Students at Calif. College ban Pledge of Allegiance

[deadparrot]

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - Student leaders at a California college have touched off a furor by banning the Pledge of Allegiance at their meetings, saying they see no reason to publicly swear loyalty to God and the U.S. government.

The move by Orange Coast College student trustees, the latest clash over patriotism and religion in American schools, has infuriated some of their classmates -- prompting one young woman to loudly recite the pledge in front of the board on Wednesday night in defiance of the rule.

"America is the one thing I'm passionate about and I can't let them take that away from me," 18-year-old political science major Christine Zoldos told Reuters.

"The fact that they have enough power to ban one of the most valued traditions in America is just horrible," Zoldos said, adding she would attend every board meeting to salute the flag.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061110/us_nm/life_pledge_dc

[IndianaGreen]

1. The phrase "Under God" was not part of the original Pledge of Allegiance

It was put there by a rightwing Republican controlled Congress in 1954. It should be stripped out of the Pledge, restoring the original version which was intended to united us, not divide us as the stupid "Under God" has done.

[Erika]

3. Uh, 1954

[IndianaGreen]

4. It was a typo

"Under God" was put there during the McCarthy era.

[saigon68]

37. Christine Zoldos should SLINK down and JOIN THE ARMY

That way she could fulfill all her fantasies

Maybe she could even get to SHOOT AT a few ISLAMICS

LOL

[KansDem]

38. The Pledge has existed longer without "under God" than with it...

Francis Bellamy (1855 - 1931), a Baptist minister, wrote the original Pledge in August 1892. He was a Christian Socialist. In his Pledge, he is expressing the ideas of his first cousin, Edward Bellamy, author of the American socialist utopian novels, Looking Backward (1888) and Equality (1897).

--------
His original Pledge read as follows: 'I pledge allegiance to my Flag and (to*) the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.' He considered placing the word, 'equality,' in his Pledge, but knew that the state superintendents of education on his committee were against equality for women and African Americans. < * 'to' added in October, 1892. >

--------
In 1954, Congress after a campaign by the Knights of Columbus, added the words, 'under God,' to the Pledge. The Pledge was now both a patriotic oath and a public prayer.

http://history.vineyard.net/pledge.htm


From 1892 to 1954--without "under God" for 62 years
From 1954 to now--with "under God" for 52 years

[Auggie]

42. Robin Williams has suggested, "one nation, under Canada..."

Gets my vote

[melnjones]

48. LOLOL

I love that man.

[Tight_rope]

69. I totally agree! Leave God outta this mess!

[susanna]

79. You are correct.

...I actually have a Citizenship textbook from 1940-something. The pledge is in there, sans "Under God." Whenever I show it to people, in the original book, they just look at me blankly. It's actually interesting to see the reactions of people to the original pledge before governmental interference.

I especially love the part where I tell them that the pledge was written by a known Socialist of the time (or so the historians say).

On edit: subject correction

[Erika]

2. Hitler was fantastic in making students swear allegiance

to God and government. Maybe we are finally waking up.

[w4rma]

16. I want Americans to be loyal to our nation. The pledge is allegance to our nation.

Not any current government.

Many of the problems we have now are because Americans in power have *not* been loyal to our nation.

[Chulanowa]

22. Once should be enough.

And why at a school? Honestly, growing up, i had no idea why we went through the morning rinse and repeat of standing up, putting out hands on out chest, and saying the same thing over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over again.

Once you repeat something for the majority of the days in your live between ages seven and 19, it gets pretty meaningless. Say "milk" a few dozen times and see if the word makes more or less sense, for just a small example.

Besides, if you're born here, you're alreagy a member of hte club. Why swear alleigance?

It's a useless and rote ritual that does nothing but waste class time and erode the nature of the pledge in the first place.

[pokercat999]

24. You forgot the

:sarcasm: smilie

[IndianaGreen]

35. Then restore the original version of the Pledge

the one written by a socialist which did not include the "Under God" phrase, imposed by a Congress during the McCarthy era.

As to loyalty, the only loyalty is to the Constitution and the Republic, both of which have been placed in peril by the "Jesus Camp" Christiano-fascists that have been running this country.

