UCLA student stunned by Taser plans suit

[athena]

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/california/la-me-ucla17nov17,1,4599352.story?coll=la-headlines-pe-california

The UCLA student stunned with a Taser by a campus police officer has hired a high-profile civil rights lawyer who plans to file a brutality lawsuit.

The videotaped incident, which occurred after the student refused requests to show his ID card to campus officers, triggered widespread debate on and off campus Thursday about whether use of the Taser was warranted. It was the third in a recent series of local incidents captured on video that raise questions about arrest tactics.

Attorney Stephen Yagman said he plans to file a federal civil rights lawsuit accusing the UCLA police of "brutal excessive force," as well as false arrest. The lawyer also provided the first public account of the Tuesday night incident at UCLA's Powell Library from the student, Mostafa Tabatabainejad, a 23-year-old senior.

He said that Tabatabainejad, when asked for his ID after 11 p.m. Tuesday, declined because he thought he was being singled out because of his Middle Eastern appearance. Yagman said Tabatabainejad is of Iranian descent but is a U.S.-born resident of Los Angeles.

[ixion]

1. good. I hope he sues their pants right off

so-called 'peace' officers should not be allowed to brutalize civillians, just 'cause they can. :grr:

[Bonobo]

2. I like this part: "Taser Award"!!

The incident follows the recent announcement that four of the campus police department's nearly 60 full-time sworn officers had won so-called Taser Awards granted by the manufacturer of the device to "law enforcement officers who save a life in the line of duty through extraordinary use of the Taser." The award stemmed from an incident in which officers subdued a patient who allegedly threatened staff at the campus' Neuropsychiatric Hospital with metal scissors.

[sam sarrha]

3. they were COMPETING for a Tasar Award.!!!!!!!! a lapel Pin.!!

the recent deaths from the use of tasars is overshadowed by the Tobacco Clause... which is ..if tobacco can legally kill nearly half a Million annually.. a tasar death will go un-noticed, therefore Legal to kill

[midnight]

10. That kind of thinking is ridiculous.

[athena]

8. No kidding.

Taser, the company, wants to pretend that tasering a mental patient who is threatening people with a pair of scissors is saving lives. I haven't heard of too many people who were killed with scissors. Furthermore, I believe (or would like to believe) that the staff at mental hospitals are trained to handle such situations without resorting to violence.

Removing a tumor, saving someone from drowning, removing someone from a burning building, performing CPR -- those are acts that save lives. The stupid Taser award is an insult to real heroes.

[sam sarrha]

64. Tasars have killed a lot of people..

[mcg]

182. Amnesty report slams Taser, cites 103 related deaths

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-04-01-taser-report_x.htm?csp=34

Posted 4/1/2005 7:41 AM

Amnesty report slams Taser, cites 103 related deaths
PHOENIX (AP) — There were 103 Taser stun gun-related deaths in the United States and Canada between June 2001 and March 2005, according to an Amnesty International report released Friday.

In the first three months of this year, there were 13 Taser-related deaths — compared with six during the same period last year, the report said.

The stun guns have been touted as less lethal than other ways of subduing combative people in high-risk situations, but Tasers have come under increasing scrutiny as a number of deaths have been blamed, at least partially, on the devices.

[OhioChick]

4. I saw this on Keith last night.

They were tasering the hell out of that kid.

[athena]

5. The full video is posted in the video forum, but it's very disturbing. (n.t.)

[OhioChick]

11. The little that I saw

was very bothersome. Wasn't the kid trying to tell them that he had a medical condition, as well?

[pnwmom]

120. And his attorney verified that he has a medical condition.

[EFerrari]

6. If I were a young man who looked Middle Eastern

which when you think about it, is most of humanity, I'd be very worried about these armed @ssholes. They have every reason in the world to be concerned -- there have already been round ups, renditions and illegal detentions.

The real terrorists are all old white guys.



This whole culture has become delusional.

[petgoat]

111. "The real terrorists are all old white guys."

So impeach 'em!

[Demit]

7. The second tasering was because he wouldn't (couldn't?) stand up.

The video was sickening. Even though you couldn't see much, just listening was awful.

Just think if the police had had these things in the civil rights movement days. When protesters went limp in a show of civil disobedience. Then the police just dragged them away. Today they would taser the shit out of them. Maybe professional police would be a little more professional. These were campus police. But it was an outrageous abuse of authority. Truly chilling. At the very least these sadistic bastards should be fired, and UCLA should clean up its act vis-a-vis campus police behavior.

[LifeDuringWartime]

32. second, third, fourth, and fifth!

:puke:

[Occulus]

43. I have never, not once, been helped by "professional" police when I needed the help

I once had proof in writing that someone I knew had stolen several hundred dollars' worth of electronics (well over a dozen items) from me. I filed a report, and when I spoke to the detective about the worth of the items, without ever having seen them, he said, "Oh, I don't think they're worth that much." I never heard another word; the police let the guy get away with it.

They even had his address and phone number.

Another time, I was jogging, and a cop interrogated me on the street for no particular reason. He said as much. This was ten years ago, and I can't imagine it's gotten any better.

A few years ago, seven badged thugs stormed my apartment for- get this- a noise complaint. They all proceeded to perform a very complete, warrantless search. A few of them were actually wearing a trainee badge.

No, I don't and won't trust police to help me. Just as I am gay and thus watch out for people wearing a cross because they might beat me up or try to kill me, so too do I avoid people wearing badges as much as possible- and for many of the same disgusting reasons. In fact, it's for some of the exact same reasons.

Every police department in the country ought to be ultimately held accountable to a citizen review board with power to terminate employment with prejudice. I use that word intending its legal meaning: once fired by such a board, they should not be able to get a job as a cop anywhere in their state.

It's not as harsh as a cop tasering someone to death without trial.

The only way we can bring these assholes under control is to hold them accountable, and for them to know that once they are held accountable there is nothing- nothing at all- anyone can do to help them get their job back. We need to start putting our boots to their necks, in a manner of speaking.

[mainegreen]

9. As part of training officers should have to be punched in the face and tasered five times.

Maybe then they wont be so taser happy.

[mitchleary]

12. UH, you familiar with police training?

If they had real police training, they were. My friend, who went through the academies in AZ and IL, was tasered and pepper sprayed numerous times. He had to be to qualify on them. He had to feel how they worked. At least once was a full take down and hold down with a taser.

Not trying to defend the cops, but when somone does not have an ID and is asked to leave, he should just leave, not hang around for another 10 mintues.

[mainegreen]

14. Well, that's good to know.

I wonder if the campus patrol experienced that though?
I just can't rationalize how these people can think that thuggery and violence are the answer to not showing id and not behaving in a violent, aggressive or intimidating way? It just makes me so angry I can barely think straight. I understand not all police are like that, and that in fact most are great people just like my neighbor is. But it still doesn't make me any less mad.

:sigh:

I guess it's just part of the human condition.

[Demit]

15. He should just leave or he should be tased? Then tased again on the ground?

That's what you are implying. You certainly are trying to defend the cops. That if somebody sitting at a computer in a library does not comply SOON enough, it is appropriate behavior to shoot electrical current into his body. Shame.

[mitchleary]

16. What

would be a reasonable amount of time for you after he is asked to leave? Maybe post it on the library entrance? With campus crime what it is, people should carry ID.
It is not like they said, "leave", waited three seconds, and then started tasering. I admit there are faults, but on both sides. Do not have an ID and are asked to leave? Then pack up your stuff and leave. Get your ID and come back. Keep in mind the video does not start with the kid being asked for ID, it starts with the cops using their tasers.

I am not defending all the cops' actions, and I would like to learn a little more, before condemning them.

[crim son]

17. Watch the video! You will see all you need to know.

This was an abuse of power. The young man was armed with nothing but his voice, and had no way to protest but by refusing to move. There is simply NO justification for tasering him and then tasering him again. Thank God somebody caught the event on video. I want to know when these bastard cops are in jail.

[mitchleary]

27. the video?

So what you are saying is if I walked up and punched you in the stomach, then my friend started taping and you were punching me in face, that would be ok. "Your honor clearly you can see by the video, he just punched me in the face."

I did see the video.
The video is occluded most of the time by other students. Did the cops use excessive force? probably. Does that absolve the student of any guilt? hardly. How hard is it to leave when the police ask you to for not having your ID?
So unless the video started with the cops asking him for an ID, you cannot tell what happened.

[mondo joe]

40. The student's "guilt" is immaterial to the tasering.

It can easily be argued he should have shown the ID as requested.

His failure to do so in NO WAY justifies the torture by te police that followed.

[crim son]

57. I submit that, because the student's "crime" was not having

his ID, then under no circumstance should the taser have been used. None. Therefore, I do not need to see anything more than what I saw on the video to determine whether the cops' actions were inappropriate. I honestly think you're way off on this one.

[we can do it]

85. There Were Witnesses To The Entire Episode

[pnwmom]

126. It's IRRELEVANT whether the student did or did not do something

and deserved to be arrested. But even the police report claims he did nothing more serious than not showing ID and not leaving immediately, followed by yelling about his rights and going limp when they grabbed him.

