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NYT: To crack down on DUIs, MADD urges alcohol sensors in cars

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Newsjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:00 AM
Original message
NYT: To crack down on DUIs, MADD urges alcohol sensors in cars
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/292991_madd20.html

By MATTHEW L. WALD
THE NEW YORK TIMES

WASHINGTON-- Authorities who for decades have supported deterrence as the primary tactic against drunken drivers say that approach is no longer working in the struggle to reduce the death toll, and they are proposing turning to technology -- alcohol-detection devices in every vehicle -- to address the problem.

In the first phase of the plan, Mothers Against Drunk Driving, backed by a national association of state highway officials and car manufacturers, will announce here today a campaign to change drunken-driving laws in 49 states to require that even first offenders be made to install a device that tests drivers and shuts down the car if it detects alcohol.

... Advocates of the alcohol-detection devices in vehicles said the next step would be a program to develop devices that would unobtrusively test any driver for alcohol and disable the vehicle. Automaker Saab and a medical equipment company already have devices that may be adapted for that job.

... Two companies recently have introduced products that hint at future strategies. Saab, which is owned by General Motors Corp., is testing in Sweden a breath analyzer that attaches to a key chain and will prevent a car from starting if it senses too much alcohol. Taxi companies and other fleet owners are the target market, the company said.

A New Mexico company, TruTouch Technologies, is modifying a technique developed for measuring blood chemistry in diabetics and using it to measure alcohol instead. The appliance shines a light through the skin on the forearm and analyzes what bounces back.
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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:02 AM
Response to Original message
1. Something like this is already used for repeat offenders (at least in my state)
Edited on Mon Nov-20-06 03:03 AM by Ignacio Upton
Only it detects alcohol before you try to start up the car. However, if you are not an offender, or you have a very low BAC (say you weight close to 200 lbs and are a male and only drank one or two beers) then something like this is bullshit. If I find this put on a car that I drive in the future, I'll disable it out of principle.
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janx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #1
27. In Colorado, first time offenders have the option of losing
their licenses or PAYING to have one of these installed in their cars.


$$$$$$
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alfredo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
44. So much for designated drivers. The drunks in your car will
disable it.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:14 AM
Response to Original message
2. This is going to be overtaked by events
We're getting very close to cars that can drive themselves. Mercedes already has cars that maintain proper distance behind cars, and will activate the brakes to keep you there. Radars are checking your blind spots for you now.

In twenty years, perhaps sooner, the luxury makers will have cars that drive themselves. This technology will trickle down to everyday cars, sooner if the government starts mandating it. By the time these alchohol sensors will be widespread, you will no longer have to drive drunk. You can just crawl into your car (back seat) and tell it to take you home.

In fact, you could probably SEND your car to pick up your drunk spouse and bring him or her home. Or to his sister's house if you're pissed at him! :-)

This could actually reduce both ownership and parking problems because the same car could be used multiple times per day, shuttling people back and forth as needed. And you could just send your car home until the movie was over or you were done clubbing..\
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:58 AM
Response to Reply #2
9. Damn good points...
Right up my alley.

Love it.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:07 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. Thanks. I think you and I were seperated at birth...
Imagine this as well. You can toss your kid in the car and tell it to take him or her to school, then return by itself. The car's "key" would be a thumbprint sensor, so he/she would not be able to change the car's destination, but you, as the parent, could log into the car's computer to keep track of how the car is progressing on its journey. In case of an emergency or accident, your kid or the car can contact you.

I can also imagine sending your car out for groceries or take-out dinner. You make your selection online and click "Buy", then send your car out to the store and open the trunk. The clerks at the store load the trunk with your groceries, and your car comes home.
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Mythsaje Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:20 AM
Response to Reply #10
11. Nice...
And yeah, very much within the realm of possibility.
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lostnfound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #2
13. I was going to say that it would probably save gas, through better driving,
until I got to your last paragraph.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #13
50. Well, if is electric, it's not a big deal
It will be an interesting event in our society. A husband and wife could take the same car to work even if they work different schedules. If the guy works 8-4 and the wife works 9-5, the car could go to husband's job, then the lady's job, then back to the guy's job and wait for him until 4, then pick up the wife before heading home.

