Clark: Dinner Not Enough

[robbedvoter]

Clark: Dinner Not Enough
http://www.clark04.com/story/32/
General Wesley Clark said President Bush's secret trip to Iraq on Thanksgiving was not enough from a Commander-in-Chief who has done too little for our soldiers and veterans.

Clark said the Commander-in-Chief should spend time with the troops in the field when they are in harm's way to thank them for their commitment and service to our country.

However, Clark criticized Bush's continued failure to be a real leader to those troops by not providing a success strategy in Iraq.

The extensive security precautions taken for the trip serve as a reminder just how dangerous it is in Iraq for soldiers on the ground, and reinforces the fact that Bush still has no plan to get us out of the mess in Iraq so that the troops are not spending future Thanksgivings there.

Clark said the president should also honor our fallen warriors and injured heroes by allowing for public recognition when they return to the states so they and their families can be honored by the whole nation.

Clark outlined his success strategy in Iraq earlier this month. He called for using our troops more efficiently and effectively by allowing more international troops to participate in Iraq. He also proposed rebuilding relationships with our allies around the world. He said that the Iraqis need to have a rising stake in our success in that country.

[xray s]

1. Good comments by Clark

I wish Bush had spent the past six weeks making plans to get our troops out of Iraq by next Thanksgiving instead of making plans for his photo-op this Thanksgiving.

[neuvocat]

2. Thank you Wesley Clark.

And thanks to anyone else who calls Bush on this little stunt.

[Malva Zebrina]

3. smart

and right on, right away and that is important. He is correct in every proposition. Clark is right there on the ball.

[IndianaGreen]

4. Kudos to Clark for sticking it to that fraud in the WH

The extensive security precautions taken for the trip serve as a reminder just how dangerous it is in Iraq for soldiers on the ground... the president should also honor our fallen warriors and injured heroes by allowing for public recognition when they return to the states so they and their families can be honored by the whole nation.

Ouch, Ouch, ouch!

[Nlighten1]

5. Will they plaster this all over the news?

The media has been whoring this "visit" since the day it happened.

[Mz Pip]

6. Last night

on CNN they just used the first part of this quote, "The CIC should be spending time with the troops.." and the way they did it made it seem like Clark was praising Bush.

Once again Clark is being taken out of context to make it appear he's saying something that he's not.

MzPip
:dem:

[MIMStigator]

7. Beautiful. n/t

n/t

[joanski01]

8. General Clark will be on

Wolf Blitzer's show tomorrow, Sunday. I can't wait for Wolfie to try and put words in Clark's mouth. I want to see Wolf pee his pants on live TV.

[dbt]

9. The sorry little bastard (bu$h)

Wouldn't even sit down to break bread with the men and women who are in Iraq to fight and maybe die for his fucking oil! What a slap in the face of everyone who volunteered to serve this country.

Meanwhile, BRAVO to Wesley Clark, who knows a thing or two about how your treat your fighting personnel. I especially like this part:

"Clark said the Commander-in-Chief should spend time with the troops in the field when they are in harm's way to thank them for their commitment and service to our country." (Emphasis mine.)

'Course that's only a pipe dream. bu$h knows nothing of commitment and service--and ain't likely to learn!

:grr:
dbt

[freethought23]

10. Clark's 'internationalization' strategy won't work

(1) Almost no one else wants to help

(2) Those that are helping--e.g., the Italians and the Spaniards--are getting mauled.

By bombing the UN headquarters twice, and by attacking the forces of US allies, the Iraqi insurgents have served clear notice that they want all foreigners out of Iraq.

We can leave now, or later, when the cost is much higher. Just like Vietnam. Let's do it now. Let's turn the government over to Chalabi and his pals, and leave.

[KittyWampus]

11. "They Won't Help" Only Because Chimp Won't Give Up Authority

It is a lie that they won't help... it's just that Junior said "do it my way" and wouldn't allow other countries any measure of authority.