What is relevant is that after the first shock, when the student was down on the ground and immobilized, the police continued to shock him over and over, while demanding that he stand up -- even though he said "I can't," even though he said, "I'll leave," even though he said, "I'm not fighting." They kept demanding that he stand up even though each shock (designed to immobilize a violent offender by locking up the muscles) made it more and more difficult for him to do so. They kept shocking him even after he was handcuffed.

You try standing up when your legs have been shot with a Taser and your wrists are hand-cuffed.

What we ALL saw in the video was plain, simple, ordinary, garden variety EVIL. Open your eyes.

If we condone this sort of thing in full view of the public, on a student who is guilty at most of very minor transgressions -- then we share in the complicity for whatever is being done in dark little rooms to "suspected terrorists" under the Patriot Act. Just imagine. If they will torture a student with a Taser, just what are they doing in secret to other people in our name?

[we can do it]

84. Are You Certain That You ALWAYS Have An ID? You Never Forget It?

Besides that fact, an ID wasn't required to get in, only random checks after 11pm. This is a library, not a bar. He wasn't causing a disturbance or bothering anyone. He was sitting at a computer studying, how easy would it be to lose track of time? Possibly he finished what he was working on then left?

[pnwmom]

124. The fault is HEAVILY on the side of the campus cops.

The student delayed leaving for several minutes, then went limp when they grabbed him. (And he yelled loudly about his rights, which is not a crime.) That's all he did. There is no law that requires him to have an ID in the library and the library's own written policies say nothing about having an ID.

They tasered him repeatedly, even after he had fallen to the ground, and after they had hand-cuffed him, despite his telling them he had a medical condition (which was confirmed by his attorney).

And since they are employees of the State, they are the agents for and answerable to all the citizens of the State. It matters much more when they abuse their powers than when a single student gets out of line.

I condemn the University board that approved the disgusting Taser policy that specifically allows for shocking passive resistors (as well as dangerous animals.) Apparently this has been policy since 2004, although few people seemed to be aware of it.

[Quantess]

153. I agree with you.

[pnwmom]

122. And he was trying to finish a paper that was due the next day.

How many kids wouldn't have tried to stay long enough to finish it?

[mondo joe]

21. Was what he did commensurate with the tasing?

If not, then what he did is really not relevant.

[Pithlet]

26. Exactly.

It isn't relevant, and I don't know why some keep bringing it up, as if it somehow mitigates what the cops did.

[mitchleary]

30. If he

was asked to leave and refused to, how should he be treated. What if he resisted? ID is not just for him, but making sure he belongs there. I do not care who in the "h" he is. When i was in college and asked to produce id, I did, or I was asked to leave and went home and got it. I understood the college was providing a level of security for the student body by knowing who I was. I never used my race as an excuse and it is BS he did. What would have happened if he would have just left immediately and went and got his ID? Why was I never thrown to the ground and tasered? I realized being at the college unidentified was not my right, nor is it anyone else's.

[athena]

33. You are missing the point.

The question is not whether the student obeyed the cops' orders; it's whether the cops' brutality was justified.

Suppose a drunk driver crashes his car into a tree. A cop shows up and shoots the driver with his gun.
Your attitude is equivalent to saying, "Well, the driver shouldn't have been drunk."

That's what happened here. The student, for whatever reason, refused to show his ID. But he complied with orders by packing up and leaving, and he did not present any physical threat. The cop had no right to grab him and threaten him with a taser, let alone taser him repeatedly for not standing up despite being shocked into paralysis, let alone threaten other students with the taser.

You're going on and on about how the student should have obeyed orders. That is tantamount to saying that the police can beat, spray, taser, or shoot anyone, as they like, for disobeying any order.

As someone I esteem greatly has observed, the difference between a police state and a democracy is that in the former the police protect the state, whereas in the latter they protect the people. When the people of a country start being afraid of the police as opposed to depending on the police, that's when you know the country is turning into a police state.

[mitchleary]

58. Missing the point?

"The question is not whether the student obeyed the cops' orders; it's whether the cops' brutality was justified."

I said it was too much.

"Suppose a drunk driver crashes his car into a tree. A cop shows up and shoots the driver with his gun.
Your attitude is equivalent to saying, "Well, the driver shouldn't have been drunk.""

That is BS. Let's address the situation. If a drunk driver crashes a car and then refuses to exit the car and/or resists arrest, do you think he should be restrained(not showing ID, not leaving)? What if he tries to continue driving(ie staying there against orders)?

"That's what happened here. The student, for whatever reason, refused to show his ID. But he complied with orders by packing up and leaving, and he did not present any physical threat. The cop had no right to grab him and threaten him with a taser, let alone taser him repeatedly for not standing up despite being shocked into paralysis, let alone threaten other students with the taser."

So you were there and seen it all?
It is not his right to refuse to show his ID at the school. What if he was a felon looking to commit a crime. The school has the right to know who you are for the safety of the other students. What would you have done if you would have asked him to leave and he just sat there for ten minutes?

"You're going on and on about how the student should have obeyed orders. That is tantamount to saying that the police can beat, spray, taser, or shoot anyone, as they like, for disobeying any order."

Uh, no. If I am in my yard mowing my grass, I do not expect to be tasered. When i was in college, I knew I needed to carry my ID to prove i was a student. I do not know what kind of job you have but most places now require an id and you are not getting in without one. If they ask you for it, you better produce it or you will be escorted out one or another.
If I walk across the street to the college I live near and go into their librabry, should I be allowed to refuse to show ID and just remain there?

"As someone I esteem greatly has observed, the difference between a police state and a democracy is that in the former the police protect the state, whereas in the latter they protect the people. When the people of a country start being afraid of the police as opposed to depending on the police, that's when you know the country is turning into a police state."

I am not afraid of the police but when asked for an ID I usually do not chose that moment for a "peaceful protest".
I hardly think asking a student for an ID is tantamount to police state. He has a choice, follow the rules or leave. He is in a place where others' safety must be secured and part of that is knowing who each and every student is by the form of ID.
It was his choice to go to the library without the ID(maybe he forgot it)
It was his choice to refuse to show the ID(peaceful protest according to some)
It was his choice to stay there after he was told to leave.
He was willing to face the consequences.

So when you are pulled over do you accuse the officer of enforcing a police state when he asks for your license?
If you are buying beer do you accuse the store clerk of enforcing a police state when he asks for ID?

What do you think would happen in those situations if you refused and tried to just do it anyway? IE throw the money on the counter and try to walk out with the beer? Think the cops would be called?

[mondo joe]

83. There's nothing in the studen't behavior that justified the tasering.

No matter what he SHOULD HAVE or COULD HAVE done, his actions did not merit the response.

[pnwmom]

129. You "said it was too much."

So why do you keep arguing about whatever the student did beforehand?

The State of California doesn't employ that student. The State of California employs those campus policeman, and the State of California is responsible for their actions -- which, in their totality, FAR outweighed any mistake that that student made.

No, the video doesn't cover everything. But the police have already made statements about what led up to the Tasering. Even in the worst case scenario -- that the police statements and not the eyewitness statements were correct -- the student did nothing more harmful than not having an ID and not immediately leaving, followed by advocating for his rights.

The police are condemned, in my opinion, by their own statements and by the evidence on the video. And UCLA is also responsible because the University approved of a Taser policy that allows campus cops to use the Tasers on passive resistors (although it didn't appear to anticipate that the Taser would be used repeatedly under circumstances like these.)

[mondo joe]

42. How should he be treated? Easy:

He could be carried out, he could be arrested.

I have zero problem with the rule, or its enforcement. I have a major problem with campus police tasering a non violent person, and then repeatedly tasering the person while demanding he stand. That's just police abuse. It's torture.

What do you think of the offer telling students who asked for his badge number to go back to what they were doing or they'd be tasered too?

[mitchleary]

48. depends on if he was

resisting arrest and refused to move/leave.

I do not know how strong the kid is. What if the officers could not make him leave/arrest him?

I think it was wrong for the other sudents to be threatened if all they wanted were badge numbers. Again, were the cops busy taking out a suspect, was that the appropriate time to ask for the numbers?

No, asking for a badge number should not get you tasered.

[mondo joe]

50. Were the cops busy? Did you look at the video?

The remaining officer was just standing there. It would have been as easy to give his badge number than to threaten the students.

As to the student who WAS tasered, he was clearly not resisting arrest or fighting - he wasn't even standing.

There are plenty of ways to remove someone without repeatedly tasering him.

[Garbo 2004]

54. Thursday 9 student protestors disrupted Regents mtg and refused to leave at UCLA.

They were dragged out. None were tasered.

"When told they had to leave the room, the students sat down on the floor and continued chanting. In order to remove the students, UCPD officers handcuffed them and dragged them from the room."
http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38998

That's how it's done. Not yelling at them (when they're cuffed and being held by cops) to "stand up" and repeatedly tasering them when they don't. In the end, the cops in the library wound up dragging the student out. Which they could and should have done previously without all the tasering.

[mitchleary]

59. do you

know how strong the student was compared to the cops?

All hypotheticals unless you were the one removing him from the library.

Am I saying tasering the crap out of him was right? no.

It just seems as if no one wants to bear any responsility for his actions.

