[Hillary] Clinton says, 'Stay the course'

[freethought23]

WASHINGTON - Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said Friday the United States "must stay the course" in both Afghanistan and Iraq and called for more military personnel to finish the job.

The New York Democrat has spent two event-filled days meeting soldiers, leaders and citizens in Afghanistan and Iraq, and she spoke in a telephone interview from Kuwait.

"We have to exert all of our efforts militarily, but the outcome (in Iraq) is not assured," she said.

<snip>

"I left Afghanistan feeling very positive about what our military personnel had accomplished there, but I am not very confident that we have adequate forces to accomplish the many missions we have been asked to handle," Clinton said.

http://www.buffalonews.com/editorial/20031129/1053287.asp

[opihimoimoi]

1. She is absolutely right. We cannot cut and run as Reagan did in Beruit

But what we can and should be doing

is to find ways to accomplish the job efficently and effectively. The solutions from the Right Wing thus far comes up nagging.

We need better coaches and game planners. The ones we got now are on the "take".

[freethought23]

2. Why not? We did it in Vietnam.

During the Vietnam war, people said "we cannot cut and run" for 10 years until, 58,000 dead GI's later, we were forced to cut and run. Let's do it now before the cost goes up.

[drewb]

30. Excellent point...

But I guess it's only relevant to those 58,000 dead Americans...

[Bandit]

34. And what did it cost the US in credibility?

Remember the US gave it's word we would protect those people from Northern aggression. We cut and ran and left them to fend for themselves. The difference between Vietnam and both Iraq or Afghanistan is that Vietnam asked us to be there and we even signed agreements that we would protect them. Neither Afghanistan or Iraq has asked us there and in fact both have asked us to leave. If we give a country our word we will do something we should do it. Leave it to a Republican to go back on our word. We lost a lot of credibility with that withdrawal.

[coralrf]

36. Freethought..did you ever put your hand on a hot burner..??

We all have and guess what? We all never did it again. Yes we ran from Viet Nam. South East Indochina was a mess for 20 after we did. Sure we created the mess with 8 years of wasted war but we cannot make the same mistake again. Yes we wrecked Iraq as we did VN but I disagree with past posts that suggest that our abandoning VN created no problems. By leaving we set the VC and North Vietnam free to cross boarders with their ideology. Millions were killed. If we run now no democrat can fix the mess…he will just be left holding the bag.

The USA cannot afford a "hit and run" image and for the life of me why do Democrats suggest that we can. Is your dedication to whipping up on republicans greater that your desire to see Iraq and the USA sound? Take great care in considering that question as it will be a major thrust in 2004: "Democrats want to ruin America..and here is the proof."...brought to you by the GOP…

[freethought23]

38. Our hand is on the hot burner again

I disagree with your evaluation of the results of the US pullout from Vietnam. A "bloodbath," was predicted, but none happened. Vietnam has been opened to capitalism. The US trades with Vietnam and US companies invest there. US citizens travel there and (amazingly) are treated well.

US world prestige suffered, not from the pullout, but from the fact that we invaded Vietnam in the first place and stayed there so long and killed so many people.

Your analogy with the hot burner is a good one. When the pain got too great, we left. That will happen in Iraq, too. But as Vietnam shows, the US can keep its hand on a hot burner for a long time, like G. Gordon Liddy, who used to hold his open palm over a candle flame to impress people with his ability to stand pain.

Let's not be like G. Gordon Liddy. Let's learn from experience and take our hand off the burner sooner rather than later.

[sangh0]

42. No bloodbath happened??? WTF??!??

Ever hear of Pol Pot?

[Dhalgren]

44. Are you blamming the rise of PolPot on the US withdrawing

from Vietnam? I think you should rethink that.

[sangh0]

47. NO. I'm pointing out

that there was a bloodbath.

[freethought23]

52. The bloodbath was in CAMBODIA, & Vietnam ended it after US withdrawal

Get it?

Educate yourself. Click on this link:

http://servercc.oakton.edu/~wittman/chronol.htm

[bobbyboucher]

53. Maybe if we hadn't laid waste to their nation

by carpet bombing, the whole place wouldn't have ended up like it did. Just another thought.

Was the carpet bombing of Cambodia a good thing?

[freethought23]

54. Laying waste

Carpet bombing is never a good thing.

Interestingly, the Vietnamese really did liberate the Cambodians from a brutal dictator. Then they left. They didn't try to control the country or steal its resources as we are attempting to do in Iraq.

