The new 1999 Venezuelan Constitution, which was drafted by democratically elected delegates and then approved in a national referendum, is regarded by many as the most advanced in the third world with regard to human rights. Indigenous peoples now have representation in the National Assembly (Congress), women’s rights are explicitly included in the Constitution, elected officials can be voted out of office via referenda, participatory - as opposed to representative - democracy is encouraged, etc.

While some may disagree on the specifics, it is perfectly legitimate to argue that the coup was led by Venezuelan richest elite and supported by the US government.

The dictator who replaced Chavez was the head of Venezuela’s Federation of Chambers of Commerce, which groups the country’s corporate elite. Among those who signed to support the dictatorial decree were top leaders of the Catholic Church and members of Opus Dei.

The main opposition strongholds are located in the upper class neighborhoods of eastern Caracas from where most of the opposition rallies originate, including the massive one organized the day of the coup.

The Venezuelan opposition, part of which is pressuring AI to not show this award-winning film, is led by people such as Venezuelan billionaire and media magnate Gustavo Cisneros who is owner of AOL, Coca-Cola, DirecTV and Pizza Hut in Latin America, Univision in the US, and Venezuela’s biggest TV network Venevision. Cisneros one of the main leaders and financer of the anti-Chavez movement, and is a personal friend of George Bush Senior.

For evidence of US involvement in the coup see compilation of articles “The US and the Coup in Venezuela” at www.thirdworldtraveler.com/South_America/US_Coup_Venezuela.html

American Navy 'Helped Venezuelan Coup'. The Guardian
Venezuela coup linked to Bush team Specialists in the 'dirty wars'. The Observer
Washington channeled funds to groups that opposed Chavez. Sydney Morning Herald
U.S. Papers Hail Venezuelan Coup as Pro-Democracy Move. FAIR
Latin America's Dilemma: Otto Reich's Propaganda is Reminiscent of the Third Reich. Counterpunch
Media accused in failed coup Venezuelan news executives defend themselves against allegations that they suppressed facts as the ousted president returned. St. Petersburg Times.
Regarding the film's representation of historical facts, there is no misrepresentation of the historic truth of the events happened in Venezuela.

A few easily verifiable facts presented by the documentary are:

There was a coup d’etat promoted by the rich elites and supported by the US.
Chavez did not resign.
The media was and still is deeply involved in campaigns to destabilize and/or overthrow the government. Those who want to censor the documentary have their ideas frequently covered and spread by the commercial media.
The majority of those who support Chavez are from the working class and are dark-skinned. This is a fact as solid as a rock, that can’t be denied or refuted.
The majority of those who oppose the President are from the upper or upper-middle class, and are mostly white or light-skinned. This does not imply the majority of opposition is racist or that there is no diversity in their racial composition, but it is a fact that’s easily verifiable. See Racist rage of the Caracas elite by Richard Gott (The Guardian www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,857027,00.html)
Chavez enjoys the biggest margins of popular support for any Venezuelan President at the mid term of his mandate. Opposition-controlled polling companies -the same who predicted Chavez’s defeat in the two elections he won with the highest percentages of vote in the country’s history- place his current numbers between 30 and 40 percent. Other polls give him 50% of popularity. This has led international agencies such as Fitch Ratings and Wall Street analysts to predict that Chavez will win a possible recall referendum on his mandate (See www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1061). All this in spite of having all of the commercial media against him and in spite of the fact that the opposition’s economic sabotage and destabilization has resulted in the worst drop of GDP in the country’s history.
For more general information in English about the coup, visit Vheadline.com at http://tinyurl.com/tlzn

Based on all the arguments above and on the numerous awards and good reviews this excellent documentary has won, we urge you not to give in to pressure by a group of individuals who don’t want to see the truth revealed. Please stand up for your principles and show this documentary. Showing the historical events documented in this film could help prevent a repetition of the tragic events of April 11, 12 and 13 of 2002.