[NickB79]

70. From the video, he appears smaller than the cops

At best, he is the same size as ONE of the cops, but as you would see if you watched the video, there were two cops.

"All hypotheticals unless you were the one removing him from the library."

Hypothetical to the cops as well, as they DIDN'T try to remove him from the library through the appropriate route that they are trained to do, ie physical restraint, handcuffs, carry to the squad car or detention facility.

[mitchleary]

71. Size

Size does not equal strength. I know a dude who is 6'1 and 165 pounds. In clothes he looked like no big deal, but he has like no body fat, is an ex olympic athlete, and a man you would not want to tangle with.

Those cops looked pretty portly.

[piedmont]

81. There were FIVE of them...

and he was LIMP. They weren't asking him to stop using his incredibly muscular physique to fight. They were telling him to stand up.

[pnwmom]

138. How do you explain the fact that they carried him out easily

at the end?

Did using the Taser somehow make them much stronger, more manly men than they were at the start of the whole thing?

Come on, use your head. Did you even watch the video?

[Garbo 2004]

73. Did you see the full video tape? Did you see how many cops there were?

Did you see only two cops holding him by the arms? He was already handcuffed and on the ground and they were tasering him because he didn't stand up. They were telling him "Stand up or you'll be tased again."

The other cops were standing around. Two had him by the arms, that's all. He effectively was under their control and they still kept tasering him simply because he didn't stand up. All they had to do was drag him off, as they eventually did.

So you figure the other cops were just standing around throughout this event and letting only two cops handle him unassisted because in their judgment the student was such a handful that the two cops holding him were insufficient? That blows the hole in your argument right there. Multiple officers present, yet only two were used to hold him, one by each arm, and drag him out. And as they said, they were tasering him because he didn't stand up. They didn't need him to stand up to remove him from the premises.

Contrast that with the Regents' mtg...protestors refused to stand and were dragged off. No tasers used to try to force them to stand and walk.

[we can do it]

88. What Actions? Studying Too Late? Leaving the Library?

[mitchleary]

102. Have fun

next time a cop asks you for id telling him to f off and you are being profiled.

[pnwmom]

139. You are right only in the sense that I wouldn't want

my sons to take such a risk. Not with the (hopefully few) power-trippers that exist in any police department.

But you are wrong in that you have appeared, over and over, to be justifying police brutality on the basis that the student may have initially done something wrong.

Once the police have control over a subject -- which they obviously did in this case -- they are prohibited from beating them or otherwise inflicting pain on them. Remember the Constitution? Innocent until proven guilty? It isn't up to the police to be administering punishment to anybody.

[mcg]

183. A separation of powers issue, it's up to the judicial branch to decide punishment.

"Once the police have control over a subject -- which they obviously did in this case -- they are prohibited from beating them or otherwise inflicting pain on them. Remember the Constitution? Innocent until proven guilty? It isn't up to the police to be administering punishment to anybody."

Exactly, they are not to be judge, jury, and torturer, they are not part of the judicial system nor are they part of the prison system.

Some victims are not so lucky ...

Death by Taser: The Killer Alternative to Guns
http://www.alternet.org/rights/44455/?comments

[alcibiades_mystery]

115. Oh fucking stop it, man

You're making a fool of yourself. This is what your argument has come down to? Do you know how strong he was? Uh, stronger than all the cops? Come on, now.

I lived in New York most of my life, and was there for the whole Abner Louima episode. I knew plenty of guys who sided with the cops on that one. First they argued that the damage to Louima's colon came not from being brutalized by the police, but from rough gay sex. That was the first line of defense, and that collapsed. Then it was some other argument - the cops they had didn't do it, how could we know, etc., etc., etc. It was endless. Of course, most of that collapsed when Volpe pleaded guilty, and they had to admit, finally, that maybe - gasp - a cop could be wrong, a cop could abuse his power, shock of shocks, no fucking way, man!

That's you. Your increasingly silly arguments seek to absolve the cops in this, whatever happened. As each line of defense collapses, your argument becomes more and more tortured. But then, tortured is the right word here. How strong was he? I mean, really now.

[pnwmom]

135. You can easily see on the videotape that two police officers were

fully capable of grabbing him under the armpits and carrying him out -- once they had had their fun with the Tasers.

This isn't hypothetical -- it's right there on the video.

[pnwmom]

131. You can bet that those police were under strict instructions

not to Taser any more students! How frustrated they must have been . . . .

[screembloodymurder]

77. Bullshit!

My wife takes more abuse in her classroom every day. Because she's teaching special students there is no punishment but restraint. The teacher beside her had her finger snapped, hair pulled out, was kicked, and bitten. What did this guy do and what threat did he pose to four strong cops? He agreed to leave but asked the cop to take his hands off him.

[mitchleary]

104. How old are those students?

Are they mentally handicapped?

I would suspect a student at UCLA would have the cognizance to freaking leave when asked to. Geez, all he had to do was produce a freaking ID at a school he is allowed to go to. It is NOT his RIGHT to walk around a college campus unidentified. I hope his ass is expelled and gets to sit at home with not being admitted anywhere since he cannot follow the f'ing rules.

[Jim Sagle]

110. Right turn, Clyde. Straight to Freeperland.

[pnwmom]

132. Actually it IS his right. UCLA is a public university and there is

no policy that requires anyone on campus to carry an ID. Also, the library is open to the public. No student ID's are required, unless you want to check out a book.

[mondo joe]

137. My understanding is that after 11pm only students have access, which

would obviously require ID.

[pnwmom]

140. The interesting part

is that someone here posted the several pages that comprise official library policy, and there was nothing in those pages that referenced the need to have an ID after 11 or anytime.

Some people here are saying that there are signs around the library. I wonder what effect the signs have if the policy isn't part of their written regulations? I guess we'll find out.

[pnwmom]

142. Are you starting to wonder, as I am,

whether we're talking to some sort of troll here?

[Ms. Clio]

144. "It is NOT his RIGHT to walk around a college campus unidentified."

Have you ever even been to college? Used a university library? Do you have any idea how many people visit a university campus every day?

What a stupid fucking thing to say.

[pnwmom]

130. The tape demonstrates clearly that the police had NO TROUBLE

carrying the student out -- once they finally decided to do it. The kid wasn't particularly large, he wasn't fighting, and two cops easily hauled him out. There was no excuse for not doing that in the first place. That's what they would have done in 1960. Or in 1970. Or in 1980. That's what they would have done until they got their fun little Tasers to use.

[pnwmom]

127. You couldn't have been Tasered because the technology didn't exist.

This is clearly a case of "boys with toys." Before Tasers, what would the campus cops have done? They would have done what they finally did at the end, anyway. Two of them grabbed him under the arms and carried him out. Simple. That's what should have happened in the first place.

Don't you see? The technology available is what is driving the cops' behavior -- and even your reaction. The cops always had a simple choice that would have much more quickly gotten the job done. But they chose to use their weapons instead -- because they could. Because they had them in their hot little hands. (And maybe because they had recently been to a ceremony where other cops were awarded Taser Medals from the Taser Corp. for using them.)

And why do you say it is BS that this student felt picked on because of his appearance? The Daily Bruin says that it was a "random check." What makes you so sure it was random and not racial profiling? The student's attorney says that the white males in the area were NOT similarly asked to produce their ID. How do you know that this student didn't have good reason to feel that he was selected solely because of his Middle Eastern appearance?

And if the cops really cared about whether he was a student or not, why didn't they just look inside his backpack -- which was full of other things that would have identified him as a student?

I don't know where you went to college, but just so you know -- this library is open to the public. Only after 11 p.m. do they try to limit it to University people. But there is nothing in the written library policy that actually requires anyone, ever, to have an ID in order to use the facility.

[athena]

22. He has a Constitutional right to protest peacefully.

As the fourth and fifth paragraphs of the article explain, the student refused to show his ID because he felt he was being picked on because of his Middle-Eastern appearance. (Can you put yourself in his place and imagine what it must be like to be an American male of Middle-Eastern descent in post-9/11 America?) It's clear from the video that he was disturbed about his rights not being respected. He wasn't threatening anyone physically. Tasers were completely unnecessary and were used only to humiliate the student. It's not the job of the police to humiliate and punish. Their job was to protect the very person they were electrocuting.

Here is the wikipedia entry on civil disobedience:

In seeking an active form of civil disobedience, one may choose to deliberately break certain laws, such as by forming a peaceful blockade or occupying a facility illegally. Protesters practice this non-violent form of civil disorder with the expectation that they will be arrested, or even attacked or beaten by the authorities. Protesters often undergo training in advance on how to react to arrest or to attack, so that they will do so in a manner that quietly or limply resists without threatening the authorities.

[mitchleary]

29. That

seems to be strecthing the law a bit. So I can go to a bar or any other establishment and refuse to show ID based on peaceful protest? And they have to let me in? Why even have an id system at all? Would you say that to a police officer that pulled you over? Where does it end?

[Occulus]

46. You are intentionally refusing to get it n/t

[mitchleary]

60. How dare you

talk to me like I am some kind of simpleton?

Do I get there was excessive force used? Yes.

Do I also get that the student should have just shown his ID or just apologized and left? Yes.

Both are inexcseable and to deny any onus should be placed on the student is ridiculous.

