Russians fume at Mormon scheme to buy `dead souls'

[dArKeR]

The church has been paying an impoverished Russian archive US$0.10 a page for the names of dead people, to be used in its rituals

THE OBSERVER , MOSCOW
Monday, Nov 24, 2003,Page 7

The Russian Orthodox Church has expressed its outrage at what it claims is a Mormon scheme to buy up the names of dead Russians in order to baptize "dead souls" in their faith.

In one archive, in the town of Nizhni Novgorod, east of Moscow, the Church of the Latter Day Saints has paid US$0.10 for each page of thousands of names of dead people dating mainly from the late 18th century to be put on a microfilm.

The idea, the last-ditch attempt of a cash-strapped archive to fund urgent preservation work, has caused fury among the predominantly Orthodox nation. The Mormon Church is angry at what it sees as an obstruction to its religious practices.

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/world/archives/2003/11/24/2003077098

I'll take Trick or Treat over baptizing dead souls any day of the week. Imagine how a Mormon explains that one to kids who want to have a party and collect some candy!

[Loonman]

1. Do they read the dead peoples names out of a hat?

:evilgrin:

[DCDemo]

3. It's actually quite offensive

A member of the Mormon Church temporarily takes over the identity of a dead person, claims to be a Mormon, and thus "is saved".

Kinda funny this news after South Parks' take on Mormons last week....

Dum dum dum dum dum

[ixion]

13. yeah, I was thinking about the South Park episode, too

The timing is really interesting. I think SP did a great job at describing how the mormon religion got started...dum dum dum dum dum.

Mrs. Harris...smart smart samrt smart smart. :-)

[notadmblnd]

5. No, they baptize them by proxy

so all the men will get their own little planet to be god of.. and the women (reason for the plural marriages) will populate it.

[displacedtexan]

2. Too weird for color TV

when your entire life is based solely on your religious community, i guess this kind of crap makes sense.
Remember Salem!

[kodi]

4. how ripe. Nikoli Gogel is turning over in his grave

and about to become a mormon too!

[Muddleoftheroad]

7. I like Stalin better

The image of Stalin being baptized ANYTHING is pretty amazing.

[mobuto]

91. No, you miss the irony

Nikolai Gogol wrote a book, Dead Souls, in which he, well, predicted this. A guy comes and buys the souls of dead serfs, and there are many hijinks as folks try to discern his motive. If the Mormons didn't exist, we'd have to invent them they're so wacky.

[kodi]

112. glad you see the irony too, gogol is my favorite russian author.

but remember the trafficing of the dead souls of the serfs essential were for tax write-offs which is something i would expect more from the Moonies than the Mormons.

BTW: never let it be said that our closet freeper posting above misses a chance to attack the commies.

a bit illiterate too it appears.

[AlGore-08.com]

115. Stalin was a seminary student before he was a Communist

and was studying to be a preist in the Russian Orthodox Church. So I'm pretty sure he was baptized at some point...

[bhairava]

108. One of my favorite books

I immediately thought of Gogol too having just re-read it last year. I also thought of that Joy Division song...This action is plainly insensitive if not offensive, and I'm not remotely religious. I am reminded of Mormon and other Christian missionaries who go the islands in the Pacific tropics and encouraged and shamed the people to cover up in "modesty", never mind the heat and humidity! (Not to mention a complete disrespect for their traditions and culture usually.) It is similar to the stealth baptisms and conversions that M. Theresa and Sisters of Charity did to dying Hindus and Muslims.


PS. To Mobuto, what's really interesting is that Wal-Mart and other corporations's insurance policies on their workers (both key man and janitor insurance) and the concomitant tax write-offs for their purchase also reminds one of our intrepid friend Chichikov.

[salin]

6. Here is the blind irony:

The Mormon Church is angry at what it sees as an obstruction to its religious practices.