[Solon]

59. Nationalism shouldn't be encouraged, also its a pledge to a piece of cloth. n/t

[roody]

I am willing to pledge allegiance to the constitution

of the US. I am not willing to pledge allegiance to the flag. And I do not believe in God. I would consider pledging allegiance to an Earth flag. I teach first grade and I enjoy modeling freedom to my school once a week at flag assembly by remaining silent, arms at my side.

[Tyo]

67. Saying the Pledge doesn't make you loyal

You're either loyal or you aren't and mouthing some formula at public gatherings isn't going to change that one way or the other. I thought it was silly when we said it in school and I think it's silly now. I don't need to remind myself that I'm an American.

That being said, we are probably stuck with it but the God part at least has got to go. You want God, go quietly into your room and pray like Jesus told you to.

[pooja]

5. My feelings on the pledge...

Its the first place we all learned about life and liberty and the pursuit of happiness.. it is the first idea that we are in a country that is special and has hopes and dreams.. take out the God part (it wasn't there originaly anyway)....But don't take the idea of America away.

[pokercat999]

25. Why not recite the Bill of Rights, maybe one bill each day?

Then the Preamble and a couple of lines from the Constitution each day?

[proud2BlibKansan]

60. Now if we had just let the neocons take those away,

the kids wouldn't need to learn them. :)

[pooja]

77. I understand your thoughts... but I'm thinking 5yrs old level...

Its the first place you really learn it and raise the flag and understand that you are part of something bigger than your mom and dad and small community.

[uppityperson]

6. Good job students. 1 more bit from article

They are not taking America away from anyone you silly politcal science major. I hope you listen and learn to what they can teach you at this college. You attend board meetings to salute the flag? Um, did you know you could do this on your own anyways?

1 more clip from article:
"Bell said the ban largely came about because the trustees didn't want to publicly vow loyalty to the American government before their meetings. "Loyalty ought to be something the government earns through performance, not through reciting a pledge," he said."

[LibDemAlways]

7. I seriously doubt that anyone would stop someone who

was hell bent on saluting the flag from doing so. I understand where the student trustees are coming from, but I also understand that not formally reciting the salute is a move that some will find offensive. Why not just announce that anyone wishing to salute the flag can do so on their own before the meeting officially begins?

I had a rather interesting experience along these lines recently. I was meeting with one of my daughter's middle school teachers one morning at the beginning of the school day, which happens to be the teacher's free period. We were in her classroom in the middle of our discussion when the morning announcements came over the PA in the background followed by the Pledge of Allegience. She jumped to her feet to salute the flag and explained that she looks forward to saluting the flag each morning - even though she's by herself in an empty classroom. Not something I'd worry about, but to each his/her own.

[pokercat999]

26. I used to work for Midas International Corporation (last year)

We had a prayer meeting before just about any function. Of course we were not required to attend. How do you think I felt as the only holdout and more importantly how do you think my supervisors felt about my not attending? I knew where my career was headed with that company.

[LibDemAlways]

33. I know how you feel. I volunteer at the student window

at the same school on Monday mornings. When it's time for the flag salute every person in the office jumps up and salutes while I keep writing passes for kids who are tardy. I've been asked what my "problem" is with the pledge, and I tell them "I have nothing against you saying it." So far that shuts them up.

Optional prayer in a company where a person is being paid to do the job is something else, though. That sounds coersive and grounds for a lawsuit for someone who doesn't attend and ends up suspiciously let go.

[pokercat999]

81. I wasn't let go......I got a better offer. But you're correct if

I had been let go I would have been in a lawyers office faster than a repug congressmen in a little boys drawers.

[David__77]

8. They didn't "ban" it: they simply won't formally recite it.

Ms. Zoldos is a weirdo. But entitled to her public speech.

[dweller]

10. interesting isn't it?

the first thing i suspected in this article is that the pledge would be 'banned'. I suspect it would no longer be 'required'.

big difference perhaps.
dp

[treestar]

39. "not required" equals "banned" to Christian RWers

This is how they claim they are "persecuted" when their religion is not the state religion. The biggest perversion of words I've ever seen.