Fine, Fire the officers, sue them. The backlash to the student should be suspension and/or expulsion. Then maybe when other schools see he refused to show he can be denied admission.

[Name removed]

78. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[we can do it]

90. The Officers Need To Be Fired and Never Be Placed In Any Position of Authority

again. The student did nothing that warrants any punishment.

You sir ought to try spell check.

[Bonescrat]

94. The officers need to be imprisoned... nt.

[we can do it]

97. Better Still

Welcome to DU

:toast:

[mitchleary]

101. is that all you got for me?

No body ever warrants punishment, it is always the cops' fault, right? Students are above the law? I thought that was only the Bush cabal.

[Garbo 2004]

152. But to be clear, it wasn't the cops' job to mete out "punishment," that's for the court.

The student was removed from the library and charged with obstruction of police; the issue of punishment for his infraction is in the hands of the legal system.

As for your argument regarding we don't know how strong the student was, perhaps he still needed to be subdued although he was in cuffs and on the ground, UCLA PD Asst Chief Young said the student was not actively resisting the officers:

"Young described Tabatabainejad as a "passive resister" who refused to cooperate with officers. He acknowledged that the student didn't actively resist the officers.

"He was 200 pounds and went limp and was very hard to manage. They were trying to get him on his feet," Young said.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-taser18nov18,0,4080498.story?page=1&coll=la-home-headlines

As for "getting him back on his feet" (which wasn't necessary in order to remove him from the premises) via the use of a taser, that line seems to conflict with what the Chief of the UCLA PD said in the same article:

"UCLA Police Chief Karl Ross said the officers decided to use the Taser to incapacitate Tabatabainejad after he went limp while they were escorting him out and urged other library patrons to join his resistance." (Witnesses btw say the student was already on his way out when officers arrived and confronted him, grabbing his arm which escalated the incident into a physical confrontation.)

So the Chief says the cops used the taser to "incapacitate" the student while the Asst Chief says the cops were using it to "get him on his feet" which is hard to do if he's just been tasered and "incapacitated" according to the Chief. They don't seem to be on the same page.

In any case, the use of the taser clearly did not achieve the claimed desired results: the student could still speak and scream (which attracted a crowd) and either wouldn't or couldn't stand to comply with the police. Yet the police continued to taser him as if they would get different results. Rather than an "inducement" for compliance the tool instead appeared a punishment for noncompliance. Considering that they didn't need him to stand in order to drag or carry him out and the student wasn't actively resisting, the use of the taser appears unnecessary, ineffective, counterproductive and excessive.

But again regarding "punishment," the penalty for not showing ID on demand in the library after hours is to not be allowed to remain in the library. The penalty for obstructing the police is being charged with that offense (as the student was) and it's up to the court to decide and mete out the punishment, not the police.

And as for any possible UC disciplinary action, there's also due process for that. In your opinion apparently, one instance of refusal to show ID in a school library not only warrants expulsion but also the denial of admission to any other college or university. So much for proportionality, if you believe a student's failure/refusal to produce ID as in this instance is such an "inexcusable" and egregious violation of authority that it warrants banishment from all colleges/universities. One imagines you likely were not on a college campus in the 60's or 70's if an instance of refusal to show a student ID has you in such righteous high dudgeon.

[conscious evolution]

105. LOL

[TankLV]

119. They "dare" to because you ARE!

You display an appalling lack of comprehension.

Your "argument" is failing badly.

You are only treated as you earn it - in this case it is as a simpleton...

[Ms. Clio]

147. odd

obviously been waiting for years to defend the torturers of a kid in a library. THIS is the topic that draws it out.

[pnwmom]

141. You think the student should be expelled?

I think we should all be thanking him for bringing the University's Taser policy to the light of day.

[Ms. Clio]

145. you don't know jack shit about universities or libraries or civil rights

[0rganism]

66. of course they don't have to let you in or serve you drinks

and if you act like a real asshole, they might just call the cops. But the bartender sure as shit doesn't get to taser you repeatedly for noncompliance.

[we can do it]

89. He Was In A LIBRARY - Do You Show ID To Go Into A Library?

They only spot check after 11pm. Also, I have been stopped by police and have had no ID on me, they didn't pull me out of the car and shock me.

[conscious evolution]

103. A bar is private property

UCLA is a TAXPAYER funded institution.

Big differance.

[pnwmom]

133. No, they can have a bouncer haul you out.

Which is what should have happened here. If they have an official policy requiring an ID after 11 (nothing is in their written regulations, however), then they would be justified in making him leave -- in dragging him out, if they had to.

But they were not justified in what they did instead -- subjecting him to repeated painful shocks that most likely prevented him from carrying out their orders. (Medical research shows that the immobilizing effects of a single Tasing can persist for as long as 15 minutes. But the police administered 5 or more Tasings within several minutes.)

If a police officer pulls you over and you have forgotten your license, would that justify him handcuffing you and repeatedly Tasing you after you fell to the ground?

[Big_Mike]

112. No, this is not being picked on.

There were notices placed that told the students they must show ID after 11 p.m. The Campus Security Officer (CSO) announced he was checking ALL student IDs. When the student refused to comply, the CSA called the UCPD, who are sworn police officers. The CSO, who is a student, does not attempt any physical contact with the student. The members of the UCPD are State Police Officers. They are trained on the escalation of situations. Initially, and preferably, talk rules the day. Unfortunately, talk sometimes fails to persuade.

In this case, the student has refused to comply with numerous requests to leave. Then, and I am uncertain if he is proceeding towards the exit or not, over the tape you hear him demand "Don't touch me! Don't touch me!" and you hear the cop respond to "Get up, get up." (around 13 sec on the tape).

At this point, they can either effectively hog tie him and drag him out, all the time as he fights being touched, or they can use the Taser to drive him out. Being dragged down numerous stairs is likely to lead to injury, either to the student or to the officer, which will take time to recover from. The Taser causes pain, but no injury.

He continues telling the officers to "Let go of me, let go of me." (30 second mark on the tape). He has been directed by a law enforcement officer (LEO) to move, and he is not doing so. The Supreme Court has upheld the dictum that you must follow the instructions of LEOs. You can bring suit later, if you feel your rights have been violated, but you must comply. I have no idea of how long the student and cops were interacting prior to the video starting, but I would imagine it is more than simply a few seconds, more likely a couple of minutes.

He now receives the first Tasering. At this point, the choices legally available to the officers are to use Pepper Spray (OC), for the chemical name of the agent) which causes immediate swelling and contractions of mucus membranes (eyes shut involuntarily and breathing becomes difficult) the Taser, or escalate the event and use a pain infliction technique to ensure compliance (the twisting a wrist, binding an arm with the night-stick, or some other method of like type). Of the three, the Taser is the safest and causes the least likely harm. It does indeed cause pain, but within 5 minutes of Tasering, the symptoms have generally subsided. OC clears over time (up to a couple hours), and if you are unfortunate to be sweating or get wet while it is on you, it gets worse. Twisting of arms can easily lead to broken bones. And given that this is California, there will definitely be lawsuits involved.

At about 1:30 seconds, he gives the "Here's your Patriot Act" quote, but still refuses to comply with the cop's orders to get up. He says that he said he would leave, but he had already crossed the line in failing to comply with the earlier requests, and I imagine they have also earlier told him he is under arrest, but I do not know that to be a fact; he appears in the video at the 5 minute mark to already be handcuffed, and that is how I come to this conclusion.

The main point is that I believe using the Taser is the LEAST physically damaging method they had, and this case appears to be within the provisions for use.

And, as of the last thing I saw, the student is bringing federal suit, thinking that he had been picked out due to his appearance. Good for him. Don't know as he will win, but that is how the system is supposed to work. Had he got up and left initially, nothing would have happened. Had he shown ID, nothing would have happened. He resisted and was arrested, which seems to be what he was looking for. He was not injured, so that is to the good. His protest is going forward.

Edited to correct Campus Security Officer (CSO)

[IntiRaymi]

123. You wrote 5 paragraphs repeating things, to state a fallacy:

The main point is that I believe using the Taser is the LEAST physically damaging method they had, and this case appears to be within the provisions for use.

This is false. The number of deaths caused by Tasering is quite large.
Simply dragging the student out would have been far less damaging a method.
Let the cops burn.

[pnwmom]

134. The student and other witnesses disagree with your statement of facts.

The student's lawyer says that the white males in the vicinity were NOT asked for their ID.

Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that the first Tasing may have been justified. You acknowledge that the effects of a Tasing may last for 5 minutes. How do you justify his having been repeatedly Tased, even after the handcuffs were on? How do you justify 4 additional Tasings, each of which locked up his muscles in the affected area (legs and buttocks) and made it harder and harder to carry out their orders to stand up? How do you justify 4 additional Tasings despite his saying "I can't" (stand up), and "I'll leave" and "I'm NOT fighting you" and informing them that he had a medical condition?

[Big_Mike]

167. I have done further research

My Google-fu last night was weak. The five minute recovery time I had looked up last night was when the taser is used in the "probe" manner, where two barbs are fired from the taser, penetrate the skin, and the shock induces neuromuscular response (locking up muscles). The recovery period from this is about 5 minutes (as a rule of thumb). When used as it was in this instance in the "drive-stun" mode, it is a pain compliance device, and does not inhibit muscular function.