But they have NO problem interfering, and obstructing, other peoples' religious practices even in death. Their practice of uninvited, consented to "baptisms" that (in their theory) supercedes a persons' religious practices/beliefs, is about as offense as is humanly possible. The dead can not object, can not claim that they believe the Mormon faith to be true, or blasphemous. In a sense this is like an attempt of grave robbing - of the 'soul.' To fulfill their religious practices, it appears that they are stealing the right of the dead to have worshipped and died according to their own spritual/religious beliefs, by (in their ideology) converting in death those who can not object. So if the Mormon's are wrong (that theirs is the only way to heaven), but right (that you can still "convert" after death) - are they casting souls "out of heaven" by their actions (if that is how it is perceived to occur)?

[Muddleoftheroad]

8. Come on

The actions of another do NOT invalidate your own religious choices -- especially in death. It's just their own belief and attempt at doing a good deed.

[MUAD_DIB]

97. When will somebody come along and start

baptising Mormons souls in their own religion?

Will there be a baptismal war in which there is a constant shift between who has baptised the most souls and who is a heretic?

[LifeDuringWartime]

99. that sounds like it could make a good movie or something

LOL

[my cuppa tea]

110. No, not casting out souls....per se

From what I understand, the dead are free to accept or reject the baptism in the afterlife.

Still...

[lazarus]

122. actually

the way it was explained to me, here's what happens:

When you die, your soul goes to a sort of celestial "holding cell". At some point, someone is baptised in your name. Some minor functionary with a clipboard comes by and tells you that so-and-so has been baptised for you, and asks if you accept the Mormon faith. You then have the choice to accept or deny the faith.

They believe that Christ will return when everybody, past and present, has been offered this chance. That's why they're so into genealogy.

So actually, they're not denying anybody their own religious beliefs, simply offering them an alternative, according to their own.

[htuttle]

9. Do Mormons worship the same God as Christians?

:evilgrin:

[ixion]

14. yes, but the interpretation is different...

the Book or Mormon is supposedly a new testament found here in North America... see South Park quote above... dum dum dum dum dum.

[htuttle]

15. Hmm...they incorporated the old books, and added another...

Sounds like Islam.

:evilgrin:


(his point being made, htuttle flees to the safety of his workplace...)

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Muddleoftheroad]

18. Why do you hate Mormons so much?

Other than the fact that they believe in God, I mean?

[R Hickey]

23. Maybe he doesn't hate them, maybe their beliefs just seem funny.

They seem funny to me. So do the beliefs and religious practices of a lot of religions. Some seem sillier than others, and the silliest make me laugh. It doesn't mean I hate them.

[Muddleoftheroad]

35. Deliberately trying to piss folks off because of their religious beliefs

Is offensive. I don't care if you think those beliefs silly, pissing people off to go out of your way and mock them is wrong.

[Walt Starr]

38. I even mock my own religious beliefs

The divine loves mirth!

If we cannot laugh at ourselves and each other, it's a boring world.

[Muddleoftheroad]

40. Mocking yourself is fine

Mocking others is not.

[Walt Starr]

43. It is when they knock on my door

It is a matter of personal honor to mock them as much as possible when they try to sell me their religion.

[Muddleoftheroad]

44. Again, why

They aren't intending to harm you. They are trying to do what they consider to be right in helping you. A simple, "No thanks," is fine.

I'm straight and know people who would get upset if a gay man propositioned them. I don't understand why. It's flattering. I'm not going to convert to something I don't want to do, but I am flattered if they ask. So I give them a polite, "No, thank you."

[Walt Starr]

46. They ARE intending to cause me discomfort in order to sell me their

religion.

I'm only giving them what they are dishing out.

If you can't stand the heat, don't knock on doors to sell your religion.

[Muddleoftheroad]

48. No, you are wrong

They intending to save your soul. By their religion, they are doing something good and by standards of common decency what you are doing is rude and wrong and hurtful.

[Walt Starr]

49. Nope, YOU are wrong

The attempt is to cause intentional emotional durress in order to convert you to their way of thinking.

Proselitizing is harmful to the recipient. If you proselitize to me, you are directly attacking me and my personal beliefs.

I respond to attacks with counterattacks.

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. Not duress

Simply trying to save your soul. If you aren't interested, being polite is a fine response.

How is proslytizing harmful? Are you so weak in your beliefs that you fear the challenge?