[freethought23]

51. Pol Pot was in CAMBODIA, not Vietnam

After the Vietnam war, Vietnam invaded Cambodia and overthrew Pol Pot.

http://servercc.oakton.edu/~wittman/chronol.htm

Check your facts before you get excited.

[papau]

18. one day trained guards, 21 day trained police -and we run- Hill is correct

Making things worse by cut and running does not make sense. But she also said give up political control to NATO/UN type body and go international on the operation.

Why is it when the obvious is said by a Clinton, the media, all of the right, and some of the left, treat it as suspect?

[freethought23]

23. I think she is incorrect.

"Exerting all our efforts militarily" (as Hillary wants to do) is certain to make things worse.

[IndianaGreen]

28. Reagan's mistake is that he took sides in the Lebanese civil war

We were welcomed as heroes by the Shiites in Beirut when we first arrived ther. Reagan chose to ally himself with the Christian Phalange, the same rightwing group that allied itself with Ariel Sharon a few years later. The US Navy bombarded Shiite neighborhoods of Beirut, killing many civilians. The attack on the Marine barracks was in retaliation for that.

Pulling out of Lebanon was the wisest thing that Reagan did.

[sangh0]

43. Shallow analysis

There's a reason why Reagan supported the Christian Phalangists, and it's a lot like why he went into Lebanon in the 1st place - it was to support the Isrealis.

Reagans mistake was letting the Israelis invade Lebanon.

[grytpype]

3. Stay, leave, whatever we do will be the wrong move.

The only right move was to not invade Iraq in the first place, and it's too late for that now.

All we can do is hope this doesn't become a catastrophe.

[freethought23]

5. How about trying the least wrong move?

I think that means leaving now. Everything else costs more.

[Cooley Hurd]

4. I wish she didn't use the term "stay the course"

She confused it with what she really meant, which is, since we bombed the shit out of Afghanistan and Iraq, we should remain persistent in rebuilding them and promoting a democratic form of govt in each. And she would like more countries and NATO chipping in with the effort.

"Staying the course" means more of the same, failed policy... :eyes:

[freethought23]

6. I don't think this was a verbal slip.

She also said, "We have to exert all of our efforts militarily...."

[Kat 333]

12. It seems that the military

with capable minded management and a sound "plan" would be the only hopes of "possibly" bringing some stability to a wore torn country. After all it was an unprovoked attack on innocent people. To just up and say "see ya" (after opening up their country to a wide array of horrendous elements that were Not present beforehand) seems just a wee bit cold don't you think ?

[freethought23]

24. I don't think so.

You have a point--the only really good argument against leaving. We do owe an obligation to the Iraqi people for the damage we have done. And leaving would leave them in chaos. That is more than just a 'wee bit cold.'

But here is my thought: staying and escalating the war as we are doing is going to cause more damage and distress than anything the Iraqi people can do to each other.

The US should offer financial assistance to whatever government takes over after we leave--even if it's an Islamic Republic or a Baathist regime. This would do wonders for our reputation in the Arab/Moslem world.

Bush can't do this (just pull out). But a Democrat could. Unfortunately, I don't see anyone in the Democratic stable, who would do this, except possibly Kucinich, and he doesn't have a chance.

[salmonhorse]

7. "course"? What "course"?

Utter and complete domination of the whorld's remaining portfolio enriched (and entropy prone) resouces by faceless American corporate entities harbored by off-shore, out-sourced larbor pools? Eh, fuck...why the hell not. Nobody gives a shit any-hoo'z ~

:shrug:

Sure...stay the freaking course. It is already bought & paid for by the blood & treasure of our great, great grandchildren therefore: whatever.

Above all on the political landscape; Hillary knew & knows damn straight what political expediancy looks like (she should, however, by & by, bald-faced and w/sincerity apologize for fucking up the universal health care climate). She is an ole pro at such matters make no mistake. The ball is already rolling. Like a nickered or petty coated child from the 1800's with a hoop and a stick running down a dirt road, one need only to give it a little tap every so often and there will be fun for hours if you can keep up with it...the hoop that is.

[freethought23]

8. Could you explain that metaphor about the girl with the hoop?

Is the hoop the war? Hillary's presidential campaign? What?

[salmonhorse]

13. The re-publican 'war on terrorism' is the hoop...

...and too many Dems bought into it for fear of being cast as a 'liberal' nay-sayer. Afraid, they voted against their better judgment for crass & simple political reasons. And now we see before us what indeed we see before us: war, and the profiteering of war and war products = fear, delusion, secret visitations, photo-ops...and of course the dead and the dying themselves.

Tap "the hoop" and the game rolls forward until it is stopped.

