ABC News: Students Dropping Out of High School Reaches Epidemic Levels

[krkaufman]

Students Dropping Out of High School Reaches Epidemic Levels
In Some Cities, Half of All Students Quitting School
By PIERRE THOMAS and JACK DATE

Nov. 20, 2006 — - In several of the largest school systems across the country -- from Baltimore to Cleveland to Atlanta and Oakland, Calif. -- half of the students are dropping out. ... And the problem is not only in the big cities.
...
A recent study by the Department of Education found that 31 percent of American students were dropping out or failing to graduate in the nation's largest 100 public school districts.
...
And why is a high school diploma so important?
...
High school dropouts have a life span that is nine years shorter than people who graduate.

Dropouts are more likely to face poverty, according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

Typically high school dropouts earn $19,000 a year. High school graduates earn $28,000 a year on average.

If you drop out of high school, your chances of running afoul of the law increase. ... Nationally, 68 percent of state prison inmates are dropouts.

My favorite bit from the article...

Sheriff Jerry Brogdon of Berrien County, Ga.,... said that "81.2 percent of the inmates we have in here today is high school dropouts."

[zanne]

1. I don't understand what makes kids drop out.

Even if they don't like school, what kind of life is it when you have to work in a fast food joint? I don't get it.

[Horse with no Name]

3. In Texas

A kid can have straight A's and not pass the TAAS test and will fail.
My guess is that a great deal of the increased drop-out rates are due to these standardized tests.

[Judi Lynn]

25. There's probably a motive behind the move to the standardized tests,

and the drop outs.

Provides a right-wing war-loving pResident with a whole lot more "voluntary" soldiers.

[Horse with no Name]

29. and a move to vouchers

which is what they really want.

[fidgeting wildly]

130. Exactamundo.

My 18-year-old stepbrother dropped out of high school earlier this year, got his GED and joined the Army. He leaves for Iraq in February.

Oh how I wanted to wring his little neck! He played right into the government's hands.

[JoFerret]

134. Of course there is

Just think of the tax policy that funnels money to the rich. the educational policy has the same effect - funnels resources/ education to the already rich minority at the expense of everyone else . And all under the guise of promoting education for all.
It is NOT accidental.

[earthside]

34. NCLB Testing - Yeah!

The effect of these standardized, 'No Child Left Behind' tests are devastating to the morale of children and parents. They have become quite intensive and time consuming -- teachers, parents, kids all hate them. But McGraw Hill (manufacturer of most of the tests and the related 'teaching' paraphernalia) and most elected legislators love them (proves "accountablility).

On top of this add a bleak job market for the long term -- high schools kids aren't stupid, they know about "outsourcing" and the problem of "illegal immigrants" squeezing them into low wage jobs. If they consider going to college or trade school, just a cursory investigation tells them that the costs are becoming increasingly outrageous.

Finally, I know folks don't want to hear this, but the popular culture is not very friendly to being well educated or 'smart'. The great new opiate for the young are video games -- no kidding. Why worry about dealing with reality when you can escape for hours and hours and hours into a world of adventure and violence.

I am not surprised in the slightest that high school dropout rates are climbing. For the majority of young people today, the future does not look very promising.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

94. You are so right about the pop culture!

It has always been rather dumb, making fun of intellectuals and the like, but now it's aggressively dumb.

Young men, in particular, are being encouraged to think that reading, the arts, science, and education in general are for loseres. Sounds stupid and is stupid, but this is what I overhear.

[krkaufman]

111. Yes, we're a long way from the great challenges posed to us ...

... by Kennedy in the 60s. We've been glorifying ignorance for decades, now, and the momentum will be difficult to change (by definition).

[LeighAnn]

123. Yeah? Well School is, like, totally boring

My teenage neice and nephew are so not into it.

[lovuian]

83. Large classrooms and the testing

An uneducated population is a bad thing

They have been dumbing down our children

[NOLADEM]

96. Bullshit.

If a student gets straight A's in his class and fails the TAAS, his teachers should have their genitals cut off. The test didn't fail. A fraudulent school giving a fake education and fake grades are to blame there.

You 'case' is an anachronism. I have seen the TAAS and taken it. The TAAS is BASIC SKILLS, and I mean BASIC. If you can wipe your ass, you can pass the TAAS. Two plus two. Which word is the verb in the following sentance. When you drop an apple, it falls up or down. EASY shit. If you can't pass it, you should NOT be allowed to drive, operate heavy machinery or go near water without a life jacket already on.

Basically, what we have to realize is that High School SUCKS as an experience for many people and if they are not taught well in a human manner and have something to look forward to if they graduate, then rates will continue to fall.

Much of our culture has embraced a 'fuck the man' attitude, and some parents even teach it to their children. This results in kids seeing the system as the enemy, and their ability to escape it becomes a badge of honor.

Tests aren't doing this. Parents are. Parents that are overworked, too young or too uneducated to properly care for their children. And since uneducated people have more children on average than more educated people, the problem grows like cancer. Sadly, one of the results of a very rich society that can provide the essentials to most everyone is that many will see the bar for squeaking by drop and they follow it with their performance in life.

The solution? Better wages, lower class sizes, universal college access, and STRICT parental consequences for children who are not meeting basic goals. Truancy penalties for parents, for example, work very well.

We must show children that graduating from High School opens up opportunities for you that failing to graduate closes. Right now, you can get a GED and go get most any job a simple high school graduate can get. So, many kids want to go have fun now and then take the GED later. We must make the GED MUCH, MUCH harder and take MUCH more class time, so the alternative isn't so attractive to kids.

Lastly, let's offer a $1000 tax credit to graduates that meet certain target demos to increase graduation. That's a lot of money for a kid. Maybe the $1000 graduation gift from Uncle Sam might motivate the generation that is obsessed with money. And it would be a good investment for the taxpayers by providing a better income and lower liklihood the person would end up incarcerated.

[krkaufman]

112. Excellent rant.

I like the graduation bonus, and the fact that you tried to cost-justify it.

[springhill]

135. Excuse me...........

but my son takes the WASL standardized test every single year now. And it is hard. Look up some of the sample questions. It would challenge many an adult who has not been in school for awhile. Answers not only have to be correct, but every answer needs to be explained. Not easy at all. The kids here in Washington State used to only have to take it certain years throughout school, now it is EVERY single year. Talk about some stressed out kids and teachers.

[Bubba Zanetti]

4. they drop out because it is not relavant to their immediate lives...

.... they can get a fast food job at $10 - $12 an hour, live at home and make a car payment. They have money for mp3 players, cell phone bills, etc.

What else does a 16 year old need?

Really, it's a reflection of our wealth, even though they are generally being carried by their parents housing wise.

[grasswire]

40. fast food at 10-12 dollars?

where do you live, anyhoo?

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

63. Which fast food joints pay that kind of money?

I want to know cause I'm being completely serious here I will go and apply. Here in Indiana if you can even find a fast food place that will hire a US Citizen it's like 5.50 an hour and part time.

[Xithras]

72. SF Bay Area, NYC, among others.

Your high cost of living heavily urbanized areas tend to pay a bit more because the cost of living is so high in those areas. $12 an hour to work at a KFC in San Francisco may sound like a lot, but it isn't even going to touch the $1500 a month you'll spend on a 1 bedroom apartment. You're still poor at the end of the day.

