Protector of birds has no love for stray cats--Texan charged with felony animal cruelty

[XemaSab]

Jim Stevenson says he is not the hate-filled serial cat killer he has been made out to be. But, if he was shooting the feral cats that roam the sand dunes of this picturesque Gulf Coast island, the founder of the Galveston Ornithological Society argues that he would be breaking no laws.

In his view, he would be performing a public service by saving the lives of beautiful birds at one of the nation's best bird-watching locales.

"These birds, virtually all of them, are protected by state and local laws. Do we ignore what is happening with these stray cats, or do we finally stand up and do something about it?" Stevenson said. "Sometimes you get pushed to a point where you can no longer ignore a situation."

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/11/27/MNG7UMKF7E1.DTL

[mike_c]

1. I'm on the cats' side in this one-- sew the bastard up in a big bag...

...full of pissed off tom cats for an hour or two-- hell, chuck a few feathered lizards in too just to start the festivities.

[XemaSab]

2. Hi mike!

:hi:

Funny, that's exactly how I feel about people who dump stray cats as well as people who feed and defend stray cats! :D

[mike_c]

3. hey you....

:hi:

I'm one of those folks who rescues stray cats-- but I completely agree with you about those who abandon pets. So for my punishment, to I get stuck in a bag full of pissed off wrens?

[XemaSab]

6. Cardinals

:evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

With a couple of hawks and woodpeckers too.

:evilgrin::evilgrin::evilgrin:

[zanne]

142. VERY unfunny.

In your next life, may you come back as a stray cat.

[zanne]

141. Feed and defend stray cats?

Well then, I guess you'd want to sew me up in a bag, huh? I've been feeding stray cats all my life; I use Havahart traps and I work with a local humane group to get them spayed and neutered. I've taken in five cats. I'm sorry you have such a casual attitude about the humane treatment of animals. What's your story, anyway?

[XemaSab]

148. Um... I'm a biologist

and I get really frustrated when I see feral cats and other invasive species.

There are a lot of dedicated proponents of TNR but I feel that you're still maintaining a feral cat population in an area. TNR pretends to maintain a feral population, but I think feral cats should be humanely euthanized in order to protect native communities.

It's not the fault of the cats that they're feral and it may seem "unfair" to euthanize them, but nature isn't fair either. These cats will probably end up dying a nasty death at the end of their lives, and before that time they will potentially totally decimate the bird and small mammal population in an area.

It's great that you're taking in these cats. If more people would adopt feral cats, we wouldn't have such a problem. But I don't want to see permanant feral cat colonies all over the place. They're just not OK in my book.

[BikeWriter]

182. If the money and effort put into TNR were put into euthanasia...

there'd be millions less feral cats suffering in the wild and tens of millions birds still alive.

[gorbal]

157. Catch and release has been proven to work

Look into the studies and tell me if you are not convince.I know a guy who has been feeding a couple of ferals and one of them even snuggles with him now.

[BikeWriter]

183. Neutering them does not prevent their eating wildlife...

euthanasia does.

[Name removed]

100. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[XemaSab]

125. Hate to break it to you, pitohui my friend

But mike has a PhD in biology and he TEACHES ecology. :shrug:

[davidinalameda]

4. damn cats

how dare they not follow the law

what an idiot

[LeftyMom]

5. Sane people would get a trap.

They cost less than $50.

[BreweryYardRat]

7. I'm with you.

A minute's thought should have made this gibbering jackass realize that a humane trap was a better option.

Filth. I hope they throw his sorry ass in prison for the maximum possible time.

[MeasureTwice]

14. Not all ferals will walk into a trap.

Particularly ones that live in woods. Many will not go near anything that smells of people, they are truly wild animals, and some are very intelligent, and avoid traps.

The best thing to do with colonies of truly feral cats, if you can manage it, is to catch the tom (or all of them if there are several around) nueter him and release him. If the nuetered toms hold off any other toms (like local outdoor pets) while shooting blanks, the colony will eventually dissapear. Females are usually easier to catch, but you have to catch and spay more of them to be effective. You don't usually get to choose which cat you'll catch if you catch anything at all.

Killing or completely removing a few cats from a feral population isn't very useful, it only gets rid of the ones that let you see them.

Effective or not, I don't see how shooting them is cruelty, if it's done properly, any more than shooting a different wild animal, and you can buy licenses to do that in any state.

Do not think that a truly feral cat is anything like your housepet. They do not allow people near them, and will attack you if they are cornered. They cannot be turned into housepets. Not all cats in a colony are truly feral, but most non-feral cats are adopted to some degree by someone.

[LeftyMom]

17. I realize that.

Since there's a tnr group on the island, he ought to have worked with them.

Killing the cats doesn't make any difference in the long term, the colony will breed enough to keep it's numbers up to the level their area will support. Cats aren't precisely slow breeders.

[BikeWriter]

22. "the colony will eventually dissapear." While killing how many birds?

