U.S. soldier accused of beating Iraqi prisoners says, `It is war'

[Judi Lynn]

U.S. soldier accused of beating Iraqi prisoners says, `It is war'
By David B. Caruso, Associated Press, 11/25/2003 13:26

PHILADELPHIA (AP) One of four American MPs charged with beating prisoners of war at a detention camp in Iraq said Tuesday: ''We were doing our jobs. ... It is war. It is not back home where everybody is safe.''

Shawna Edmondson, a 24-year-old Army reservist, accepted a demotion and a discharge rather than face a court martial, and returned to her hometown in northeastern Pennsylvania last week.

Three other members of Edmondson's Military Police unit refused to accept a plea bargain and are on restricted duty in Kuwait. They could go to jail if convicted of abuse and misconduct.

Fellow soldiers testified that the four Pennsylvania reservists punched and kicked prisoners who were being brought to an American camp in southern Iraq on May 12. One prisoner suffered a broken nose.

One soldier said that during the attack, a beaten prisoner was ''screaming for his life.'' Another testified that Edmondson told her that the attack was to ''teach the prisoner a lesson on how to treat women.''

The reservists have said they were acting in self-defense. (snip/...)


http://www.boston.com/dailynews/329/nation/U_S_soldier_accused_of_beating:.shtml

[wtmusic]

1. Pigs

It is war, yes. And mistreatment of prisoners is a war crime.

[demsrule4life]

2. And when American prisoners get shot in the head?

any complaints about that?

[PVnRT]

5. Nice deflection there

How many American POW's have been shot in the head in this invasion? Hmmmmmmm?

And yes, that is a war crime too. Quit excusing the other by creating strawman arguments.

[demsrule4life]

6. As a career military man I am not

condoning the physical abuse of POW's, but we surely do have a better record of treating POW's then our enemies have of treating ours.

[leftchick]

8. how about the "detainees" at GITMO?

I suppose their detention and treatment is A-Okay with you too?

[demsrule4life]

11. If they are bonafide POW's

I see no problem, is there are people there that were not caught on the field of battle then they should not be there.

[Skittles]

12. they are NOT "bonafide" ANYTHING

WE DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO THE HELL THEY ARE

[demsrule4life]

14. And you know this how?

[leftchick]

17. Pretty much everyone knows or should.....

The detainees have no counsel, no charges against them, are not identified and are tortured for information. They are "suspected" of being "terrorists" or associated with the "terrorists" (Broadly defined by the US Justice Dept.). The detainees inculed children under the age of 16 years. Now why don't you know this and what International laws do you think the US is breaking by these horrendous actions?

[demsrule4life]

22. And my question still stands

If you have not been there yourself to see what the conditions are, you don't know. We let them practice their religion, we make sure the foods we serve them meet their religion beliefs, what we don't do is shoot them in the head as most of our pow's have been. And I will say again if anybody at gitmo was not captured on the field of battle, then they have no business being there.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

42. Have you personally been to Gitmo?...

I'm curious to read what you have to say.

And on what are you basing your comment "what we don't do is shoot them in the head as most of our pow's have been"? Which of our POWs have been shot in the head? Were any POWs shot in the head at all?

And for being a career military man I'm surprised that you seem to know very little about the way we've treated POWs since WWII.

During the Battle of the Bulge, German POWs were shot and killed in retaliation for the American POWs shot and killed at Malmedy.

Korea also demonstrated a general brutality toward POWs on both sides.

I'm surprised that you hadn't heard about the helicopter rides in Vietnam...take four POWs up and start tossing them out until one gave you the information you were looking for. The Argentinians copied that little trick from us.

My brother-in-law was in Desert Storm...they didn't stop to take prisoners and shot anyone that tried to surrender. He tries not to think about that these days.

And based on what happened to Soviet and Afghan POWs during the Afghan-Soviet War, what do you suppose is happening there right now?

Quite a few of us have been in the military or are currently serving. How about we skip the official blather and go right for the truth?