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

98. Nope won't be moving to any of those places

I have a friend who lives in LA and she recently bought a new house (old but new to her), a half million dollars for a 3 bedroom house that would be 90k in Indianapolis. I don't know how people in california get by even if with housing at those cost.

[Megahurtz]

89. Reflection of our Wealth???

:wtf:

It's more like a reflection of poverty. Nice to know you're living large.

[greyl]

7. I think I do. Not enough good reason to stay.

Our school system's main purpose has become keeping children out of the job market.
Even high school graduates must usually take entry level jobs.

Mostly though, becoming a cog in the wheels of an unfullfilling, dying system isn't very attractive to many humans.

[geomon666]

9. As a highschool dropout,

I would rather slice my own neck open then to ever go back to high school. That's just my personal experience with high school, it was hell.

[zanne]

Was it a social hell?

Just trying to understand. I know some kids feel ostracized in high school. Or was it grades?

[geomon666]

104. Partly social.

I can't really say what it was exactly, everything about high school bothered me.

[Lorien]

18. But it's only four years of hell

I hated high school as well; I had a facial deformity and was speech impaired, and kids are merciless when you don't fit in.BUT, it's only four years, then you move on. Like a root canal,the long term gain generally outweighs the short term pain.

[pitohui]

22. you don't move on if you are shot

you underestimate the amt of violence in today's schools and coming and going to today's schools

i was an FLK as well, i put a stop to a lot of the crap by beating the crap out of the lead bully, today, i would be expelled merely for defending myself, so i would be on the "drop out" list for that reason alone and would not even have progressed to high school

even back in the way back, my sister and her teacher were shot at driving toward their school, and we don't seem to have cut back on the number of guns carried by young people since those days

in any case, as i say in paragraph 2, don't kid yourself that all of these drop outs are dropping out voluntarily, they have been pushed out

no teacher wants any no-hoper dragging down the all-important scores for her class room

[Porcupine]

61. Yep, HS dropout, 1150 SAT scores here.

High school was a living hell of anti-intellectualism. It was ok to get good grades but don't get caught thinking about the material if you expect to have a social life.

I now live in a college town. I spend a lot of time around college students. They never, ever talk about their classes. They truly have no interest aside from the degree. Conversation topics range from beer to sex to beer. Guest lectures on campus are dominated by people over 40 with plenty of empty seats.

Americans are living in a society that hates thinking people. Why should they go to school?

[Tight_rope]

85. "Americans are living in a society that hates thinking people."

You are so right. :thumbsup:

[rmgarrette64]

95. My husband is a high school dropout

He dropped out of high school to go on to college, and then got a doctorate. I find this amusing in light of an earlier comment blaming the attraction of video games for many young people dropping out - he makes video games now, you see.

For myself, I graduated college before moving here, when I lived in the Phillipines. I am astonished at just how much Americans value and respect education. Parties and social gatherings continue to be difficult for me due to the sheer range of topics that are considered part of casual conversation. It continues to astonish me, and it is something I love about this country.

I am not so sure why there are so many dropouts. I teach 2nd grade in a Catholic school here in Los Angeles. The children I deal with are generally bright and friendly (OK, a few problems, but only a few each year.) This seems to remain true even as they proceed to the upper grades. Maybe this varies a lot based on family history, I'm actually outside LA, in a reasonably well off area.

Is this, maybe, a symptom of the "two Americas?"

It just seems so far outside of what I see every day.

R. Garrett

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

99. Have you been spying on my campus

[JVS]

47. Maybe they see examples of HS graduates who have to work in fast food joints

The piece of paper might be necessary to get a better job, but it doesn't guarantee it.

[DumpDavisHogg]

59. In Kentucky, it could be a lot of things

I won't speak for the other states, but Kentucky pretty much lacks a public education system. First off, some school systems in Kentucky actually condone bullying. Secondly, if you suffer from a learning disability like dyslexia, the school will refuse to make accommodations and likely bar you from regular schools altogether.

Of course the local dinosaur media blames the students, when it's the schools' fault.

[DumpDavisHogg]

60. Also in Kentucky, standardized testing is the state religion n/t

[shanti]

79. not motivated

and the parent(s) can't motivate them. my son (a student-athlete) has a couple of friends who have basically dropped out of school. they are all 16, all popular kids. one of the boys was a promising and talented football player, but due to his poor grades, he was declared ineligible. so what does he do this year? he decides on independent study. that didn't last long because he now attends continuation school. he also works FULL TIME. i have no doubt in my mind that he will end up dropping out. the other boy is his best friend and he has also dropped out and works fulltime. i believe that they will either end up in prison or enter the military. what other options are there for them? it's very sad....:(

[Megahurtz]

88. If their parents have no money for their College education

they'll be working in a fast food joint anyway.
Do you think that a High School diploma is going to get them a high paying job?

[fizzgig]

106. my parents didn't have the money for my college education

that is not an excuse to drop out of high school.

[pnwmom]

109. In WA, 40% of the juniors haven't passed the state math test yet.

And if they don't pass all the tests -- unless the rules change -- they won't graduate.

[JoFerret]

133. Traditional schooling is becoming increasingly irrelevant

- is one of several factors.

[Jackpine Radical]

2. Is our sheriffs learning?

Sheriff Jerry Brogdon of Berrien County, Ga.,... said that "81.2 percent of the inmates we have in here today is high school dropouts."

[dogfacedboy]

81. If he had just said

"inmate population", instead of "inmates", he would have been correct.

[maryallen]

93. George W. Bush: "Is our children learning?" (direct quote)

If it's good enough for a president, then it must be good enough for a sheriff ...

[Dora]

5. Well, goddammit, somebody TEST THOSE KIDS!!!

:sarcasm:

Hmmm. I wonder there is a corrlation between increased standardized testing and the increase in dropout rates?

I know what I think, but if somebody has any statistics, I could stand to be better informed.

These kids were in the seventh grade in 2000. Six years of the Bush administration and No Child Left Behind has absolutely DESTROYED a generation of minds.

[Demeter]

6. I Think It Must Be Because High Schools Are So Dangerous

I would be mortally afraid in these mega-schools with the mega-pressures of overcrowding and inadequate resources that years of GOP budget cutting have produced of the once fine public schools.

Michigan groans under the burden of 12 years of GOP misrule, and in 4 years our dear Governor Granholm has only begun to staunch the bleeding, while Michigan continues to suffer under the roaring Bush economy.

[OzarkDem]

8. Nothing for them to enjoy there

Budget cuts mean schools have gotten rid of many of the extracurricular activities that kids enjoy. Sports are reserved only for the kids whose fanatical parents began grooming them to play professional in pre-school. Most schools don't even have phys ed classes anymore.

Quality of educators has dropped and their morale and attitude is poor. Most blame students and parents first and shift most teaching duties to parents at home. Most of the educators I see today are focused primarily on getting through the day and reaching retirement, nothing more.

As my youngest nears graduation, I can't begin to express my relief that our journey is nearly complete. My oldest, who struggled to graduate from high school now regularly makes the Deans List in college.

[KansDem]

19. My 14-year-old daughter, who has played violin for 5 years...

...has an opportunity to go to Boston next April on a high-school orchestra tour. They will stay 4 days and 3 nights and have the chance to perform in a competition with other high-school orchestras. The only problem: each student must pony up $1,000! The orchestra kids are having fund raisers: so far we've sold geraniums and now tins of popcorn. But so far my daughter has only raised about $100. And the money is due by February.