[bpeale]

66. I totally disagree

I now have 5 cats (at one time we had 11). One was abandoned when his owner just up & moved without him. Two were abandoned as kittens in a box down at the Rio Grande. One followed a (now dead) pet home & just moved in ... she is truly feral, but she is a house pet. Won't let us touch her. But she comes when she is called and is very attached to the two abandoned kittens from the Rio Grande. Our oldest cat, at age 8, was thrown into a trash can as a kitten in the middle of summer in the desert to die. My husband rescued him & brought him home. He is a sealpoint himalayan. But he has panic attacks now when we bring him into the house at night so he is medicated several hours before bringing him in.

Our feral beauty will not let us touch her, but she sleeps with us every night. She is very fearful of humans. I think she was abused as a kitten and has never forgotten. She has been living with us for 2 years now. We accept her just the way she is. She can't help the way she is either. None of them can.

In case you can't tell, I often rescue cats.

[EFerrari]

131. You don't see how shooting them is cruelty?

Good God.

[BikeWriter]

20. My Havahart was more than that. Cost me some scars, too.

[pitohui]

101. how is that sane, leftymom?

get a trap, take the cat to the shelter to be gassed at great stress to the cat and at no little expense to the public (clue train -- ferals cannot be adopted)

are people so ignorant of reality that they think being trapped, held, and gassed is better than a quick shotgun?

it is cruel to torture and prolong the suffering of the animal merely to protect your own ass from the cries of hysterics

i suppose at some expense to himself and much greater expense to the public he could have trapped and arranged for the cats to be gassed in order to cover his own ass and to look more proper

it would not be kind though to torture the animal that needs to be de-populated just to look better in front of the ignorant

what he did was the right answer

it seems the worse sort of sentimental ninny-hood to think trapping and gassing better than shooting

[Pavulon]

113. I have adopted feral cats..

Others I have had spayed/neutered and released. That basically slows the problem. I have no properly with people legally shooting animals under game laws. I shoot plenty of pests legally.

As I said earlier my problems are as follows:

Illegal discharge of weapon where people could be. This is really stupid. He was trespassing and doing something illegal.

Use of shitty weapon because he is doing something illegal.

If a person wants to kill humanely a head shot is required. That can not be done in a vehicle without a rest.

If you are going to shoot something it is your job to be sure it dies properly. 223 or 22-250 (high velocity round) or a quality bolt action 22 with a good scope and a REST.

Else he could just stab them in the chest with a 22 caliber ice pick.

[LeftyMom]

122. I would never think you a good arbiter of sanity,

I'd be happy to debate the issue with somebody who can distinguish a rifle firing a .22 from a shotgun or who is aware that while a few backwoods shelters still use gas almost every municipal or private shelter switched to injectable euthanasia some time ago.

Perhaps if you had any clue what a .22 is, you'd have some clue why using one on a moving target at a distance won't kill anything fast. It's very small caliber ammunition.

Next time you try to insinuate that I'm ignorant, try getting your own facts straight first.

[flvegan]

136. My

favorite of the Rice Krispies guys is Snap!

[ashling]

8. Why can't we all just get along ???!

that is all.

[BikeWriter]

44. While we're getting along 60-70 million cats are eating birds.

[ashling]

65. It was a joke!

why cant we just get along. us, the birds, the cats .... sheesh.
That would include the cats not messing with the birds.

BTW, I agree that feral cats are not a good thing.

[BikeWriter]

69. Good, thank you, now let's do something about them. :-)

[BikeWriter]

188. Very good. Yes, 60-70 million feral cats are not good...

We should all do something organized to fix it.

[pitohui]

102. thanks bikewriter EOM

.

[filer]

9. Stray cats can be caged.

Is this guy really a bird lover? I think he's a pecker head.

[BikeWriter]

19. ...and that means you're volunteering to care for them?

[flvegan]

10. RISE AGAINST OUR CAT OVERLORDS!!1!

You GO, Steve! It takes a big man with a big gun to eradicate cats, and then brag about it.

You da man, Steve-arino!

Just in case: :sarcasm:

[Midlodemocrat]

12. I hate these threads.

I can only imagine how badly you must feel when you hear about something like this because of your devotion to your animal rescue project.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm terrified of pit bulls, so I think what you are doing is absolutely heroic.

:hug:

[flvegan]

35. I've heard

this discussion many times. I don't disagree with the fact that feral cats kill small animals. I disagree with the random, cruel termination of them. Like pit bulls, the ferals and their situations should be understood, not nuked.

Thank you for saying this. It's very kind of you.

[BikeWriter]

23. Others of us love our native song birds which are dying by the millions.

[flvegan]

25. More because of people than feral cats, though.

Make it a crime to possess an unsterilized feline and fund TNR and I'll listen to that particular line of rationale (the killing of cats en masse).

[BikeWriter]

28. I'm for it, but what about the 60 million ferals killing birds now?

[flvegan]

30. I don't think that all 60 million ferals are killing birds as we speak.

[BikeWriter]

48. Yep, you're right, some are killing other endangered species.

[Sinistrous]

31. Where did Mr. Stevenson indicate that he gets the macho rush you are

accusing him of having in killing these cats?

Has your infatuation with the cutsie little kitty cats blinded you to the fact that, in this setting, thay are vermin? Do you have the same love of rats and mice? Vermin is as vermin does. Species have nothing to do with it.