Further research shows that some police departments encourage use on passive resistance subjects. Others preclude the use on passive resistance subjects. I guess, from what I read, that it is up to the Department Training Unit to determine their rules of engagement for tasers. Personally, after having read the material, I believe that precluding use on passively resisting subjects makes more sense. However, there are studies out showing a decrease in injuries to both subjects and officers in the range of 25% from pre-taser use periods. So I can see some City Managers pushing the police to use this to lessen the chance of lawsuits from injuries, and also to lower Workers' Compensation cases involving officers. Amnesty International is strongly against the use of tasers. Frankly, I would prefer to see a decent independent study to measure the effects of tasers, and what reasonable rules of engagement for their use should be. But one other statistic I did note is a reduction of officer shootings. There is a slight chance of death from tasers, but a much greater one from choke holds or shootings.

[pnwmom]

169. A decrease in officer shootings has nothing to do with this situation.

I'm not saying that tasering is never justified -- but it is supposed to be used INSTEAD of more lethal force, not in situations where lethal force would never be used. Back in the old days, before they gave the boys their toys, a couple of officers would just have carried the limp protestor out. Which is what they did eventually in this case, too -- but only after administering 5 tasings.

Actually, a medical study I read about concluded that muscles can lock up for as long as 15 minutes in either mode. And the product warning material produced by the Taser company (and available as a pdf file on its web site) makes no distinction in the risks of the two modes.

"Breathing Impairment. Extended or repeated TASER device exposures should be avoided where practical. Although existing studies on conscious human volunteers indicate subjects continue to breathe during extended TASER device applications, it is conceivable that the muscle contractions may impair a subject's ability to breathe. In tests conducted on anesthetized pigs repeated TASER device applications did cause cessation of breathing during TASER device discharges, although it is unclear what impact the anesthesia or other factors may have had on the test results. Accordingly, where appropriate and practical, it is advisable to use expedient physical restraint in conjunction with the TASER device to minimize the overall duration of stress, exertion, and potential breathing impairment particularly on individuals exhibiting symptoms of excited delirium and/or exhaustion. However, it should be noted that certain subjects in a state of excited delirium may exhibit superhuman strength and despite efforts for expedient restraint, these subjects sometimes cannot be restrained without a significant and profound struggle. "

SNIP

"Muscle Contraction-Related Risks. The TASER device can cause strong muscle contractions that may result in physical exertion or athletic-type injuries. In certain instances this may be serious for some people, such as those with pre-existing conditions and/or special susceptibilities. This may also occur in instances where a person has an unusual and/or unanticipated response to the TASER device deployment and/or discharge.

Secondary Injury Risks. TASER-induced strong muscle contractions usually render a subject temporarily unable to control his or her psychomotor movements. This may result in secondary injuries such as those due to falls. This loss of control, or inability to catch oneself, can in special circumstances increase the risk(s) of serious injury or death. Persons who are physically infirm or pregnant are among those who may be at higher risk. Other persons at higher risk include: those located on elevated or unstable platforms (e.g., trees, roofs, ladders, ledges, cranes, loading docks), operating a vehicle or machinerlocated in water may drown if their ability to move is restricted. "

http://www.palmbeachpost.com/localnews/content/local_news/epaper/2005/05/30/m1a_taser_0530.html

It turns out that the drive-stun mode may be even more dangerous, because of its potential for misuse, than the two prong mode.

"Even the company that makes the stun gun, Taser International, urges caution about use of the weapon in the "drive-stun" mode and with repeated shocks — uses that The Post survey found have been frequent on the streets of Palm Beach County and the Treasure Coast.

SNIP

"Officers also can remove the prong cartridge and discharge the weapon directly against a person's body in the "drive-stun" mode to subdue combative arrestees with a searing jolt of pain.

"The Taser training manual advises that because it is not incapacitating, this mode can lead to "prolonged struggles" and that "it is in these types of scenarios that officers are often facing accusations of excessive force."

SNIP

"A recent amendment to the DeLand Police Department's Taser policy is clearer, saying that the "drive-stun" mode can be used only under exceptional circumstances. Local policies don't address the use of the "drive-stun" mode in writing, although narratives in some of the reports examined by The Post acknowledge that this use is discouraged.

"Still, the weapon was used in the drive-stun mode in encounters described in at least 209 of the 1,017 reports."

The Taser company doesn't care about getting valid research; they just care about selling more Tasers. To that end, they're currently suing a Forensic medical examiner for his or her conclusion that a Taser was one of the factors in a subject's death. Imagine how intimidating that must be to medical examiners -- conclude that a Taser was a factor in a heart attack, for example -- and get sued by a huge corporation.

[marshall]

117. Not true

Libraries have been defined by the courts as a "limited public forum". I'm not supporting the tasering, but in fact he did NOT have the right to stage a protest. He should have complied with the repeated requests to leave and staged his protest outside or at the regents' meeting.

[pnwmom]

143. Nobody has a "right" to perform civil disobedience, by definition.

Passive resistors have always faced a risk of arrest and prosecution.

But we all have a right, under the Constitution, to be treated as innocent until proven guilty, to be judged by a jury of our peers, and to not be subject to police brutality.

By the way, the Regent's meeting was no more appropriate a place than the library (legally speaking), for a sit-down protest. Obviously, the University must have told the police NOT to use Tasers on the students there. But under their written policy -- the policy that the campus cops knew about when they Tasered the student -- they certainly could have.

The University administrators who approved the Taser policy are just as culpuble as the police officers, IMO.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

51. Do they test the tasers on their kids?

How about their elderly grandmothers?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

52. This is why I support the 2nd Amendment.

Fuck these thugs.

[athena]

56. They don't taser themselves the way they do their victims.

When they get tasered, they have a chance to prepare for it mentally. Their buddies hold them by the arm to make sure they don't fall to the floor too roughly. It's not the same as being electrocuted to the floor at the feet of police in uniform, with all sorts of people looking on while you scream, whimper, and writhe. Also, the officers get a single jolt lasting less than 5 seconds. When it comes to their victims, though, they zap them repeatedly, for much longer periods. A search for "taser" on YouTube brings up lots of videos of cops getting tasered, as well as several very disturbing arrest scenes similar to the UCLA one. In one of them, a woman is obviously in extreme agony, and the cop says (paraphrasing), "Stop it already; it doesn't hurt that much. We got tasered, too, we know what it's like." Sure they do.

Anyone who thinks cops can be relied on to be professional should watch this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAKebaxEMoI&mode=related&search=

[zreosumgame]

75. sorry, but a big NO on that one good buddy

that is slave thinking there.

[IndyOp]

80. Do you believe he should have been tasered 4+ times AFTER handcuffed?

According to students at the library he had on his backpack and was walking to the door when a cop grabbed his arm and stopped him.

Whether or not he should have left more promptly after refusing to show his ID -- he should NEVER have been tasered after having been handcuffed - over and over again you can hear the cops saying "If you don't stand up and walk, you are going to be tazed again. If you don't stand up and walk, you are going to be tazed again."

Sorry, but these particular cops were sick SOBS to taser a guy who was handcuffed.

:grr:

[we can do it]

82. They Do Not Practice Tasers At Full Power Though

[mondo joe]

87. "Not trying to defend the cops".... but doing nothing but blame the

student for the actions of others.

[psychopomp]

95. He was walking out the door when he was stopped

When he demanded to be released he was electrified.

[TankLV]

118. This is NOT NAZI Germany! We fought a WAR to PREVENT this sort of thing.

You do NOT need "papers" to walk around. Period.

This WAS america, until the repukes took over...

Your statement is ridiculuous at best, at worst, I'd hate to imagine where you are comming from...

[pnwmom]

121. What you recommend is the safe thing to do

and what I've told my two sons they should do, because I'm their mother.

But I'm not sure that it would have been the BEST thing to do. Suppose this young man honestly thought he was singled out for his appearance. (His attorney says that the white males in the area were not asked to show ID.) Suppose he decided to perform an act of civil disobedience, as he says (i.e., going limp when the police grabbed him.)

By his actions, this young man has revealed that the official UCLA policy on Tasers allows the campus cops to use Tasers or "pain compliance" on passive resistors -- as with "dangerous animals." Is that the kind of policy we want Universities or other institutions to have in place -- allowing repeated shocks of 50,000 volts to passive resistors posing no threat to anyone?

This young and foolish and brave and loud and angry young man, in standing up for his civil liberties, has done us all a favor.

IMHO.

[athena]

149. Precisely.

Suppose this young man honestly thought he was singled out for his appearance. (His attorney says that the white males in the area were not asked to show ID.) Suppose he decided to perform an act of civil disobedience, as he says (i.e., going limp when the police grabbed him.)

By his actions, this young man has revealed that the official UCLA policy on Tasers allows the campus cops to use Tasers or "pain compliance" on passive resistors -- as with "dangerous animals." Is that the kind of policy we want Universities or other institutions to have in place -- allowing repeated shocks of 50,000 volts to passive resistors posing no threat to anyone?

This young and foolish and brave and loud and angry young man, in standing up for his civil liberties, has done us all a favor.