Saying "they won't help" is just buying into Junior's LIE.

[freethought23]

12. How do you know this? You don't.

Name one country in the world that would "help" if given "a measure of authority," and justify your answer.

[FrenchieCat]

13. Duh....

World leaders don't want to see Bush re-elected. They ain't doing Sh*t till his out of office. If you give them a seat a the table and offer up some of Halliburton's Billion dollar deals, they will help alright.....mark those words!

[freethought23]

16. Do you say "Duh" a lot? I think you must.

Suppose you are right, which I do not concede. Would you really like to offer "Halliburton billion dollar deals" to other countries to cut up the loot of Iraq? That would just collectivize the pillage. We have no right to be there. Bribing other countries to help us do what we have no right to do does not improve the moral situation. In fact, it makes it worse.

[FrenchieCat]

17. I like Duh...almost as much as

Hel-lo????.....which I reserve for special occasions.

Clark's plan is to have a Multi-international organization that would include Arab countries who would deal with the reconstruction of Iraq...a non American would administer it. The Iraqi Democratic govt (the local governments would hold elections and send 2 representatives to a central government. That central Government would have the power to dispense of the funds to the various bidders themselves.

It's not simple.....because it can't be.

[freethought23]

18. Clark's plan, as outlined by you, won't work

(1) What Arab or Moslem country will join the "multi-international" force to occupy Iraq if the US is part of it? Even our pals the Turks have refused, at the behest of our puppet Iraqi government.

(2) The Iraqi insurgents will not tolerate any force--Arab or otherwise--working hand in hand with the US.

Clark has also said that we need to improve the anti-guerilla warfare training of our troops. This implies that he wants to keep them there in a combat role.

Clark is a big disappointment to me. In the beginning he sounded like a clear alternative to Bush. He has lost that clarity.

[KittyWampus]

19. Since Clark Has Experience Forging Multilateral Ties

And knows Blair & Chirac... I'll take his accessment over yours anyday.

Why don't YOU prove that Clark's plan won't work.

All that you've done is make assertions based on your own personal opinion.

By the way, Chalabi has no base of support in Iraq and won't be able to manufacture one.

[freethought23]

20. This is basically an expression of faith in Wesley Clark

I have given reasons why I think Clark's plan won't work. Please tell me what's wrong with my reasons. And BTW, the other leaders of NATO were not very impressed with Clark's ability to forge multilateral ties. The Brits called him "the supreme being" behind his back, and British General Michael Jackson refused Clark's irrational order to attack the Russians at Pristina in Kosovo on the grounds that it might start WW III. Here's a link:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/Kosovo/Story/0,2763,208123,00.html

As far as Chalabi's government is concerned, I doubt that it will last a week without US support. I still think we should turn control of the country over to them, and then let the Iraqis decide their own fate.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[freethought23]

22. No, you don't HAVE to say things like that.

These personal and scatalogical attacks are unresponsive to the arguments I gave.

There is nothing "right-wing" about wanting to get out of Iraq, or to stop attacking its people, to save lives of our GI's, to allow the people of Iraq to determine their own future, and to preclude US oil companies from sucking Iraq's energy resources dry.

When I first heard about Clark's candidacy, I was excited and supportive. Here at last, I thought is someone who can get elected and will get us out of Iraq. But his public comments over time have steadily watered down his position to the point where I no longer have any confidence in him.

Now you can insult me all you want for this view, but insults are no substitute for an argument. Nor are medals.

[Voltaire99]

26. "Wesley Clark's True Colors"

You are correct about Clark's pointless appeal to internationalism. It's merely the best he's been able to cobble together post-invasion in order to obscure his enthusiasm and cheerleading for the war. It's no exit strategy; it's a fig leaf.

As the latest of the warrior liberals who want to outflank the GOP on defense, Clark is aggressively pro-empire, and word is now getting out widely to progressives - and Michael Moore's flirtation notwithstanding, there will be little or no progressive support for this man in 2004.