I don't think we can come up with the remaining $900 plus pocket money for her to go. We are seriously considering having her bypass this trip, which will no doubt prove embarrassing to her as her friends all go and she stays behind.

She is now talking about dropping out of orchestra...

[LibDemAlways]

38. That's a damn shame.

Here in my district in California there is a Spring Break trip to Washington DC for 8th graders. The cost is $1200.00 and there are no fund raisers. So, the only kids who get to go are those whose parents can afford it. Very elitist and leaves many kids behind.

[KansDem]

50. Tell me about it!

My daughter's high school is composed of a wide gamut of wealthy families and working, often single parent families. And the orchestra boosters are mainly comprised of parents of many of the wealthy families. So when they plan this kind of tour, they "forget" that many families simply can't afford it. And when we are given the options of selling geraniums or tins of popcorn, they "forget" that many of us work with other individuals who can't purchase these items more than once. I sold a few geraniums where I work, mostly to co-workers who bought them because they were for a fund raiser. But now I'm suppose to sell $25 tins of popcorn (the student only gets $10 of that to boot). I don't think so! You can go to the well only so many times, and nobody I work with can afford a $25 tin of popcorn. The geraniums at $5 a piece were more affordable, but $25? It's not like the father is a doctor or lawyer or CEO and go into his practice or office and get several of his fellow doctors or lawyers or CEOs to pony up a donation. And even if they didn't get the full amount to pay for the trip, so what? They'll just reach for their change purse and pull out the needed $1,000.

Both my wife and I are furious about this. We simply cannot cough up $1,000 for our daughter to participate, so our only option if we don't raise the remaining $900 is to have our daughter miss the trip. Talk about "class warfare:" this is one way of weeding out the "undesirables" from school programs.

[LibDemAlways]

70. I hate those kinds of overpriced fund raisers where you

have to hawk $25 tins of popcorn. It's embarrassing to even ask people.

My daughter's school raises funds for itself (California schools are horribly underfunded)with a magazine drive at the beginning of each school year. The subscriptions cost more than if you subscribed directly, but they offer the kids all kinds of "incentives" depending on sales volume. Kids who sell 35 subscriptions get to go in a hummer limo to Hard Rock Cafe for lunch. Well, kids whose parents are self-employed and have businesses with waiting rooms can subscribe to a bunch of magazines and write off the cost. The rest of the kids who don't have that advantage get to watch the others pull away in the limo. It's just another class thing.

Have you addressed the school principal with your concerns? He/She needs to be made aware of your feelings about this.

[Indy_Dem_Defender]

100. Geese, $25 dollars for a tin of popcorn

that cost $5 Dollars! Grade schooler down the road came by with one of those booklets of stuff about a month ago, All I could afford was a 3 oz bag of chocolate covered pretzels, they where the cheapest thing in th book for $5 dollars.

[tblue37]

101. Where in Kansas are you? (I am in Lawrence.)--eom

[redwitch]

124. Do you have a rotary, Elks or other organization in your town?

There are ways to raise the money! Please don't give up! Also, many schools have "slush" funds for students who need assistance.

[LanternWaste]

136. That's horrible!

That's horrible! It was the extra-curricular activities in High School (marching & symphonc bands and drama) that kept me motivated.

Even if she misses the trip, please do everything you can to prevent her from quitting orchestra.

[jobycom]

10. The sheriff is grammatically correct, what's your issue with him?

"81.2 percent... is high school dropouts" is perfectly acceptable, if you assume the verb refers to "percent" and not the object of the prepositional phrase, "inmates." You could make an argument for either form being correct.

[pitohui]

11. even college graduates don't know grammar

but that doesn't stop them playing english teacher on the fabulous internets :evilgrin:

[rock]

20. Poor diction, not bad grammar

[buddysmellgood]

28. Regardless, I'll bet he's a fine cop.

[jobycom]

32. Probably so.

:)

[nealmhughes]

36. Yes, the entire subject of the sentence is "81% of the inmates"

the verb is the present singular simple present tense form of "to be" and that is "is."

Consider "81% of a million dollars is still a lot of money!" vice
"81% of a million dollars are a still lot of money!"

The subject is a collective noun used in a sigular context.

In US English we say "The firm is expanding," while the Brits say "The firm are expanding."

The fact that the subject noun phrase has a preposition in it that is plural is what throws one off at first view. A careful parsing is required to go past the plural "inmates" to see that it is a collective, a fraction of the inmates who are being described in terms of the fraction in order to get the subject of the sentence.

Hey, I just edited a 700 pp MS for an academic author and cut it to 450 pp and it is in LSU Press editing shop for additional chopping/review right now...so if I'm being pedantic, you ought to have heard all my verbage on the proper use of the subjunctive mood in English. Be I only able to continue!

[NorthernSpy]

74. Not so! '50% of these dogs ARE Labs' versus '50% of these dogs IS Lab'

Consider "81% of a million dollars is still a lot of money!" vice
"81% of a million dollars are a still lot of money!"

Your example muddies the waters, because "a lot of money" is singular, whereas the sheriff used another plural ("high school dropouts").

Consider:

"Fifty percent of the puppies are Labs" and "fifty percent of the puppies is Lab" are both correct English, but they do NOT mean the same thing. The first is talking percentages of numbers (half of the puppies in this group are Labs), and second is talking percentages of amount (in this case, the amount of Lab ancestry of this litter of hybrid puppies).

It's kind of like the 'fewer peas, less soup' rule.

The sheriff meant to talk about numbers, not amount.


So the OP is correct.



(edit: supplied missing word "of")

[nealmhughes]

103. Actually, it was a joke about pedantry!

:-) :)

I was just trying to show how "muddy" English can become and the "overcorrection" that people tend to do.

I still hate the sound of the English construction "The band have left the building!" at the end of a concert, though!

Let us always recall Churchill on the ending of sentence with a preposition: "This is an example of a sentence for which I cannot stand"!

[NashVegas]

118. Inmates / Dropouts ARE - Inmate Population IS

I think the OP is corrent.

[NorthernSpy]

77. no, the sheriff's not grammatically correct, but we don't hold that against him...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2625108&mesg_id=2625802

The percent in this case is refers to a percentage of a number, not a percentage of an amount.

I certainly don't mean to pick on the sheriff, mind you. Just discussing a point of grammar, that's all.

[bluestateguy]

12. "They should enlist in the military. They were never going to amount to anything anyway"

This is an actual quote told to me by a neo-conservative two years ago.

[Virginia Dare]

15. They just see them as cannon fodder...n/t

[AngryAmish]

132. Hard to get in the military w/o HS diploma

[whistle]

13. No child left behind = minority culling

[theophilus]

14. Truly sad and shows the utter failure of this maladministration.

I don't think that there are one or two clear reasons. It is a complex issue but I think it could be boiled down, in concept, to a lack of hope. Our culture is broken and so is our economy. There is plenty of blame to go around. Until a true caring for all people is reflected in our political ideology then we are all screwn.

Jobs need to be created that will allow more parental support for their children and not just an empty home to come back to after school. Work it out however you feel best. Kids need lots of support to be successful in school in the best of times.