"Those who are not busy being born are busy dying..." ~ B. Dylan

[freethought23]

25. Good post

n/m

[specimenfred1984]

9. She Should Send Chelsea Then

She's nothing more than a chickenhawk in this instance.

If the US pulled out now, other nations would quickly help out in Iraq. The only risk of pulling out is the risk that the corrupt US would lose business.

Guess what, we're losing more business around the world due to these war-lie conspiracies than ever! DUH!

Hey Hillary, whatever happened to that healthcare promise? How about that NYC air-quality? How about sending your own kid over there to "boost a US presence"?

With democrats like this, who needs pukes?

[tinanator]

22. goddamned right!

What a crooked piece of crap. Check her bloodlines, I think theres some Bush in there!

[Mr_Bleedingheart]

49. so leaving is the answer?

I don't think so.
We created this mess, we left last time and made it much worse, we need to stay and clean it up this time.
What we need is more international involvement, so that our role is not so large.

[pasadenaboy]

10. right about Afghanistan, wrong about Iraq.

nm

[truthisfreedom]

11. i think she's using a strategy designed to further her position as Senator

so that she's able to gain more power. i don't think she really has any answers when it comes to Iraq... nobody does... it's mayhem. Clark, maybe, has some ideas.

[9215]

32. Yep, its all politics

It is political suicide to voice dissent from official policy when in the field with the troops, remember "Baghdad Jim".

This is a very Clintonesque manuever, it defangs the Repugs.

[Just Me]

14. Terribly disappointing "rhetoric",...

,...did she really use those words, "stay the course"? Geez,..us,...crap!!! She the supposed "liberal one" just made "occupation" an even greater threat. Why couldn't she, knowing full well how impactful are mere words, come up with something more conducive to a helpful image rather than perpetuate the image of domination advanced by this arrogant administration? I am disappointed, and angry. I mean, I agree that, since this brazenly empirical (totally disconnected from reality) administration created a horrifying mess in that poor country, we are responsible for cleaning it up. But,...why couldn't she have invented better verbiage towards an Iraqi vision (instead of perpetuating arrogant American dominance)? Good God,...I am so PO'd! And why the hell is she advocating MORE American troop presence? Has she completely lost her cookies? Has she bought into the "Gotta WIN" for America mentality? That's what it "looks" like. If her objective is FOR Iraqis,...she had d*mned better make that objective clear. Her words, "stay the course",...muddles the sh*t already hitting the fan!I don't know,...like,...geez,...off the cuff,...I could have come up with a more conducive commitment towards empowering an Iraqi course. Why couldn't she have stated something like,..."Securing Iraqis for Iraqis" or "Handing Iraq to the people who compose Iraq",...or,...something which shifts the power to those people? God, no wonder there is so much anti-Americanism all over the globe!!! We still act like we have "control" even when we obviously do NOT!!! We have got to get the UN seriously involved,...let go of the need to "control",...guarantee their protection,...break security (policing-type) around Iraq into sections,...and put a sh*t-load of investment into giving the Iraqi people PURPOSE in creating their life and country (where those billions should be spent). Otherwise, FACE FAILURE!!! Ugh,...I feel sick!!!

[T Bone]

20. right, next up, wingers telling us how Hillary supports BushWar

and so why can't we ?
Thanks so fucking much, Hillary.
I'm sorry I think designs on 2008 play into this kind of talk for her.

[coralrf]

37. Maybe she knows something that you dont...

Like a whole lot of shit that a US Senator who sits on the Senate Armed Services Committee might know. Maybe she is doing the best with what she CAN say and the best with what she CANNOT say.

You have not really criticized Sen. Clinton at all. You have taken issue not with issues but choices of words. "Staying the course" would suggest we continue what was or stated purpose: the liberation of Iraq. You can make of the words what you will but I do think Sen. Clinton articulates a position that Iraqi's and the World might see as an improvement in the USA's intentions.

If the job takes more troops as virtually all non partisan analyst have suggested it does than why not say that? Sen. Clinton is OK if she tells the truth my friend..really.

Interesting stealth post though. Requiring perfection is a giveaway…you should avoid it.

[Zhade]

40. If she does know more...

...then why did she vote for the war, when even people like myself knew at the time that the excuses the Bush* administration used in the run-up to Operation Occupation were complete and utter bullshit?

[Scott Lee]

15. This is what's wrong with the Dem power structure

And Hillary Clinton, as one of it's spokespersons, has just exemplified it for us. They not only follow bad GOP policy ("you go to Iraq? OK I'll go to Afghanistan!") pander to it (IWR Vote) or even go along with it (Rose Garden Quislings Lieberman and Gep), they end up using it's propaganda too (stay the course).