[demsrule4life]

44. Noticed that Jessica's name has been mentioned in this thread

what happened to several of the male prisoners that was captured with her? Oh they were buried outside that hosptial.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

52. Yes, the troops that died from their wounds after being...

...brought to the hospital "were buried outside that hospital". What should the Iraqi medical staff have done with the bodies? Additionally, it is the Muslim custom that the dead be buried as quickly as possible...even the dead of those that are not Muslim.

And yes, most of the fatal wounds among those that died were head wounds, usually in the area of the face, because of the body armor and helmets that our troops wear. Additionally, I remember very clearly that the Army released a statement indicating that NONE of the troops in that unit were executed after being taken prisoner.

I noted with interest that you didn't answer my question about whether or not you had been to Gitmo. Your non-answer is duly noted.

I also note that you had no comment in response to my examples of the treatment of POWs by American troops since WWII. That is also duly noted.

[Skittles]

55. THEY HAVE NO BUSINESS??

oh and WE DO ?????

[BlackFrancis]

10. I would have agreed up until the last few years

I can't think of anything ever done to us on the scale of the mass container murders in Afghanistan and who really knows what's going on in Iraq? If prisoners are being held in locations that look anything like our field hospitals for our own troops stateside I'd say they were being abused.

[chelaque liberal]

89. I was hoping someone would mention that

Has anyone seen the documentary film, Massacre in Mazar, by Irish director Jamie Doran, or read accounts of what was going on when John Walker Lindl was captured (outside of Ashcroft's version)? I think of these things every time I see a "Proud to be an American" bumpersticker.

[DulceDecorum]

13. So have the Iraqis been taking photos

of American GIs all tied up and hooded and participating most unwillingly in some S&M games?

Who has EVER done that with Americans?
Or anyone else for that matter?

(We can produce a VERY LONG LIST of who the Americans have done this to.)

[demsrule4life]

26. Wasent that the Brits?

[lumpy]

16. So that makes it right?

Beating a prisoner is a cowardly act.

[Scott Lee]

21. If anyone had invaded my country, I'd not think twice about capping them

would you?

[KansDem]

23. I would, except...

... they would have to illegally invade my country against the wishes of the world community with the expressed purpose of overthrowing my government because I supposedly had "weapons of mass destruction," a charge which was based on lies, deceit, and....

Hey, what am I saying????

[0007]

36. By who's standards?

[saigon68]

40. I don't know what military you are IN???

Sir, the one I was in, for 8 1/2 years, required its NCOs and Officers to report War Crimes.

Apparently now according to you, there is a move to excuse this criminal behavior, for the reason--- (your Quote) " we surely do have a better record of treating POW's then our enemies have of treating ours."

That Sir, is a Lame-Assed excuse.

And further Sir, will get you no sympathy or relief at the Hague or in any well constituted General Court Martial.

[demsrule4life]

47. And if you would have read my reply you would have

noticed that I said I do not condone any miss treatment of POW's. What really baffles me is the lack of any outrage of the treatment of our sons and daughters in POW status.

[Classical_Liberal]

66. I am outraged at their abuse

so what's your point. This article was on our treatement of pows. It is lame to assume that because we are offended at abuse of Iraqi pows we condone abuse of American pows.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

69. Which American POWs have been abused during this conflict?...

...Please be specific.

[saigon68]

75. THANK YOU FOR SERVICE TO OUR COUNTRY

I simply cannot fathom why this Senior NCO, an E-8 MSGT would accept some type of Article 15, a reduction in grade and a discharge, in lieu of a General Court Martial.
I guess she went over the top. Too bad, but if thats the way E-8s in the modern Army act, there is no hope for anyone.

My 2 cents

[9215]

79. Alot of the problem with feeling

sympathetic to what happens to US soldiers in Iraq is that we should not be there in the first place. We started the goddamn war to rob that country, we have killed tens of thousands of people, left the country in a mess and continue to shoot away at anything that moves.

It is a question of who has the moral authority in this "war" (not a declared one). I, and alot of other people in the US think we do not have moral authority on this one.