That's exactly what I was thinking, but I couldn't have put it so beautifully. I'm proud of him for standing up for his rights, and I'm proud of him for pursuing them in court.

[pnwmom]

158. I'm proud of him, too, Athena. And I hope

his parents are holding up okay! I know I'd be a wreck if it were my son on that video . . . .

[smoogatz]

13. K&R. I hope he sues the crap out of them. n/t

[athena]

19. I hope so, too. Otherwise, neither the LAPD nor the UCLA will take any action.

Thanks, BTW!

[bluestateguy]

18. Good. He should sue those rent a cops personally

Make THOSE cops pay for what they did, such that they have to live the rest of their lives on welfare.

[stevenstevensteven]

20. ID Check

Can someone please tell me what right campus police have to demand ID from anyone without probable cause. Uh, excuse me, but can I see your papers please. Sounds like the practices of governments we went to war with and defeated.

[LostinVA]

23. I think they shouldn't be allowed to on public universities

Not for just being in a public building, like library... but they do.

[stevenstevensteven]

24. ID Check

and so, if you refuse, you get tasered? Is this some new unalienable right that I didn't know about?

Do these campus police take an oath of any kind? perhaps to uphold the California state Constitution? What is the final check on their police powers. There must be something in place that provides limits.

[mondo joe]

25. Zero defense of the officers - but the university library, IMO, has the

right to restrict access and even require ID. It is publicly funded, but it is not a public library.

[Trillo]

34. "publicly funded, but it is not a public library"

Interesting how that may work. I guess the word "public" is under some "privatization" (but that is another matter)

The demand for ID would seem to need to be enforced equally in that case. Intermittently demanding ID wouldn't seem a competent standard of information request that's required for restricted access.

Reads like a mincing of words, actually. "Yeah, we restrict access, except when we don't."

[mondo joe]

39. Lots of entities receive public funds. Schools, hospitals, universities,

many non profits.

Are you suggesting that any entitythat receives any public funds has to have unlimited access to all areas of the physical facility?

[Trillo]

44. Maybe.

"Schools" and "universities"? Maybe, but disturbing a class would need mitigating.
"hospitals"? Maybe (national healthcare? but patient privacy mitigates)
"many non profits"? You mean like a Church?

Library? Perhaps. Perhaps even probably.

I definitely wouldn't be comfortable with the public being able to access
publicly paid for nuclear materials.

A library is closely analogous to the Internet, simply a source of information. No bombs or weapons are there.

Should the Internet become a private resource? Is it already one?

But it is a curious idea, that public tax money should remain public property and be used only for the 'common good'. (I forget, what is the constitutional phrase? General welfare?)

I wonder how it would work out if the commons of the airwaves were in fact publicly instead of privately owned. Would MSM be as concerned about pleasing their boss?

A lot of this really pushes the envelope of what this particular case is about: brutality and projection and pecking order and punishing of those who are imperfectly (humanly) attempting to comply (he was leaving because he apparently didn't have ID).

[mondo joe]

45. Like a church? Of course not. Like a community health center.

That's one example.

The library is not a public library - it's the university library. The orimary purpose is to serve the student population - not the public at large, though that is a secondary accomodation.

[Trillo]

47. You grouped hospital and school, etc., all together in one question.

They were imperfectly grouped.

Is that university library paid for with tax dollars? Or is it paid for by student fees? Is it mixed?

What are the precise (and not creative accounting) ratios of each? Is the public getting what it pays for? edited to add: Are the students?

[mondo joe]

49. They are grouped for their similarity: they are all publicly funded

entities that do not offer unlimited access to public, nor are they generally expected to.

University libraries are funded though various revenue streams, and these ratios will naturally not be uniform from year to year or site to site.

But again, the university library - like hospitals, like primary schools, like community health centers or any number of tax funded entities - do not exist for the purpose of broad public access. They have a particular primary purpose, which may require limited access.

So the grouping is fine, as is the requirement for ID.

[Trillo]

55. I simply disagree about your grouping. Churches would be an example

of a typical non-profit. Of course there are other types of as well...

The student was reportedly in the process of leaving.

Maybe he forgot his wallet that day when he left his residence. Occasionally it happens.

If students need to have ID for library access, then why isn't it required for access? If it's a "limited public" resource by law, then the entry ID logically required would need to be something other than a "student" ID. If the primary purpose of the library is to serve students, then closing it up to the public during later hours when the students are asleep doesn't make much sense, either, as it would make more sense to close it to the public during students' peak usage.

This whole incident seems to lack a lot of logic.

Taser an ID lacking student (later confirmed as a student) when he's essentially complying with a leave request.

[mondo joe]

61. Churches do not (or should not) receive tax funds.

If you review the thread you'll see I am adamantly opposed to the student being tasered.

What I do not oppose is the library requiring ID, which I also think they should simply require for admission.

That said, even if ID is required for admission someone may still be required to show it in the library.

[we can do it]

91. You Pay To Use Community Health Centers

[mondo joe]

93. And if you're a student you pay to support the university library.

Your point...?

[we can do it]

96. Sorry - I Meant Its A Pay As You Go At Community Center, Library Is Free

I know you pay into it as a student. I have never had to show ID at my university library(unless checking something out or using equipment) as a student or even lately. I have gone back occasionally to research one thing or another. no problem, ever. (I graduated a while back btw) I never would have given it any thought that I may be chased out or even tasered.....

So my point is, I would expect to show ID if there was a charge or membership fee, but not at a library.

[mondo joe]

98. It's not a public library. It's a university library. After 11pm they

require ID to access the library.

[we can do it]

99. I Thought It Was Only Random Checks After 11pm

Honestly, why bother a student who's been studying at a computer terminal? It would make some sense if someone was being disruptive or possibly getting ready to camp-out, but not someone who is reading or writing. Is it possible to lose track of time? Did he not get his things together and attempt to leave? I am not sure what the problem you are having with this. The man WAS a student of UCLA, he had every right to be there. Have you never forgotten or misplaced your ID? How safe was the rest of the campus when all the rentacops were converging on the mad studier?

[mondo joe]

100. Probably because they don't KNOW it's a student? I think that's the point of

the ID check.

I have NEVER suggested the officers did the right thing - in fact I've done nothing but condemn them.

But I think the university has a legitimate security interest in limiting access to students.

[we can do it]

107. Well Now Who Else Might Be Sitting There Studying With A Big Pile of Books?

Their job is to protect students, it would make a lot of sense to walk around looking for people not doing what they are supposed to, other than disrupting people who are studying. Of course sitting there studying could just be a clever disguise, he could have been just anyone....reading. Of course the kid did have the nerve to be of Iranian descent. What a waste of money.

[mondo joe]

108. Hm, someone who wanted to look like a student while watching for a

woman to leave the library alone late at night? That's one example.

Look, they have no business hassling someone because of ethnicity, they have NO business tasering someone who isn't violent.

But to pretend a university library has no reason to have security, especially late at night, is foolish.

[we can do it]

113. Security Is One Thing, Hassling People Who Are Studying Is Another

We both agree that hassling someone because of their ethnicity is wrong, and I also feel it is wrong to hassle someone because he happens to be male. (I am a woman myself) Keeping an eye on someone who is acting up or just lurking there at the door watching for someone to walk out is another. (Isn't that why we supposedly invaded Iraq, because they might have wmd?) It was mentioned in an earlier post that the security people are available to walk women who feel unsafe to their cars.

[pnwmom]

170. Interestingly enough, mondo joe,

another DU'er posted about his experience as a campus cop, ending in 2000. He said that when a student forgot his ID, he would look for other evidence that he was a student -- like what was in his backpack.

Of course, that was pre 9/11.

[pnwmom]

174. It's clear from other posts that the UCLA library IS open to the

public during the day, but restricted after 11. That's why they checked the student's ID. The main question is if the student is right that he was selectively chosen to be ID'd.

[marshall]

41. We are having problems at my university library

I am a librarian at a university library, and this year for the first time we are having problems with people creating scenes, refusing to be quiet when asked, etc. The procedure is to ask them to leave, then to call the police. Both times in the last month when campus police were called they have refused to do anything because I guess they don't want to be caught up in a situation like this.

Libraries have been identified by the courts as a "limited public forum". They have a specific purpose--as a place for quiet contemplation and study. I don't think they were right to have tasered this student (unless there is more to the story than we now know) but I do think other patrons who come to the library to use it for its intended purpose should not be forced to suffer because somebody wants to make it the scene of a public protest.

I'm not sure what the solution is, but without even being able to identify who the student is what can be done about it? Maybe if students swiped their ID cards through a machine as they entered the building there would at least be a record of who is in the library and if somebody creates a disturbance and refuses to cooperate there is at least some means of tracking them down beyond tasering them.

[Igel]

65. I've seen that implemented.

The library at university my wife's currently at is actually open something like Sunday noon to Friday midnight, and then Saturday daytime. The doors are unlocked from something like 8 am to 10 pm, and a card must be swiped for entrance--or ID presented and authorization granted by a security officer. During the other hours circulation services are shut, but the library can be accessed by swiping your university ID.

I think it's risky, but haven't checked what security is on patrol at the time. Perhaps they have somebody there making sure that materials don't walk out the door and students don't let outsiders in.