I don't know how will it affect traffic patterns, though. On the plus side, there could be a traffic-mamagement database so that unmanned cars that are not in a hurry could be diverted to less-travelled routes, like city side streets. After all, a computer processor does not mind waiting at a bunch of stoplights. Oh, in the above scenario, the car would wait at the wife's job until about 11, then, when traffic was lighter, go to the guy's work and wait for him.
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #2
16. In 20 years we won't be driving too many cars
In about 20 years the world may be producing about 40-50 million barrels per day(if we are lucky) and many of these oil producing countries won't be exporting as much of their liquid gold as they do now, so just how people will be driving automobiles??
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BreweryYardRat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. Biodiesel, hydrogen, electric, etc...
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4dsc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. Bow to the technology god!!
If I am not mistaken, all your future cars will still rely upon OIL to build!! Or will you build them using Biodiesel, hydrogen, electricity??
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
38. DOOM! DOOM! DOOM! You PO Doomers need to lighten up.
You have a weak imagination if you think humans aren't smart enough to use technology to get around Peak Oil.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #16
37. Well, that's a seperate issue to be resolved
A modern coal-gasification plant can turn coal into gasonline, diesel. or heat energy (and thus steam to run a generator) while making carbon dioxide in pure enough quantities to be commercially recoverable, i.e., liquified and stored. We have plenty of coal here in the United States to fuel our economy for over a century, which would give us plenty of time to develop a variety of alternate fuel sources.

The following can be powered by wind turbines, ocean-wave generators, solar plants, or nuclear fusion power plants without making by-products, or by the clean-coal technology:

Ethanol distilled with electric heat instead of natural gas heat;
Fuel-cell cars that consume hyrogen derived from electralysis plants powered by the above means;
Plug-in electric cars with an auxillary generator for long-distance driving. The auxillary generator could burn gasoline, ethanol, diesel, biodiesel, natural gas, propane, methane, or even hydrogen, and the power grid of the US is powered by the above means and would charge the car emissions-free while in the garage.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #37
40. Don't try arguing with 4dsc, he is so convinced that Peak Oil will end civilization that...
...it's no use arguing with him. He's like the religious nuts who think the Second Comming is almost here.
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krispos42 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
45. Well, he has probable cause
There are hundreds of millions if not billions of automobiles out there. Here in the US we make or import about 16 million vehicles a year. Assuming no losses, it would take twenty years to completely replace the fleet of cars just in the United States with something that does not burn gasoline, and that is after we get the production lines up and running, and way after we figure out which way we are going with alternative motive sources of energy.

This is like the Y2k problem. We can see it coming, and know what the potential fallout is. Except that, unlike the Y2k problem, we can't just distribute a billion copies of a code through the Internet. Making cars is a huge undertaking. The design process takes a couple of years just for a regular car. Trying to mass-produce new technology would require the infrastucture of automotive suppliers to be massively rebuilt and reworked, with automotively-optimized lithium-ion batteries, fuel cells, relays, recharging equipment, and high-output, high-effiency, compact electric motors being built in the hundreds of millions a year.

And we don't know what the future is yet. Will the next step be hybrids? All-electrics? Electrics with an auxillary internal-combustion generator (my personal favorite)? Fuel cells? Hydrogen-burning internal-combustion engines? Replacing gasoline with E85 and optimizing the IC engines for the higher octane of ethanol? Biodiesel?

And cars are expensive. You can't just buy a new one on a whim. It's not a $50 or $100 purchase. It's 20 or 30 grand to replace your old car with a new one. And it's not like you bought a Betamax instead of a VHS machine twenty years ago, so you just toss the Betamax in the trash and get a VCR. If you buy an alternative-energy car, committ to paying $300 a month for five years, and the type you buy gets tossed in the ash-heap, well, now your just screwed. And the automaker is as well, because after one very expensive manufacturing and engineering retooling, they have to go through another one.

The automakers are quite happy with gasoline because they are not enthused about the risks of change. They will make the same profits per automobile whether it is an established gasoline-burner or some glitzy new alt-power machine.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #40
56. There is actual proof that civilization's end
No proof of any second coming's.

But we better figure it out. If we don't, and entropy actually beats us, it'll be ugly. So let's hope our technological solutions work, unfortunately it's the only chance we have.
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AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:13 PM
Response to Reply #2
36. Saw a commercial for a Lexus
That could damn near parallel-park by itself. Since I never learned to do that well, sounds great to me! (Not that I'll ever get to drive a Lexus.)
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #2
39. That sounds awesome.
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Strawman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #2
53. That kinda scares me
If the thing malfunctions as it's driving, you'd have no control of a two ton vehicle moving at high speed. I wonder how they'll get around that. I instinctively don't trust it.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. I think we should have lunatic sensors on all MADD members.
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Kiouni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:29 AM
Response to Original message
4. THe bio sensor takes 60 sec.
to check for alcohol in skin and who wants to sit there with their arm in a cuff for a minute every time they want to drive?