NCLB is a horrid mistake. There need to be many more qualified teachers earning higher salaries and presiding over classes of about fifteen students. The students need to be taught how to think and given some uplifting concepts to think about. Compassion and education need to be placed on a pedestal and greed and violence need to be kicked to the curb. Tribal issues need to come to the forefront. We must all work together to save our species from the climatalogical meltdown. Now is not soon enough.

Our system is broken. It won't be a fast or easy fix but it is doable.

Change WILL happen. Let's make it happen for the best.

[greyl]

16. It's received wisdom that schooling is an unquestionable necessity for humans.

How do you spot one of Mother Culture's Big Lies? Are there patterns, clues, signs you look for?

...and the response:
The telltale sign of Mother Culture's lies is that they don't make sense. This isn't much help, however, since the people of our culture are so used to things that don't make sense. Received wisdom is wisdom that by definition goes unexamined. You might say that my "method" for exposing Mother Culture's lies is to be alert to received wisdom; notions that are accepted without question almost always turn out to be lies.
..............
It's received wisdom that schooling is an unquestionable -- almost divinely-mandated -- necessity for humans. In THE HOLY, part of the reason David Kennesey sets out on his voyage of discovery is his realization that the schools exist to persuade us that every road leads to the marketplace, that life is entirely about getting jobs, getting ahead, making money. He rejects this teaching and seeks a road for himself that is not found on any of our cultural maps.

I have been disappointed in what 'school' did for me, and therefore decided to homeschool my two boys. I am a mother of two boys ages 4 1/2 and 7. I have been homeschooling for the last three years. You said in MY ISHMAEL that homeschooling was a certainly a lesser evil. Is there an alternative to the "lesser evil" of home schooling?

...and the response:
What I meant by this in MY ISHMAEL is that the best system that is known is the one practiced among humans for three million years with great success for all, in which children were allowed the freedom of the tribe and could go anywhere and learn whatever they wanted, whenever they wanted. In Houston a few years ago, one teacher started an experimental program based on this idea. It was so successful (and such a life-changing experience for the students involved) that it aroused the ire and envy of all the other teachers, and it was ended after its first year. In our society as it's presently organized it wouldn't be possible for an individual parent to follow this plan, so even if it's only a "lesser evil," home schooling is the best alternative available to you.

more:
http://www.ishmael.org/Interaction/QandA/list.cfm

food for thought

[jobycom]

23. Complete nonsense

First, there has never been a culture that made any significant advances in science, technology, medicine, mathematics, or any other discipline that did not have some form of educational system that involved students going out of the home to learn. Societies that have relied on parents or guardians alone to educate their children are primitive at worst, subsistence at best. It might be a great way to impart knowledge about agricultural techniques or smithing trades (even then the student usually left home to learn with a master).

Second, while no doubt some parents would be great teachers, and while some people may learn perfectly well outside of schools in some form of "wander the world and pick up knowledge" scheme, most parents aren't, and most people won't.

Schools are the access for most people to learn how to live in society. Not, as the quotes above claim, just in the fields of earning a living, but in any field in which they can earn a living. Education of course encompasses more than what is learned in school, and our schooling system now does put more of an emphasis on training workers than on educating people. But that's the school system that's broken, not the concept of school.

People who want to do more in life or other in life than what their parents did necessarily have to get an education somewhere. Exceptional learners can pick it up here and there, wandering, learning at their own pace. Most can't. Most get bored. I have no idea what this Houston experiment mentioned was about, or if it even existed, frankly, but if it did, the students who were going through it had presumably been schooled enough to take advantage of it in the first place.

Some form of organized education is the best way to give the majority an opportunity to not only exceed what their parents did, but also cover a wide range of ideas and possibilities to see what they really do want to pursue.

And the aspect of schools that includes training people for future work possibilities shouldn't be scoffed at. Of course that's a primary goal of schooling--again, to make students more capable of surviving once they leave home. But it also serves society well. It gives students more exposure to ideas their parents and friends can't give them, and it creates awareness of where they can even wander to chase their education after schooling. I grew up in rural, coastal Mississippi. My father was a mechanic and electrician. If he had taught me, that's all I would have been. If I had wandered around to find my education, my choices would have been limited to something along those lines, or to shrimper. School showed me I could leave, I could learn more. It allowed me to reach beyond my environment.

School is not some unquestioned, unnecessary institution that traps people into prescribed roles. It's the opposite of that. Home schooling is that, for most kids. The failure is not the concept of school (that's a very conservative-based argument), it's the specific way we construct our schools now. That needs to be fixed, not eliminated.

[greyl]

39. You're speaking as an advocate of the culture you were born into.

Correct?
It's nothing to be ashamed of because "our" World History books are really only speaking of the history of civilization, not of humanity. Humans weren't born civilization builders, contrary to religious texts.
Who do you think invented the essentially meaningless term pre-history? Eskimos? The Pamunkey Tribe? El Molo?

[jobycom]

48. Incorrect. I'm speaking as a trained historian who has studied many cultures, and

culture in general. I have done a great deal of study on literacy and the impact of education on the Middle Ages, not just using written texts but archeological, scientific and other methods.

I don't really care how humans were born, or who invented the term "pre-history" (which only means the era of a society before they began writing, which must be accessed through archeological and other means). The fact that humans wanted out of whatever state they were born in is proof enough to me that it sucked.

I guess if you're advocating a return to hunter-gatherer status, I'll just say we have a different opinion of the best way for humans to live, and maybe you should study the writings of Theodore Kazynski. If you are arguing that civilization can reach a status where food is abundant and not subject to the whims of seasonal weather changes, where illnesses and injuries can be treated with some hope of survival, where there is a technological structure which makes life easier to live, where lifespans are in their seventies rather than in their thirties, all without some form of educational system (schools) that allows people to learn knowledge beyond their immediate environs, I've argued you are wrong, and you've come back with nothing other than a "You are brainwashed by your culture, I am enlightened beyond your petty mortal mind" argument. Sorry, doesn't work for me.

[greyl]

53. "The best way for humans to live"? You showed your cards there.

There isn't a best way for humans to live, but in our culture that myth is pervasive.

It's pure culture-centric myth that human societies who aren't bent on turning the planet into an unsustainable empire are less advanced than ours.

"a return to hunter-gatherer status" ?

What, do you think the "agricultural revolution" was something that happened among all truly evolved representatives of the human race, and that the thousands of non-consumption driven cultures on this planet have a lower status?


edit: I also notice you use the term "trained historian". Where does the idea come from that a competent historian must be trained by the culture who believes history is the story of their culture?

[jobycom]

120. Alright, go live your 30 year lifespan in starvation, see if I care.

Watch as 2 out of 3 of your children die of illness before age 5. You are seriously arguing that there is no such thing as a better life? Why are you on DU, then--that sounds like a Republican argument. No need for health care, all life is equal. No need for Walmart to raise wages, all life is equal. No need to oppose Apartheid, no need to try to feed those in nations with ten year droughts and no sustainable food supply, everyone's life is as good as everyone else's. Why'd someone have to go and invent the wheel or penicillin, anyway?

Why are you on a computer? They were invented by people trying to create a better world. You must hate them.

[greyl]

125. jobycom, please read & think more carefully.

There is nothing to be found in support of your straw version of my pov in what I wrote, just as there is nothing in reality to support your mythological view that there is a best way for humans to live.

You are seriously arguing that there is no such thing as a better life?

No, you're imagining that.