Dump this tired old corrupt system now. Overhaul the Democratic Leadership.

[bvar22]

16. THERE ARE OTHER ALTERNATIVES!!!!!!

Hillary is aiding the NeoCons and helping to perpetuate an illegal and immoral war and occupation!!!

There are other alternatives to the FOOL'S CHOICE of Staying the Course or cut and run!!!

1) Turn over the Occupation to UN and NATO...not just demand that they supply us with their troops to be used for cannon fodder.

2)Remove bush* appointed commanders from the Middle East theatre; use Nato commanders to police the transition.

3)Continue to supply that lion's share of money for transitional Peace Keeping by legitimate multinational forces.

4) Disband the Council of Quislings! Under UN supervision, have local areas elect represenatives to a represenative council to write an Iraqi Constitution that provides for elections and porportional representation to a governing body!

5)Expell ALL US Corporations from Iraq! Completely turn over all resources and rebuilding to the Iraqis. Continue to supply funds for rebuilding on a diminishing schedule that compensates Iraq for the damage we caused!


The above measures will go a LONG way to the building of a democracy in Iraq.

I do not believe that ANYTHING can prevent the coming civil war in Iraq.

[MrPrax]

19. Bingo...

You win...you get to run foreign policy.

Amazing Hillary never bother to point out a few alternatives that have been floating about the democratic party for a few months...
Too busy voting to attack Syria I presume...

:yourock:

[PATRICK]

35. Double Bingo

Now that is an intelligent opposition party reaction to a wrong like the Iraq War. Which means the author of this alternative list is more up to speed than our hapless senators and should consider higher office based on this issue. Being able to spell out WHY this quagmire won't be resolved in this logical way, namely to aid Halliburton et. al. in the oil fields should also be a requisite for government service.

[Mr_Bleedingheart]

50. I agree

[Jacobin]

17. We are soooo fucked.

Neo cons infiltrating Dem party.

[Resistance]

21. I can't believe

that I used to like Hilary.

[shanti]

33. i never really liked her

but i always thought that she was better than the alternative. i'm not so sure anymore. her hubby's record on the WOD was disheartening also.

i don't trust her anymore....:shrug:

[freethought23]

39. She reminds me of every soulless corporate lawyer.

Everything human has been set aside for the sake of ambition.

[teryang]

26. Now the repukes know they're in trouble

When their idiotic policy gets endorsed by Hillary. She doesn't have a clue.

[IndianaGreen]

27. Hillary, the great Iraq expert!

She is making the same mistake, and using the same language, as those that resisted withdrawing from Vietnam. Such idiocy achieved only one thing: it added more names to a black marble monument in Washington, DC.

Let's not repeat the mistakes of the past, withdraw from Iraq now!

[Dhalgren]

45. 100% accurate!!

End this obscenity, now! How can we pull out of Irag now? Start loading the fucking planes right now, last one out toss the keys to the nearest cheering Iraqi!

[fishnfla]

29. Bring 'em on!, Hillary

March! left right left right left right left right


what difference does it make?

[abelenkpe]

31. Helloooo

"We have to exert all of our efforts militarily, but the outcome (in Iraq) is not assured," she said.

Does anyone else have a problem with this statement? We have to exert all our efforts militarily? Somehow I feel this has contributed more to the world's woes than solved them. You cannot attain peace through bloodshed. And if the outcome is not assured, even if we do decide to send more of our kids to die in Iraq, why are we considering sending them there at all? Is it pride? Are we to stay the course to ameliorate our national pride? At what cost? How many lives will we lose before we say enough? How many public service programs will be lost as we spend all of our taxpayer dollars on this charade? Hillary should be ashamed for playing the corporate stooge. Our country needs to get out and let the UN take over. Only with a concerted effort by the entire world community can anything positive come out of the tragedy that is our war with Iraq.

[info being]

41. Which makes her DOA as a Pres candidate

either this year or ever for that matter.

[ultrafoil]

46. I been thinking

about Clarks plan for Iraq, when he say's he'd like to train 20,000 American Arabic speaking cops on the ground, while the marines and army pull out.

First off, who the hell would volenteer for that duty?

It's ludicrous, on it's face.

Second, aren't they going to get shot or blown up just the same?

The Shia rule Iraq, give it up, General.

And you're my candidate, sir.

[freethought23]

48. He's got to settle on just one main idea and stick with it

The one about 20,000 American Arabic speaking cops isn't it.

I wish he would stick with "Let's get out of there ASAP." He could call it a "phased withdrawal to allow Iraqis the freedom to determine their own destiny."