Ex-Russian spy dies in hospital

[muriel_volestrangler]

Former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko has died in hospital three weeks after apparently being poisoned in London.

Mr Litvinenko, 43, had been critically ill in intensive care at University College Hospital after suffering a heart attack on Wednesday night.

Friends of Mr Litvinenko have claimed he was poisoned because of his criticism of Russian President Vladimir Putin - Russia has denied this.

Scotland Yard said they were now investigating "an unexplained death".

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6176004.stm

It's now thought unlikely it was either thallium poisoning, or a radioactive substance. And the earlier 'objects' found on an X ray have been explained as Prussian Blue, which he was given (probably when thallium poisoning was suspected).

[dipsydoodle]

1. Tragic

Still seems odd how quickly he went downhill. Maybe the inevitable autopsy will shed further light on the subject.

[jannyk]

2. I wonder if we'll ever know

what Anna was really working on when she was mudered. Two nights ago there was an 'Independant Lens' documentary on PBS which had much footage of Anna Politkovskaya working in Chechnya

"He had been investigating the murder of Russian investigative journalist Anna Politkovskaya."

Apparently Litivenko had a heart attack and died Weds night.

[Darth_Kitten]

3. that's too bad......

:(

[Henny Penny]

4. Very unfortunate for the individual but

the coverage of this story has been completely ridiculous... right down to the latest "explanations"

This poor man might have done well to avoid all contact with British intelligence and Russian billionaires imho.

[THUNDER HANDS]

5. this is going to make a great book/movie

in 10 years.

[daleo]

6. Maybe he "committed suicide"

Like the British WMD scientist who slit his wrists so unusually, while out for a walk.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

13. Are you being sarcastic? n/t

[daleo]

17. I am pointing out how differently these cases are being treated by the media

I the matter of this alleged Russian spy that was supposed to have been poisoned, we get absolutely no context - for example, why the Russian government would want to assassinate him. We are just expected to accept the story at face value, because Putin is a bad man, I guess (even though Bush saw that his soul was good). I thought the cold war was over, but maybe someone wants to revive it.

On the other hand, the British scientist Dr. David Kelly supposedly committed suicide, although there are many good reasons to disbelieve this. These include the peculiar manner of suicide and his actions previous to his death. Blair and Bush had excellent reasons to kill him (he probably knew things about the trumped up motives for the invasion that they wanted to keep quiet), yet the western media has not really followed up on this.

If Dr Kelly's mysterious death can be brushed aside as a "suicide", why not this one?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

19. Because that would be stupid. n/t

[daleo]

25. So, you agree that brushing aside Dr. Kelly's death as a suicide is stupid

Good call.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

28. Ya.

I'm sure he and Vince Foster, Paul Wellstone, and Pauly Shore were all targeted by the CIA. Because of Castro. It's always because of Castro.

[daleo]

30. No, but I think Kelly might have been targeted by MI6

He had knowledge that might have brought the Bush/Blair Iraq lies to light years ago.

"Although suicide was officially accepted as the cause of death, some medical experts have raised doubts, suggesting that the evidence does not back this up. The most detailed objection was provided in a letter from three medical doctors published in The Guardian <6>, reinforced by support from two other senior physicians in a later letter to the Guardian <7>. These doctors argued that the autopsy finding of a transected ulnar artery could not have caused a degree of blood loss that would kill someone, particularly when outside in the cold (where vasoconstriction would slow blood loss). Further, this conflicted with the minimal amount of blood found at the scene. They also contended that the amount of co-proxamol found was only about a third of what would normally be fatal. Dr Rouse, a British epidemiologist wrote to the BMJ pointing out that the act of committing suicide by severing wrist arteries is an extremely rare occurrence in a 59 year old man with no previous psychiatric history <8>. Nobody else died from that cause during the year."

Dave Bartlett and Vanessa Hunt, the two paramedics who were called to the scene of Kelly's death, have since gone public with their view that there was not enough blood at the location to justify the belief that he died from blood loss. Bartlett and Hunt told The Guardian that they saw a small amount of blood on plants near Kelly's body and a patch of blood the size of a coin on his trousers. They said they would expect to find several pints of blood at the scene of a suicide involving an arterial cut <9> <10>.

"Eerily, during the Hutton inquiry, David Broucher, a British ambassador, reported a conversation he recalled from "deep within the memory hole" with Dr Kelly at a Geneva meeting in February 2003. Broucher had asked Kelly what would happen if Iraq were invaded, and Kelly had replied, 'I will probably be found dead in the woods.' <11>"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Kelly#Alternative_theories

Note, I know it is Wiki, but it also sources the Guardian and BMJ. Why accept the Russian story, but scoff at this?

