CNN Breaking: Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze RESIGNS

[nostamj]

too recent an announcement for a link but here's a related story that should be updated soon.


http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/europe/11/23/georgia.protests/index.html

[Rose Siding]

1. Here's the ABC report

Georgian Leader Signs Resignation Papers
Opposition Says Georgian Leader Signing Resignation Papers, Thousands of Opposition Supporters Gather

http://abcnews.go.com/wire/World/ap20031123_456.html

[mobuto]

2. This is going to make for some very ugly

behind-the-scenes (lets hope it remains behind the scenes) posturing between Russia and the United States.

Whither Abkhazia? Whither the Baku pipelines? Whither the Pankisi Gorge and the rest of North Ossetia? There are lots of competing interests in that poor country, and now it gets scary.

[0007]

3. Now lets hear it from James A. Baker III

[UpInArms]

9. sounds like shades of Florida 2000

http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20031103-022408-5628r.htm
(digusted by using a link to the Moonie Times - but...)

Leader of the National Movement opposition party Mikheil Saakashvili was among tens of thousands who were denied the right to vote on Sunday. His name, along with names of many thousands across the country, was missing from the voter list prepared by the Georgian government. Entire neighborhoods were mysteriously removed from the voter list in the areas where opposition was likely to do well. The lists were instead full of people who have long been dead. A 24-year-old student, Zaza Chkhenkeli, said he could not find his name in the list, but found instead the name of his grandfather, who has been missing since World War II.

[nostamj]

10. sounds like they read Palast on *'s tactics

and thought they'd give it a try.

how I WISH we had done the same... esp. considering how unimgainably BAD things have become

[Jack Rabbit]

12. From Pravda

From Pravda (Moscow)
Dated Wednesday November 5

"White Fox" has been defeated
Elections for Georgian parliament have been recognized valid

This is the only thing that can be said for sure about the "people's choice" in Georgia is that the elections that took on Sunday, November 1. More than 50 per cent of voters participated in the elections (according to the Georgian law, the elections are recognized valid if one third of the electors voted).
However, there were some excesses - elections have been recognized not valid in 17 polling stations which will have another voting procedure in two weeks. But this is not a significant problem because the past elections in Georgia had more than 2800 polling stations.
According to the preliminary estimates, the renewed Georgian Parliament will have only four out of more than three dozens parties and political organizations which could obtain more than 7 per cent of votes. They are pro-president bloc For new Georgia, which became a leader, Saakashvili - People's Movement bloc which has the second position and the Labor Party (third position) . . . .
The elections in Georgia were conducted in accordance with the plan of the former US Secretary of State James Baker who is a friend of Shevarnadze: five members of the Georgian Central Election Committee were appointed by the government, the other nine represented opposition, and the chairman was the respectable representative of the Georgian society who is not active in politicis. This position was filled by Nana Devdariani who was the Representative for Human Rights (called in Georgia as People's Defender. But many in the opposition consider her to be recommended by Shevarnadze which contradicts Baker's plan. The plan also failed in the point of preventing from violence. The incidents of violence created by opposition resulted in bringing additional military forces in some of Georgian towns, for example Rustavi and Zugdidi). In these two towns the authorities demonstrated too serious reactions - local residents only protested against the mistakes in the lists of voters.

Yes, again it looks like the Bushies tried to rig an election. This time, unlike Florida 2000, the people fought back and wouldn't let them have it.

[ozymandius]

24. James Baker! James Baker! James Baker!

The man is a menace to populism - to democracy even!

Not only is this the man who argued Bush's case before the Supreme Court (to shut down the vote tabulations) but his firm, Baker and Botts, represents the Saudi interests in the $1 trillion lawsuit filed by the survivors of the 9/11 victims.

Everything this man touches reeks of corruption.

[Jack Rabbit]

30. Yes, Baker is a menace to democracy

However, Bush was represented before the Supreme Court by another menace to democracy, Ted Olson.

[alcuno]

13. I heard some anchor say, "we are seeing democracy in action."

What???

[mobuto]

19. Except Mr. Sakashvili is no Al Gore

he's an ultranationalist zealot, and people associated with him were engaged in some very nast ethnic cleansing in the early nineties.

I'm not sure there's a good guy in this fight. Shervadnaze has been an enormous disappointment.