(Yeah, I know. You now want to say that I'm vermin, or some other brilliant bon mot. Yadda, yadda, yadda.)

[flvegan]

33. FIRST of all, poster

I accused him of no such thing, thank you. Sounds like SOMEone has gone leaping to conclusions based on what he/she has heard before. Big shock.

Secondly, don't assume infatuation. I have the same love for all animals. I seek responsible solutions, not blind rage.

I don't want to say you're vermin. I will if you really want me to, though.

[BikeWriter]

43. So call me vermin, but if you love birds too, what's the solution? Huh? Huh?

[flvegan]

45. TNR and habitat protection.

Protection from people, development, pollution, etc. There's your solution.

[BikeWriter]

51. RETURN them to kill more birds? I don't think so!

[BikeWriter]

40. Hurray! Yep, the open mouth of a feral cat is not cute to a clutch of birds!

[BoneDaddy]

11. Feral cats need euthanizing

Feral cats are some of the most destructive animals out there and can easily, in time, reduce the small animal population to nil.

We are not talking bout house kitties people.

[Midlodemocrat]

13. I'd rather euthanize the people who let them become feral by not spaying their mom or dad.

[BikeWriter]

21. I could go for that, but sterile cats kill birds, too.

[BoneDaddy]

114. yeah

lets shoot stupid people.

[LeftyMom]

16. Euthanasia is painless mercy killing. Being shot with a rifle does not qualify.

Even if the guy is a world-class marksman, you're not going to have instant death with a moving target and a 22. Some are going to die slowly and some are going to be shot more than once and more than likely some are roaming the island with bullets in them until they die of their wounds or of the usual causes.

[Lasher]

27. Not so.

There is a stigma attached to shooting animals like this, but if the shot is properly administered (shooting at a moving animal with a .22 caliber rifle is improper) the cat would never hear it. More widely accepted methods of animal euthanasia, such as driving a terminally ill and suffering pet to the vet where a lethal injection is administered, can actually be more traumatic for the animal - but less so for the owner.

Sorry for being graphic, fellow cat lovers.

[flvegan]

32. From the article:

A toll-booth worker named John Newland, 68, who feeds the feral felines and considers them his pets, reported the killing around 9 a.m. He heard gunshots, spotted a bloody cat and saw a man speed away in a white van. Police stopped the van and found Stevenson with a .22 caliber rifle.

Doesn't sound like Mr. Stevenson confirmed his kill. He's not a vet, either. There's a stigma attached to "shooting animals like this" because this is 99.999% of the time how it is.

[BikeWriter]

46. One cat, and dozens want to string him up. How many birds died today?

[flvegan]

61. You didn't read the article.

Go back and reread it. It's not one cat. It's many.

[BikeWriter]

70. There are millions of cats, and they're all killing native species.

[Lasher]

50. I didn't vouch for Newland or anyone else - my point was that shooting is not always inhumane

That's an interesting statistic you have furnished. Studies show that when percentages like that are cited, they have been pulled out of someone's ear (to be polite) 87.3% of the time.

[BikeWriter]

52. Use Google, I did. There are nationally recognized experts out there!

[Lasher]

54. Thank you for the advice.

But if I may be so bold, I myself am somewhat expert on the subject.

[BikeWriter]

193. So, in this game of oneupmanship, I'm supposed to say I've killed...

thousands of things? :rofl:

[Lasher]

194. No, this is the part where you laugh at your own lame joke.

And I must say you have played your role well. I think I can be just as clever:

:spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray: :spray:

[Xithras]

121. Nobody here is ever going to agree with that.

I made the mistake of mentioning the fact that we occasionally have to shoot feral dogs around my house (far more dangerous than feral cats). That thread lasted for days and had some people convinced that I was Hitler reincarnated. People who aren't familiar with firearms often don't understand that a gunshot can kill faster and more painlessly than a hypodermic needle.

[Puglover]

146. I have the most

tender vet in the world and when it came time to put my pug down I had promised myself I'd pay whatever it took to have her come to my home to do it. He thankfully died in my arms the night before were supposed to take him in.

I was very surprized when she told me that she will never come to someones home to do it. Apparently very rarely the shots do the opposite and totally excite the animal rather then sedate it. At the office she can put it right under gas, if she's at someones home it can turn into a nightmare.

[BoneDaddy]

115. and

your point is?

[LeftyMom]

116. Correcting misinformation. Being shot from a distance with a .22 is not euthanasia.

Attempts to conflate the two to play down the animal cruelty dimensions of the case are not logical, reasonable or displaying respect for the truth.

[Pavulon]

117. Correct

I own a $1000 German 22 with 900 optics. Shoot match ammo. I have shot thousands of rounds through it. I can group well enough to hit a stationary animal from a rest.

I am pretty sure I could not hit a 3 inch target with no rest.

Now I am pretty sure he was shooting a shitty 22 and wal mart ammo.

No way he can make a consistent head shot. So he killing them inhumanely with chest shots.