Seems unrealistic to put on in "every" vehicle. And each device is probably ridiculously expensive instead of making people pay extra why not take that money and have more free cab rides?
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provis99 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:30 AM
Response to Original message
5. when are MADD going to come out against
other forms of impaired driving? Like driving while eating a big mac, driving while smoking, driving while yapping on the cellphone, driving while chatting in the car, doing makeup, giving others the finger, or driving a BMW anytime? I'd like to see a device that works on all these assholes, who are just as dangerous.
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Divernan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. Not to mention elderly drivers whose physical reflexes are shot.
It is really frightening to see people using walkers, creeping along at a snail's pace, at the local mall/grocery store parking lots, plop themselves into the driver's seat of some big ass old Lincoln or Cadillac, and drive away. (They don't drive SUVs cause they can't climb up into the seats.)

You know that someone this physically frail does not have the coordination, speed or stength to safely drive their car. Then there are people whose eyesight has failed to the point they are legally blind, but they can renew their licenses by mail, with no testing. I stepped in and took the car away from my Mom when she was 86, when the neighbors told me she was ignoring the stop sign at the foot of her road - the older she got, the less patience she had. She's now 94 and still asking where her car is.

It's a terribly depressing thing for anyone in our mobile society to have to stop driving, especially since we have so little in the way of public transportation for people in the suburbs or countryside.
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. MADD is a Prohibitionist
It's a classic 'rebel without a cause'
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
30. Drunks Against Mothers Driving While Distracted by Yapping at their Kids!
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sarcasmo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
31. How about driving with the family dog in the drivers lap.
This one drives me crazy, as a driver who drives twelve hours a day I see it quite often.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
6. How many legit products have alcohol as an ingredient,,
and how many of those have alcohol as an ingredient in sufficient quantity to cause a false positive on a breathalyzer?
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Kiouni Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 04:31 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. More importantly
what if my parents sat in the back seat? The car wouldn't start for a month!
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longship Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:43 AM
Response to Original message
7. This is utter rubbish.
Complete and utter garbage. What the fuck good will this do?
Some people need to get a life.
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Trillo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
8. Hey, that's gonna make that company lots of money.
Imagine. A blood chemistry device in every car, that everyone who buys a car pays for, whether they drink or not.

Kaching.

Wanna drive somewhere, blow into the device. I wonder what else this version will test for? What will future versions test for?

Kaching.

"Presumed Innocent". Oh, that's so passé. Everyone knows that only applies in a courtroom, if you can afford $700 per hour for an attorney. Most people will get used to this device presuming they're drunk until proven otherwise.

Just think of the benefits, it'll "save lives." Think of "the children."

Kaching.



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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 06:51 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. What if the car is fueled by ethanol?
Will the motorist not be able to drive away from the pump? What if the passenger is drunk: will this "unobtrusive" technology pickup the passengers breath? This is a stupid use of technology.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
33. " Think of "the children." yes draft them
so they can KILL the islamic man,(and boy)
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Tandalayo_Scheisskopf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 08:44 AM
Response to Original message
17. The thing that a lot of people don't know about MADD:
MADD was started by Candy Lightner after her son was killed by a drunken driver. She was with the "company"(for that is what it is) for many years. Finally she was up for resigning her contract. She wanted $300,000/yr and a signing bonus(Nothing was mentioned about maintaining a .300 batting average). Well, over the years MADD had absorbed a lot of WCTU'ers. The people in the WCTU saw a real opportunity with MADD: a backdoor way to institute a lot of things that would be as close to prohibition as they could get. But they wanted complete control, so they forced Lightner out and got their people into positions of control.

I cannot speak to everywhere, but here in NJ, a lot, and I mean a LOT of bars, clubs and roadhouses have closed. Mostly, what you have in their place is chain restaurants. Because that is MADD's real aim: to stop the ingestion of ETOH alltogether.