[pnwmom]

173. Tasering wasn't being used as a method of tracking anyone down.

And the library is open to members of the tax-paying public during the day.

The solution would have been for the police to carry the limp protestor out of the building (as they ultimately did, anyway). Just like they did to the sit-down strikers in the Regent's office a couple of days later. Obviously, someone in the meantime told the police to put their Tasers away. They have no business using them on non-violent passive resistors.

[conscious evolution]

106. In Georgia collegelibraries and

gyms are,by law,open to the public.

[Igel]

63. UCLA is run by the Regents of UC.

They dictate who can and can't be on campus, esp. 11:30 pm in CLICC lab (computer lab). The library's closed by then, but study lounges are left open. California state funding provides a small portion of UC's funding, under 20% in the '90s and probably less now.

ASUCLA (think "student union") in the 1990s used to leave its lounges open 24 hours/day, and they wound up with homeless and mentally ill sacking out for the night, sometimes threatening students. Students frequently take naps in study lounges; they have been groped, attacked, and raped by people from off campus (and from on campus). The lounges were closed for a while over litigation concerns; security was finally hired to secure the students' safety.

It's apparently routine to have CSOs patrol the library (and ASUCLA)--they set up shop at the dorms, as well, and wander around campus and any building that's open. They provide escort services for anybody that doesn't want to go to a dorm or parking structure alone. CSOs are sort of community police, students hired to be foot patrol and good samaritans; they can't arrest, they can only call for campus security as backup. Sometimes they get a bit oafish, but they have the authority to order trespassers to leave--but the CSO folk are also the target of routine taunting and provocations by students that hate "the pigs", until, of course, one of the pig-hating students is raped or his/her bookpack vanishes while its owner is napping. One of the CSOs' standing duties is to check IDs to keep the homeless and those otherwise not authorized to be on campus out of facilities that might be fairly desolate or contain valuable fixtures. Such as computers. The regulations are posted, even if the CSOs on duty are thuggish.

The guy shouldn't have been tasered; he should have been picked up and dumped on the ground outside. On the other hand, he ignored the CSOs, and stuck around long enough for the campus police to show up. Then he ignored them.

[Luminous Animal]

79. UC funding

Right now it's at about 65% state general funds and UC system funds. The members of the Board of Regents are not members of a private entity but one that is chartered by the California constitution and whose members are appointed by the governor.

[paulk]

69. according to the UCPD it is University policy

to ID after 11pm. The expressed purpose is the safety of the students. Only students, staff, and faculty are allowed to stay in the library after 11pm. ID checks are carried out on a random basis, at least in theory.

It doesn't seem that unreasonable a policy IMO.

[natrat]

28. fuck the police

[MindPilot]

31. UCLA Campus Police are just LAPD Officers in training

hoping for the chance to advance their careers by punching a Mexican in the face or clubing a Black man into submission. Pigs.

[justjones]

53. Except there are less brown and black people on campus....

at least among the undergraduate student population, thanks to the passage of Prop 209. This incident along with the recent admission statistics should have UCLA's Administration shitting in their pants.

[Copperred]

35. HOW MANY PEOPLE DO TASERS NEED TO MURDER?

BEFORE THESE ARE BANNED.

[Garbo 2004]

36. In other news, no tasers used when 9 students refused to leave UC Regents mtg at UCLA

yesterday:

"The regents meeting came to a halt when students in the audience began clapping and Darwin BondGraham, a UC Santa Barbara graduate student, announced that the meeting was being disrupted in order to prevent the regents from discussing the status of these labs.

Among chants of "UC, nuclear free," regents evacuated the room and police officers were called in to remove the students...

...When told they had to leave the room, the students sat down on the floor and continued chanting. In order to remove the students, UCPD officers handcuffed them and dragged them from the room."
http://dailybruin.com/news/articles.asp?id=38998

Which is what one would expect. Rather than cops yelling at them to stand up and repeatedly tasering them when they didn't stand up which apparently is what they did with the guy in the library. And in the end, they still wound up dragging him out which they could have done previously without using the taser.

[Ignacio Upton]

157. Those cops handled it the right way

Unlike the assholes who tasered that student. They could have just dragged him out of the library.

[warrens]

37. Instead of money

He should sue to have them all tasered repeatedly on national television.

[genieroze]

38. Kick

[yebrent]

62. They tasered the guy AFTER he was already in handcuffs.

Those cops should rot in prison.

[semillama]

67. Hell, they tasered him on the ground.

They tasered him when it was obvious he wasn't a threat.

How is this any different from hitting him with a nightstick?

Heads will roll.

[treestar]

68. S. Yagman

I knew it! He is number one when it comes to suing cops.

[Name removed]

72. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ScreamingWhisper]

74. My university library required you to show ID at the time of entry, to avoid

such things happening. I couldn't discern whether or not this university library has the same policy, or whether
he was stopped to inquire once he was inside and doing his business. If he did NOT have his ID or refused to show it, then the campus police should have the right to remove him. (Honestly, it's not like they memorize the on-campus / off-campus student body by sight, y'know)The Tazer(ing) was excessive IMO, as they could have takin' him by the legs and shoulders and carried him out.

[Eurobabe]

116. I want to know prompted them to taser him

in the first place, really.

This was excessive force. That video is extremely disturbing.

[MUSTANG_2004]

125. My thoughts as well

All the debate over whether the library is public are just silly. University libraries aren't open to the public anymore than the university dorms are. The university has the clear right to limit access to just students. Actually, since space is frequently limited, they have a responsibility to make sure that student needs take priority over others' needs.

The three issues are:
1) Did they single him out for the ID check, or were they checking everyone?
2) Why did they Taser him in the first place?
3) Why did they Taser him after he was in handcuffs? (I haven't seen the handcuff Tasering confirmed, just saw it in comments here.)

[Ms. Clio]

154. you are wrong, many members of the public use university libraries

The comparison with university dorms is not at all valid. Often independent scholars use university archives and special collections.

And maybe if you watched the video yourself, you would see that there was no reason to taser him at all.

[MUSTANG_2004]

155. I think you misunderstood what I wrote

I didn't say that other people don't use the libraries. I said that university libraries are not libraries that are open to the public by right. The university can restrict access to the libraries. Especially in this case, where they limit the activity after 11:00PM to just students.

I did watch a video of the incident. The person filming did not get direct video of the incident, catching mostly just the bystanders. From the video alone it's difficult to see why the police chose to Taser him or how it happened (the student was off-camera when he started screaming, if I remember correctly).

If the news articles are substantially correct, then there was no need to Taser him. However, that's not something clearly visible on the video.

[Ms. Clio]

156. I did not misunderstand; you said that university libraries were like dorms

they are not. No (sane) member of the public expects access to a college dorm at any time.

And the kid was a student. With our without his ID. Why couldn't they have just checked his name and/or student ID number (I have mine memorized) in the computer?

[pnwmom]

175. They first said it was because he didn't leave quickly enough.

Later, they said that it was because he was verbally trying to foment rebellion (I can't remember their words, but that's the gist.)

There has never been any suggestion that any of them felt threatened. You could see it on the video. Only two of the police officers were dealing with him. The rest of them were just standing around watching and talking to other students.

[Ms. Clio]

148. I think it's terrible to require ID to enter a university library

So many people, including visiting professors and members of the public, use university libraries. I often use another university's library because it's closer.

[Vidar]

76. I hope he makes enough to pay off school & loans.

[we can do it]

92. Thats Just What I Was Thinking

and grad school, too.

[athena]

151. Maybe he'll decide to become a civil-rights attorney (nt)

[EFerrari]

86. I finally saw this report on Olbermann. It always comes home. n/t

[bluedogbruin]

109. Some Backround Info from a Former UCLA CSO

Just to give everybody some background information. I worked as a CSO at UCLA from 1998-2000. In fact I worked that Powell shift many times. To assuage people's Patriot Act fears, the policy of banning people who did not have UCLA IDs after 11 pm has been standard policy from when I worked there. Basically, Powell library is open to the public until 11pm. At 11pm the library closes, and the library staff leaves. The only part of the library that is open is the reading room on the west side of the first floor. It is open to students only so that they have a safe place to study.

Most likely, the student wasn't racially profiled. When I worked the Powell shift, at 11pm I would ask each and every student in the reading room to show their ID to confirm they were UCLA students. This was the UCLA CSO policy in effect at the time, and I'm pretty sure its still in effect.

When I had somebody who said they forgot their ID, I would take a look at their backpack and clothes (most students studying that late are decked out in UCLA sweats and have a UCLA backpack). If I couldn't tell by their clothing if they were a student, I would talk to them about their classes to figure out if they were a student. If I was pretty sure they were a student, I would tell them to bring their ID next time.

If they weren't a UCLA student, and the they were nice to me, and the library wasn't crowded (like during finals) I would inform them of the UCLA policy and then let them stay. Most were students from other colleges who lived in the neighborhood and needed a place to study.

If they weren't a UCLA student, or didn't have ID, and were assholes, I'd enforce the library policy strictly. Out they went. I never needed to call for the UCPD to assist me in my job.