See "Wesley Clark's True Colors" from the current issue of the Nation:

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1128-05.htm

[freethought23]

27. Thanks for the link to the Common Dreams article on Clark

This passage stood out in my mind: "Between all the anti-Bush bluster, and the talk of the Iraq war being a 'national tragedy,' the position of the antiwar candidate really boils down to that: Let's finish the job like we didn't (in Vietnam). Underneath it all, he seems to be a man yearning to scratch a very old itch."

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/1128-05.htm

[Turkw]

45. Matt Taibbi's True Colors

I was very disappointed The Nation ran this smear article by Matt Taibbi, so I did a little research on Tabbit. He is pro-serbian and ant-NATO, wrote against the Kossovo war, apparently because there was not enough ethnic cleansing, rape, and murder to warrant stopping it. His biggest argument seemed to be- there are some people doing bad things on the other side, so that justifies anything the serbs are doing.


Looked at some of his other articles, and I find that there is a LOT of opinion in his writings, and very questionable journalism (and I am being generous here). He apparently takes the view that by writing what he thinks and feels, it makes his writing THE TRUTH, confusing it with writing truthfully about his thoughts and feelings on issues.

Taibbi has a ax to grinned, likes another candidate, is a yellow journalist, in my opinion. Look it up yourself. I am not impressed with Taibbi, he seems to be very impressed with himself. Just because the right smears Democrats, doesn't mean we have to follow suit.

[Eurobabe]

29. Scat this

And eschatologize your ass over to: http://www.clarkmyths.com/
and do a little hermeneutics. Your teleology is off.

[freethought23]

34. Your pro-Clark propaganda site does not refute my comments

And you should look up big words before you use them. :)

[SidDithers]

46. NATO not impressed?...

List of foreign awards given to Clark:

# Honorary Knight Commander of the Most Excellent Order of the British Empire (United Kingdom)
# Commander of the Legion of Honor (France)
# Grand Cross of the Order of Merit of the Federal Republic of Germany
# Grand Officer of the Order of Merit of the Republic of Italy
# Grand Cross of the Medal of Military Merit (Portugal)
# The Commander's Cross with Star of the Order of Merit of Republic of Poland
# Grand Officer of the Order of Merit of the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg
# Grand Medal of Military Merit (White Band, Spain)
# The Grand Cordon of the Order of Leopold (Belgium)
# Cross of Merit of the Minister of Defense First Class (Czech Republic)
# Knight Grand Cross in the Order of Orange-Nassau, with Swords (Netherlands)
# Order of Merit of the Hungarian Republic
# Commander's Cross, The Silver Order of Freedom of the Republic of Slovenia
# Madarski Konnik Medal (Bulgaria)
# Commemorative Medal of the Minister of Defence of the Slovak Republic First Class (Slovakia)
# First Class Order of Lithuanian Grand Duke Gediminas (Lithuania)
# Order of the Cross of the Eagle (Estonia)
# The Skandeberg Medal (Albania)
# Order of Merit of Morocco
# Order of Merit of Argentina
# The Grade of Prince Butmir w/Ribbon and Star (Croatia)
# The Meritorious Service Cross (Canada)

http://www.torgo.us/wesley/leader.htm

Sid

[coralrf]

33. Duh..Spin..Duh..Spin....

what’s the difference?

NO ONE is saying that they will be "working with the USA"...except you. “Hand in Hand” are YOUR words. Not Clarks. Criticize yourself for them.
"muti-internatioal" sounds like a Bushism, criticize him for that. As for

What Arab or Moslem country will join the "multi-international" force to occupy Iraq ,

none. You put the word 'occupy' in there. Not the UN, Clark or the Arab States. Get on your own butt about that. It is your doing.

There is no reason to think that Many Arab nations would not participate in Iraq reconstruction if they felt THEY and NOT the USA had the real power to administer THEIR ideas. They have in fact objected to the USA not Iraq.