[Bozola]

27. Also keep a close eye on these players

Itera - the murky, thought to be, private front for GazProm. Based in Jacksonville, Florida (does this catch your attention?).

GazProm, the Federally owned Russian gas company

Tbilgaz the quasinational gas company

http://www.rferl.org/nca/features/2002/10/01102002163526.asp

http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/company/cnc24263.htm

[Pompitous_Of_Love]

39. Ultranationalism IS Georgian politics

Shevardnadze was about as close as it's gonna get for Georgia re-orienting (pardon the pun) itself as a democratic member of Europe. Saakashvili went to school here, so he knows how to play to an American audience, but I wouldn't be surprised to see him turn out to be a Zviatist. The Georgian Orthodox Church is conspicuously anti-Western and has done everything within its political power to block any legislative reforms it deems threatening to its own interests. It also has a nasty habit of organizing attacks against non-Orthodox denominations, both Christian and non-Christian, injuring people and destroying property. The Russians will do everything in their power to keep the country in turmoil and at least one local warlord has vowed to secede from Georgia. If folks in Tbilisi think things suck now, they ain't seen nothing yet. Shevardnadze could have been the father of a truly democratic and prosperous Georgia. That he either couldn't or wouldn't will haunt his nation for decades to come. Georgians are going to find out that narrow provincialism comes with a devastating price tag in that geographical neck of the woods.

[mobuto]

20. Please explain

n/t

[Jack Rabbit]

22. See post number 12

Baker was involved in planning the recent elections in Georgia; Baker is allied with Shevarnadze; the elections were condemned by international observers.

As also pointed out in post number 12 and elswhere, this isn't the first time Mr. Baker's name has been associated with a suspicious election and the beneficiary of election irregularities.

[mobuto]

23. I think that's simplistic

Its true the US has backed Shervadnadze very heavily (although just as much so under Clinton as now), but I think you're oversimplifying the issues at stake. Shervadnadze has been promoting conflict in his country between America and Russia as a means of generating income (we give Georgia a sizeable chunk of its GDP in foreign aid) and in holding power. He's been too clever by half, and his country has suffered under him, but what's the alternative? His enemies are tribalists and ultranationalists who everybody says will begin another round of Georgianization and even ethnic cleansing, who stand for nothing except isolation and an almost Kim Jong Il-ish glorification of adversity. These are very dangerous people, they're going to piss off the Russians by tolerating Chechen rebels, they're going to piss off the Bushies by screwing over our pipeline consortiums, they're going to piss off ethnic Russians, Abkhazians, Ossetians, etc. with nationalizing bullshit, they're going to margianlize those tribes of ethnic Georgians identified with Shervadnadze, and they're generally going to make a whole mess of things.

[Jack Rabbit]

26. It could be simplistic

We don't know that Baker planned any of the irregularities that marred the voting earlier this month. After all, he problably didn't plan any in Florida, either. His association with the Florida election was to be part of plan B (don't count all the votes) after plan A (don't let everybody vote) didn't work as well as the Bushies hoped it would.

And I certainly agree that the fact that Shevarnadze was a disappointing leader who had grown more autocratic in time does not make Saakashvili the answer to all of Georgia's problems. Indeed, he could make thngs worse.

Nevertheless, this about a lot more than Shevarnadze and Saakashvili. This is about the sanctity of free elections and the right of citizens to choose their own leaders. We know how Mr. Bush and the people around him feel about free and fair elections. They think they are a nuisance and that they are under no obligation to respect the results. As Dr. Rice said about Hugo Chavez, "Legitimacy is something that is conferred not just by a majority of the voters."

Like hell it doesn't. As long as citizenship is universal and equal and a set of civil liberties in guaranteed to assure free and open discourse on civic affairs, a majority of the voters is all it takes to confer legitimacy in a free and fair election.

[mobuto]

28. Ok that's fair

but I think there's often a willingness to look for a good guy in a struggle that has no good guys, and I was responding to what I thought were efforts to make Sakashvilli and his thugs into "good guys."

I am a committed small-d democrat, but I am still worried about its shortcomings. What do you when a majority of the population supports Adolf Hitler (Germany, 1934), Pol Pot (Cambodia, 1975) or Osama bin Laden (Saudi Arabia, today)? Hitler won almost 90% of the vote, and while bin Laden and Pol Pot wouldn't have gotten that, they would still win by wide margins if there were elections.