Now, I do not drink. That was my choice, based upon the fact that my life is one hell of a lot better without me drinking ETOH. That said, that's just me. I do not see my issues as the issues of everyone, or anyone else.Just me. A hell of a lot of folks can drink responsibly. But at it's core, MADD doesn't want that.

It doesn't want anyone drinking anything alcoholic at all.

MADD is not going to stop until they get that, either, or as close as you can get. Besides, they make a lot of money and are one of the most inefficient administrators of their charitable dollars out there. Being MADD is a pretty big business, too.

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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. WCTU? ETOH?
Help.
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #18
22. ETOH = Ethyl Alcohol
Common abbreviation in the medical and legal fields, but not so common in everyday discourse. :)
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. WCTU = Woman's Christian Temperance Union
:)
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Ignacio Upton Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #24
28. That group is still around?
I thought Prohibition wiped that group out a long time ago.
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #28
48. Nope, they're still around.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. They are domestic thugs
Lightner herself was jailed for DUI
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mcscajun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #20
25. Do you have a link to back that up?
?
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AX10 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #17
26. Can you provide me with sources?
Thank you. I am against any type of overt authority, as you already may know. If MADD is doing anything of that sort, I would like to have the details so that I can debate some people (sheeple) I know who are apologists for the strong arm of authority.

Thanks for you consideration.

:hi:
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NashVegas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. It's Not Difficult
All you need to do is a Google search on 'MADD critics' and reams of info comes up. Highly enlightening.
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #17
47. Thanks for the information.
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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #17
59. if you believe alcoholfacts.org, anyhow
http://www.alcoholfacts.org/

Mothers Against Drunk Driving (MADD), Drug Abuse Resistance Education (DARE), Center for Science in the Public Interest (CSPI), Center for Substance Abuse Prevention (CSAP), National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse at Columbia University (CASA), Center on Alcohol Marketing and Youth (CAMY), Robert Wood Johnson Foundation (RWJF), American Medical Association (AMA), Henry Wechsler, and Marin Institute for the Prevention of Alcohol and other Drug Problems. Major problems with some of the activities of MADD, DARE, CASA, CSPI, CSAP, CAMY, RWJF, AMA, Henry Wechsler, and the Marin Institute are described.

Oddly enough, alcoholfacts.org isn't described. On its own website. Its name is strangely similar to alcoholfacts.com, an AA site, though. Gosh, I wonder whether that could be intentional.

Here we go, SamSpade to the rescue.

Registrant Name: David Hanson
Registrant Organization: State University of New York
Registrant Street1: Department of Sociology
Registrant Street2: 44 Pierrepont Avenue
Registrant Street3:
Registrant City: Potsdam
Registrant State/Province: NY
Registrant Postal Code: 13676
Registrant Country: US

http://www.reason.com/contrib/show/330.html
David J. Hanson is professor emeritus of sociology at the State University of New York at Potsdam.

Dr. Hanson seems to have made his own little industry out of his own views on the matter. And he publishes in Reason magazine. 'Nuff said.

But alcoholfacts.org's version of Lightner's departure seems to differ somewhat from yours:
Even its founding president has left MADD disillusioned as the organization has changed its focus.

And it cites the Center for Consumer Freedom, hahaha:
http://www.consumerfreedom.com/
The Center for Consumer Freedom is a nonprofit coalition of restaurants, food companies, and consumers working together to promote personal responsibility and protect consumer choices.

The growing cabal of "food cops," health care enforcers, militant activists, meddling bureaucrats, and violent radicals who think they know "what's best for you" are pushing against our basic freedoms. We're here to push back.

Freedom for profit. Lordy, only in the bloody U S of A, I swear.


It doesn't want anyone drinking anything alcoholic at all.

So? There are a lot of things I don't want anyone doing, and sometimes I join groups (like political parties) that agree with me. Freedom, eh?








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iverglas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #17
60. the poor old WCTU ... that foremother of modern feminism
http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/CASAE/cnf2002/2002_Papers/lander2002w.pdf

Women's Ways of Protesting:
Activism, Feminism, or Witnessing Across Separate Spheres?
Dorothy A. Lander
St. Francis Xavier University

Abstract: The ways of women’s resistance at different historical moments bear witness to the embodied specificity of protest and the contradiction of private and public spheres. As a witness, my research testimony uses four interpretive frames—popular education; civil society; performance; and carnival—to explore multiple meanings of protest.

... The connection between witnessing and social gospel in the WCTU women drew me to Roper-Huilman’s (1999) elaboration of “witnessing” as a qualitative research method. ...