[The2ndWheel]

55. "The fact that humans wanted out of whatever state they were born in"

Some humans. The humans that didn't were killed for progress.

[greyl]

58. ...or are still either being killed or assimilated.

Their numbers are certainly dwindling, but thousands of the cultures still exist as testament that it is possible for humans to lead sustainable lifestyles. Also, they don't seem to be at all concerned about some 'fallen' state they were born into.

www.nativeplanet.org.

[jobycom]

121. What?

So now a call for a better educational system is a call for genocide?

No one is killed for progress. People are killed for greed. By others who mistake progress for acquisition. The point of education is to help society overcome that. People are killed by those fighting progress, no matter what words they use.

[The2ndWheel]

122. So there would be an America

if we had just praticed the non-acquisitional form of, or true, progress?

You can take any empire as an example. Was Rome fighting against progress? Were the barbarians they fought with fighting against progress? Which side fights against progress?

So what do you consider to be progress? Where does progress start? Wanting something more out of life? How do you acquire that?

I also didn't say word one about education. You said most humans wanted out of whatever state they were in. I said some humans did, and those humans killed whoever stood in their way. You brought up having something better and genocide.

[greyl]

126. Do you "believe in" Manifest Destiny? nt

[NotGivingUp]

68. pearls of wisdom. i totally agree.

[greyl]

76. That's always nice to see. :) nt

[jobycom]

17. My straight A niece just dropped out, for a disturbing reason.

She lives in Mississippi. Her older sister also dropped out. They claim that the high school (my old high school) is so bad that you can't learn anything there. That may be true, but it gets worse. She found some service online that tries to convince kids that they don't really need to finish high school, that they can drop out and take the GED, while being educated at this web service. I haven't checked into this, so I'm going off what my niece explained to me. She says the councellor at this site told her that most people now have to go to a junior college for two years before they can get into a real university, anyway, so it's better to get a GED (using their service) than to finish high school.

Several of her friends dropped out, too. None of them are half as smart as her, though. They've all officially filed as being "home schooled" to keep from breaking truancy laws. If my niece is telling us the truth, there's a racket out there exploiting these kids, and a lot of it has to do with Bush's "no child left behind" garbage. Schools don't teach, they just train for these tests, and then they give a ton of homework (my second grader has one to two hours of homework a night, at a public school). The parents are supposed to teach the kids at home, it seems. Overworked parents or parents without an education themselves, or broken homes (like my niece's) are at an extreme disadvantage.

Just another conservative tactic to preserve the "proper" division of the classes.

[donsu]

24. I've never agreed with homework

way back when I was in highschool there was some homework (special projects) but not much.

when my kids were in school I didn't make them do homework and talked to the teachers and told them why.

the why: if they can't learn what they need to learn by being in school all day long, something is wrong. adults don't usually bring their work home after 8 hrs. (plus overtime sometimes). and children shouldn't have to do homework after being in school all day.

they need time to outside and active and to interact with family and friends. and they need to just lounge around and rest too.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

27. I may know a bit about some of what the counselor told her.

The part about, "most people now have to go to a junior college for two years before they can get into a real university, anyway, so it's better to get a GED than to finish high school."

What is taking place in Texas, and perhaps in Mississippi also, is they offer two different courses of HS study. You have the 'college bound' and the 'basic diploma' classes. The latter provides you with just enough credits to graduate, but leaves you lacking on the actual classes required to get into college. My daughter is a recent HS graduate in Texas and I was amazed at the number of her peers parents who did not know which course of study their children were taking. They simply assumed their child was going to graduate ready for university.

[jobycom]

31. Thanks for the info. My daughter starts high school next year

Well, assuming she pulls her grades up. How do you make sure your kid is in the right track in Texas?

[Lone_Star_Dem]

35. All you have to do is request that they be placed in the correct program

Then you have to make sure that they actually are placed in the correct classes. I used to sit down with my daughter and the counselor twice a year to make sure we were still on track.

Glad to be of help. Good luck with the kiddo. :)

[Porcupine]

69. If she can get A's as a HS junior she can take JC level classes

for college credit. Your local JC is geared to students who barely got c's in high school. My ex started college at 16 and has a 3.7 GPA overall for college and postgrad work.

High school truly could be a waste of time for your neice. Do you want her focusing on prom or college statistics? Even if she only takes 9 units per semester she will be ahead if she can get a B average in transferable units. The JC has tranfer agreements with several university.

[Megahurtz]

91. Wrong. This has to do with FUNDING.

You are talking about "Independant Study" which is offered to students as an alternative to attending regular High School. Since the schools receive little or no Federal funding anymore they rely on State funding.

Regular High School receives their funding as long as each student attends X number of days. In Independant study the school gets their funding from how many packets and/or courses they complete.

This is not a "racket". This is only the school system trying to survive as it is.

BTW, there is nothing wrong with Independant Study. I wholeheartedly support it.

[jobycom]

119. Sounds like a racket, anyway.

If you're talking about the same thing she is, then the high school is getting funding for her dropping out. That's a racket--the school is getting the money, my niece is goofing off and sending money to someone half the country away to make it look like she's in school, and when she's done she won't have a diploma, she'll have a GED and will have to take two years of junior college to even get into college. I don't see how that's an advantage for her.

[aroach]

131. She may be onto something

I dropped out at 16 and took my GED. I even earned a scholarship based on my GED test scores. I scored high enough on the ACT for advanced placement in math and English.

My own children are homeschooled. They won't have to take the GED though. Universities are actively recruiting homeschoolers these days.

Your niece may well be doing the right thing.

[pitohui]

21. they just now noticing this?

half of all students at my high school some mumble, mumble years ago were drop-outs, including, ultimately, myself

as far as the importance of a high school diploma, to a certain extent, they confuse cause and effect -- some people are drop-outs because they are losers rather than losers because they are drop-outs

now it is true that the reason that many otherwise bright students drop out is because of bullying, violence, or "zero tolerance" strategies that would re-assign an otherwise good student to a dangerous alternative school w. a worthless diploma for taking her own aspirin to school

those students once could have been successful anyway, but our increasingly competitive and class oriented society has taken steps to shut doors to those people -- example -- in the 70s in my state if you dropped out, you could still take a GED and an ACT with a sufficiently high score and proceed to a decent college, in the 1980s our state legislature made a deliberate change to prevent such students from being able to bypass the dangerous public high school system, without a "real" high school diploma you simply were not allowed to enter certain colleges

including the one where i graduated with honors

i frankly see this as a sneak attack on gifted poor and black students, who are more likely to attend dangerous high schools, it prevents them from using their brains and high test scores to get out of a dangerous situation even one day sooner -- yes, they can drop out, but it closes the door to many colleges to them so they're still trapped in their dangerous neighborhoods even if they can't be cornered at school any longer


these people who could have been otherwise productive tax-payers have simply been thrown away in the garbage by our society

now, i recognize that there are always going to be no-hopers, who will never do well in any school or on any test, and i think there are an intractable number of such students whose only gift is physical -- yet who aren't gifted enough to be an athlete -- having no way to earn a living wage except through crime because we allow the undocumented immigrant to come in and do the same job they would once do

and many people are just not intelligent enough to be able to do any meaningful function in a high tech society, education can do only so much, keep in mind that dubya himself went to harvard and yale and yet is about as educated as most middle schoolers (italy is the one shaped like a boot indeed!)