[Walt Starr]

51. Proselytizing is an attempt to cause emotional durress

Any claim to the contrary is contradictory of what happens if the attempted attack is successful.

It is an act of verbal assault and, in my opinion, should be illegal.

This is why you will never find me shedding tears for any missionary who is killed by an indigenous population. In my opinion,m they are reaping what they have sewn.

[R Hickey]

52. So do you think telemarketing is good, too?

Trying to force your views on people, importuning them by knocking on their door, is what the "No Soliciting" sign-making industry is all about. Do you want to close down that whole industry?

[Walt Starr]

53. The "no-soliciting" signs don't work with the religion salesmen

I always have one up. The proselytizers don't think it applies to them.

[Muddleoftheroad]

56. You could try

A "No Proslytizing" sign. Instead of abuse that is.

[Walt Starr]

57. Proselityzing IS solicitation

I prefer giving them back some of what they try to dish out.

BTW, I can't find a "No Proselytizing" sign in my local hardware store. They don't make 'em.

[Muddleoftheroad]

59. How tough can it be to make a sign?

You print it out on your computer and laminate it.

Seems a lot better than deliberately trying to make people cry.

[Walt Starr]

61. I'd rather make them cry

They are only getting a small taste of the assaults they are making on people. It'll teach 'em to think twice before engaging in the evil act of proselytizing.

[Muddleoftheroad]

63. Says a lot about you alright

'Nuff said.

[Walt Starr]

65. Yep, I fight back when attacked

and proselytizing, despite trying to paint it as a virtuous activity, is a verbal assault deserving of a counter attack.

BTW, computer printed signs don't look nice. Would never put one up in front of my house.

[Muddleoftheroad]

69. Wrong software

Computer signs look just fine actually.

Have you ever heard of Quark?

Proslytizing is not an evil activity. Deliberately harming others however IS.

[Walt Starr]

72. You decide what you think is an evil act, and I'll decide what I think is

an evil act. To me, proselytizing is evil.

And hopefully, some proselytizers will see this and think twice before they proselytize the next time!

[Muddleoftheroad]

82. I have decided

Deliberately trying to harm people because you don't like their beliefs is evil in my book.

[Walt Starr]

85. Good, then you agree with me proselytizers are evil!

Welcome to the club!

[Muddleoftheroad]

88. No, I have agreed that your actions are evil

And are rude and deliberately mean and hurtful.

[Walt Starr]

89. Which is exactly what proselytizers are doing

I am only reflecting their evil actions which are rude and deliberately hurtful.

When they stop their evil, rude, obnoxious behavior, I'll stop defending myself from it.

[Muddleoftheroad]

90. You seem to have a skewed view of the world

I am done with you.

[Walt Starr]

95. IMO, proselytizers are the ones with a skewed view of the world

To each his own. Those who choose to proselytize to me are in for an earful.

[R Hickey]

96. The proselytizers in my town know my house...

and they don't seem to come around much anymore. I get really rude with them, and they must have spread the word about me amongst themselves.

[Walt Starr]

98. Back when I was a day sleeper

it was a rite of Spring.

First nice day, while I'm sleeping after having worked all night, along come the proselytizers to pound on my door after ignoring the "No Soliciting" and "Day Sleeper" signs.

It seemed like I'd get a new batch every Spring from every chyurch in the town, and it would take at least three visits each before they got the message.

Nobody ever claimed proselytizers were intelligent, though.

[philosophie_en_rose]

117. Why should he have to make a sign?

When someone approaches another person's home, it is their obligation to make sure that they are welcome. The burden is not on him to predict the type of salesmen that intrude upon his time.

Proselytizers know that they are "reaching out" (i.e. annoying) people that do not subscribe to that religion. Their intent is to replace my religious beliefs with their own. I find it repugnant.

I don't care why they do it. If they choose to invade my space, then I am well within my rights to shut my door on them. They can practice their religion however they like, but I'm not about to subscribe to that silliness. And I'm not about to put a tacky sign in my window. Proselytizing is enough of a nuisance without affecting the appearance of my home.

Firm politeness is my usual tactic. It doesn't always work. A closed door does.

[Muddleoftheroad]

124. My point was for someone else who was more strident

You are right. Firm politeness and a closed door.