Yours truly,

Venezuela Solidarity Committee in New York
Venezuelanalysis.com
Aporrea.org
Unión Nacional de Trabajadores (UNT)
Opción de Izquierda Revolucionaria (OIR)
Movimineto 13 de Abril - Proyecto Nuestra América
UTOPIA
Juventud de Izquierda Revolucionaria (JIR)
Fundación Cultural Simón Bolívar
Círculo Bolivariano Profesor Alberto Lovera (New York)
Coordinadora Simón Bolívar
Eva Golinger-Moncada

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/docs.php?dno=1008
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 03:50 PM
Response to Original message
36. After the Censorship by Amnesty International
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 03:54 PM by Tinoire
After the Censorship by Amnesty International, we Need to See The Revolution Will Not Be Televised More Than Ever

Wednesday, Nov 12, 2003

By: Macdonald Stainsby

<snip>

A controversy immediately ensued, and it was Venezuelans who support the film who first noticed that the very people from Venezuela that the film exposed as human rights violators had launched a campaign against it globally, wherever people might see it. Don Wright, local region (BC Yukon) coordinator of AI, was interviewed on 'Democracy Now', a radio program in New York run on the station Pacifica. There, the arguments given were (quote): "...when we choose films we strive to choose films that are nonpartisan and nonpolitical to reflect the mandate of our organization." <1> That is a rather bizarre statement, to say the least, for an organization dealing with human rights and coming from a film festival that included topics such as a successful coup in Chile and discussions of Israeli nuclear programs. Perhaps nuclear weapons in the Middle East and military coups in South America are non-political and failed coups in South America are? I guess I'm missing something here. And nonpartisan, well-- I guess the Chinese government will be invited to talk on why it maintains sovereignty over Tibet next year, no doubt that we need balance here.

Another point that seems very disturbing, Don Wright also said: "I think I needed to clarify that the decision to include the film and then to not include the film was very much a local decision...", which will be news to myself, Derrick O'Keefe and Peter Lypkie-- who were all told directly by Don Wright that he would lose his job if he showed the film. Amnesty International Canada would fire someone for showing a movie? That sounds like a pretty dangerous film. Many people attending the festival were told that Amnesty Canada (in Ottawa) had ordered the film pulled. I doubt we'll ever know which of these stories to believe. The first stories were that the film was not about human rights, and that to show this film-- I remind you it's been on the CBC and the BBC as well as elsewhere-- would create further ruptures in Venezuela, possibly leading to more violence. If this sounds just a tad far fetched, it should. Censorship begets lying, which begets more lies to justify the censorship, and on and on.

<snip>

The 'revolution' (as it styles itself) has begun providing health care to the rural and traditionally neglected regions of Venezuela while simultaneously empowering people through vast education campaigns as to the rights and duties of the citizen under the hyper-democratic provisions of the new constitution (itself written by a democratically-elected assembly and then approve in a referendum by the entire population). This has earned this government the wrath of the traditional ruling elites who have much to lose if the population is able to emancipate itself. This culminated in the US helping work with the 'opposition' (traditional ruling elites) to foment a military coup last April 2002. The extraordinary events of the coup, including the mass uprising of the people against it, are all documented from the inside out.

The Venezuelan media are, in what AI called the "world's first media coup" in their original description, shown to be more than mere supporters of the coup. They blacked out the pro-Chavez demonstrations by decree, asked the population to help overthrow the government; they were even thanked at great length individually during the brief time of the dictatorship! The one channel that the government controls, channel 8, had it's signal cut during the coup. The coupistas even tried to use the media to say they still had power long after power and the military had been returned to civilian and constitutional rule.

<snip>

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1053

If you want to get your hands on your own copy of the film, please contact me at mstainsby@tao.ca with a phone number and I will contact you when the cassettes are ready in the near future (to be sold at cost). Be a rebel: see the film that Amnesty censored.