It is ludicrous for the robber, murderer, etc. to complain about how those he robs treat him after the fact.

[chelaque liberal]

90. I agree

We went there and killed their children, for God's sake. It's a war because we said It's a war?

[NickB79]

18. Didn't your mom ever teach you

Two wrongs don't make a right? Of course people are outraged when US POW's are mistreated, but how does that give us the right to then act the same way towards Iraqi POW's? Sorta kicks the idea of the US's "moral superiority" right out the window.

[demsrule4life]

24. I did state

that I don't condone the mistreatment of POW's. Where is the outrage with our soldiers being shot in the head when captured? Sorry I can't stand with with several of the people here, we have been attacked several times the past 10 years, sorry folks the attacks won't stop no matter who is in office.

[DrWeird]

27. Are you still repeating Fox News propaganda?

The soldier with the bullet in his head on the Al jazeera video was killed in combat, not taken prisoner. Not that it matters, since we violate international law regarding treatment of POWs I don't see any reason why the Iraqis should.

[demsrule4life]

30. No I'am not repeating Faux news propaganda

I'am repeating facts of things that have happened, and things that I have witnessed.

[DrWeird]

32. Yeah, they are pretty sneaky bastards.

My brother's friend's roomate saw them taking kuwaiti babies out of incubators and eating a big plate of california cheeseburgers.

[demsrule4life]

34. Must be real tough

living life with your head stuck in the sand.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

43. Tell us what it's like when you pull your head up for a breather.

[Skittles]

57. severe brainwashing

very sad

[NNN0LHI]

60. Some brains require very little washing n/t

[Superfly]

35. Or what happened 2 days ago?

2 GIs were wounded, dragged out of their Hummer, and then had their heads bashed in with rocks?

Oh, yeah...it's ok for them to treat our soldiers like this....

[DrWeird]

37. Dish it out but can't take it, eh?

nt

[demsrule4life]

39. You best wake up

because there are people out there that want to see you dead simply because you don't practice religion the same way they do. And if you don't believe in a god, they want to see you dead twice over.

[DrWeird]

41. You mean like americans?

The only country I can think of that recently invaded an entire country based only on the predominate religion.

[demsrule4life]

45. the same way we were attacked first because of our religion?

[DrWeird]

46. Here's a clue: Iraq never attacked us.

Can you hear through all that sand?

[demsrule4life]

48. I thought we attacked Iraq for

their oil.

[DrWeird]

50. Well at least you admit it wasn't about protecting america.

That's a start.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

59. Who exactly was responsible for the attacks of September 11, 2001?....

Didn't you think it was more than a little strange that the names of ALL of the alleged hijackers were blasted out to the world in an amazingly short time? What's more amazing is the following:

FBI Admits: No Evidence Links 'Hijackers' to 9-11
May 13, 2002
<http://www.americanfreepress.net/051302/FBI_Admits__No_Evidence_/fbi_admits__no_evidence_.html>

First, we were told that the hijackers were Al Qaeda, and that they were living in Afghanistan. That has evolved to the explanation that most of the plotters were from Saudi Arabia. When that information came out, the Bushies were trying to get Saudi Arabia to be more cooperative in the use of bases for the attack on Iraq. Curious timing, wouldn't you say?

And why do you suppose the mainstream media refuses to provide coverage for the following article?:

Pentagon Lied: Terrorists Trained at U.S. Bases
<http://www.madcowprod.com/index6.html>

"EXCLUSIVE— Despite earlier denials, terrorists in the Sept. 11 attacks received training at secure U.S. military bases, a Defense Department spokesman admitted in an interview Friday.

Three days after the WTC disaster, Newsweek, the Washington Post and the Knight Ridder newspapers reported claims that five of the terrorist hijackers in the Sept 11 attacks received training at secure U.S. military installations during the 1990s. The reports also claimed three of the terrorists had listed their address as the Naval Air Station in Pensacola, Fla., and had participated in military exchange programs for foreign officers at the Pensacola Naval Air Station in Florida."