I agree 100%. If you want to listen, invite them in. Otherwise, "No, thank you." Close.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

120. Try answering the door naked. Poltely invite them to enter

after they remove their clothing.

:evilgrin:

Superstitious people ask for it in a way.

[Walt Starr]

54. And I am on the national "Do Not Call" list.

That hasn't helped with telemarketing assholes either.

[Muddleoftheroad]

55. Telemarketers

Are not hoping to save my soul, they are only trying to make a buck. Sort of a big difference.

[Walt Starr]

58. They aren't trying to "save" any souls

They are trying to get more members for groupthink.

Proselytizing is an evil act and those who engage in it are evil people, IMO.

[Muddleoftheroad]

60. Then again, you are opposed to all religion aren't you?

Isn't that your position?

[Walt Starr]

62. Nope, I'm a religious man

I just despise proselytizers of any stripe or any religion.

[Muddleoftheroad]

64. Yeah sure

Proslytizing is the right of every person. You have the right to ignore them. To try and deliberately abuse people for their beliefs is outright bigotry.

[Walt Starr]

66. Your rights to free speech end at my property line

I jhave a right to my home and my property. You have no right to speak your mind on my property.

[incontrovertible]

119. is that still true?

"I jhave a right to my home and my property. You have no right to speak your mind on my property."

You would be awestruck and horrifed to learn of the stupefying percentage of Americans who believe to the point of dying for it that NO, YOU ABSOULTELY DO NOT and YES, THEY ABSOLUTELY DO.

Putting aside the crackpot "private property does not exist" communist dickheads (a sizable percentage in itself, regrettably - sorry, comrade, I ain't reporting to the dorms), you've got all manner of abortion protestors and religious zealots of all stripes - they've been known to erect prayer circles outside their marks' homes and hurl insults at them, for days, if you offend them enough. You've got the freeper chant brigades outside of the Vice Presidential mansion in 2000. You've got people who'll tear down your political sign or burn a cross on your lawn. You had, until, like, last week, cops in Texas who would incarcerate you for screwing someone in your own bedroom, to say nothing about smoking a damn joint and watching a movie once a year. Pretty soon, within our lifetimes, there'll be tobacco cops who'll arrest you for smoking inside when there's a kid under your roof.

I wish this was still a free country, but the sad fact is that the overwhelming majority, for whatever pet issue they nurse, demands that it NOT be.

[Walt Starr]

67. BTW, what about my freedom of speech

to say the things I want to say. Seems you're being a bigot under your own definitions.

[Muddleoftheroad]

71. Freedom of speech

Yes, you are FREE to say rude, obnoxious and offensive things. Doesn't mean you should.

Try simply saying, "No, thanks." It's a lot classier.

[Walt Starr]

73. And yes, you are free to stand on a street corner and peddle your religion

doesn't mean it's not rude behaviour and you should do it.

Try keeping your religion to yourself, it's a lot classier.

[Occulus]

78. I dealt with these people once

I think it was one of the Witnesses, though, and not a Mormon. Anyway, I told them 'no'... and they walked right in.

People who go door to door in the name of their religion generally aren't the kind of people who take 'no, thanks' for an answer. See, they feel that their message is more important than your desire to not hear it, so they don't stop.

I've had to slam the door in their faces before, after telling them no. So, I know from experience- your suggestion simply isn't effective.

[Walt Starr]

80. The "elders" aren't quite that bad....

...but then again, "elders" in the Mormon church are 18 year olds on their "mission".

[Muddleoftheroad]

83. No, thank you

And close the door. No need to be rude. And trust me, NO ONE just walks in my house.

[Walt Starr]

87. They are drawing first rude

I'm just being rude right back at 'em.

[philosophie_en_rose]

118. ...Have to make a living.

I disagree with your opinion. Telemarketers are employed to earn money to eat. They are just doing their jobs. They are not telling me that I will go to hell for having ATT long distance or not subscribing to National Geographic. They don't condemn my dislike of Pepsi in favor of Coke. They are just doing a job. A job that they need to survive.

Proselytizers are sanctimonious and useless.