some people are never going to learn and all you can do is give them social promotions -- which i doubt increases their lifespan or opportunities, dumb ass coke heads will still be dumb ass coke heads, with or without the piece of paper

i would like to see the numbers broken down more -- honestly, what job can a woman get that pays anything with a high school diploma that she couldn't get without (stripper, brothel, britney spears) -- for women, to get a real job you have to get a college degree and often nowadays even a masters, real families so often can't afford that and a clear-thinking young girl can lose hope because really her only "hope" is a lifetime of debt just to earn what the high school graduate boy earns at the auto shop anyway

[buddysmellgood]

26. This must be part of the "Half our children left behind" program.

[AnneD]

30. Ask 100 different kids to explain

why they dropped out and you'll get 100 different reasons. Out of our family of 4-3 dropped out. Oldest boy had a learning disability, he was held back and struggled in school. He finally reached the point when he had had enough. He was lucky to get vocational training via his job, became a master welder and make more than I ever will. Brother 2, smart as a whip but picked on yet not challenged in academics. Stayed long enough to get the HS senior ring but left after that and made it on his own (skilled mechanic, electrical engineer). He got GED and is a counselor. Youngest sister, total screw ball. Very attractive and had decent modeling/acting career. Married into wealth. He died, she have to go to court to fight off older kids for her and youngest child's portion of the estate and won. Thank goodness court set up trust fund for the kid-remember, she's the screwball.

Three different kids, three different reasons. What we should have is more vocational training-not everyone should or wants to go to a university. Those geared to college should go at their own pace. I graduated HS but was ready for college in my senior year. What a waste of a year. I only stayed because I wanted to go to college. We also might want to offer incentives. In Houston we have a thing called the Challenge Program. HS lasts 5 years but you end up with almost 2 yrs of college credits when you are done. The kids love it, and so do the parents.

[SmokingJacket]

33. Surely that's the point of high stakes testing?

If you raise the bar before you improve the quality of the education, this is what happens.

[JCMach1]

107. Ding!

Exactly right.

[mike_c]

37. I dropped out of high school, twice-- today I have a Ph.D....

...and I'm a univerisity professor. My daughter is also technically a dropout-- no high school diploma-- but she has a college degree.

[buddysmellgood]

41. That path is not going to work for most.

[greyl]

44. On what is that based?

Also, aren't you making an unwarranted assumption(inherent in our culture) that all paths must lead to the marketplace?

edit:spling

[buddysmellgood]

46. It's based on the idea that most people do not get a PhD by dropping out of school.

The assumption is yours.

[greyl]

56. No, I don't think so. Do you think all paths should lead to the marketplace,

or not?

[buddysmellgood]

73. Define the marketplace.

[greyl]

75. The place where people have "real jobs" in order to pay for

1 potato which hundreds of people worked to get to the shelf, is a quick an incomplete way to put it.

[buddysmellgood]

78. If, by that, you mean a place where people make meaningful contributions to society

in order to compensate others for their meaningful contributions, I'd say yes.

[greyl]

82. I don't.

What you describe can be accurately applied to any tribal society which isn't market driven.

[buddysmellgood]

84. I see. So where do you live and is your national currency really the potato?

[greyl]

87. I live in the USA. nt

[XemaSab]

105. .

:toast:

[krkaufman]

115. hilarious! : ) n/t

[krkaufman]

113. "most" != "all"

Ya might've picked that up if you'd stayed in school. :)

[greyl]

127. You didn't read for comprehension.

Above, "most" and "all" are referring to two different things.

1. Most people (in regards to one particular path)
2. The direction in which all paths are leading

[greyl]

43. Does that indicate to you that the problem doesn't reside within the drop-out

but within the system they find unattractive and valueless?

[mike_c]

54. yes it does, at least some of them....

I think there are lots of kids who are simply not academically inclined, and there are lots who are too challenged by structured learning environments, or at least the one-size-fits-all-least-common-denominators environment that tends to dominate in public schools. But I also think there are lots of kids like me and my daughter who simply found that environment boring and unstimulating.

[greyl]

57. I think the vast majority of kids are like you and your daughter. :) nt

[Swede]

42. "Rarely is the question asked, is our children learning?"

This is not good.

[Norquist Nemesis]

45. I wonder how much the "College Degree" is mandatory for success

has to do with this. Years ago, high schools trained/educated kids for jobs to be successful in life. They could graduate and be successful as car mechanics, carpenters, painters, starting their own small business as repairmen, etc. Especially in small communities. The HS Diploma was a life milestone.

Today, high-schools seek to prepare the kids for college. From a young age, kids are being brought up with an eye on a college education; that the degree is required in order to be 'successful'. Yes, the statistics are overwhelming that the college degree graduates make more. (When was that not the case?) But, college degrees only guarantee expanded opportunity, not guaranteed success.

With that in mind, what does it say to a kid when his/her family cannot afford to send the kid to college. Or, the family that struggles to pay for college tuition. It used to be that a person with enough drive and motivation could work part-time and still pay their tuition and rent. It wasn't easy, but it was do-able. Today, it's next to impossible to achieve without substantial financial assistance.

The message is that a kid is a failure without the degree. I dunno. Something's out of whack.

[Odin2005]

49. High school diplomas have become almost worthless because of "dumbing down." of the curricula.

High schools have become more about teaching obedience to The Man then actually learning anything. I learned many times more stuff reading on my own then what I learned in class.

[KansDem]

52. "...college degrees only guarantee expanded opportunity"

And this is what I tell my 14-year-old daughter REPEATEDLY. It's not about "success" but about "options." She is becoming disenchanted with school (I mentioned her in previous posts), and it's become difficult trying to persuade her that staying in school results in MORE OPTIONS. I tell her she can go to college and be a doctor or a lawyer or she can flip hamburgers or be a day laborer IF SHE CHOOSES, but THOSE ARE OPTIONS! And I tell her if she drops out of school or does poorly and doesn't go to college, then she can kiss the "doctor" or "lawyer" good-bye becuase the only options she'll have will be flipping hamburgers or day laborer. THOSE ARE THE COLD HARD FACTS!!!

I'm hoping she will eventually see the wisdom of my years...but it's a struggle.

[Zookeeper]

108. You are so right....

I give that "options" speech to my kids frequently to encourage them to get the best grades they can.

[Megahurtz]

92. Perfect Post!

That says it all, and what you describe is the problem.

Education should be FREE, that way it would be available to ALL.

Until that would ever actually happen (if ever) these problems will continue
and the Class War will get worse.

[FooFootheSnoo]

102. I think people can still be successful in those jobs

My brother dropped out of high school and became a welder. He makes over $20/hr now and travels all over the place for his job. He knows he'll never be rich making $20/hr, but he's very happy with his salary. His wife is graduating from college next month. Most of her friends are college graduates and my brother makes more than they do. I just started a new job a month ago, I don't have a college degree. I hired on with about 30 other people, I think about 10 people in the class have college degrees. For the most part, I think college degrees are a scam. When I was in high school, the teachers talked up college and basically sneered at anyone looking to go to a vocational school. I think it's a fine choice for someone who wants a marketable skill and doesn't want to spend a lot of money and time. Of course, there are people who should go on to college and become doctors, teachers, lawyers, etc. And anyone smart enough, talented enough and driven enough should not be denied that oppurtunity because of money.