There isn't a clear answer to this, so far as I've seen. Its like what Winston Churchill said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others."

[Jack Rabbit]

29. Democracy indeed has problems

I've put this up before, but I define democracy as a state where:

• Citizenship is universal. All native-born children are citzens; all children born abroad of at least one citizen parent are citizens; all non-citizens who swear allegiance to the state in a process of naturalization are citizens.
• Citizenship is equal. All citizens receive the right to vote upon reaching the age of majority. All citizens have the right to participate in and influence public affairs. Leaders or representaitves are chosen on a one man/one vote principle.
• Citizenship is inalienable. A set of guaranteed civil liberties is in place to assure full and open discourse on civic affairs. No citizen shall be deprived of his citizenship by the state for expressing a minority point of view, no matter how unpopular or outrageous.

It should be noted that this is an ideal definitiion to be used in Socratic dialogs. It is an ideal by which to measure the real. No perfect democracy exists or ever will.

Nevertheless, by applying that standard, none of the examples you name could be considered democratic. For example, by 1934 Nazi Brownshirts were intimidating Hitler's opponents into complicity and, since Hitler was Chancellor, the government did nothing to stop them. Where are the guaranteed civil liberties in that arrangement? Of course, with the passage of the Nuremberg Laws in 1935, Germany took another step back from democracy as citizenship ceased to be universal by the exclusion of Jews.

[mobuto]

31. Well, as for Socrates

I think Socrates comes across, in the Dialogues, in Thucydides and in other accounts (Aeschylus, Aristophanes, etc.) as quite contemptuous of democracy. But that's a discussion for another day.

For example, by 1934 Nazi Brownshirts were intimidating Hitler's opponents into complicity and, since Hitler was Chancellor, the government did nothing to stop them.

I think that's a ruse to get people off the hook. Nobody was forced to vote for Hitler and the ballots were secret. If you were really scared that your vote might be revealed, you could have stayed home. But an enormous percentage of the German population turned out to support Hitler.

Likewise, any election in Saudi Arabia today would almost certainly be a mess. But every poll shows Osama bin Laden to be the most popular "political" figure in the country. If everybody were granted one vote, and even if there weren't armed mullahs roaming the streets, I think its safe to say he'd win easily. At least that was true a few months ago - I haven't seen polls since the latest round of government crackdowns and terrorist attacks.

[Cocoa]

33. you're right about not oversimplifying

but it's also important to question your negative portrayal of the opposition.

I have absolutely no knowledge of the opposition, but are you sure your portrayal of them is not demonization? Where did you get your impression, and is it disputed by anyone?

[Jack Rabbit]

34. Saakashvili is not acting like a political thug at the moment

From the BBC piece (link in post number 4), updated at 19:21 GMT (11:21 am PST):

Mr Saakashvili said that another opposition leader, Nino Burdzhanadze, would serve as acting president until new elections were held within 45 days.
He said he would be working alongside her, with help from Mr Shevardnadze, to maintain stability and peace in Georgia.
Mr Saakashvili also urged protesters to take down their barricades in Tbilisi and reiterated pledges to guarantee the safety of Mr Shevardnadze and his family.
"The president has accomplished a courageous act," he said.
"By his resignation, he avoided spilling blood in the country... History will judge him kindly."

[Jack Rabbit]

4. BBC link: Embattled Georgian leader quits

From the BBC Online
Dated Sunday November 23 17:02 GMT (9:02 am PST)

Embattled Georgian leader quits

Georgian President Eduard Shevardnadze has resigned amid massive protests over disputed election results.
The announcement came after Mr Shevardnadze met the main opposition leader, Mikhail Saakashvili, at his residence in Tbilisi.
Earlier, Russian Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov had left the meeting, saying his role as mediator was over.
Tens of thousands of people are on the streets of the capital Tbilisi celebrating a "velvet revolution".
Mr Saakashvili had earlier threatened to lead a march on the president's residence in the suburb of Krtsanisi unless the president stood down.

Read more.

This, my fellow DUers, is the proper way to handle crooked elections:



Photo from the BBC

[calimary]

17. Dear God! "A VELVET revolution." How cool! Why can't that happen HERE?

Or are they gonna get Ted Olson and some of those other fun folks to manipulate the people's choice out of there?