Did Terrorist Pilots Train at U.S. Military Schools?
<http://www.madcowprod.com/index5.html>

"In addition to having been inducted into the U.S. flight training program by two Dutch-owned flight schools in Venice, Florida, as many as six of the terrorists, including ringleader Mohammed Atta, also received training at U.S. military facilities, according to a flurry of stories between Sept 15 and 17 in the Washington Post, Newsweek, and Knight Ridder newspapers.

The story had an extremely short life.

Newsweek reported that "U.S. military sources have given the FBI information that suggests five of the alleged hijackers of the planes used in Tuesday's terror attacks received training at secure U.S. military installations in the 1990s."

Knight Ridder’s news account was more specific. It said Mohamed Atta had attended International Officers School at Maxwell Air Force Base in Montgomery, Ala. In addition, Abdulaziz Alomari had attended Aerospace Medical School at Brooks Air Force base in Texas, they reported, and Saeed Alghamdi had been to the Defense Language Institute in Monterrey, California."

Now, who attacked us on September 11, 2001, and what were their reasons?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

49. We should know about how to treat people that practice their religion...

...differently, shouldn't we? Did you know that we treated Native Americans as if they were nothing more than animals because of the way they practiced their religion? We thought nothing of killing them outright, or forcing them to leave their ancestral homes and marching them out west to some blazing patch of worthless desert.

And do you think the high level of animosity between Japanese and American troops in the Pacific Theater of WWII was entirely based on the war alone? According to our propaganda, they were Godless heathens that had to be eradicated from the Pacific islands. Prisoners were rarely taken on either side. Korea and Vietnam were no different in terms of the way the troops were encouraged to basically learn how to hate the enemy.

And what about the rising media campaign against the Middle East that started with the first so-called "oil shortage" in the 1970s? I was in the military from 1976 to 1981, and I know all too well what was being said about Arabs and the Islamic religion during that time. I was on the USMC staff as the ranking Naval Gunfire Liaison Officer in 1980 when we almost went to war against Iran following the failed hostage rescue attempt. Desert Storm was our first invasion of Iraq, and now we're at them again. We have been indoctrinated to hate anyone that practices the Islamic religion. Even some of the churches in the so-called Bible Belt are openly preaching hatred of Muslims.

[Tinoire]

77. There are?

What people would these be? Surely you're not confusing them with the people who are angry at having been invaded and having their country's riches be plundered by that eternal Anglo-Saxon triumvirate that's been so out to subjugate the entire world? Not the ones who are watching their daughters get man-handled by grubbhy, groping infidel fingers? Not the ones who haven't had electricity or schools for the last few months and who can't get petrol to earn a livelyhood?

Which ones are you talking about? The ones whose babies were thrown out from incubators and were waiting for us with open arms? Gosh I hope not because we all know those guys don't exist.

Nobody hates Christians and Jews because we don't practice the way they do! They hate us because... uh... they hate our freedoms.

[0007]

38. Still doesn't make it right, does it?

[NickB79]

84. Again, that doesn't justify us beating POW's

Just because they violated international law doesn't give us the right to do the same.

Also, the military press release now says the soldiers were killed by the gunshot wounds, and only beaten after they were dead. Not that I really believe the military release over the word of the Iraqi witnesses, but if true would be guite different than torturing Iraqi POW's.

[Andyjunction]

63. but...

I think it's sickening that our soldiers would ever be mistreated as prisoners of war. It's despicable. But, it bothers me even more when we do the same thing to our prisoners. We're supposed to be the good guys. If we act in the same way they do, then what seperates us?

[DulceDecorum]

19. You mean like how Jessica Lynch

got shot, slapped and raped?
By Hill and Knowlton?

The Iraqi people had NOTHING whatesoever to do with September 11 and even the neo-cons admit the neocon of the American people.
So why are the American GIs over there shocking and aweing the heck out of Iraq?

