AP: Startling findings in probe of Tillman's death

[DeepModem Mom]

Startling findings in probe of Tillman's death
By SCOTT LINDLAW and MARTHA MENDOZA, Associated Press Writers
Wednesday, November 8, 2006
(This Associated Press story was scheduled for publication on Sunday but the embargo was broken by several newspaper websites earlier today.)

....The latest inquiry into (Pat) Tillman's death by friendly fire should end next month; authorities have said they intend to release to the public only a synopsis of their report. But The Associated Press has combed through the results of 21/4 years of investigations -- reviewed thousands of pages of internal Army documents, interviewed dozens of people familiar with the case -- and uncovered some startling findings.

One of the four shooters, Staff Sgt. Trevor Alders, had recently had PRK laser eye surgery. Although he could see two sets of hands "straight up," his vision was "hazy," he said. In the absence of "friendly identifying signals," he assumed Tillman and an allied Afghan who also was killed were enemy.

Another, Spc. Steve Elliott, said he was "excited" by the sight of rifles, muzzle flashes and "shapes." A third, Spc. Stephen Ashpole, said he saw two figures, and just aimed where everyone else was shooting.

Squad leader Sgt. Greg Baker had 20-20 eyesight, but claimed he had "tunnel vision." Amid the chaos and pumping adrenaline, Baker said he hammered what he thought was the enemy but was actually the allied Afghan fighter next to Tillman who was trying to give the Americans cover: "I zoned in on him because I could see the AK-47. I focused only on him."

All four failed to identify their targets before firing, a direct violation of the fire discipline techniques drilled into every soldier.

There's more:

-- Tillman's platoon had nearly run out of vital supplies, according to one of the shooters. They were down to the water in their Camelbak drinking pouches, and were forced to buy a goat from a local vendor. Delayed supply flights contributed to the hunger, fatigue and possibly misjudgments by platoon members....

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/11/08/BAG7NM76RO2.DTL

[NVMojo]

1. Bush and Rumsfeld knew this was going to break today ....

[saigon68]

23. "just aimed where everyone else was shooting."

SOUNDS LIKE THE MURDERERS AT KENT STATE 1970

[barb162]

48. seems like t hey weren't paying ANY attention to their training

[anotherdrew]

2. so is rummy staying or will there be an 'acting' secretary soon? n/t

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

3. Face it: They were following orders.

Three marines with bad vision, and one who was "excited". Damn fine story, guys!

I really, really really and truly bleeve ya.

[RamboLiberal]

5. Not marines - they were Army Rangers

Just wanted to correct. I was always amazed that a more elite group than the normal grunts showed such poor fire discipline.

What an embarassment for the Army that they killed the "poster boy".

And Tillman and his Kevin brother - amazing guys.

Not surprising the poor supplies - story of Rummy's military. There's still troops in Afghanistan and Iraq lacking some of the basics. Just go read the anysoldier.com website and see what troops are asking for people to send.

And I still wonder like the Tillman's - was he murdered? I've always wonder if it was some kind of jealousy at his fame and stature in the Army. Or his political stance rubbed the Freepers in the unit the wrong way.

[0007]

18. So when ya don't want to be a poster boy and ya want to tell

the truth about the slop being fed the American people. YOU go the way mafia style. 'eh?

This is a joke...

One of the four shooters, Staff Sgt. Trevor Alders, had recently had PRK laser eye surgery. Although he could see two sets of hands "straight up," his vision was "hazy," he said. In the absence of "friendly identifying signals," he assumed Tillman and an allied Afghan who also was killed were enemy.

Another, Spc. Steve Elliott, said he was "excited" by the sight of rifles, muzzle flashes and "shapes." A third, Spc. Stephen Ashpole, said he saw two figures, and just aimed where everyone else was shooting.

Squad leader Sgt. Greg Baker had 20-20 eyesight, but claimed he had "tunnel vision." Amid the chaos and pumping adrenaline, Baker said he hammered what he thought was the enemy but was actually the allied Afghan fighter next to Tillman who was trying to give the Americans cover: "I zoned in on him because I could see the AK-47. I focused only on him."

These guys are Rangers?

[Arkansas Granny]

19. I just wanted to comment on anysoldier.com. If DUer's want to

show support for our troops, I suggest that you check it out, or one of many similar sites. A co-worker (who has a son serving in Iraq) and I send 2 - 3 care packages a week and the replies we get from the soldiers we send to tell a lot. They really appreciate that someone is thinking about them and these packages and letters are great for morale.

[brentspeak]

26. Thanks for that link.

[RamboLiberal]

33. I try to send a package a month

Got a little tapped out donating during the elections to Dem candidates, but I intend to get back on it next pay.

[Swede]

21. If this was an elite unit,I'd hate to run into a regular unit.

This was a clusterfuck up and down.

[rman]

25. I think mere suggestion would have been enough

The upside of suggestion is that it allows for plausible deniability on part of the instigators.