Wary of reproducing the hegemonic texts of Protestant, white, middle-class, Euro-American ways of witnessing and reifying the binary of public and private spheres, I take up Ropers-Huilman’s (1999) elaboration of witnessing as a qualitative research method for crossing borders and occupying complex intersections of knowledge and notions of agency:

Further, these obligations propose the necessity of positioning ourselves in our work, . . . by telling others about our experiences and perspectives, while also listening to the interpretations of other participants. . . . Witnessing carries with it a responsibility to explore multiple meanings of equity and care while acting to promote our situational understandings of those concepts. (p. 24).

The social gospel, not a particularly influential force in the US, shaped much of modern Canada. It got us universal health care (through the person of Tommy Douglas, the Baptist preacher who was Premier of Saskatchewan and leader of the social-democrat NDP, and grandfather of Kiefer Sutherland), and things like the current campaign by Canadian churches, and especially the United Church of Canada, the major practitioner of the social gospel in its several decades of history, around the right of everyone in the world to clean, free drinking water.

But back to the WCTU, itself a powerful influence for reforms in the interests of women, children, workers, the poor ... there's so much some people need to learn ...

http://www.geocities.com/~svpress/articles/fwillard.html
Frances Willard:
America's Forgotten Feminist
(1839-1898)
by Faith Martin

Leading Feminist of the Nineteenth Century

In the Capitol in Washington, D. C., each state is represented by a statue of its most honored citizen. Of all the fifty states only Illinois, the Land of Lincoln, is represented by a woman. Her name is Frances Willard. "Who is she?" you ask.

... How could anyone drop completely from the consciousness of a nation after having been so famous during her lifetime? Bordin argues that the fortunes of the temperance movement are to blame.

... The WCTU was founded in 1874 in response to widespread concern that American society was breaking down. Alcohol abuse was rampant. There were no legal limits on the alcoholic content of whisky, and it was often lethal. The problem of a man drinking his paycheck at the tavern before going home was common. A wife had no legal right to her husband's paycheck, and tavern owners were not inclined to stop serving husbands. At the same time, there were no laws protecting wives from physical abuse. Neither was there public welfare to support starving women and children--of which there were many.

... Nothing concerning women escaped Willard's attention. She campaigned for change in prostitution laws, attacking grievous situations that were allowed to flourish. Prostitution in some lumber camps amounted to child slavery. The age of consent in twenty states was a mere ten years of age, and in one it was seven. ...

On the subject of rape, Willard wrote, "... When we reflect that in Massachusetts and Vermont it is a greater crime to steal a cow than to abduct and <rape> a girl, and that in Illinois <rape> is not considered a crime, it is a marvel not to be explained that we go the even tenor of our way, too delicate, too refined, too prudish to make any allusion to these awful facts, much less take up arms against these awful crimes. We have been the victims of conventional cowardice too long."

... In 1886, Willard distributed an address to "Working Men and Women--Brothers and Sisters of a Common Hope." It commended the Knights of Labor, the leading labor group of the time, for its broad platform of mutual help "which recognizes neither sex, race, nor creed." It also praised their tendency to elevate women industrially by claiming "equal pay for equal work."

... By the time Willard assumed the presidency of the WCTU, she was well known as a powerful advocate of women's suffrage ...


So much history to learn, so many distortions of history to wade through.


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EnviroBat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 10:29 AM
Response to Original message
23. DAMM...
Drivers Against Mothers in Minivans...

3,,2,,1 we have ignition...
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mitchleary Donating Member (271 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
34. MADD can go to HELL
Where were they when Bush/ Cheney was running for the White House with three DUIs between them? I did not hear a peep.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #34
43. Great point! I never understood why this was not a bigger issue
than say, a BJ in the Oval Office, or getting two purple hearts and having somebody suggest they were for scratches.

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tabasco Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #43
49. Good question. Why is consensual sex between adults so
much worse than a criminal record? Of course, we know the answer.

IOKIYAAR. Republican voters, or a vast amount of them, are loyal to their party, not their Nation. For them,, it's ok if you're a republican. Of course, Bush told the fundies he was "born again", and the idiots believed him, so that makes everything fine. I guess the fundies are ready to release all the prisoners in jail who say they are "born again."
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jmowreader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
35. MADD was instrumental in running off Judge Ed Donaldson here
I wrote about this District Court judge race before the election. The sitting judge was Ed Donaldson, who was okay. He had about a 75-percent conviction rate on DUIs, which is pretty good for this town--the Fayetteville PD has very rapid turnover because they have a great training program for new officers but one of the lowest payscales in the state, so a cop will work for the Fayetteville PD for a couple of years then get snapped up by better-paying PDs.