The US soldiers KNOW full well that they are in the wrong - THAT is why morale is at an all-time low and
many of them are committing suicide
because they consider it more honorable to die
than to murder INNOCENT people in their houses
in the name of "freedom" and "Homeland Security."

The ONLY way one can possibly
support the troops
is by extricating them from this mess and
BRINGING THEM HOME IMMEDIATELY.

[Scott Lee]

20. They should have showered their occupiers with flowers?

Is that what you suggest?

[Tinoire]

78. Yes!

I mean I think so :shrug:

Compassionate Conservatives right :shrug:

So sad... so misunderstood by these people who hate us for our... freedoms.

It has nothing to do with stealing their oil or destroying their culture. They just hate us because they are... so unreasonable.


Beulah, peel me a grape

Scott Lee, where's my mint julep?!

and you, little Black cherubs happily swinging near the ceiling, wave them fans faster! People are beginning to thing you're just not happy on this plantation!

Wreaths, wreaths... weave make more wreaths... Show us how thrilled you are to be subjugated!
----------

I think that's what he suggested :shrug:

[Turley]

28. Quick to condemn, aren't you?

It looks like a lot of people here are just as quick. Guilty till proved otherwise I guess.

Here's what a quick Google turned up (for anyone who want's to do more than skim the surface). Four GI's are charged, a female E-8, male E-7, Edmonson (an E-5) and another male E-4. The female E-8 is a 14 year veteran of the PA State Troopers and a veteran of GW1 POW camps where she was stabbed by a prisoner.

The E-8 apparently accused her superiors of mismanagement of the camp. Among other things she says 1)the Commander cut and ran during a riot and left his troopies to fend for themselves. 2) A Full-Bird lost his weapon in the camp (note to non-military people: this is a big no-no). 3)A Major was inebriated (alcohol is illegal in tactical situations; another big no-no). 4)The officers apparently had a pet prisoner who pretty much had the run of the camp (not particularly smart).

At some point the E-8 went outside her chain of command to complain about the situation. I am not usually particularly sympathetic to people who go outside their chain of command but, in this case it sounds like it was warranted. It looks to me like they decided to spike her.

I am perfectly willing to admit I haven't heard all sides in this case and quite possibly the officers have a dramatically different version of events. But one thing stands out in my mind: the other three all had the opportunity to take a discharge and go home like Edmonson. Each one of them knows they could be facing hard time in Leavenworth where life is kind of nightmarish for former MP's or cops.

And yet all three of these soldiers is willing to risk 20 years at hard labor because they feel they did the right thing. That's a very strong statement in my book. I don't know too many people who would chance 20 years in Ft. L.

[FredScuttle]

82. "I don't know too many people who would chance 20 years in [Leavenworth]"

How about insane ones? You know, the type with the inhumanity to beat a defenseless prisoner?

Hey, after all, Lt. Calley got off, right? Worth a shot for these boys.

[kayell]

3. "Her discharge ... will probably bar her from pursuing her plan to

become a police officer."

Well thank goodness for that!

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

31. Just reading her comments made my skin crawl.

What sort of people are we creating as a nation today?

[Beaker]

4. Demotion and a Discharge?

Where do I sign up?

If the army continues it's Prussian-like policy of "stop loss", I can see more than a couple servicepeople looking for alternate ways out.

[NNN0LHI]

7. Support the troops? Sorry. I can't support this kind of shit. Never n/t

[saigon68]

33. GESTAPO AND SS STORMTROOPERS

The NCO's and Officers are at fault. These people are War Criminals.

No good Officer would ever condone this shit. She should go to Leavenworth PERIOD

[Turley]

51. You might want to try

ascertaining a few facts before you go condemning people.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

70. Interesting response. Do you have anything specific you want to...

...discuss, or are you just lashing out?

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DrWeird]

56. Well if it steps like a goose...

we're talking about people who beat POW's. Spending time at Leavenworth is the least of what they have coming.

[Turley]

58. Read post 28

Or google yourself a little more information on the case.

Don't be so quick to condemn when you don't know the whole story

[Media_Lies_Daily]

61. Okay, I read it. Sounds like someone willing to say just about anything..

...at this point.

