Widows Sue Over Wicca Symbol, Headstones (I see congressional hearings

[wakeme2008]

:)

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Wiccan-Soldier.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

November 13, 2006
Widows Sue Over Wicca Symbol, Headstones
By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

Filed at 1:12 p.m. ET

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The widows of two combat veterans sued the government Monday for not allowing Wiccan symbols on their husbands' military headstones.

The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs allows military families to choose any of 38 authorized headstone images. The list includes commonly recognized symbols for Christianity, Buddhism, Islam and Judaism, as well as those for smaller religions such as Sufism Reoriented, Eckiankar and the Japanese faith Seicho-No-Ie.

The Wiccan pentacle, a five-pointed star surrounded by a circle, is not on the list, an omission that the widows say is unconstitutional.

..more at link..

[Q3JR4]

1. Rock on!

Fundies (why is it when I think of Christian folk I always associate it with these people?) like to push for religious freedom. Let's see where they stand on THIS issue. After all, if you allow one religion, you have to allow them all.

[Chulanowa]

12. During my lurk time at right-wing boards, this came up

and the universal reply among fundies was that they would rather there be no religious symbolism than allow a Wiccan symbol.

[roody]

23. Allright! Room for agreement. NO symbols.

[Q3JR4]

2. Oh yeah,

K&R.

:)

[twilight_sailing]

3. They've had plenty of time to get up to speed on this.

Way back when, must have been 1977, we had a Wiccan in my unit. There was even a little article about him in the Stars and Stripes.

Come on, Veterans Affairs, this is America, remember, freedom of religion and all that? Sheesh.

[phusion]

4. Why not?

Good for them...

[JoFerret]

20. Yep. Until we can get everyone

out of thr thrall of religiosity then we should not discriminate.

[niyad]

5. the UCMJ recognizes wicca, so what the HELL is wrong with VA?

[JoDog]

7. Something to do with the rules

From what I understand, the VA's "problem" is rooted in the procedure on how a religious symbol gets on the tombstone list.

To get the symbol approved, the families must submit:
1. A letter from the ?recognized central head or primary contact person? for the religious organization, certifying that:

- The emblem is ?currently widely used and recognized as the symbol of the organization or its belief system.?

- The organization supports the addition of the emblem to the approved list.

- The organization ?does not promote activity that is illegal or contrary to public policy.?

2. A written description of:

- How the organization?s belief system ?is comprehensive in nature and addresses fundamental and ultimate questions.?

3. ?Information about the size and organizational structure of the organization, including total number of members and the location of the congregations.?

(copied from http://www.religionnewsblog.com/13325/witches-fight-for-symbols-on-gravestones)

This can pose some problems for us Wiccans. On the first requirement, well, there is no recognized central head or contact person for Wicca. It is very decenralized, and has no one prevailing authority. The elder that is recognized as a leader in one group could be ignored in another.

On the second point, while there are a few points of basic belief that most Wiccans embrace, the beliefs and practices of the different branches vary widely. So it can be hard to pin down a description that will satisfy this requirement.

On the third, many Wiccans and pagans keep their religion a secret, or at least very quiet, due to discrimination (and yes, it does happen. a lot.) Therefore, it is next to impossible to get even a good estimate of how many Wiccans are out there, and how many covens (congregations) are out there.

So under the VA's rules, it's going to be hard for Wiccans to get the pentacle approved for gravestones. Our best bet is that the VA revise the rules (and soon) or that they agree to give the Wiccans waivers on the rules on a case-by-case basis.

I hope this gets taken care of soon. The contrabutions of these warriors have been conveinently ignored for too long.

[enlightenment]

15. Wow. That is such BS.

Among those approved symbols are an "A" for atheist and a stylized human for humanism -- I don't believe either one of those could have passed either 1. or 2. of those rules.

This shite needs to stop.

[IndianaGreen]

17. Under that criteria, Christianity flunks big time

belief system ?is comprehensive in nature and addresses fundamental and ultimate questions.