If what he was doing was not illegal he would use the proper round for the job. It would be to loud and be noticed since he is breaking the law.

[BoneDaddy]

137. I was being sarcastic

I disagree. I don't think shooting a feral cat with a .22 rifle as being cruelty to animals, I see it as a service to the community and the eco-system's fauna.

[Hissyspit]

128. Feral cats need spaying and neutering.

[BikeWriter]

190. Feral cats need to be taken out of our ecology.

[Gormy Cuss]

15. Well, he has a point

"Regardless of what you think about killing an animal, you must ask yourself if one stray cat's life is worth more than dozens -- or hundreds -- of wild birds already bowing to the stresses of cars, TV towers, pesticides, loss of habitat."

I guess that means it's time to shoot the cars, TV towers, and humans too.:sarcasm:

[BikeWriter]

18. IBTL

[flvegan]

24. Stevenson (cat killing loony in the story) states the following:

"Regardless of what you think about killing an animal, you must ask yourself if one stray cat's life is worth more than dozens -- or hundreds -- of wild birds already bowing to the stresses of cars, TV towers, pesticides, loss of habitat."

I wonder, Lord of the .22, if you have given up your tv and car. What have you done to preserve their habitat, limit the use of pesticides? Yeah, not likely, you hypocrite. Easier just to start plugging away, eh?

Someone put "Logic" on the back of a frikkin milk carton, cuz it's been lost.

[LeftyMom]

26. Lead kills birds too

They're trying to ban the use of lead ammo in parts of California to save some bird species (condors I think? Xema'd know.)

[flvegan]

29. I like how songbirds matter, but other birds don't.

Probably not an appropriate suggestion, considering last week was...well, you know...turkeys 'n stuff.

[LeftyMom]

34. Well, they're dumb and ugly.

See?



Oh, and not social. See?


(Yeah, this one would come when I'd call it, unlike my cat and for that matter LeftyKid half the time.)

But they're not pretty like songbirds...

[flvegan]

36. Meh...

they taste good, and having human dominion to rape and pillage the planet as I see fit, I'm gonna eat 'em. If they made pretty noises, though, I'd think more highly of them and possibly spare them my wrath.
*snicker*

[BikeWriter]

38. Turkeys are't furry, if that's what you mean,

[BikeWriter]

37. Hey, he likes shore birds, too, and those turkeys were domestic.

[LeftyMom]

41. I guess you could call 'em domestic. They were fished out of a dumpster.

Nobody I talked to could remember where the wild turkey came from. I'm guessing that means he fell off a truck. ;)

[Lasher]

39. A nationwide ban on lead shot for waterfowl hunting was implemented in 1991

This is because waterfowl have been known to ingest the lead shot, and also lead sinkers, leading to their demise. Lead shot is still permitted by federal law for upland game bird (all except waterfowl) hunting and for pursuit of other game animals. I believe some more stringent state laws have been enacted to prohibit lead shot and sinkers. I don't know of a case where any birds except waterfowl have had problems with ingestion of lead. But there's lots of things I don't know. :dunce:

[LeftyMom]

42. I found it on the Google. It's an issue with California Condors.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2006-10-23-condor_x.htm

[Lasher]

53. Thank you for the education, LeftyMom

I might switch to something besides lead, if I can find anyone around here selling such a substitute. Not long ago steel was the only alternative. I am quite fond of birds, and would very much like to see a California Condor one day. I probably won't since I live in West Virginia. I am blessed on a regular basis with some less famous but spectacular creatures like the Indigo Bunting



and the Pileated Woodpecker



The Ivory-billed is (or was, we really don't know) only slightly larger than the Pileated. Around here most folks call the Pileated a 'Wood Hen' because it's easier to remember and pronounce. I have 20 acres of woodland that I won't timber, partly because my Wood Hens that nest here every year need the trees.

[Porcupine]

72. Lead shot is illegal in California. n/t.

.

[XemaSab]

149. Condors

They eat carcasses of animals that have been shot with lead.

Personally, I would like to see all lead shot banned. The stuff is a scourge on the environment.

[primavera]

56. Logic? Let's chat about that...

Concluding that the existence of two forces harmful to wild native populations justifies excusing the damage done by one of those two harmful forces is logical precisely how? Feral cats may not be the absolute most destructive factor in diminishing populations of wild bird species, but self-evidently their killing and eating birds isn't helping matters. Just look at the havoc that's been caused by the introduction of cats, ferrets, and other predators into island eco-systems populated by species which never needed to develop defenses to predation. I'm sorry, I know we like cats, so did the early European settlers who took them all over the world and introduced them into eco-systems where they would never have gone - and never should have gone - without our reckless and irresponsible assistance. How many times do we need to repeat this destructive experience before we learn from our mistakes?

Agreed, none of that let's us off the hook for polution and habitat destruction and our myriad other sins, but those admittedly numerous other sins likewise don't let us off the hook for responsibility for yet another of our sins, namely, introducing predatory species into ecosystems where they don't belong and which have no defense against them.