Contact AI Canada and demand they include the film across the country, this is a traveling festival. 1 800 AMNESTY (266-3789). email: pro@amnesty.ca and info@amnesty.ca


Venezuelanalysis.com note: You can order copies of the documentary by contacting the producers through their website www.chavezthefilm.com

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1053
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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 05:06 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. This movie is so damning of the CIA and the coup leaders.
That's the reason it can't be shown.

That's why the fascists are so worried about it.

And Amnesty Int'l has damaged its credibility with me beyond repair.

Assholes.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 06:15 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. AP, I can't locate which of your posts describes the shots from the bridge
but I just ran across this event in an article and wanted to call it to your attention before finishing the K.C. Chiefs game. (Go Chiefs!)

I'm sure you read this a long time ago but it's good to see again, as it shouldn't be forgotten:

(snip)Chávez told The Washington Post that four foreigners fired high-powered rifles on the crowd from the Hotel Ausonia. They were arrested by the military unit responsible for protecting Chávez, but released the next day by Carmona’s junta. They have since disappeared. Venezuelan police say at least five of those killed were shot in the head from above.

http://www.natcath.com/NCR_Online/archives/053102/053102j.htm

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AP Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 07:34 PM
Response to Reply #40
58. When you see this documentary, the image of the people shot in the head
by the coup snipers will never leave you.

As I've said here, I saw blood run from a man's head as if someone turned on a faucet. And for what? To justify a fascist coup. For money and power. If I ever love money and power so much that I would consider doing something like that, I would sooner put a bullet in my own head than put one in the head of innocent person fighting for democracy and social justice.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #38
42. I think just the Canada branch though but check this out
Was scratching a little and found that Amnesty International was retraining all the country's judges in, get this, in cooperation with the same OIL companies that were implicated in the coup. Do you find this just a wee bit bizarre? I'm going to tuck this little factoid away until more information comes forth. It still doesn't make much sense though because I think the film has been shown at other AI film events. Anyway, interesting factoid...

----
Total Fina Elf, Statoil and Chevron Texaco are the three largest multi- national energy companies involved in the Venezuelan energy sector. Both Statoil and Chevron Texaco took the decision to invest in Venezuela in spite of the turmoil and uncertainty from April to December 2002.

and more Venezuela/oil/coup info here: http://informationclearinghouse.info/article5078.htm
----
Statoil in Venezuela

Sponsoring human rights project to train judges

Statoil Venezuela has been sponsoring a human rights project since 1999 which aims to train Venezuelan judges in human rights.

A joint effort between the UN Development Programme, Amnesty International, Venezuela's central Escuela Judicial and ourselves, this scheme provides an interesting example of cooperation between an international organisation, an NGO, a government authority and a business corporation.

<snip>

One aim is for the project to be incorporated in the Escuela Judicial as part of the induction programme for all new judges entering the Venezuelan judicial system.

http://www.statoil.com/STATOILCOM/HMS/SVG03116.NSF/0/0574AFEF513F6A6DC1256D49002E4F7C?OpenDocument

===========
STATOIL PROMOTING HUMAN RIGHTS

<snip>

The task of protecting Venezuela’s fragile grip on democratic stability has fallen to all sectors of society in recent times – including the corporate world. Three years ago, when the newly-elected government of president Hugo Chavez introduced judicial and constitutional reforms to improve the country’s patchy record on human rights, one business in particular – the Norwegian oil company Statoil – felt it could make a contribution.

<snip>

To aid with this re-education, Statoil Venezuela helped set up a partnership with the local branch of the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), the local chapter of Amnesty International, and the branch of the Venezuelan judiciary responsible for training and administration: the Consejo de la Judicatura, now known as Tribunal Supremo de Justicia.