[madmusic]

51. They is?

Can you blame them? Zero tolerance, standardized tests, uniforms, rote learning. Education, good education, teaches how to think, how to challenge, how to question. Do we really think BushCo would want all of that individuality on any school campus?

Just say no to the new BushBot "manifest destiny."

Don't blame them at all, but it is sad. Now the crime rate will climb again and all the Just Say No To BushBoters will fill the new prisons.

[womanofthehills]

62. My granddaughter dropped out in her senior year

She had good grades, was talking of college and was Head cheerleader. She is very pretty, popular and has lots of friends. She had a fight with her mom over her mom's boyfriend, met a guy who fancies himself a musician who was in a charter school, switches over to the charter school to be near him and then just drops out and gets her GED.
Now she is working as a car hop on roller skates but she is really smart so they have made her part time manager and she is talking of going back to school in the future. She said she needs to work now to get a new car and then she will think about going back to school.
Actually,at first I was worried but now I'm not. She has a lot of self confidence and it's just her way of living her life.

[Tikki]

64. I made up my mind to stay in school because....

my mother told me I could never...or would never be able to 'stick to anything' for very long.
She, in essence, told me that I was a LOSER.

I never really believed her, I kind of always knew I was smart...but, to put it on record I stayed in High School and got my diploma.

When I started University...I thought I knew just everything about my major....I'd just go along with it for the
diploma. Boy oh boy, I learned so much about not only what made up my major, I learned even more about myself.

Maybe, the real reason to stay in school is to prove that you can stick to something for twelve years...something from start to
finish.



Tikki

[qwlauren35]

65. After spending 6 months as a teacher

This does not surprise me.

There's a disconnect between what is going on in schools, what is going on in kids' lives, and what is going on in kids' homes in terms of relating education to jobs to money. There are too many confusing messages.

Kids are seeing people WITHOUT an education getting rich in the entertainment world (and often not seeing that educated people with serious money skills are behind the scenes). And they are seeing people WITH educations, not only in liberal arts, but also in the sciences, going without jobs, or ending up in jobs they hate. Kids are starting to connect to a cyberworld that seems to have little connection to the world of adults, and doesn't translate easily to job skills. And because of the cyberworld, kids are starting to experience ways of communication that don't match what is going on in school. The visual, hands-on, cyberworld has little connection to the reading required to master school subjects.

Frankly, I think our kids are developing a "differently oriented" literacy.

I have a co-worker, VERY BRIGHT, who hates reading, reads poorly and reads slowly. He knows it, too. But because he is bright, he compensates, and has no interest in improving his reading skills.

I think we have a LOT of bright kids who have no idea of the importance of reading, and have no interest in improving that skill because it's not a major part of their lives outside of school (yet), and they have no idea how this might handicap them in the future. And if this is what's happening to the BRIGHT kids, we must really fear for those who are simply average...

[The Flaming Red Head]

66. They force them out to improve test scores

No child left behind apparently leaves at least 31% of them behind.

They can always go back and get a GED, continue to community college, and then a four year university, or take the VoTech route, not everyone ends up in prison. Sometimes the smartest ones drop out because they don't fit into the cookie cutter mold.

[Igel]

67. Drop-out rates were an issue a few months ago.

The educators that were interviewed indicated that there aren't good records for over-all drop-out rates from the '70s, but that the impression is that drop-out rates haven't actually changed in the last 30-40 years. School districts kept skewed and incomplete records, or counted any GED recipients as "graduates", or even tried to say that the drop-outs were just changing school districts; but where there are comparable records the differences aren't all that great.

What's changed is (a) documenting the drop-out rates in school districts (with many of the same problems in counting graduates/drop-outs as before, just better quantified); (b) the distribution of drop-outs, with a greater percentage in city schools and in public schools. (a) means that the comparison of old drop-out rates in a school district with the present drop-out rate isn't valid.

It's a problem. But 30 years of school reforms haven't solved the problem, even mandatory pre-school only seems to produce a measurable effect for the few few years of school. NCLB is hardly likely to be the problem for drop-out rates in the '90s or '80s, it's merely produced a more exacting bookkeeping so that we have better numbers. The predictors of academic success are the same now as in the '70s (keeping in mind the presumably unnecessary caveat that the predictions are statistical in nature); where you have high drop-out rates you have the same predictors. However it's now a bit easier to tease apart the actual factors that predict success or not, as opposed to the secondary and derivative factors, since they have more and sometimes different data.

[Manifestor_of_Light]

71. i graduated high school in the early 70s

And all teachers think that their class is the ONLY class with homework, and it is the MOST IMPORTANT class. Other subjects don't count.

I remember one English teacher witch who gave us UNexcused absences for school sponsored orchestra trips.

[Tight_rope]

80. There goes that "NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND" motto!

Not that the illiterate, incompetent Chimp in Chief ever cared about America's kids/youth. If he did, he would have never ran for president.

[dogfacedboy]

86. Sometimes it's a warehousing system.

My son knew by the end of his sophomore year in HS exactly where he wanted to attend college, and what he wanted to study. He had top grades, and was very active in his school. He took classes at his college while in HS. His 3rd and 4th years of HS were excruciatingly boring for him. State law wouldn't allow him to graduate early so he could move on with his plans. He was warehoused for two years. The educational system needs to be re-vamped in this area. Why can't a student begin their work toward a medical or law degree as early as possible? What if a kid grows up knowing for a fact that they will be a plumber or carpenter once they are out of HS? After two to three years, HS should be optional if it will make the students forward movement more productive.

[WindRavenX]

90. a very, very disturbing symptom of the illness of our society

A large part of it, in my opinion, is the proliferation of high stakes testings (like the fucking retarded MA MCATs) that will prevent you from graduating, if you should fail, regardless of your grades-- I am a very poor multiple choice tester. I only got a 1260 on the SAT despite having a bunch of other credentials that would suggest 1400+ scores for me. But I, like many students, were drilled at a very young age that you only had to pass the tests-- you didn't need to know the material in order to pass; you only needed to know how to pass the test.
The high stakes testing ties into economic and racial factors; it should be no suprise that white, middle and upper class students do far better than minority students because they have access to other sources that many poorer students do not-- tutors, stable home enviroment, etc.
Public schools are not being adequetely funded, and the real root of the issue-- creating an enviroment where children are taught to be critical thinkers-- is being destroyed by racist, ineffective bullshit bandaide legislature like the NCLB act.
Finally, many people are frustrated with the lack of "good" teachers. You want good teachers? Pay me more than 25K a year to start off with. The public demands well educated, trained teachers (I'm going into education)-- but how on earth do they expect that to happen when teachers aren't funded? Going to college and accuring debt to become a well educated teacher is fine, so long as you pay a decent salary.
Teaching is seen as a last resort for many people, and it's a damn shame. But if you want to have bright, eager teachers like me, then you HAVE GOT TO PAY MORE.

[truthisfreedom]

97. under rethug rule, we have "all children left behind." however, it's said "all childs left behind"

by prison wardens.

[Chovexani]

110. I'm a high school dropout

High school was a hell that I'm still recovering from at 25. I was a gifted kid in a school full of anti-intellectual assholes, a goth kid where everyone listened to rap about "bitches and hoez", a black kid who "talked white", Wiccan in a school full of fundie xians that made it their mission to make my life miserable...openly queer in a school full of homophobes (I cut gym because the cheerleaders used to beat me up in the locker room). Fuck, do I really need to go on?