[Lasher]

58. Please consider this for perspective (warning: eradication methods graphically discussed)

Feral cats are directly responsible for a large percentage of global extinctions, particularly on islands. We reviewed feral cat eradication programs with the intent of providing information for future island conservation actions. Most insular cat introductions date from the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, whereas successful eradication programs have been carried out in the last 30 years, most in the last decade. Globally, feral cats have been removed from at least 48 islands: 16 in Baja California (Mexico), 10 in New Zealand, 5 in Australia, 4 in the Pacific Ocean, 4 in Seychelles, 3 in the sub-Antarctic, 3 in Macaronesia (Atlantic Ocean), 2 in Mauritius, and 1 in the Caribbean. The majority of these islands (75%; n= 36) are small (5 km2). The largest successful eradication campaign took place on Marion Island (290 km2), but cats have been successfully removed from only 10 islands (21%) of 10 km2. On Cousine Island (Seychelles) cat density reached 243 cats/km2, but on most islands densities did not exceed 79.2 cats/km2 ( n= 22; 81%). The most common methods in successful eradication programs were trapping and hunting (often with dogs; 91% from a total of 43 islands). Frequently, these methods were used together. Other methods included poisoning (1080; monofluoracetate in fish baits; n= 13; 31%), secondary poisoning from poisoned rats ( n= 4; 10%), and introduction of viral disease (feline panleucopaenia; n= 2; 5%). Impacts from cat predation and, more recently, the benefits of cat eradications have been increasingly documented. These impacts and benefits, combined with the continued success of eradication campaigns on larger islands, show the value and role of feral cat eradications in biodiversity conservation. However, new and more efficient techniques used in combination with current techniques will likely be needed for success on larger islands.

http://www.ingentaconnect.com/content/bsc/cbi/2004/00000018/00000002/art00007

[primavera]

73. Okay... and?

I'm sorry, I'm really not trying to be obtuse, but I'm not sure what point you were trying to make. Are you offering this description of the unpleasantries of feral cat eradication programs to stimulate sympathy for the persecuted status of feral cats or are you calling attention to the positive results for other species achieved by feral cat eradication efforts? Or neither, or something else altogether, none of the above? :shrug:

[Lasher]

133. OK, fair enough.

What I meant to convey were the realities of eradication methods that are being employed elsewhere, which beg the questions: If you think as I do that it is good that feral cats have been eradicated from other islands to protect native species, do you think our Mr. Stevenson is wrong to have attempted the same thing? If so, what's the difference?

I think Stevenson is doing something good. To deplore his method, without considering the potential suffering of the creatures that same cat would have eaten alive in their nests that same night, is unrealistic. The presence of rats poses a similar problem. I can't imagine such an uproar if he had shot one of them.

In this I hoped to provoke some rational introspection.

[flvegan]

63. Okay, let's

I didn't excuse damage done by one nor the other. I'm making a statement in context regarding an individual that shoots animals, not because he cares about all inclusive native populations. He's given his stamp of care on the birds that he LIKES. Problem is, Stevenson went with "want" rather than highest impact. Self gratification trumps the use of logic in many cases, as does anger.

[primavera]

74. Fair enough, my mistake

Pardon my two cents - I agree completely that hypocrisy doesn't help matters.

[XemaSab]

126. Here's the link to his group:

http://www.galvestonbirders.org/

[BikeWriter]

166. Any ecologist will tell you cats are a threat. There's the logic.

[Stepup2]

47. Shooting the cat is cruel imho

An effort to trap them and take them to the humane society would be the first place to start.

Catching cats that evade traps is an issue that could be solved without shooting them. maybe relo an owl or raptor into the vicinity...

I would like to fine people who allow cats to roam, or treat them as disposable pets. The money generated could be used to spay and re-home the cats.

I have several people in my neighborhood who could be issued fines.

[BikeWriter]

49. I have trapped and relocated cats (and gotten scars), there are...

dozens more go through my yard!

[Stepup2]

55. I don't have dozens

But I have a few that my dog has learned to keep out.

Are there solutions aside from shooting in your experience?

[BikeWriter]

167. How many feral cats do you want to confine, feed, and care for?...

I don't want any and most people have no use for them. We have to face our responsibility to ecology, and this includes controlling feral cats.

[Lasher]

62. You need a mighty big bird of prey to handle a cat.

I would say at least the size of a Red Tailed Hawk, which has a 4 foot wingspan.



And I doubt a cat would realize he is being treated humanely as he is carried off in a hawk's talons.

But seriously, feral cats are difficult to eradicate. Successful efforts on islands have included trapping, hunting with dogs, and poisoning. It's not fun to think about but when native species are endangered, all effective means of extermination are employed. Relatively inefficient methods, such as spaying or neutering then releasing, would doom a project to failure.

[BikeWriter]

191. It's sad there's little support from cat groups to end the suffering...

All most of them seem to do is prolong it by half-hearted measures like TNR.

[Lasher]

195. There will always be suffering

The hawks swoop down to catch a dove at my feeders. My wife is thrilled if the dove gets away but the hawk will starve if it doesn't catch something. My sympathy leans toward the raptors because their numbers are not as great as those of most of their prey. I have built a fence around my feeders to make it a little harder for the hawks (and cats, BTW). But if I remove the feeders, both the doves and the hawks, as well as lots of other species, will go hungry.