Christianity fails in all accounts!

[heliarc]

27. Which many sided dice do you roll ....

to determine the strength of "these warriors"

Sorry... covens? That's just as silly as anything in the bible. Even so, I say you get to put whatever symbol you want on your tombstone if you sacrificed for the good of the country. If you died while torching a town full of civilians on the other hand your gravestone should have a big swastika on it so no one mistakes you for who you really are. _sarcasm_

[TechBear_Seattle]

6. Wasn't this settled recently?

There was another widow in the same situation, who won a court ruling ordering that her wishes be enacted. Why do others have to file suit when it should be settled?

[JoDog]

8. Settled in Nevada only, I think

I think the family of a soldier got the state of Nevada to put the pentacle on the state's soliders' memorial. I believe the current push is to get it recognized nationally for tombstones in national cemetaries like Arlington.

[Sgent]

26. Not really

The State of Nevada agreed to erect a monument (at the state's cost) in a State Veteran's Cemetery. This settlement didn't fix the problem that the federal government is supposed to pay for it -- and that this only affected this particular person (didn't create precedent).

[Triana]

9. Good for them! That symbol ought to be allowed...

...along with the others. No reason it shouldn't.

[heliarc]

28. My religious beliefs

require a pyramid be build in my honor.... oh... and a sarcophagus.

Noodly Noodly Noodly

[hippiechick]

10. I thought this was settled several months back already ?

Must research. Will update later ... :hi:

[LilyLibber]

11. Good for them!

They should definitely have that symbol.

[roguevalley]

13. its unbelievable that this is still an issue. have you seen the religions

they do allow? I wasn't aware of many of them. Its a great big world we live in. All are welcome. I hope.

[TroglodyteScholar]

14. Approved list???

Our war dead should be allowed to put a great big cock & balls on their tombstones if they so desire.

WTF country IS this?

[IndianaGreen]

16. The families should be able to put whatever they want on a headstone

Who the hell approved this list, and why?

[lisby]

18. It's because to the Fundies, Wicca = Satanism

They just *won't* get beyond this totally bassackward idea. They cling to it because it's rooted in their history. Christians have feared "witches" for a thousand years. I think it rankles them, as well, that a new *pagan* religion has made such inroads into Western Christianity. There are a lot of neopagans out there. I'm one of them. I am aware of thousands more. None of us worship Satan. None of us actually believe in Satan. It' funny, when you look at a Fundie site on Wiccans, they always say the Wiccan credo is "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the law"--which has its roots in Alistair Crowley and his whacked-out escapades. But the real credo is "Harm none." And that is something the Fundies will never be able to get their heads around. No Satan, no hurting other people...gosh, it would mean they'd have to stop judging and hating something for a change.


:evilgrin:

[Bridget Burke]

24. Aleister Crowley wasn't a Satanist, either.

His precepts were "Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law" & "Love is the law, love under will."

Crowley's "True Will" was somewhat deeper than "anything you want."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portal:Thelema

[lisby]

25. Yeah, I know that, but the Fundies don't.

They see Crowley as a Satanist. Period. Any discussions of the complexities of Thelema is waaaaay lost on them. All they see is "Do as thou wilt is the whole of the law." To them, that means "Have Satan; Let's Party." And since they can't tell the difference between Wicca and Satanism anymore than Wicca and Thelema....

And Crowley was a nutter most of the time, you have to admit.

:evilgrin:


Lisby

[Crayson]

19. One's holy symbol is the others symbol for satan...

Stupid religions... each one worse then the other...

Why don't you just put up a photo of the poor dead guy, so everybody can look at it and remember him or ask themselves who he was, what his dreams and motivations were.

That's why I like the Japanese way... they don't honor any gods, but their ancestors who brought them up.

[LibertyLover]

21. CNN.com has the same story plus a poll

as to whether or not the pentacle should be allowed. At this point about 76% of the respondents say yes. Woo hoo!!

[savemefromdumbya]

22. Wicca is misunderstood by many