[Atman]

5. It begs the question...

How to we force Bush to resign, too?

Well, it begged it for me, anyway. But then, I think of that question when I eat Rice Krispies, mow the lawn, wash the dishes, watch teevee, go to a movie, take my kids to school, go to the market, change my oil, vacuum the living room, hand a picture, clip my toenails,.............

[Nlighten1]

7. this is a good blueprint

for getting rid of Bush

[calimary]

18. wash my hair, feed the cats, pick up the kids, eat dinner, go online,

work at the Mothers Club meeting, work on the Christmas ornaments, update my website, answer my emails, run to the grocery store, go to cardio...

[drool_n_yank]

6. He was acussed of stealing the election ?

If so is Shevardnadze the Dubya and the opposition leader the Gore . I'm sure its not as clear cut as that , I dont know much about it , is the resignation a good thing or bad ?

[Jack Rabbit]

8. Yes, Shevarnadze is accused of stealing the election

From the BBC Online
Dated Monday November 3

Observers condemn Georgia poll

International observers have issued a damning assessment of Georgia's parliamentary election.
Over 400 monitors from several European democracy watchdogs said the poll on Sunday was marred by "spectacular" voting irregularities and fell short of a number of international standards.
In particular, they said that many voters in the former Soviet republic had not been registered in time to vote and there had been delays and confusion over voter lists.
With about 50% of the votes counted, a political block supporting President Eduard Shevardnadze had a clear lead, but it appeared to be trailing behind the total number of votes taken by major opposition parties.
First official results from Georgia's central election commission showed that the pro-government bloc For a New Georgia, headed by Vazha Lordkipadnidze, had about 27%.
The opposition National Movement bloc, led by former justice minister Mikhail Saakashvili, had around 23%, with the Labour Party in third place on 15%.

Read more.

[mobuto]

21. Neither parallel is apt

Shervadnadze stole (or rather tribal allies of him did) the election from a bunch of ultra-nationalist wackos. So you have a choice between an incompetent dictator and, well, some really scary people.

Then you also have American troops and Russian troops in the country, as well as a whole mess of Chechen rebels and maybe a few Al Qaeda people, two enormous pipelines (one oil and one natural gas), about thirty different ethnic groups - all of which hate one another, two seperatist provinces who have waged war on the government, and you've got a recipe for complete and utter chaos.

[markses]

11. What we got to say

Power to the people, no delay.

- Public Enemy

[dusty64]

14. And here I thought

all the talk about rigged elections in Georgia were references to the 2002 election in the US.

[Jack Rabbit]

15. Rim shot!

[jmcgowanjm]

16. Similarity of Jacko/Schevardnadze/USGov't

Everybody's ready to party w/ you as long as
your buying.

Although foreigners have been financing the
current-account deficit for more than a decade,
the necessity for exorbitant inflows is finally
catching up with the United States. The deteriorating
trend in net US portfolio inflows suggests a
growing reluctance by foreign private investors
to shoulder this burden. Currency traders seized
on September's sharp deterioration in capital
flows, pushing the dollar to a record low against
the euro. However, the trend has been clear for
months. It is not particularly a pretty sight, and
it is not particularly reassuring for the global
financial system.
(Copyright 2003 Asia Times Online Co, Ltd.

Watch Forex traders busted, Spitzer, GATA
Gold Monday.

[maggrwaggr]

25. The Georgian people show us how it should be done

when you've got corrupt leaders in control, you can't use the standard methods to get them out. They've taken over the standard methods.

The American people have no shame whatsoever or they'd have already done exactly this.

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

32. Do you think the US could ever be so lucky?

considering the rigged election in the US and all?

Maybe the Chimp could evacuate to Georgia and fix that country's economy.

[grasswire]

35. remember....

...that Governor George Bush libeled Shevardnadze in one of the presidential debates, and Shevardnadze filed a lawsuit against him. The accusation was corruption -- taking U.S. dollars sent for humanitarian purposes, IIRC.

[qanda]

36. FAUX anchor said that Bush* deserves the credit for this!

Because of his push to spread Democracy around the world. WHAT?????

[Jack Rabbit]

37. Fox will say Bush desrves credit . . .

. . . for the sun rising in the east every morning.

[maggrwaggr]

38. They should say that * deserves the same treatment

He needs to be thrown out and introduced to a nice lamp post.