We don't need to put our compassion on hold, but I wish more people would engage their brains a little more to get beyond their Bambi views of nature. Putting out food for feral and stray cats, for example, helps perpetuate the cats' slaughter of birds and other small animals. I don't see how we could eliminate the feral/stray cat problem without strictly regulating ownership. That's not going to happen in my lifetime. Our best hope is to diminish the problem and therefore the suffering.

We can move in that direction by neutering and spaying our cats. But maybe we should also keep all of them indoors all the time, as you have said you do. The cat's life would not be as enjoyable, but it might be the right thing to do. It would be pretty hard to impose that on a cat that's used to going out whenever it pleases.

[madrchsod]

57. feral cats and wild dogs

can not be retrained to be house pets. they need to be killed in one way or another. every pit bull in detroit that the humane society gets is put to sleeps.why? because the bloodline is so contaminated that the animal can never be trusted to be around humans and the same goes for feral cats. if people are concerned about feral cats then don`t object when your town or city wants people to leash their cats as we have to do with dogs.if the owners of dogs and cats took responsibly of neutering their dogs and cats and leashing them we would`t have a problem in the future. in my opinion any method of ridding feral cats and wild dogs is fine with me.

[LeftyMom]

59. Oh goody, a pit bull genocide subthread. These get fun.

Who wants :popcorn: ? Your choice of Earth Balance or nutritional yeast.

[madrchsod]

76. earth balance any good?

[LeftyMom]

92. Yeah. It's actually more rich and buttery than any dairy-containing margarine I recall trying.

My mom, who is more than a bit of a food snob, will eat it and my sister keeps sneaking it when she thinks I'm not looking.

[madrchsod]

93. thanks

i`m going to try it..along with my feral cat and my adopted pit bull from detroit

[flvegan]

64. How did "wild dogs" transform into pit bulls (of which you know little about)?

Contaminated bloodline. Good one! Ignorant, yes, but it sounded good.

As for Detroit (I assume you mean the Michigan Humane Society), they euthanize pits because they are too plentiful, and the specific ones coming in are unpredictable. Largely, that's due to the overwhelming number of ASSHOLE PEOPLE that are promoting aggressiveness in them. The unregulated breeders are the cause, not the dogs.

[ET Awful]

67. Bingo! Astounding how much ignorance surrounds the topic of

so-called "pit bulls" isn't it?

As to the feral cat issue, I'll never condone shooting animals for the mere fact that human beings neglected them (or their parents). Killing a cat because it's mother was uncared for or abandoned by her original humans is downright evil, no matter how you look at it.

[madrchsod]

75. i know little about?

i got my info from animal cops detroit. the head of the agency stated that any pit bull that comes into their possession is put to death because of the interbreeding makes the dogs not fit to be adopted. of course it`s not the dogs fault or the fault of reliable breeders it the fault of the sick fucks who breed and watch dog fights. the same goes for people who dump dogs in the country then let the farmers deal with packs of wild dogs attacking their families or livestock.

[BikeWriter]

192. Get it done once, then maintaining the status quo would be simple.

[snooper2]

60. I feed "stray" cats...and I imagine they are feral, but who knows?

I have had my house for 2 years in the suburbs outside Dallas. There was kitten when I moved hanging around the back yard I named Scrappy, is very timid and hangs out on the property most all of the time. I was only able to pet him once. Since moving in, a few more cats come hang out once in a while. There is Orange-and-White kitty, a pretty large male who hangs out on my house's porch and 3 of my neighbors. The neighbor catty-coner :) to me puts some food and water out as well. Then there is Orange kitty, a huge cat that hangs around the same general area, note I am on a corner lot. The last cat that I see every couple days is Moustacha (prounounced: Moo-sta-sha), who has a funny looking face and eat's Scrappy's food sometimes.

So, does this make my neighbors and I bad contributers to society, I don't think so. These cats basically hang outside all the time and stay right in our little area of the neighborhood. I guess some people here would call them feral and shoot them on site. FYI, we put food out for the squirrels and have many birds hanging around also, but nothing dead yet at my front door.

(FYI, I have two cats, and with my girlfrind living with me we have 4 inside kitties, my cat Sam goes outside once a day for about an hour, but doesn't go farther than 10 feet from the outside of the house)

[BuelahWitch]

83. I'm a bad contributor to society too

I used to feed about 15 strays at one time. :hi: My own kitty stays inside. She likes to watch the birds, but I wouldn't let her catch one. It might make her sick...:hide:

[pitohui]

105. yes you are a bad person doing a bad thing

i'm sorry but i don't see how humoring you and pretending that what you do is right does anything but treat you like a baby

you are doing a bad thing

well fed feral cats do not sit and sleep all day, as solo predators they also hunt apparently for "practice" and to keep in tune, so you are actually just keeping them in better condition to kill our native birds

and yes there are native birds that migrate over detroit

the reason we don't see native birds almost everywhere is, to a large extend, feral cats!