We also used to have this real shark of a DUI defense lawyer named David Hasty. This fucking guy was renowned throughout the state for being able to get you off no matter how fucked up you were.

Put the two together and you're looking at one of the worst DUI conviction rates in the state.

For some fucking reason, MADD endorsed David Hasty to run against Ed Donaldson, and Hasty won.

Now let me ask you something: if you were in charge of the MADD program and you decided to unseat you a judge, would you pick the number-one DUI defense lawyer in the whole state to be your candidate?
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:33 PM
Response to Original message
41. MADD are a much of nanny-statist culture warriors, they can go fuck themselves.
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Megahurtz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 06:02 PM
Response to Reply #41
57. Perfect Description!
That's what I was thinking. Fuck MADD!:grr:
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Beacho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 02:38 PM
Response to Original message
42. what part of 'prior restraint' don't these control freaks not understand?
These are the people that support checkpoints, do they not?
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Porcupine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-20-06 06:30 PM
Response to Original message
46. Lets install them on the vehicles of officeholders FIRST
Then every vehicle of every cop, sherriff, judge and district attorny. Then all of the prison guards and probation officers.

After that. Sure lets put them on the rest of our cars.
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
51. Why wouldn't the drunk ask a sober person to start the car?
Can the sensor tell who's starting the car?

re: drunk driving: Years ago (1981) I visited East Germany when it was still communist.
A friend and I drank alot one afternoon. In the evening I asked him for a ride to the train station.
He looked at me as if I was insane.
The penalty for any detectable amount of alcohol was prison and license revocation for life.

I was amazed. Tough stuff. They considered DWI an affront to the society.
Needless to say, DWI was not an issue in East Germany.

After unification DWI became a problem:

"The former East Germany prohibited driving under the influence of any alcohol (BAC = .0%). After the German unification, the zero-BAC law remained in effect until December 31, 1992, after which the .08% law came into effect.
Despite the fact that the .08 law did not come into effect until 1992, the 1990 unification saw a sharp increase in crash rates in the former East Germany."

http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/MISC/driving/s15p4.htm
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Alexander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
52. MADD's true goal is to ban alcohol, Prohibition-style.
I remember reading a statement from their current president, regarding parties.

Lots of parents allow their children & friends to have parties with alcohol at home, providing the keys are taken away first, and it's supervised. To me, it makes tons of sense - those underage kids are going to party anyway, so you might as well keep them off the roads.

MADD's president, in response, was not happy, saying it taught these kids that breaking the law was OK. Completely ignoring the fact that these actions prevent drunk driving.

Fuck MADD. They aren't interested in preventing drunk driving anymore. They just don't want people drinking alcohol.
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williesgirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
54. I'm against driving w/any drinks, but this is BULLSHIT. How about red meat etc, where do we stop?
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FogerRox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 05:22 PM
Response to Original message
55. MADD & SADD are nuts
25 yrs ago there was a backlash against Drunk driving, drinking ages were raised, penalties increased etc. % of accidents involving drinking went down massivly.

20 years later these groups are meaningless, yet they strive to lobby for more restrictions, strive for the attention they had 20 yrs ago.

The most meaningfull work that can be done is to bring attention to drunk driving amoungst the young, as they enter the driving pool.

The numbers are clear, one year reductions in Drunk driving deaths were as high as 16%, 25 yrs ago. Then in proceeding yrs the one yr reductions petered out to say... 1%.

There used to be 10's of thousands of DWI's in a given state. DWI amoungst the general population is no longer the massive problem it was 25 yrs ago, yet MADD seems to think increasingly severe restrictions can solve what little of the problem still exists.

MADD helped bring awareness to this problem 25 years ago. Their work was righteous. Now they support police state tactics.
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wuushew Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-21-06 07:02 PM
Response to Original message
58. I have ZERO respect for drunk drivers
If made cheap enough a device like this would not differ from seat belts or airbag requirements now made of new cars.

You may own your car but the State is the ultimate arbiter of your behavior and the operating condition of that vehicle while on public roads.
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