Newsflash: The courts-martial will be about HER actions, not the actions of anyone else.

[Turley]

64. Newsflash for you

the Courts Martial will be about the actions of the three accused as well as Edmonson's actions (as a subordinate of the E-8 and the E-7).

Edmonson is not facing Courts Martial herself.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

68. You're going to have to help me with your post...

...in the first sentence you state that:

"the Courts Martial will be about the actions of the three accused as well as Edmonson's actions"

....and in the second sentence you state:

"Edmonson is not facing Courts Martial herself"

How can the ACTIONS of an individual be tried at courts-martial, but the INDIVIDUAL responsible for those actions not face courts-martial herself?

Please explain.

[Turley]

81. Well that's an easy one

In the military, Superiors are accountable for the actions of their subordinates. The E-8 and the E-7 can be punished for the E-5's actions even if the E-5 herself has already been discharged from the military.

The article states clearly that Edmondson took a less than honerable discharge to avoid a courts martial. That's my whole point. The other three could have taken a discharge too and got a free ticket out of Iraq. They chose to take the chance of getting 20 years in Leavenworth. That is conviction.

[DrWeird]

54. Agreed, to bad she got away with it.

A demotion and discharge is a slap on the wrist. The people who let her off easy should be sent up the river.

[J B]

9. This use of "self-defense" is no worse than Bush's.

But peons aren't supposed to benefit from this stuff.

[PaDUer]

15. She was on the local news last nite..

she said she's been told she can't discuss ANY of this with anyone!
-edit
there's another link on the Gen Disc site regarding this story from the local news in Scranton, PA.

[bobbieinok]

25. I'm surprised I haven't read here my reaction.......

A WOMAN soldier is beating POWS??????

No, I don't think women are morally superior to men.

Yes, I have some problems with women in direct combat roles.

But good grief, where else, when else have we seen women doing this as a matter of course?????? gangs???? prisons????? where????


We are truly in a new and bizarre universe.

[Turley]

29. Well I'm not a woman

but my best guess is that if some reactionary, fundamentalist butt-hole tried some of his misogynist, "treat a woman like a dog" routine on me I'd probably kick his teeth in. But I'm not a woman so what do I know.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

62. Are you talking about her commanders?

[Turley]

65. No

[Media_Lies_Daily]

71. And we have the word of a soldier who is being discharged under duress...

...that this event actually took place?

True or not, she lost self-control, and people in those positions cannot, under any conditions, lose control.

[demsrule4life]

73. Problem is the military

puts people in those positions weather or not they want to be in that position.

[Polemonium]

67. This kind of thing has been fairly common in Iraq

It is encouraging to see some disciplinary action taken, but this is just the tip of the iceberg. I watched a documentary on the three to five months after the "end" of the war in Iraq. It showed an enormous disconnection between the boys on the ground and the folks in charge of rebuilding Iraq. I don't blame the boys on the ground, they are not trained to be police, or to be community builders etc., but the documentary made it clear that they have to come home soon or the Iraqi people are going to revolt in much greater numbers.

The documentary showed troops man handling and swearing at civilians. It showed one alleged pickpocket being gang tackled with at least one of the guys on top of him punching him while on the ground. It interviewed an officer who witnessed the killing of two protesters when someone shot into the crowd. The officer did not see a threat from the crowd. It showed civilians killed while caught in the cross fire, and it interviewed Iraqis getting more and more angry about the American occupation.

To many guns, in a tense situation with people from both sides dying everyday. The kids we have on the ground are not trained to handle this situation. I suppose most of us knew all of this already, but the documentary really brought it home.


THE CUTTING EDGE - THE PRICE OF VICTORY This program follows a battalion of American troops in one of Baghdad’s most dangerous areas. As soldiers come under fire from snipers and see their humvees destroyed in bomb attacks, Panorama’s Andy Davis and his crew were on the ground alongside them, recording the firefights. This is a story of American soldiers who came to rebuild a country but found themselves fighting a guerrilla war instead. (From the UK, in English and Arabic, English subtitles) WS

[Media_Lies_Daily]

72. Excellent post. I really worry about what may happen when the...

...additional National Guard units arrive to replace frontline troops. I wager a guess that the situation will never be any better than it is right now.