[snooper2]

147. Well...

"well fed feral cats do not sit and sleep all day"

Interesting comment, I'll have to tell that to my girfriend for a laugh....I guess you imagine the "stray" cats that hang around our neighborhood are ravage beasts that scarf anything they can eat, stake out birds all hours of the day, and kill for fun left and right. Foam coming from the corners of the mouth and the whole bit. You need to stop watching so many cartoons. My girfriend will get a laugh out of this. Scrappy sleeps at least 20 hours a day, and all Orange and White kitty does is go from front porch to front porch sleeping and wanting his belly rubbed.

I guess you can come to Dallas and give a cat or two a good home. Or, you can call your Congressman and work to get a bill passed to kill all cats without a collar. Lastly, since this is a very local issue around the country, I guess it's really nobody's business what these cats do in our neighborhood except for the people who live in the neighborhood.

[BikeWriter]

169. Local? Not at all! Most birds are migratory. Your cats kill my birds!

[BikeWriter]

168. Thank you! You are right on target. :-)

[Ezlivin]

68. I let my cats watch birds, but never play with them

Of course they're little Russian Blues which means that a lot of birds are bigger than them!

[JudyM]

104. Great photo! n/t

[mitchtv]

71. It is an island

round them up cage them or kill them, but get them out of the environment. Sorry cat lovers, they gotta go, perferably by humane methods, but no ifs, ands, or buts.

[BikeWriter]

78. Galveston is also a stopping place for migrating birds...

many of which are exhausted when they get here. This makes them easier prey for the ferals.

[Zodiak]

139. Galveston also has the largest feral cat population

that I have ever seen.

I used to live there, and there were about 4 or 5 colonies of these animals.

Each colony was about 50-150 cats. They hunt in packs and hang out on the Eastern and western beaches of the island. It looks like the colony this guy was going for is the one by the Bolivar ferry. Last I saw that colony, it was the biggest at about 150 cats.

I thought they were living off of hermit and fiddler crabs (because the cats were always near the water). Maybe I was wrong.

[BikeWriter]

161. I live across the Bay, and yes, feral cats are in epidemic numbers...

Some people will not admit they affect the bird population until there are no, 0, zilch birds in the wild.

[brentspeak]

77. Cats have been oppressing birds for ages

Just as dogs have been oppressing cats for ages. Fight the power!! :silly:

[BikeWriter]

79. Cats are alien to the American continents.

[mitchtv]

80. Maybe an ocelot or two

could cure the problem...:evilgrin:

when I lived on four fenced acres my wolf hybrid left a spore that kept most feral cats away,occasionally she dispatched an interloper, although the nearby highway took care of most. She also protected the walnuts from squirrels.Our bird population blossomed. ( The vultures left soon after the neighbors replaced their cattle with vinyards)

[BikeWriter]

81. The feline distemper cats carry is deadly to cougar, lynx...

Bobcats, and Ocelots. One more reason they should not be in the wild.

[Lurking Dem]

86. Tell that to the puma

in the woods up the hill.

[BikeWriter]

88. I was refering to the domestic ones.

[Lurking Dem]

94. By definition

wouldn't that be true everywhere?

[BikeWriter]

97. The "common" cat has changed little from the wild ones...

...still extant in the Middle East and Asia. There are exceptions in the specialty breeds, of course.

[Lurking Dem]

110. Ah.

Thanks for the info!

[Pavulon]

82. Stupid and Illegal

First firing a weapon from a vehicle is dangerous. Anyone this stupid is probably not checking the background (where his shot is going) or confirming a kill. Would you want some ass firing a weapon where you could be hanging out?

A .22 is questionable for this purpose. It is a low velocity low energy round. Its effective range is short and the shot drops rapidly. Only the highest quality 22 rifles are capable of delivering a head shot on a small animal.

Most culling can be done with a suppressed higher power rifles like a 223 or 22-250 or a whisper rifle. These leave more room for error by carrying many times more energy. The animal does not bleed to death.

I have trapped feral cats, even the same one more than once by spraying the trap with cover scent (tuna juice) and disguising it. It can be done.

There is no reason to kill them, but if it has to be done it should be done by someone who knows the right way to do it.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

84. Personal Encounter with Feral Cat:

An old, gray, female cat took up quarters in our attic in order, as became apparent, to have a litter. She had found a way to get up the skinny linden tree in our back yard, and jump thence through the attic window, which we kept open during the summertime to facilitate cooling.

So she had her kits, and became very territorial. It became a problem around the household, because my mother has 38 grandchildren and 8 great-grandchildren, and the attic is a favorite haunt among the younger set to get away from the grownups and go exploring the old stuff up there. But the old cat would hiss and spit and threaten anyone who now attempted to enter therin. Mom asked me to remove the cat from the premises.

Now at the time, I worked in my brother's fledgling furniture factory. It was a very intense job - 12-14 hours a day, 6 days a week and then some, and I needed to get to work that morning. I put on my coveralls, grabbed the simple, small cage I had acquired, and went upstairs. I entered the attic and proceeded to the far end, planning to run the cat into the front bedroom where it would be cornered with no way to escape. My plan went Perfectly. I chased the grizzled old wretch into the bedroom and shut the door behind me, a gunnysack in my left hand.