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

121. Question: What if ALL religions did it? Every five minutes, some

member of a different religion pounding on your door to save you from your ignorance of their religion?

How tolerant would you be after a couple of weeks of that?

[The Stranger]

113. Actually, you're wrong. And proselytizing is wrong.

They are trying to do what they consider to be right in helping you.

Proselytizing is demeaning, condescending and objectifying. It is someone using you as a means to fulfill their own ends.

[Muddleoftheroad]

125. I don't see it as any of those things

I don't object if someone wants to do something nice for me. If I am not interested, I tell them so. If you don't want this, you still should understand that they ARE trying to help you.

[0007]

102. The mormon are good at doing that, I went to school in Logan Utah..

and know....I find the mormons very offensive and overbearing with their stupid beliefs that are beyond reason.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Walt Starr]

29. When I was a teenager, we had a good Mormon family on one side

and a homosexual couple on the other side.

From where I sit, the homosexual couple were decent wonderful human beings and the Mormon family was a despicable group of arrogant pissants.

[Walt Starr]

28. I use those methods whenever they knock on my door

If you come to MY door trying to sell YOUR religion, you are in for one HUGE smack down session of ridiculing your beliefs.

[Muddleoftheroad]

37. Why?

Why not simply say you are not interested? Or are you intend on being rude to people?

[Walt Starr]

42. Nope, not that easy

I am armed for the Jevos, the Mormons, and any other asshole who wants to knock on MY door to sell me THEIR religious beliefs.

I take it as a matter of personal honor to make some of the idiots cry! If that happens, I've accomplished something! I am very proud that I have actually caused them some level of discomfort. It gives them a little shot of the discomfort they cause each and every person they come into contact with.

There is no more rude behaviour in the world than to bother somebody in their private residence in order to sell them your religion. I find that the vilest and most disgusting behaviour in the world, and take every opportunity to ridicule those rude enough to engage in such vile behaviour.

[Muddleoftheroad]

45. Trying to harm others for their beliefs

Smacks of outright anti-religious bigotry.

[Walt Starr]

47. I'm only giving them back what they are trying to give me

If they can't stand the heat, don't knock on any doors.

[TedinAZ]

104. Man...I can feel the hate...n/t

[Occulus]

79. because, Muddled,

saying no doesn't work on them

[Muddleoftheroad]

84. Yes it does

Say, "No, thank you." Then close the door.

No rudeness. No deliberately making people cry. No confrontation.

[Walt Starr]

86. When they stop being rude by trying to sell me their religion

I'll stop being rude back.

[Walt Starr]

32. BTW, read reasoning on all three methods

1) Many Mormons refer to the BOM this way. Outsiders are not supposed to know this.

2) Mormons claim William Smith had only a third grade education. The inference from my statement is that William Smith wrote the BOM and defers the argument that he only had a third grade education.

3) Mormons refer to their lying and crying sessions as lying and crying sessions. Again, Outsiders aren't supposed to know about this.

[drb]

77. No!

The Mormons believe that there is a separate God for each planet. And if you're good enough on this planet, you can become a god and you will get your own planet to run.

I'm serious. They actually believe this.

Therefore, there are an infinite number of "gods" and an infinite number of planets. Not just one God.

Interestingly, this very statement that you can become a god is found in the Bible, Genesis 3:1 to be exact. Even more interesting is to note who said it. :)

[Turbineguy]

10. Americans should never overlook

a new chance to piss somebody off! Right?

[liberalmuse]

11. They baptize the dead in their temples.

One person will be dunked for 10 to 20 dead people. As long as they don't start voting for the dead, I'm alright with it. However, if the families object, then the Mormons should not be able to baptize them in their temple ceremonies, and they certainly shouldn't be able to take advantage of impoverished persons in order to get names of their relatives. It's truly a stupid ass practice that highlights how insane and far off the path of logic and reason religion and its followers can drift.