[daleo]

36. Here is some suicide speculation from The Guardian

"They also point at the police's response to the death, which veered from an investigation into a 'suspicious poisoning' to 'how this man became ill'. Officially Scotland Yard has yet to launch a murder inquiry, claiming they still do not have enough evidence to rule out Litvinenko's death as an accident or suicide. But could it be suicide? Was this a desperate final act of man marginalised by the mainstream for whom his anti-Kremlin message depended on the oxygen of publicity?

Certainly, Litvinenko's profile has never been greater. Even his most incendiary allegations against the Kremlin had played to little effect in Russia. Yet his deathbed description of Putin as a 'barbaric and ruthless' president played to millions worldwide. And, regardless of which direction the case twists next, the inquest and accompanying attacks on Putin from dissidents promise fresh embarrassment for the president."

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1957301,00.html

I thought I was being sarcastic, but these days sarcasm's half-life is shorter than Polonium's.

[mc jazz]

7. who dunnit?

was it putin, isreal, neo-cons, iran or al-queda?
They suck because in comics deception is the premise the superhero's rescue us from. It was unoriginal and not cool to feature a Sushi bar and no confrontation scene. This is the work of humourless bastards to be sure

[Bobbieo]

8. Unfortunately, if he had lived - he would have been in chronic pain

with his insides so badly damaged. What a horrible way to die. There are far less painful ways to commit suicide and that is why I think he was murdered.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

14. Welcome to DU. This certainly bears similarity to Yushchenko's situation.

Poison seems to be an entity's weapon of choice. MKJ

[kurth]

9. Spy's dying words: 'they got me'

Spy's dying words: 'they got me'

... The Press Association reports that in an interview with The Times newspaper just hours before he slipped into unconsciousness, Mr Litvinenko whispered: "The bastards got me, but they won't get everybody".

Oleg Gordievsky, a former colonel in the KGB who defected to Britain in the mid-1980s, said there was "no doubt" that the Russian secret service was responsible for Mr Litvinenko's death.

"There is no doubt at all that it was the KGB who did it," Gordievsky said in an interview with the BBC soon after Litvinenko's death was announced...

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/spys-dying-words-they-got-me/2006/11/24/1163871585176.html

[Henny Penny]

11. no doubt and so far, no evidence...n/t

[Zynx]

20. There is very good motive as well as the method involved pointing

to foul play by Putin.

[Henny Penny]

21. The motive and method point to numerous others much more convincingly!

If the FSB wanted this guy dead he would have died instantly and wouldn't have had a chance to "dictate his deathbed accusation". And no doubt they like all the other intelligence agencies could have used a rather more subtle means. So why chose this method? It really doesn't serve any useful purpose from the Putin perspective. However if you wish to destabilize Putin on the other hand...

When something reads like bad fiction, it usually is fiction imho.

[Zynx]

23. Very few places you can get a usable amount of Polonium 210

That would seem to indicate Russia, as they are known to make it.

It's very exotic - as far as anyone knows, it's never been used like this before. While you can argue that something this exotic is unnecessarily flashy, you still need to account for how some non-state group could even get their hands on something this exotic.

[daleo]

26. So the Russians smuggled a radioactive substance into the U.K. to use as a poison?

It seems excessively complicated. It also doesn't say much for British security measures, if the Russian secret service can get Polonium into the U.K., or get hold of some while in England.

Alternatively, it might have been a false flag operation by MI6, who could get hold of whatever they needed in Britain. Why? Perhaps to discredit the Russians, who are an obstacle to a lot of western plans around the world (e.g. Afghanistan, Iran, North Korea).

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

29. I thought the only place you could get Polonium...

...was Polond.

:evilgrin:

[LisaL]

35. Seems like a rather dangerous poison to use.

Whoever administered it would have to use precautions as to not poison him/herself.
Rather bizarre.

[AngryAmish]

38. I read somewhere it is an alpha emitter

Alpha radiation is not dangerous outside the body. Inside it is another story. I think. What I do not know about radiation can fill volumes.

[Psephos]

24. I take a contrary view

The poisoning ensured the story stayed alive across multiple news cycles. The slow death from internal organ failure (with added bonus of all hair falling out) was horrifying to contemplate. Russia's hardliners have effectively sent a "public service announcement" to their critics what can be expected if they become too much a nuisance to the state.

Simple analysis of who wins in this situation should remove any doubts about who did it and why.

There are cold thugs in the Kremlin these days, and the world is taking little notice. Political assassination of critics by field agents is straight out of Cold War days.