<snip>

Ensuring that each partner has a clearly defined role that suits their skills has been important to the partnership’s success. Tribunal Supremo de Justicia has organized the training, Amnesty International provides interactive sessions and presentations on human rights issues, and the UNDP co-ordinates the entire project, which Statoil supports through a financial contribution. Throughout the programme, the company has deliberately kept a low profile.

<snip>

Whatever the benefits to the partners, however, the hope is that Venezuelan society will be the biggest winner. ‘The most important long-term result is the partnership’s contribution to a change of mind-set in the legal community,’ says Fernando Fernandez of the Venezuelan chapter of Amnesty International.

<snip>

http://www.ethicalperformance.com/best_practice/0403/case_studies/statoil.html
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 06:49 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. '...train Venezuelan judges in human rights'
From the article: Statoil Venezuela has been sponsoring a human rights project since 1999 which aims to train Venezuelan judges in human rights.

This is probably like the US sponsoring *human rights* in Colombia by training their military at the SOA.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. I agree... It seems very strange
and I'm concerned about why Amnesty International would team up with them on this project. But I honestly don't know enough about this. It seems Statoil had taken a few beatings with the Norwegian people/activists for working in Nigeria where the Human Rights abuses were excessive and that they were doing this in Venezuela... out of the goodness of their heart and to help Chavez.

What really bothers me is that AI has a fine reputation so this is either a mistake in judgement, an anomaly or time for a new :tinfoil:

I am going to order this film and start digging more about this.

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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Someone pointed out in one of the top posts that they read a
salon.com interview with the head of AI and it just added to the feeling he had about not being happy with them recently. He suspected like I do...funding. It's possibe that $$$ has an influence. But I agree, let's hope that it's poor judgement. I did see an article recently though about the US having way too much influence on them, just like they do with the UNHRC.

Peace!!
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Say_What Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 06:43 PM
Response to Original message
46. Why the Bullsh*t? AI in Venezuela said something quite the opposite
that wasn't too complimentary to AI. It would be interesting to see who AI's major contributors are....
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BurntIceCubeTray Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. This film could be what it takes to finally move the US to the far left.
The first and foremost goal needs to be to disarm the neocons so the transition is not too bloody. The AWB and gun regristration should be stealthed into play as soon as we take the WH in 2004. After a couple of terms of our control the neocons can be safely disarmed and then the policies of our more leftward leaders can be applied. It will take some time but it should not be more than a term or two of our leadership to complete.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #55
84. Perhaps it would be if it was AVAILABLE!
Edited on Sun Nov-23-03 09:36 PM by lostnfound
In this era of DVD copying, it's REALLY disappointing that I can't just order a copy over the Internet.

I'd be glad to pay $20, $30 or even $50 if I could get one, but I hear that the film is really hard to come by and expensive even to rent. That is no way to get a message out.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-23-03 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Check the bottom of post 26 - Film is available n/t
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #85
100. Thank you very much -- (Post 36 by the way, for others' sake)
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #100
102. Damn typos! Lol Thanks n/t
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pescao Donating Member (716 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 04:51 AM
Response to Original message
99. they've really shot themselves in the foot with this one
like, how much extra publicity for the film has this all generated?! "the film that even amnesty tried to ban..." and btw on the subject of amnesty having sold-out here's the obligatory greg palast quote, from http://www.gregpalast.com/detail.cfm?artid=212&row=1

In Canada, where libel laws are similar to Britain’s, Frank magazine had picked up my story. Frank swiftly grabbed its ankles by running that incredible retraction–that no one had been “killed or injured” in the mine clearance. The editor apologized to me; they simply had no resources to fight billionaires. Who could blame them? The first report of the alleged killings in Tanzania came from Amnesty International, whom I quoted. I called their headquarters in London. Courageously, Amnesty refused to help. The organization whose motto is “Silence is complicity” announced that, on advice of lawyers, they would be silent.
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Tinoire Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-24-03 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #99
103. Wow
A much sadder version of "Drawing on my fine command of the English language, I said nothing."


Wow.
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