On edit: I say the above as someone who was raised Mormon and participated in one of these ceremonies at 14, not that this gives my opinion any more weight. I asked to have my name removed from their roles at 17 and they put me on 'trial', but I never attended. Then I became a fundie...and the Mormon church practices seem perfectly sane after Christian fundamentalism, though the overt racism I was taught as a Mormon was worse. (i.e.; if a dark skinned person becomes Mormon, their skin will start to lighten, or the mark god gave Caine was making him black, or that Native Americans have dark skin because two of their white-skinned Hebrew ancestors were disobedient sons so their skin started to darken, etc.)

[FunBobbyMucha]

12. Shouldn't this be punishable by whatever law governs

Identity Theft? Be it your credit rating or your immortal soul?

[brook]

19. I was offended...

to find that the Mormons had taken the liberty of "saving" the souls of some of my ancestors -many of them had been Unitarians preachers in New England. Though I was angered, I didn't do anything about it.What would you do?

[Muddleoftheroad]

20. Why be offended?

I don't know anyone in my family who is bothered if people in other religions pray for their souls.

[JitterbugPerfume]

22. why be offended??

because it is ghoulish and OFFENSIVE thats why !

and its dum dum dum dum dum

[Muddleoftheroad]

39. So because they can be mocked in South Park

It's OK to mock them?

Nice, open-minded attitude.

[Walt Starr]

70. You anti-free-speecher

Mocking is speech and you are decrying our freedom of speech to mock that which is deserving of mockery!

This is starting to sound like anti-mocking bigotry!

[brook]

25. Because...

it represents my ancestors falsely. It corrupts their true identity. I know they were not Mormons - but anyone else who came across the entries at Genealogy.com would not. It's a sort of identity theft.

[54anickel]

76. Are entries really made in such genealogy databases?

Is it that easy to make an entry to change ones basic beliefs?
I'm not so worried about being labeled a Mormon.
I don't want my future generations somehow mislead to think that I was a Republican!

[brook]

114. I think...

the Mormons own Genealogy.com. But, yes, apparently it is easy...that's where I saw it and it pissed me off. It's dishonest as all heck.

Maybe I oughta sue them for emotional distress, identity theft, desecration of the dead and defamation?

[54anickel]

116. Might be worth a shot. Heck if I can sue McDs for being fat?

Check if they labeled them Repubicans as well. That might be worth double or triple on the emotional distress and defamation of character.

[not systems]

123. No one better...

save my soul after my death.

The thought is rupugnant beyond belief.

This is a disgusting invasion of the rights of the dead.

Pathetic.

Now you know of someone not in your family who cares.

Why do you defend people infringing on others
freedom of religious identity after death?

[Walt Starr]

31. Under Mormon beliefs, there is only one way you don't get into their heave

Mormons believe everybody gets a second shot at redemption after death with one exception, those who have been excommunicated from the Mormon curch.

I've tried to be excommunicated from the Mormon church, but they won't do it because I've never been a member.

[colorado_ufo]

34. Don't waste your time doing anything.

Just because someone believes it, doesn't make it so. Suppose someone in India, this day, did a proxy conversion of you to Hinduism? Would you really be a Hindu? Would you even know about it?

On the assumption that a deceased is already in Heaven - to give us a basis - how could he or she be possibly be "converted" without his or her permission? Would the person who performed the "conversion" then be responsible for the assumption of the converted's sins?

Assuming a belief in God, does the Mind of God change because someone here, on this earth, randomly decides that he or she will presumptiously change something that is non-physical?

Truth is unaffected by what any of us believe. Don't worry about it. However, it does not seem moral for anyone to be profiting by selling names of the deceased for such a purpose.

[moroni]

75. Baptisms for the Dead

I am new to the Church so please, have patience.

Baptisms for the dead are performed in the temples. The name of a person to be baptised is submitted by a family member or relative (sometimes three or four generations removed). {Note: I guess it is possible for a friend to submit your name for a proxy baptism. As a member of the Chruch, I would think that you would really have to be a very good friend for this to occur, not sure though.) No one is baptised randomly although I guess that anyone could subvert the system (where there are humans there can be deception, dishonesty, and unfaithfullness). A lot of people worldwide use the Church's geneology databases to look up family histories, simply because it is a hobbie. Members use the databases to look up and insure family members who were not members of the Church are baptised by proxy so that they will have a chance to either accept or reject the gospel and have a chance to live with their families forever in the kingdom of the living God. {Luke 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.}

Baptism by water and the Spirit is necessary before a person can enter the kingdom of God. We all have read and those of faith know that Jesus the Christ was baptised (by John) to fulfill all righteousness and to show the way for all mankind... Jesus who was perfect.