[saigon68]

74. IT WILL BE WORSE THAN IT IS NOW

These "week-end warriors" are not RA. They are older-- but less gung ho, there will be a lot of them shot down like dogs.

They have families and think about their kids -- the 18 year old RAs think they are invincible.

The CHIMPANZEE'S mistake is that he has to send adults who aren't going to scrape, bow and kiss his ASS.

This whole deal will end in a violent Civil War in 2 or 3 years.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

76. You're correct on all counts...civil war might...

...come sooner rather than later.

This is getting pretty ugly, isn't it?

[saigon68]

85. The next 6 months will tell a lot

Stay tuned

[9215]

80. The Milgram prison studies come to mind

These studies of prison guards showed that the environment of the prison allows and sometimes condones such abusive behavior, especially if it is sanctioned from above.

It might be worth a google for those interested.

[Judi Lynn]

83. Oh, yeah! Thanks for reminding us.

Just a quick look at this link will refresh the memory of people who've already heard about it years ago.

Very, very interesting:

(snip) To Become A Torturer

Obedience to authority is considered to be a virtue for the most part in our country. Few people think twice about the subject, and even fewer consider that such authority could be dangerous. Authority figures often have a great deal of power due to people's obedience, and if that authority is malevolent, considerable harm can and has been done. Studies done predominantly by Stanley Milgram and also by others have shown shown that ordinary people can be taught to become torturers and do the "unthinkable."


In order to see how ordinary people can obey authority to the extent of torture and cruelty, we need to understand why people are so obedient. In "The Education of a Torturer," Janice Gibson and Mika Haritos-Fatouros explain that Stanley Milgram came up with three factors that cause a person to decide to obey or disobey. The first factor is a person's family or school background. If a person has been strongly encouraged his or her family and school background to obey, he or she will be more obedient to authority. If, however, the opposite is true, he or she will be more likely to disobey. The second factor is called binding. The binding process is a series of experiences that "makes people feel comfortable when they obey" (355). Such factors can include rewards and punishment for obedience or disobedience. A third factor is strain. Strain is the appearance of bad feelings that come up when a person disobeys.


The last two factors, binding and strain, contribute quite a bit to the decision to obey or disobey. In combination with each other, if binding is greater than the strain of obedience, people will be very likely to obey. However, if strain is greater than the binding forces, people will most likely disobey. Obviously, if authority offers enough to bind the person in spite of the strain, that authority figure will be able to accomplish nearly anything he or she wants through those that obey him or her.


Gibson and Haritos-Fatouros sum up this idea by saying, "Training that increases binding and reduces strain can cause decent people to commit acts, often over long periods of time that otherwise would be unthinkable" (357). This statement is backed up by a study done by Molly Harrower, a University of Florida psychologist. She asked 15 Rorschach experts to examine inkblot tests from Adolf Eichman, Rudolf Hess, Hermann Goering and five other Nazi war criminals along with tests from eight Americans (Some of the Americans were considered psychologically normal, and others were not). These experts were unable to distinguish the Nazis' tests from the Americans' tests. This study shows that the Nazis weren't psychologically different from the average American. (snip/...)

http://thunder.prohosting.com/~tlennon/obedience.html

[9215]

88. Learning about Milgram in college really opened my eyes

These experts were unable to distinguish the Nazis' tests from the Americans' tests. This study shows that the Nazis weren't psychologically different from the average American. (snip/...)


Damned interesting.

[Mari333]

86. My stepson, who is going to Iraq in January

told me that when his reserve unit found out, they started yelling Hoooahh we get to kill people..this is the mentality of "teenagers with guns" that are being sent over there in many cases.

[PaDUer]

87. I thought you took

care of that and that he wasn't going??