[Guaranteed]

21. Was wondering about that- if they did BAN it, that would be bad.

Somehow, I'm guessing that that isn't what happened here, though.

[Igel]

53. I'd actually like more info.

"The move by Orange Coast College student trustees, the latest clash over patriotism and religion in American schools, has infuriated some of their classmates -- prompting one young woman to loudly recite the pledge in front of the board on Wednesday night in defiance of the rule" seems to imply that it's a ban, a "shall not".

Had it been "there's no requirement" then she would have just looked silly. Not looked silly and be "in defiance of the rule." Then again, there's no guarantee that the reporter's not echoing her language and her bias (likewise, there's no guarantee that they aren't reporting it properly).

[Charlie Brown]

9. I also love America

and I think loyalty oaths are extremley un-American. Always have been.

No one is stopping the students from saying the pledge if that's what they want, it's just not part of the college's program.

[immoderate]

14. Absolutely agree about loyalty oaths.

The whole idea is creepy.

I'm surprised that a college group would say it in the first place. I was on our Student Council, and we didn't have any more ceremony than the president calling the meeting to order. He didn't even smack the gavel.

America is anything but the pledge.


--IMM

[pansypoo53219]

11. this seems so retarded

i don't think i 'had to' do the stupid pledge since the 2nd grade. did this shit start in the 90's or something? the pledge past HS?!?

[phusion]

54. My thoughts exactly...

Why the hell were college-aged adults reciting the "pledge of allegiance" at school?

[RandomKoolzip]

12. Boy, thank goodness they're addressing the important stuff.

:eyes:

[LostinVA]

31. They are addressing the important stuff n/t

[babylonsister]

13. It's not only the pledge but the US Gov't they're reacting to. HAven't

we all?

[w4rma]

15. Just lose the 1954 "under God" addendum. Don't go crazy and throw the baby out with the bathwater.nt

[Megahurtz]

65. And replace "Republic" with "Democracy".

:)

[Xenotime]

70. Exactly. I can't stand that word. WTF is the difference anyway.

[sakabatou]

17. I always leave out, "under God."

[Hepburn]

23. Me, too.

I NEVER put that in the pledge.

[kineneb]

43. same here

I am a Rotarian, and in the US, they always insist on reciting the Pledge and having a prayer to open the meeting. At the meetings I attended in Belgium, the president simply rang their Rotary bell to start the meeting. I leave out the "under God" part and stand with my hand in my pockets for the prayer (silently chanting "Na mo Amida Buddha" to myself:) ).

[roody]

62. Under dog works well, but only if your dog is the boss.

[some guy]

18. I Pledge Allegiance

to the flag Constitution, and to the Republic for which it stands was created, One Nation, Under God, Indivisble, with Liberty and Justice For ALL.

:hi:

:D

[ozone_man]

46. That's more like it.

Time to take God and the flag out of this McCarthy era fascist version.

[heliarc]

19. My big problem is this allegiance to a flag thing...

Why allegiance to the flag? It just seems stupid and fascist to me. Then the God stuff is an added insult, but primarily my problem is with the flag-waving bull.

[truthisfreedom]

20. flag, schmag.

[tanyev]

27. Say, why does "pledging allegiance" have to be a corporate activity?

If Ms. Zoldos is so passionate about America, why can't she keep a flag in the corner of her room and recite the Pledge by herself when she gets up and before she goes to bed? Seems like the perceived value is not so much in the pledging itself, but in being observed pledging.

Just like self-righteous, hypocritical praying.

[Canuck Exile]

28. Students will be students....

Here we are again... giving credence to this type
of non-issue...

The rightwing noise machine just LOVES this type of
crap, we shouldn't be helping them..

It's just students being students...

:mad: Canuck Exile

[LostinVA]

32. I think it's far from being a non-issue...

[Freedom_from_Chains]

29. And so the party begins

Personally I have never been a real big fan of the pledge and not just because of the "under god" phrase but I find having to pledge allegiance to the government to have just a little too much of a Stalinist tone for me. It is passed off as patriotism but it can be turned into more of a nationalism which gives rise to groups like the third reich.