JOHN 3 3:5
3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

A lot of people like the idea of families being together forever. If your family is all baptised then at least they have a chance to be together in God's kingdom for eternity. A physically deceased member may or may not accept the gospel, that is their choice, their free agency.

Bible Reference KJV: 1 Corinthians 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? Why are they then baptized for the dead?

What are Scriptures?

Words, both written and spoken, by holy men of God when moved upon by the Holy Ghost. Jesus and the writers of the New Testament regarded the books of the Old Testament as scripture (Matt. 22: 29; John 5: 39; 2 Tim. 3: 15; 2 Pet. 1: 20-21). Are there other scriptures? Of course.

Racism is a sin, like many others. Humans are sinful. That is why we have salvation. You will know sin for it is against the laws of God.
Yes, we (humans) legislate morality but that makes little difference to God. He is God. We answer to him for our immorality.

If it's wrong, you KNOW it's wrong.

You can have revelation for yourself but not for me. Ask of God....

James 1 5&6
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.

I know, not well written. Back to lurking and learning.

Blessings to all.

<faithful plug> www.mormon.org

[kaybea]

94. Moroni, thanks for weighing in...

Your perspective as a Mormon is germane. Respectfully, I must let you know that I find the whole concept of proxy baptism offensive, and here's why:

You wrote, " A physically deceased member may or may not accept the gospel, that is their choice, their free agency."

In the Russian case, the deceased were not "members" since they were not Mormons before death. Also, assuming the dead have consciousness and the ability to accept of their own free will, how can they give their consent? Consent implies not only that the wishes are expressed, but are also comprehended by another, the proxy.

Consent is a very important part of my moral universe, and to assume consent without verification takes liberties one has no right to take.

You seem to imply the same yourself when you write, "You can have revelation for yourself but not for me." Which indicates that spiritual matters are inviolately personal.

Let's extend that courtesy to the dead as well.

[0007]

106. Thank you for expressing my feelings

I went to school in Logan Utah and find the mormon very offensive. Especial if your not a mormon and reject their religion.

[dArKeR]

21. Since most Mormons go overseas for 2 years I would expect them to be

the most understanding and empathetic to the world's poor and all of the problems of US Corporations going in and taking over countries. But in fact, from my personal experiences with Mormons, they seem nearly the most racist, prejudice, narrow minded group of people I've ever met. And I'm not bashing. I lived with them as roommates for 2 years so I believe I have a good 'fair and balanced' exposure.

(my point about going overseas: To have their radical thinking that they do even after being exposed to overseas travel, I honestly believe they suffer some MASSIVE type of brain washing either at home or in their temples.

[Jandar]

93. Your's is not an unfair apraisal...

Having spent the bulk of my life in Utah I can only agree with you. I have met a few genuine "Christians" but no more than could be found in any population. As for the notion of brainwashing, all religions do this, but the Mormons do it extremely well. The worst thing about Utahan's though, is that they apply the same unquestioning zeal to Republican politics that they do to religion.

[mainer]

24. they should charge more

[DinahMoeHum]

26. This stuff has been going in Russia for some time. . .

as well as in other Eastern European countries ever since the fall of the Iron Curtain.

And it's not just the Mormons doing this - it's all the "evangelical" branches of the Christian faith - Southern Baptists, Pentacostals, etc. The Falwells, Robertsons, etc.

In response, the governments out there have done some serious cracking-down on these groups.

FYI, the prevalent religion out there is Russian/Eastern Orthodox Christianity. So they are already Christian, just not the fanatical types that have infested their countries since the fall of Communism. They've been around for over 1000 years, they've survived 70-80 years of Communism. The Falwell-Robertson types are nothing but gnats to these people.

For an in depth study, I suggest you do a Google search on the following words: soul+wars+Russia

I think you'll find the results interesting.