As an aside, you'd be surprised by the amount of criminal activity that takes place in the libraries at UCLA. Mostly theft, but there were always numerous sexually related activities like "mad masterbators" and guys with mirrors on their shoes.

[Karenina]

136. Thanks for you perspective

and Welcome to DU!!! :toast:

[bluedogbruin]

161. Thanks

Thanks for the welcome. I'd been lurking here fore awhile, but this hit so close to home that I figured I should comment.

[pnwmom]

146. The student's attorney says that

whoever was checking the ID singled out the student and didn't ask the white males in the vicinity for their ID. Also, he had a backpack full of student stuff. I don't know why they didn't do as you did. That would have been reasonable.

You were there before 911. Maybe the atmosphere IS more poisonous now.

[bluedogbruin]

163. It's been 6 years since I was a CSO, so take what I say with a grain of salt

Could be that things have changed since I was there...it was 6 years ago. However, the Powell shift was what we called a "study shift." Patrols every 15 minutes or so and then the rest of the time we sat at the entrance IDing people who entered. This basically encouraged a get along, go along mentality.

All this will shake out in the end. Could be that the student was mistaken about being singled out (he does now have a financial incentive) or that he was singled out by the CSO for legitimate reasons (e.g., the student arrived while the CSO was on patrol and wasn't IDed at the the door and the CSO recognized him as a new face - I've been there, done that) or the CSO has some nefarious reason.


I'd be cautious in believing everything his attorney says. He has been disciplined by the state bar on at least two occasions.

See http://members.calbar.ca.gov/search/member_detail.aspx?x=69737

[pnwmom]

176. The Daily Bruin said that it was a "random check"

which usually means that not everyone was checked. I can see why the student was suspicious about why he was the one picked for the random check.

[WinkyDink]

114. Wait until they get microwave weapons.....

[mcg]

184. that they want to test out on our fellow citizens

Details of US microwave-weapon tests revealed
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18725095.600

" ... The experimenters banned glasses and contact lenses to prevent possible eye damage to the subjects, and in the second and third tests removed any metallic objects such as coins and keys to stop hot spots being created on the skin. They also checked the volunteers' clothes for certain seams, buttons and zips which might also cause hot spots. ... "

Hmmm, how many people wear glasses or contact lenses?

Microwave weapon intensified by sweaty skin
http://www.newscientisttech.com/article/dn10084-microwave-weapon-intensified-by-sweaty-skin.html

' ... The Pentagon's "less-lethal" microwave-based crowd-control weapon – the Active Denial System (ADS) – produces potentially harmful hotspots when used in built-up areas, and its effects can be intensified by sweaty skin, tests have revealed. The flaws call into question the weapon's usefulness in hot conditions, like those in Iraq. ...

The secretary of the US Air Force, Michael Wynne, said recently that new non-lethal weapons like the microwave ADS should be used on Americans before being deployed to places like Iraq.

"If we're not willing to use it here against our fellow citizens, then we should not be willing to use it in a wartime situation," he told CNN. .. '

Let's see, there are big doubts about whether they are safe, so let's test them out on our fellow citizens???

Secretary Michael Wynne--Insane?
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=13540

'“Nonlethal weapons such as high-power microwave devices should be used on American citizens in crowd-control situations before being used on the battlefield…” These are the words of Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne.

Why does Wynne think this is a good idea?

"If we're not willing to use it here against our fellow citizens, then we should not be willing to use it in a wartime situation, (Because) if I hit somebody with a nonlethal weapon and they claim that it injured them in a way that was not intended, I think that I would be vilified in the world press."

Because he thinks he would be vilified in the world press. I’m wondering what he thinks the world press would do with the information that the US Air Force was testing weapons on un-approving Americans. ... '

[Prisoner_Number_Six]

128. Reminds me of a post I made just a few days ago

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=2691715

Can I call 'em or can I call 'em?

[Karenina]

150. Back in the day

We knew the police and the police knew us. It was called "community policing" and you stop that or I'm gonna tell Tom. And Tom will take you home to your mama and THEN you'll be in DEEP DOO-DOO with EVERYBODY in the neighborhood. Straighten up and fly right. It worked.

[Mizmoon]

159. From a libriarian

First of all, you wouldn't believe the number of freaks in the universe. I've heard about them all at ALA meetings - the ones who like to hide in the stacks and jerk off. The ones that like to leave nasty porn on the monitor for the librarian to find while he hides and watches her reaction. The leerers. The drunks who think they are whispering but are really yelling in a horse voice. Then there are the book theives, the homeless, and the patrons who forget we have masters degrees (often more than one) and think we're their secretaries. "Please make 100 copies of this, " they'll say, imperiously. Yeah, right.

And guess who gets to deal with them? The librarians.

And so after dealing with the kid who is in tears because a book he needs hasn't been returned on time, dealing with the one who swears he returned the periodical when you know he didn't, and the one who needs help locating every speech Kennedy ever made, we're supposed to check IDs. We do it for a reason - to reduce the risk to students and to ourselves by keeping outsiders out.

Another thing - the students have paid a fortune to have access to our collection and services. It's not right that anyone can waltz in and use the library. That's what their public library is for and the public library can access anything for them including academic journal articles, books via inter-library loan, etc. The university library is reserved for the campus community. Of course we have programs that allow access to visiting scholars and whatnot, but they have to request special permission to use the library and they must identify themselves. It's not fair to the tuition paying student to have to wait longer to use a resource because some outsider is using or borrowed it. They have priority - they paid tuition.

So all that is my long winded way of saying that this young man didn't leave a whole lot of options. he was disrupting the library, refusing to follow the basic terms of use, and should have just left when asked. They shouldn't have tasered him so many times, but boy was that kid asking for it.

[piedmont]

160. baloney-- he should not have been Tasered at all

It's been reported that he was in the act of leaving when the cops came and grabbed him. They should have let him leave, but they grabbed him. He went limp. If they really wanted him out that badly, they should have dragged him out. But no-- they had to use their torture toy.
Btw, the libraries of all the publicly funded universities I've dealt with were open to the public.

[Mizmoon]

178. I find it hard to believe

that he was "getting ready to leave" and they decided to taser him for fun.

I have never heard of any university library that is open to the public, public university or not.

[pnwmom]

172. The UCLA library is open to the public until 11 pm,

when its use is restricted to members of the University community. That's why they were checking the ID's at 11 p.m. Up till then, they weren't required.

Yes, students pay tuition. But you forget that taxpayers are also supporting the facility. And since UCLA is a public facility, not a private institution, it is open to members of the general public during the day, who are free to "waltz in and use the library" but not to check out books.

[Mizmoon]

179. Public university doesn't equal public facility

a public high school is public property but you can't waltz in there and use the gym whenever you feel like it. Why? For safety reasons.

If UCLA's library is really open to the public until 11 it would be the first one I've heard of that does that. I've always worked in the northeast though so I'm not familiar with the California system. Either way, at that time he was required to show ID.

[pnwmom]

177. No, he wasn't asking for it, anymore than the kids that

had a sit-down strike in the Regent's office two days later were "asking for it." (How come no one used a Taser on them? They were committing an act of civil disobedience as much as he was. They didn't leave when they were told to. Obviously, the campus cops were told in the meantime to put their toys away.)

Until the Taser was invented, all any police officers would have done was carry him out -- just as they did in this case anyway. There was no reason for this student or anyone else to expect that the officer would use a Taser on a limp, non-violent passive resistor.

[Mizmoon]

180. This wasn't civil disobedience

c'mon ... you can't really believe he was making any statement other than, "I'm special and don't have to follow the rules".

[Karenina]

181. Pssst... Mizmoon

(Something is showing...)

[Election]

162. Maybe he should worry about hiring a defense attorney first

n/t

[piedmont]

164. another law&order type

:eyes:

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[piedmont]

166. And to think I went through all the trouble of putting a sarcastic smiley in my post

Just to be clear, you and I agree here. cheers!

[Election]

168. Why yes, advocating that this man get a defense attorney definitely makes a fascist

You are obviously TEH SMRAT!!!

[G Hawes]

171. Should be interesting.

I hope that both sides of the civil suit keep their arguments out of the media and save it for the courtroom.

[athena]

185. I disagree. The more people hear about this, the better.

The vast majority of people who see the video are horrified by the unnecessary and excessive use of violence by the cops. Most people don't believe that the police should be in the business of punishing and humiliating people. People need to know what is going on out there, so that they can speak out against it.

[G Hawes]

186. You're "disagreeing" with something I didn't say.

Perhaps you should try reading it again.

I said that it should be an interesting case and that I hope both sides of the civil suit keep their arguments out of the media and save them for the courtroom. I didn't say that the video shouldn't be shown or that people shouldn't be made aware of the case.

My reason for saying that I hope they keep their arguments for the courtroom rather than trying their case in the media, is because people can and do say stupid things to news reporters sometimes, news reporters can and do misconstrue or twist what people say, etc. And when that happens, the words may come back to haunt the parties when the case gets to court, not to mention tainting the jury pool.

I'd like the guy to get a fair shake at taking down the cops who, in my view, acted quite inappropriately. I'd hate to see his case tanked by ill-advised words uttered to a shrewd reporter, or words taken out of context, or words twisted, etc.