Peace.

[Henny Penny]

31. Or anti-Putin types had three weeks of guaranteed publicity

because of the James Bond style craziness of the whole scenario. The "storyline" ensured that every media outlet in the world would carry the story.

Anyone who believes the media line on this really has to be a bit stupid imho.

"There are cold thugs in the Kremlin these days, and the world is taking little notice. Political assassination of critics by field agents is straight out of Cold War days.

Peace."

Probably true Psephos, but then you could substitute the Pentagon or Whitehouse for Kremlin or the Foreign Office and MOD and it would be just as true. So when the question is asked "Just who could have gotten hold of Polonium 210? It had to be govt. of some kind..." The answers Russia, US or UK are equally valid.

Add in the information that the US and UK desperately want rid of Putin and the poor victim in all this was hanging out with some Russian billionaires, who are no doubt keen to get back into Russia for some more bargain basement privatizations that would surely follow Putin's replacement with a pro-Western Yeltsin type.. and I think you'll agree its unlikely to have been anything to do with the FSB.

JMHO of course.

[Psephos]

32. A hall of mirrors, isn't it?

You may be right. No one knows. But I still put my money on the Russians. They're a nasty bunch.

My ex-girlfriend, and my current best friend, are both naturalized US citizens born and raised in the former Soviet Union. They tell me the word inside Russia these days is that ex-KGB Putin is picking off the loudest critics as publicly as possible as he consolidates power within the intelligence services. Worldwide, Russian spies have again become as active as they were during the glory days of the 60s and 70s.

Peace.

[daleo]

33. Yes, the Russians are so nasty

As opposed to us westerners, who aren't nasty, but accidentally invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, killing several hundred thousand innocent people.

[Psephos]

34. You're right Daleo, I meant the people running the Russian govt

Cold, efficient, and brutal. You may recall that the Russians invaded Afghanistan, too. But if you want a true sense of how they operate, check out their scorched-Earth policies in Chechnya.

The Russian people, OTOH, are extraordinarily warm, full of soul and poetry, vital even in the face of relentless difficulty. I've been a Russophile since first encountering Russian literature in my teens, and my admiration of Russians has only grown since.

I hope you'll agree that one can criticize bad people in the Russian government without implying that other governments have no dirty laundry themselves. IMO, one can find nastiness in every government and in the actions of every country. That is the nature of countries, and their governments. Some, naturally, are far worse than others. Power is an ugly thing.

There is no rule more invariable than that we are paid for
our suspicions by finding what we suspect.
- Henry David Thoreau

Hope you're stayin' warm in the northlands, Daleo. B-)

Peace.

[daleo]

37. It has been a tad chilly here, but that can have its dispensations

At least there will be good conditions this year for winter sports, and the mountain pine beetle might have a tough winter, which should be good for the trees.

I appreciate that governments and populations are not the same, although the one ought to reflect the other's will in a democracy. Clearly, this is often not the case, in Russia and in the west.

I have enjoyed Dostoevsky over the years as well.

Warm regards in return.

[orleans]

10. i just googled this to see how he was doing. n/t

[Azathoth]

12. Poor guy

It took him days and days to die, and some of the best doctors couldn't help him. Putin really scored a knockout with this one; people are gonna think twice before crossing him, particularly over Chechnya.

[sweetheart]

15. itsu

I wonder what he ordered there, blue maki, muerte roll.

[sakabatou]

16. An autopsy would prove what happened to him

Or some blood work.

[intaglio]

18. Polonium 210

Was the cause of the poisoning http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6180682.stm

Details on Polonium 210 http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/6181688.stm
/snip
What is polonium-210?

It is a naturally occurring radioactive material that emits highly hazardous alpha (positively charged) particles.


/snip
Philip Walker, professor of physics, University of Surrey said: "This seems to have been a substance carefully chosen for its ability to be hard to detect in a person who has ingested it."

[unkachuck]

22. figures....

....the western press wringing its collective hands over the death of a rogue Russian spy while our beleagured anthrax investigation goes nowhere....

[daleo]

27. Suppose a British (spy) defector had been killed by an exotic radioactive poison in Moscow

And the Russian government quickly pinned the rap on the British Secret Service, who they say must have smuggled the stuff into Russia, then secreted it into the victim's fish dinner at a high class Moscow restaurant. Might we not find the story a little "fishy"?

If I remember my John Le Carre, defectors can become troublesome for everyone in the spy business. The British may have had just as much motive as the Russians to get rid of this man. I guess I just don't trust the British government, after Iraq and the David Kelly "suicide". I wouldn't take anything they say at face value, when it comes to matters like this.