It is not inconceivable that the Iraqi's might see fellow Arabs as 'liberators'..freeing them from us. Like that one, your boy came up with it. Certainly secular nations such as Egypt and Saudi Arabia might join the party IF it is about IRAQ reconstruction as a secular Democratic State with a STRONG ARAB flavor. They want to contribute ideas not guns.

There is no reason to consider what you say. It is simply Anti-Clark and Pro-Bush spin.

DUH!

[freethought23]

35. I'll bet every other word you say is "Duh!" :)

So if I'm not pro-Clark, then I'm pro-Bush?
Your logic needs improvement.

And BTW, your post gets weaker and w e a k e r and w..e..a..k..e..r as it goes along until you start saying things like "It's not inconceivable that...." to justify your view.

Buck up, pal! Defend your candidate! He needs your help!

[coralrf]

39. Who is my candidate pal...

Tell me?

My logic is excellent and I would love to take on your spin any time. You have made no illustration of logic you just used the word. Much like many here on DU..

Read this a few times..you wrote it...:

you start saying things like "'''It's not inconceivable that...." to justify your view.''''..

come on read it a few times.

Let me tell you a little about communication. One of the cardinal rules of the Art when practiced by adults is to go after message and not delivery. You can look it up as they say. Another important lesson teaches us to avoid at all times such phrases as "so what you are trying to say is" or "what you are saying is" as they are nothing but cheap tricks. A not so elegant variation of these scams is to synthesize a synopsis of ones words that in no way can be derived from them. You do that a lot.

[freethought23]

41. You are obviously a Clark-bot

Congratulations on surrendering your autonomy. :)

[dax]

23. Chalabi is the problem...

He is completely discreditted with all Iraqis and represents a puppet government to all of them-he represents the future oligarths that want to run the US businesses once the precious Iraqi national assets are privatized-the only way to get out is to TURN IRAQ OVER to the international community INTACT without privatizing its resources and GIVING UP ANY STAKE in the oil water or anything else. Then help pay for re building without control and let Iraq choose a leadership that may or may NOT decide to privatize anything!! they don't have to..

[freethought23]

24. You are absolutely right about Chalabi

In addition to everything else, he is a big-time crook, who has been convicted of financial crimes in Jordan which left many people who trusted him bankrupt and destitute.

But I don't think turning Iraq over to the international community is the answer, because (1) the international community doesn't want the job, and (2) Iraqi insurgents don't want the international community running their affairs. The attacks on the Jordanian Embassy, UN Headquarters, the Italians, the Spanish and (today) the Japanese are proof of this.

The only thing to do, in my opinion, is to just pull out. Turn the government over to Chalabi and our puppets, who will last a few days, and then let Iraqis decide for themselves what to do. If this means warlords, or an Islamic Republic, or the return of the Baathists, or a struggle between Shiites, Kurds and Sunnis, that will just have to be accepted.

The alternative is escalating violence and bloodshed by our troops and against troops (and/or their international counterparts)into the indefinite future.

[KittyWampus]

30. Bush Failed To Negotiate With The Europeans

That is a FACT. The Neocons were unwilling to cede any real authority.

So your assertion that the Europeans will never agree to getting involved is completely baseless.

And to suggest leaving things in control of Chalabi who has no support amongst the Iraqi population and let Iraq descend into civil War is irresponsible and inhumane.

[freethought23]

36. Bush failed and so will Clark

I have given reasons on several occasions in this thread why I think the Europeans will not get involved.

But why would anyone want them to get involved? So that there would be more foreign invaders to divide up the looting of Iraq's oil? That would be the only motive for Europeans to put their troops in harm's way. But that only compounds the immorality. Foreigners should get out and stay out of Iraq. They have no right to be there.

As far as letting Iraq descend into civil war, it would at least be their war and their self-determination. The US would not be murdering them as at present.

BTW, supporters of the Vietnam war always claimed that there would be a "bloodbath" if the US left.