[Irreverend IX]

39. Well, it's true that combat can play havoc with your senses.

People in stressful, life-threatening situations tend to hone on a few elements of their environment to the exclusion of others. Troops in battle have been known to be totally oblivious to enemies standing right beside them as they fire on enemies in front. Tunnel vision isn't unique to the soldier mentioned in the story; it affects many people in violent situations. Anyone who's been in a fight knows how time slows down and you become hyperfocused, and this is especially true of soldiers who are hungry, thirsty and anxious. Of course, this doesn't excuse them for not identifying their targets, but there's no evidence there was any conspiracy to rub him out. It just bespeaks the incompetence with which the Pentagon handled the Afghanistan mission.

[mirandapriestly]

4. His parents think it's more than an accident

How convenient that Rumsfeld left today.

[JCMach1]

6. Tillman may have been murdered, or FRAGGED

Yikes!

[underpants]

10. I completely agree-they couldn't have him coming back to the states

and meeting with Chomsky and maybe becoming a very visible anti-war (Iraq) voice. He could have brought the whole ESPN crowd over to Kerry's side.

No way that could happen.

Still no one can tell us who the CIA Afghani was who was with Tillman and the other soldier. I'm not saying he did it but I think Tillman's platoon was going to get stuck in many situations that presented a great chance of harm being done. Most of this platoon was new to war, this was their first firefight. A perfect situation to put someone in especially since he was bound to take a leadership role and create greater risk for himself.

[Toots]

7. This is far more typical than one might think

When bullets and shrapnel are flying people are not at their best. Hell a lot don't even look where they are shooting, they just shoot in a certain direction hoping the enemy is as scared as they are and will keep their heads down as well. Chickenhawks know how to do it waayyy better I'm sure..

[rman]

11. But, two out of four soldiers with eye problems?

I sure hope that's not typical...

[Toots]

15. I don't know about eye problems but not looking at where the gun is shooting is common

When bullets are flying most people can't get themselves close enough to the ground. I have witnessed it many times. People just keep their heads next to the ground and point their weapon in front of them and fire. Just to make noise if nothing else. War is quite a bit different than you see in the movies..

[sendero]

41. It's hard to make ..

... head shots when you do that.

[Toots]

42. You think so do you.

When a fire team is spraying an area with automatic fire they do not need pin point sighting. It is apparent to me you have never witnessed a fire fight...

[mhatrw]

36. You know what else is more typical than one might think?

Using the "fog of war" as a cover for cold blooded murder.

[underpants]

8. Link to VIDEO-ESPN report featuring several platton members (30:00 total)

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/underpants/73

[rman]

27. youtube says "video removed by user"

[leftchick]

9. it was murder

simple as that. :(

[wicket]

13. It certainly was

They burned his uniform after killing him to cover it up :cry:

[wicket]

12. His "buddies" burned his uniform after killing him

A field hospital report says someone tried to jump-start Tillman's heart with CPR hours after his head had been partly blown off and his corpse wrapped in a poncho; key evidence including Tillman's body armor and uniform was burned.

:grr: :grr:

[klook]

14. The real problem was Tillman's vision: his eyes had been opened

"I don't believe it," seethed Ann Coulter.

Her contempt was directed at a September 25 San Francisco Chronicle story reporting that former NFL star and Army Ranger war hero Pat Tillman, who was killed in Afghanistan last year, believed the US war on Iraq was "f***ing illegal" and counted Noam Chomsky among his favorite authors. It must have been quite a moment for Coulter, who upon Tillman's death described him in her inimitably creepy fashion as "an American original--virtuous, pure and masculine like only an American male can be." She tried to discredit the story as San Francisco agitprop, but this approach ran into a slight problem: The article's source was Pat Tillman's mother, Mary.

source: "Pat Tillman, Our Hero" by Dave Zirin, The Nation, posted October 6, 2005

From what I've read, it seems entirely plausible that these guys fragged Tillman, and the story that's coming out is an attempt at CYA. If it was really an accident, why the hell did they burn his uniform?

[NorthernSpy]

20. well put...

Good post, Klook!

:applause:

[rman]

24. Ain't that the f'in truth

[Theres-a]

30. Absolutely.

Awful.Awful.Awful.Poor vision my ass.

[AlCzervik]

16. they all could see well enough to start a fire and burn his uniform.

[williesgirl]

17. K&R

[Blue_Tires]

22. wow....

more than 2 years investigating this? I wonder if they are that thorough with all the suspicious FF deaths over there

[brentspeak]

28. I'd like to point something out here that many people so far seem ignorant about

First, posters here making allegations that Tillman was fragged by his mates neglect to take into account that there haven't even been murder charges filed in this case. Respectfully, except for Pat Tillman's family, people should shut up about making accusations of "murder" or "fragged" unless and until formal accusations are actually made.

Second, Tillman had a lot of good friends in his platoon; if there really was foul play involved in Tillman's death, it would be outrageous for the wrong people to be implicated by public rumor.

