Dutch government seeks to ban full-length veils

[BushOut06]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15766750/

<snip>
THE HAGUE, Netherlands - The Dutch government announced plans Friday for legislation banning full-length veils in public places and other clothing that covers the face — putting the Netherlands at the forefront of a general European hardening toward Muslim minorities.

The Netherlands, once considered one of Europe’s most welcoming nations for immigrants and asylum seekers, is deeply divided over moves by the government to stem the tide of new arrivals and compel immigrants to assimilate into Dutch society.

“The Cabinet finds it undesirable that face-covering clothing — including the burqa — is worn in public places for reasons of public order, security and protection of citizens,” Immigration Minister Rita Verdonk said.

Basing the order on security concerns apparently was intended to respond to warnings that outlawing clothing like the all-enveloping burqa, worn by some Muslim women, could violate the constitutional guarantee against religious discrimination.
<snip>

[baldguy]

1. How does stripping a person naked promote "public order, security and protection of citizens”?

[movonne]

2. I can't say that I'm against this...It has nothing to do with being

Muslin, it has to do with safety..

[closeupready]

3. A sad development for a country which

has been applauded for its practical approach to other types of "deviancy", i.e., people or behaviors which deviate from the norm (gays, prostitutes, drug users, etc.).

[Coventina]

4. Good. The burqa has no place in a free and open society.

The burqa is a tool for the oppression of women.

It is NOT required by Islam.

The burqa is patriarchal bullshit.

[gaspee]

5. Exactly

Because men can't handle the temptation of seeing a woman's face because men are animals. At least that's their theory. Oh yeah, and women are evil. I forgot that part. And if she doesn't wear a full length burqa, then she was asking for it. Just like a chick who dares to walk alone after being at a bar (per O'Liely.)

Gotta love that patriarchy, eh?

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

6. If it's a free and open society...

why can't they wear burqas?

[closeupready]

7. Exactly. Coericing people through enforcement of legislation like this

is precisely the way to get even more fundamentalism. This type of thing is what the colonialists did.

[PsychoDad]

14. Aside from the freedom of choice and expression question...

That also is my concern. Creating more and more isolated communities.

At least at present these women are out and about in the community. If such a ban would go into effect, many would just stay home and not go out.

How would you react if wearing pants in public were banned. No shorts, undies, nothing. Would you leave behind a piece of cloth that makes you feel more comfortable when in public, or opt to stay home.

Such a ban doesn't help the woman under the veil, it punishes her.

Remember there is a human being like you or I under there. It's not just a veil, it's a person.

[BushOut06]

10. I see plenty of burqas here in Orlando

There's a decent sized Muslim population here in Orlando, and every once in awhile I see women in full burqas while out and about. While it may not be required perse in Islam, I can't see banning it either. Not all of these women who are wearing the burqas fall under the "oppressed" Taliban-type system.

Besides, I have a feeling this has less to do with "safety" issues than it does a general anti-Muslim sentiment which seems to be sweeping Europe. If you may recall, there was a big flare-up recently about France banning Muslim headscarfs. I also tend to recall reading about other attempts to restrict Muslims in various European countries.

[phrenzy]

8. Good.

Sorry, there's such a thing as tolerating intolerance. Maybe we should allow guys to walk around in our malls openly as klansmen with white hoods? How about if I feel like wearing a ski mask all the time when walking into liquor stores.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. So you're comparing Muslims with Klan members?

Talk about intolerance.

[closeupready]

11. yeah, what's next -

next thing you know, the american nazi party will want to march. no way. :sarcasm:

Sorry, but light is the best disinfectant for crappy stuff, not suppression.

[PsychoDad]

12. Is there a law....

That prohibits you from walking around a mall as a klansman?

And I'm not sure there is a law that prohibits you from wearing a ski mask in public, a liquor store or grocery.

Are there such laws in your state? I know I have seen people dressed like Klansmen and nazis at rallys. Are they somehow prohibited from getting a gallon of milk on their way home unless they change?

I would perfer them to dress that way... Let's me know who and where the bigots are.

Far too many look just like you or me.

Peace.

[Stella_Artois]

13. This was inenvitable

Ever since that Dutch film maker was stabbed to death in the street for insulting Islam. There have also been a number of documentaries highlighting the lack of integration by some immigrants. You would think that people who have lived in The Netherlands for 30+ years would have made some effort to learn Dutch.

I'm not defending this, since i don't think its a great idea. This is just the context in which this decision was reached.

[w4rma]

15. Burqas are sexist. (nt)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

16. Burqa bans are racist.

[w4rma]

20. Not really. Although they probably should generalize the law to ban all facial coverings. (nt)

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

21. Yeah, right.

And we need to ban zoot suits, too.

Because... it's a waste of cloth. Or something.

:eyes:

[w4rma]

22. That is a false analogy. "Zoot suits" don't cover up one's identity.

"Zoot suits" also aren't worn for the purpose of showing submissiveness to another sex.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. No.

Zoot suits were an excuse to beat up Mexicans. The same way burqas are used as an excuse to oppress muslims.

[closeupready]

17. I agree totally.

I am not muslm, either, but as I understand it, there is no Islamic scriptural basis for them.

That is an issue separate from the issue of whether or not this law is a good idea, and I think it would cause more harm than solve problems.

[Dutch]

18. So obviously true, I'm depressed you had to say it.

But thank you for saying it anyway, in the face of the usual neo-mccarthyites.

[treestar]

19. OH for God's sake, just leave them alone

All this does is provoke outrage.

Leave them alone, and they'll be Dutch within a generation.

Sheesh.