I like to say that high school turned me into the angry, misanthropic malcontent I am as an adult. I suspect a big chunk of the dropout problem has to do with bullying. A lot of people don't understand just how bloody difficult it is for kids who are different in some way, whether it's because of their interests, sexual orientation, etc. I attempted suicide a few times and I knew people who succeeded.

To the people who blame video games, I suggest you put down the Tipper brigade propaganda and get a clue. Games and the gaming community kept me alive, and that's not hyperbole. They sparked my imagination and turned me onto writing, and got me involved in various fannish pursuits that have enriched my life a thousandfold. My mom used to complain about my gaming habits when I was a youngun, until I reminded her that I could have been off doing drugs and having unprotected sex like a lot of the kids my age.

[NuttyFluffers]

116. i have found gamers far more educated than their peers...

not all, but many. there's always the counterstrike, GTA, madden 200x, casual gamer contingent that are just spaceholders.

but i found many gamers, from video game, card game, to tabletop game, to be some of the most articulate, educated, and aware people. they often know their geography, history, current world events, etc. they have an appreciation for poetry, cinematography, orchestration, strategy, storytelling character development, art design, statistical manipulation, human psychology, etc. that far exceeds the average "bitches and hoes!" lunkhead youth. they often adjunct near comic, animation, sci-fi, and fantasy sub-cultures and end up being educated further.

gaming really does not get the credit it deserves as being a potentially positive force in the world today for youth. and when you mentioned how gaming saved your life, i believe it. many a person i've come across had miserable social experiences in their youth and this avenue of escapism has been a lifesaver. a lot of the most talented and thoughtful people i've come across in my life would possibly be dead and gone today if it wasn't for this release valve in a deeply sick society.

[Jennicut]

114. I went to high school in a rich town in Connecticut

and HATED it! I graduated 12 years ago in 1994 from Cheshire High School and there were tons of rich snobby kids that made you feel like crap because you didn't have tons of clothes, great car, etc. It sucked. I made it through although I was bad in math and only scored around the 900's on my SATs. I got a Psychology degree from Central Conn State U. I was always good in English and writing/researching papers so I did well in college. Can't afford to live in Cheshire though. Houses are too expensive. Less middle class people there now. I'm going back to college to get a certificate in teaching preschool. My Intro to Early Childhood Ed teacher recently started a discussion in class about NCLB and ALL the parents in class detest it. Their kids are testing all the time. Afterschool programs are being cut. Less research and writing papers and more multiple choice tests. I was always bad at those. Plus, we had a Newsweek article handed out in class. We read about kids dreading school because of all the emphasis on testing. These kids were crying, dreading school and wanted to drop out in the 2nd and 3rd grades! It was very sad. Alot of parents transferred their kids to private schools if they could afford it. NCLB does not measure a thing and even worse, if the schools don't "pass" all the kids the funding for the school from the government gets cut off. Some children get branded losers and idiots for not passing the tests and stay behind to repeat a grade. Learning disabilities are being ignored. What a stupid law. Does not help education at all. Plus, both parents have to work today and pay less attention to their kids. Some alienated kids in suburban schools are becoming violent. 12, 15 years ago these kids were cutting class. Maybe smoking pot, getting drunk, driving fast. My brother was one of them, a "metalhead". Now they take guns to school and shoot principals and other students. Even popular kids are more violent. My sister-in-law's younger sister tells me all sorts of stories about her high school. School in the U.S. sucks so I'm not surprised to hear the drop out rate. I call it the dumbing down of education by Dumbya, our great leader and president.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

117. I find this so sad,

One of my friends who used to be a teacher in the LA Public School system and now teaches in a private school sums it up like this "there is not enough stigma left in failure in this country" and that "most of my students would rather have been perceived as criminals by their peers than as intelligent"

She went into teaching as an idealistic 24 yearold from a family who had been active in the civil rights movement who believed education and a caring teacher could heal all to being a deeply cynical woman who is pushing 40 and quit the public schools because she couldn't take dealing with students who didn't care, parents who didn't care and other teachers who didn't care.

She now says that her students and their parents might aspire that they be the next Ken Lay, but that is better than aspiring to be the next Tony Montana.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

128. This is a social failure, not one of the system.

This is a social failure in that many segments of society do not see education as a value. The people with the money don't see it as a good value for their INVESTMENT of money, and the people going through the educational system don't see it a as a good value for their INVESTMENT of time.

Education and educated men (in particular) have been long ridiculed as effeminate (and, gasp, GAY). For a high school age boy, putting up with that criticism is sometimes too much. They then tend to dumb themselves down to fit in. This as well, is a social failure.

Not being a woman, I can't speak from any experience.

Sadly, the father of Capitalism rants about the need for an educated populace for the system to succeed, yet ironically, today's Capitalists find no way to fund an educational system to provide an educated populace.

We live in a country that depends on an educated populace to govern itself and an economic system that depends on an educated participant to realize right and wrong and when they are making a good deal. However, we are a failure at providing the system to educate the future caretakers of our society. If we as a people are not smart enough to depend on ourselves, then we turn to people who are stronger than us and the constantly shrinking educated class to tell us what to do. Then poof, the concept of everyone being a part of govt. vanishes.

[JackDragna]

129. Another one of those incredibly complex problems..

..that will require multiple changes in how society runs to solve. I've taught in both private and public schools, in both good and bad environments for learning. Here are the common threads I see in both places:

1. Any significant level of poverty really has an effect on kids. Their parents are more likely to have significant problems at home, such as drug abuse or neglecting their children, or at the minimum the parents just don't have time to help their kids with their homework. As we continue to shrink our middle class and force adults of child-rearing age to work longer hours, the problem is only going to get worse.

2. We must live in the most anti-intellectual industrial society on the planet. I am constantly amazed at the arrogant disdain students show for knowledge. I'm not talking about knowledge as the drudge of homework and tests students must undergo: that's a part of education most students find tiresome at some point. What bothers me is the hatred for knowing things, the idea that being aware of science, history, geography or any subject makes one pathetic and a loser. Kids pride themselves constantly on just how ignorant they are. I get asked all the time by my students, in quite a pointed fashion, if I spend my free time reading dictionaries due to the size of my vocabulary. There's also no hell God could ever make that would be worse than the one students make for their peers who actually try to not just do well in school, but to learn. I think most of the truly gifted kids I've taught would probably receive less harassment being openly homosexual.
We need to teach kids that being informed is as important as doing well in school. Part of this will entail valuing knowledge from a societal aspect. We need to emphasize in schools the importance of knowing something about government, the arts, science and so on as a function of one's role in society. Even if people never use these things in their careers, it's needed for them to make informed choices for themselves and their families. From the educational aspect, we must stop the idiotic high-stakes testing format of education that teaches kids the goal of education is to learn a set of process skills. I have seen NCLB just kill the will of kids to learn and teachers to teach. When the goal of learning becomes to act like a robot, who can blame them?

3. As others have stated in this thread, we need to make vocational training a real option. We're not going to see that increase within the near future, however. If we increase vocational training in school, then we'll have more skilled plumbers, car mechanics, electricians and so on. Those people will want to be paid real salaries. The current trend in society is to take away money from the skilled middle class, with the purpose of consolidating it in the upper classes, thereby reducing both the economic and political power of people who often up as Democrats.