It never happened.

[coralrf]

38. How can you lie like that?

THere is not a shred of truth in any of your post.

[freethought23]

42. How can you slander like that?

If there is something false in my post, refute it.

[coralrf]

40. You know more about wars than Clark ofcourse

and you read the papers a lot too?

The Italians and the Spanish are staying. They said so. You better tell them how to feel as they are certainly making a mistake not fulfilling your prophecy.

The Iraqi whoever because we do not know who they are, have served no clear notice at all. You pay for spin you get spin. The non USA forces are more available for targeting now as the US has largely pulled into the Green Zone. Read. You will see this.

Your assessments of Viet Nam are a bit out of synch with what happened. Ask the hundreds of thousands of VN refugees that poured into the USA after the collapse. You cannot ask the millions killed but HEYYYYYYY..that don’t mean a bloodbath right!!!

We went into Viet Nam wrong and we got out wrong. We went into Iraq wrong but that does not mean we go out wrong. 46 wrongs do not make a right.

[freethought23]

44. Well, at least I didn't want to start World War III

Click on this link to the BBC to see how Wesley almost caused Armageddon.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/671495.stm

[tabasco]

43. Nobody wants to help Bush - they WOULD help Clark.

Nobody wants to help Bush because he and the neocon cabal caused the war for selfish motives, and insist on an American monopoly of power. Clark would get the international community onboard because he would end the insistence on an American monopoly and scrap the pre-emptive war doctrine. Clark would not be a tool of the corporations. The world will help us when we are once again an honest and reliable member of the world community. That won't happen until Bush is OUT!

[Rose Siding]

14. Good

He needed to ratchet it up after the campaign's comments yesterday-

snip>
Matt Bennett, the communications director for Gen. Wesley K. Clark, said: "We're not going to throw stones at the guy for trying to do a nice thing for the troops. When the president goes and spends time with the troops, that's a good thing."

http://www.nytimes.com/2003/11/28/politics/campaigns/28DEMS.html

There was a time when it was all cricket to praise your opponent, but the stakes have changed that. "When he's drowning, throw him an anchor" Clinton said.

Bennett's statement is *almost* at odds with today's criticism.

[robbedvoter]

28. NY Times quoted the campaign's position wrongly as usual

Wash Post did a better job:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A17520-2003Nov27.html
"Chris Lehane, a strategist for retired Gen. Wesley K. Clark's presidential campaign, said Democrats would not fault Bush for visiting the troops.
'It's absolutely appropriate to be honoring our soldiers overseas in battle on a day like Thanksgiving,' he said. 'It's more important to honor them every day, which includes allowing us to appropriately honor the heroes who come back in caskets and giving our troops a strategy so they're not there next Thanksgiving.'"

Note the Noc 27 date on this.

[Rose Siding]

31. NYT quoted Bennett, you have Lehane

It looks like Bennett quoted the campaign's position wrongly but he's the communication director isn't he? If it's wrong, they should demand a correction.

What's dated the 27th? Both the Post and the NYT have the 28th date.

[ILeft]

15. Either Clark is a master at "god-cop-bad-cop" or he is for real!

I appreciate his straight talk and the way he has been putting Junior in his place. How the hell is Rove going to smear Clark?

How about Clark/Gore in '04?

[diamond14]

25. shrub turns away...sobbing during photo-op...pathetic (pic)

[ILeft]

32. The crying really has to stop. Shrub's weakness could spread.

I guess the fragile mental state that allows these too frequent breakdowns is one of the things that make Chimpy so eminently qualified to lead the World. He just inspires confidence!

[Zhade]

37. I agree with this:

Clark said the president should also honor our fallen warriors and injured heroes by allowing for public recognition when they return to the states so they and their families can be honored by the whole nation.

It's an insult to do anything less.

[Renew Deal]

47. Absolutly correct

I don't know why every politician and citizen in this country isn't demanding that.