[rman]

29. Why do you think the army lied about the circumstances of Tillman's death

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcqLlT44rR8&mode=related&search=

[brentspeak]

31. I don't know. I agree, the whole thing stinks.

For all I know, they might have been forced by people high-on-up (you know who) to turn a friendly fire incident into a heroic, patriotic story for the masses to lap up. From all reports, it sounds like the Army is now investigating the incident ruthlessly, without any outside interference.

[rman]

32. When i commit a crime, i too want to investigate myself ruthlessly,

without any outside interference.

[Irreverend IX]

40. That makes a lot more sense than the "fragged" theory.

I think the fact of the matter is that the most powerful military on Earth was so badly mismanaged it couldn't give its soldiers on the ground the equipment and logistical support they needed (and it still can't), and the indirect result of that was lots of cases of friendly fire and mistaken killing. The Rangers who shot Tillman were probably shell-shocked that they'd committed such a grave error and tried to cover it up by burning the uniform--incompetent and deserving of a court martial, but not malicious. And then the Pentagon tried to turn Tillman into a martyr for their cause and the whole thing went to hell. It's common knowledge that troops in the Middle East are getting terrible support from their command, with shortages of food and water and lots of "accidental discharge" deaths that are swept under the rug. That's easier to believe than "fragged for being a liberal" conspiracy theories.

[RamboLiberal]

34. It's called speculation

And you have to wonder. It happened in Nam if you were too damn gung ho or just an ass who could get people killed. My speculation on the Tillman incident is that this was supposedly an elite unit of Rangers. You'd think at least these guys might try to identify their target and since they had Afganis with them with AK-47s I don't quite buy that as an excuse.

I also wondered it Tillman might have been too damn gung ho and these guys didn't care for it.

Or Freeper's in the unit didn't care for his dissing Iraq war - remember he had served there.

Might not have been murder, but it sure was dereliction and a cover up from the unit in the field to the Pentagon to Rummy's office.

[mhatrw]

37. Who is supposed to be filing these murder charges?

Who are we supposed to wait for to make "formal accusations" before we make a patently obvious leap of deduction?

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

35. Smells like Bush's Porta-Potty.

Smells like Paris in July.

Smells like roomsful of dead maggots.

Frankly, I will be satisfied when his family is satisfied.

[file83]

38. War! Huh...Good God Y'all....What is it Good For???

absolutely NOTHING.

[WePurrsevere]

43. kick

:kick:

[Last Stand]

44. Tillman investigations yield some startling findings

One of the four shooters, Staff Sgt. Trevor Alders, had recently had PRK laser eye surgery. Although he could see two sets of hands "straight up," his vision was "hazy," he said. In the absence of "friendly identifying signals," he assumed Tillman and an allied Afghan -- who also was killed -- were enemy.
snip
• A key commander in the events that led to Tillman's death both was reprimanded for his role and meted out punishments to those who fired, raising questions of conflict of interest.

• A field hospital report says someone tried to jump-start Tillman's heart with CPR hours after his head had been partly blown off and his corpse wrapped in a poncho; key evidence including Tillman's body armor and uniform was burned.
snip
The Pentagon's failure to reveal for more than a month that Tillman was killed by friendly fire raised suspicions of a cover-up. One investigator told Tillman's family that officials haven't ruled out that Tillman was shot by an American sniper or deliberately murdered by his own men -- though he also gave no indication the evidence pointed that way.

more
http://www.sportsline.com/nfl/story/9789986

[Ian David]

45. I didn't know that Bill Frist was volunteering as a military medic!

• A field hospital report says someone tried to jump-start Tillman's heart with CPR hours after his head had been partly blown off and his corpse wrapped in a poncho; key evidence including Tillman's body armor and uniform was burned.

What the fuck is WRONG with people!

[Judi Lynn]

46. Findings raise questions in Tillman's death

Nov. 10, 2006, 7:34AM
Findings raise questions in Tillman's death
4 shooters failed to identify targets before they fired

By SCOTT LINDLAW and MARTHA MENDOZA
Associated Press

In a remote and dangerous corner of Afghanistan, under the protective roar of Apache attack helicopters and B-52 bombers, special agents and investigators did their work.

They walked the landscape with surviving witnesses. They found a rock stained with the blood of the victim. They re-enacted the killings — here the U.S. Army Rangers swept through the canyon in their Humvee, blasting away; here the doomed man waved his arms, pleading for recognition as a friend, not an enemy.

"Cease fire, friendlies, I am Pat (expletive) Tillman, damn it!" the NFL star shouted, again and again.
(snip)

The three other shooters — Ashpole, Alders and Elliott — remained in the service initially but Elliott and Ashpole have since left. Elliott struck a deal with authorities; in exchange for his testimony to investigator Jones, the Army gave him immunity from prosecution "in any criminal proceedings."

The platoon leader, Lt. David Uthlaut, was later bumped down from the Rangers to the regular Army for failing to prepare his men prior to the shootings, according to Bailey.
(snip/...)

http://chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4324572.html

[Disturbed]

47. Army investigating itself is not a such a great idea

is it?