[LostinVA]

30. Good -- it's a bit too icky nationalistic for me

And has been since I was a kid and watched documentaries of the Nazis in school. I quit saying the Pledge in HS.

[BuddhaGirl]

34. Wow! my alma mater!

and in Orange County, no less :wow:

[shanti]

45. really?

i attended, but did not graduate from coast. when were you there?

[BuddhaGirl]

47. Off and on, I attended 1981-1991 and got my AA in 1990

took me long enough! LOL

When did you attend?

[shanti]

76. september 1973

i was 18 and had just met my first (soon to be) husband. i attended for one month and dropped out :(. biggest mistake of my life...but i made that up by getting a divorce 10 years later and graduating with my BA later ;)

coast was a great school - it had lots of surfers and hippies and such back then...:)

[slackmaster]

36. Wow, a bunch of free speech advocates, aren't they?

Requiring someone to recite it is obviously wrong, but so is prohibiting it.

[iverglas]

49. gee, if only someone had done that

Requiring someone to recite it is obviously wrong, but so is prohibiting it.

I guess it would be. I mean, if who and what they were prohibiting WASN'T themselves, from reciting something at their own bloody meetings. Sheesh. Believe every headline you read from yahoonews, do you? Even the ones that don't make a stitch of sense -- like this one?

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/nation/4325292.html

Calif. college ends Pledge of Allegiance

COSTA MESA, Calif. — Student leaders at a community college voted to drop the Pledge of Allegiance after a tense meeting in which one flag-waving pledge supporter berated them as anti-American radicals.

Orange Coast College's student trustees voted Wednesday not to recognize the pledge, with three of the five board members saying it should be dropped from their meetings.

If I decide that Christopher Robin will not be recited at my dinner table when I have friends over, have I banned Christopher Robin?

I just shake my head. The idea that anyone would even think of reciting a pledge of allegiance at a student council meeting boggles the mind almost beyond belief. The idea that ending the practice would earn screeching headlines approaches infinity on the scale of disbelief.


Wow, a bunch of free speech advocates, aren't they?

Gosh. I can only imagine how upset you'll be when the local Baptist church BANS the reading of the Koran during services ...

[rinsd]

71. Its a bunch of Che wannabes

who come off as some caricature thought up by rightwingers.

"The move was lead by three recently elected student trustees, who campaigned for office wearing revolutionary-style berets and said they do not believe in publicly swearing an oath to the American flag and government at their school. One student trustee voted against the measure, which does not apply to other student groups or campus meetings.

"That ('under God') part is sort of offensive to me," student trustee Jason Bell, who proposed the ban, told Reuters. "I am an atheist and a socialist, and if you know your history, you know that 'under God' was inserted during the McCarthy era and was directly designed to destroy my ideology."

[ileus]

40. Who cares anymore??? we won!

[underpants]

64. Exactly this is "Fox & Friends" level stuff

I think the same thing about the pledge that I did when I was 8 years old-it seems like a huge waste of time.

[AliceWonderland]

41. Reciting pledges is creepy

Especially the stand-and-recite-as-rote method. It feels automated, without self-reflection... something one is required to rattle off to prove one is a good citizen.

If students are going to doing that, I agree with the poster above who said that the Bill of Rights is a much better idea. Take an amendment a day, something along those lines.

Agreed that it's interesting how "not required" becomes "banned."

[shanti]

44. coast!

my very first college experience in 1973:) this is surprising in very publican OC.

[DrBKB911]

50. Let's see how it is...

when the Muslims take over and you are FORCED to pray in the town square on mats whether you like it or not.

[Solon]

58. Enjoy your short stay.

:hi:

[roody]

63. The bowing they do is a refreshing body stretch

and good for your back. I guess it will be okay.

[Tyo]

68. This wouldn't take the place of a coffee break would it?

And when is this takeover scheduled to occur? I'll need a prayer rug and I'll want to shop for one early while the selection is still good.

[PermanentRevolution]

82. My town doesn't have a square...

Can we do it at the college quad instead?

[Odin2005]

51. I think it only should be recited on certain occasions.

I love reminding Freepers that it was written by a socialist, it drives them bonkers because they think us socialists hate America by definition.