:bounce:

[opihimoimoi]

30. This reminds me of those Christian guys on TV who pile thousands of

letters in a heap and hold prayers over them. "Thank you for sending in your letters(and money). We will now pray for yo ass"

Its so sheepesque

[starroute]

33. I fantasize at times about spiritual hostage rescue operations

Get together a few good shamans, sneak into the otherworld, make a raid on the Mormon prisoner-of-consecration camps, and liberate all the unjustly imprisoned souls.

Think it would made a good video game?

[Walt Starr]

36. COFFEE SPEW ALERT!!!!!

Your post needed this, now where did I put that towel?

[Melsky]

41. How to avoid being mormon after death:

Have yourself burried in a huge vat of irish coffee!

[BuelahWitch]

68. They also "baptize" Catholic saints

An acquaintance of mine went to Vatican City to complain about it. I don't know whatever came of it, though.

[drb]

74. Actually, the Mormon practice of baptising dead ancestors started...

...way back when the "church" was overtly racist, and excluded people with any "Negro blood" whatsoever from the "priesthood." You had to research as far back as possible in your ancestry to prove that none of your ancestors were Black.

The exclusion of Black members pretty much ended in the 70's (the 1970's, believe it or not, not the 1870's!). One reason was political pressure from Washington, and the other was Brazil.

Seems that the Mormon "church" in Brazil had put the cash tap on a bunch of converts in Brazil to raise money to build a new temple. Temple was done, and then they realized that a great majority of the people who had put up the cash to build it had some Black ancestry. The "church" was then in the awkward position of telling these folks that they could not go in the temple for which they had paid! Oops!

They've pretty much covered up the real reason they had for baptising dead people, for obvious reasons. The keep it up, probably because it's good for business or something.

[FlaGranny]

81. If the Mormon church wants to

baptise me or my ancestors by proxy, it doesn't bother me a bit. I don't believe in religion at all, and baptising me or my ancestors doesn't hurt us one bit. If it makes the Mormons happy, it is okay with me. If we don't believe in god, we certainly can't believe that this baptising will make us go to heaven even if there is no heaven. If we are religious and believe in baptism, surely we don't believe that what the Mormons are doing will "steal" our souls from God, do we?

No one has taken note of the fact that these records are also kept in their archives so that anyone can research their ancestry, totally free of charge. I've used their on-line (also free) services a few times myself and really appreciate that they are available.

In summary, it doesn't hurt me, it doesn't bother me, and it even provides a service. Live and let live is my motto.

[Rich Hunt]

92. wow!

They must have gotten their inspiration from Gogol!!

[Zhade]

100. As an ex-Mormon...

...please accept my apologies for these nutjobs.

On second thought, a simple apology wouldn't suffice. YEESH!

[MUAD_DIB]

111. Was it hard to leave the M church.

As I understand it the pressure to re-enlist can be brutal.

[peacetalksforall]

101. I resent their baptisms and it is an intuitive resentment

I don't know enough of their true reasons and I can offer no case for my resentment. It is wrong in my book. There is a difference between the living and the dead. To baptize the living without their knowledge is a theft. To baptize the dead is a crock. However, if I find that they are trying to baptize the soul which may or may not be evolving on its own through reincarnated lives on this planet or others is so narrow minded that it astonishes me.

No matter how you cut it - it is arrogant.

Their piousness and fervor and presumption of religious and race superiority is really questionable...and arrogant.

[FlaGranny]

103. Well, you've got to admit that they are much like

many other religions, i.e., piousness, fevor, presumption of religious superiority, and arrogance.

I'm not really bothered by any of them. I ignore them.

[Walt Starr]

105. There are very few religions that do not claim to be the only right answer

You never hear about those that do not because they feel as badly about proselytizing as I do!

[young_at_heart]

109. You can only ignore them to a point

When "their" faith becomes dominant and intrudes upon your beliefs then it's not possible to ignore them.

[0007]

107. Orrin Hatch is a perfect axample of what your talking about..

Read the Constitution of Nevada and how it became a state after it was taken away from Utah by the government in 1856. Previously known as the Utah territory.

This will open anyones eyes about the Mormons and its religion.