[rinsd]

52. LOL Che wannabes taking on the "important" issues of the day!

Christ another skirmish in the nonsensical culture war.

[phusion]

55. Good for them...

Why should people have to "pledge allegiance" to anything? To me, the "pledge" has always reeked of blind, foolish, and unnecessary nationalism. We should be taught to think outside of "the box" and abandon the pledge altogether.

[shrike]

56. I'd rather get rid of the stupid thing

than fight any longer about the words, "Under God."

So much time and money has been spent by both sides, and NEITHER will ever get up. So why don't we just dump the thing? Everyone recites it mechanically -- I go to a lot of public meetings -- and I HATED doing it in school. Means absolutely nothing to the kids. Why not just start the day out with a civics lesson? Or a lesson in government -- it'd be much more useful in the long run.

[shrike]

57. I'd rather get rid of the stupid thing

than fight any longer about the words, "Under God."

So much time and money has been spent by both sides, and NEITHER will ever get up. So why don't we just dump the thing? Everyone recites it mechanically -- I go to a lot of public meetings -- and I HATED doing it in school. Means absolutely nothing to the kids. Why not just start the day out with a civics lesson? Or a lesson in government -- it'd be much more useful in the long run.

[Megahurtz]

61. I don't like to be forced to

say the Pledge of Allegiance when I don't believe in it. Because I would be lying if I did.

[MindPilot]

66. When I see the color guard at a football game or something

My eyes well up and I get a lump in my throat. I feel awe at what the first dads invented and pride at what subsequent generations have done with it.

I don't need to recite some poem, pledge or prayer. Quiet reverence is enough, thank you.

[Xenotime]

72. This country should be pledging to us. Not us to them.

[Zomby Woof]

73. I pledge allegiance

I pledge allegiance to and wrap myself in the flag of the United States Against Anything Un-American and to the Republicans for which it stands, two nations, under Jesus, rich against poor, with curtailed liberty and justice for all except blacks, homosexuals, women who want abortions, Communists, welfare queens, treehuggers, feminazis, illegal immigrants, children of illegal immigrants, and you if you don't watch your step.

-- Matt Groening "Life In Hell", 1994

[bloom]

74. good for them

I'm sick of it too.

[rug]

75. What is the purpose of the Pledge of Allegiance at a meeting to plan Homecoming?

[Vidar]

78. Good riddance.

[krispos42]

80. How about some more pledges to say?

PLEDGE TO THE CHRISTIAN FLAG

I pledge allegiance to the Christian Flag and to the Savior for whose Kingdom it stands. One Savior, crucified, risen, and coming again with life and liberty to all who believe.

PLEDGE TO THE BIBLE

I pledge allegiance to the Bible, God's Holy Word, I will make it a lamp unto my feet and a light unto my path and will hide its words in my heart that I might not sin against God.



Yeah, just keep on saluting that American flag...

[jpwhite]

83. I felt weird having to say it as a kid.

I'm 33 years old, and I grew up in upstate New York. I felt weird saying the pledge of allegiance as a kid. Why should anyone have to say this and feel like they are forced to? What I would suggest is that if a president of a group wants to do this, then they should say, "We are going to say the pledge of allegiance and if you want to join in you may. If you don't want to, you don't have to." I think this is the way to handle something like this. Don't just say, "We're going to say the pledge before we start this meeting," because then it makes it seem like you have to do it.

James
[e-mail]

[LiberalFighter]

84. Sidenote... she is a College Republican -- Sidenote about event

By the time I encountered Cory Bray, a towering senior from the University of Pennsylvania's Wharton School of Business, the beer was flowing freely. "The people opposed to the war aren't putting their asses on the line," Bray boomed from beside the bar. Then why isn't he putting his ass on the line? "I'm not putting my ass on the line because I had the opportunity to go to the number-one business school in the country," he declared, his voice rising in defensive anger, "and I wasn't going to pass that up."

This event was College Republican National Convention held in 2005 to elect their next chair.
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20050711/blumenthal

My rebuttal to Cory Bray would be... So you are more important than your country.