It was midsummer in Sactown, and in that small room the temperature must have been 120F. I was sweating profusely, adrenaline pumping, as I eyed that cat across our close confines. She looked back at me with something like the 7th level of pure animal fear and rage, in total alarm, separated from the litter, and she knew I meant business.

All I needed to do was grab the cat and shove it into my burlap bag. She ran. But this was quite a small room, with a low ceiling and walls that angle in above the wainscoating. She darted into every corner, and under every piece of furniture in the house, and when she realized what long, strong arms I had, she went vertical, up the wall, across the ceiling, down the other wall, across the floor, and up the opposite wall once again. Several times. "A Ha", I said to myself, "I've got her just where I want her!" And the next time she passed in front of me, both of us in fugue states of agitation, I reached out and grabbed her by... the tail.

She instanly loosed her bowels and skratched the (epletive deleted) out of my arms but I hung on until I had that squirming, fighting, crazy dangerous cat in the bag.

I would go on with the denouement, but I am exhausted all over again just writing this much.

Bad cat.

[BikeWriter]

87. I salute a fellow wounded veteran of the feral cat wars!

:patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot::patriot:

[Tony Soprano]

90. I tried to catch one

in a vacant room at a school where I worked and I swear to God it jumped 8 feet high out an open window!

[Hissyspit]

129. I can't imagine why the cat was upset with you.

/sarcasm

[GoddessOfGuinness]

85. Why not trap them and remove them from the premesis?

I'm sure he could find feral cat devotees who would be happy to help.

And what about other predators that scavenge the birds and their eggs? Does this guy nab opossums, squirrels, rats, snakes, foxes and raccoons too?

[BikeWriter]

91. Birds have evolved to survive those predators. Not so with cats.

[Tony Soprano]

89. If I could get to Galveston

I'd choke this bastard with my bare hands.

[DemExpat]

95. I think something should be done to protect the birds.

I have loved and nurtured dogs, cats and birds, so value them all equally from personal experience, but some kind of natural balance needs to be re-created here, and I'm afraid that is in the disadvantage of the hungry feral cat.
:-(

Individuals going out and shooting them is not the way either, IMO.

DemEx

[BikeWriter]

98. Here's an excellent site of a reformed "Cat Woman."

Slowly I had to come to the realization that by allowing my barn cats to roam free, I was placing a higher value on their freedom than on the life of the animals they killed. In the early 1990's, I stopped allowing my cats to venture outdoors. The diversity of birds in that neighborhood still has not recovered and maybe never will. I know that other factors may have contributed to this decline, but I cannot disregard the impact from my ignorance.
I hope that within my lifetime kingbirds and meadowlarks will patrol those rolling Michigan farm fields once again. I hope the summer dawns there will again be accompanied by a range of songs so varied that even the most experienced bird watcher will be challenged to distinguish individual birds by ear.
http://www.matrifocus.com/LAM02/earth.htm

[Anakin Skywalker]

96. LIAR! This Scumbag and the Others Want to Kill the Birds Themselves!

This is AN OLD, TIRED "EXCUSE". The cats are just strawmen.

[pitohui]

99. god bless mr stevenson

it took a lot of courage to stand up for the birds

feral cats are not an endangered species, they are a plague that kill our birds at their most vulnerable -- at time of fledgling or when they are exhausted from migration, there is nothing noble about the feral cat which hunts for pleasure and "practice" as much as good

we have 20 percent of the warblers population-wise that we had in 1960 -- the fact that most of them have nowhere safe to go is the number one reason

texas gulf coast is too important of a migratory and wintering ground to let the harassment of mr. stephenson stand

there is also a substantial tourist industry bringing people from all over the usa and europe to spend their $$$ on the gulf coast of texas -- and these folks come to see migratory birds, not another feral cat

we must control these pests and we should salute, not persecute, the heroes who take a stand even in face of cat worship hysteria

our worship of cats will doom our small birds

the feral cat feeders need to be fined under the migratory bird act, $20,000 per bird killed, some of these individuals are responsible for the death of dozens of small birds every year


the cat is not native to north america and our birds have no defenses against it, it is our duty and our responsibility to control the pests we have set out in this land

[Pavulon]

103. He is a moron

firing a weapon from a vehicle in a populated area. If you or your kid stopped a 22 ricochet, is he still a hero? How many animals has he lung or gut shot that crawled off to die?

What he did is illegal and stupid. I will shoot predatory(non domestic) animals in a rural area. I do not do so with out permission, I do not use a .22 for anything. It is inhumane for anything larger than a squirrel. There is no way to humanely kill an animal from a vehicle with no rest by making a head shot.

He did not stand up, he broke the law and put others at risk by being an idiot.

[pitohui]

106. have you even been to this area?

he didn't put anyone to risk, sheesh, get over yourself

[Tony Soprano]

108. According to your own post...

there is a "substantial tourist industry" One of them might catch one of this cowboys stray slugs. But I'm not going to get into a 'cat' fight with you over it.

[Pavulon]

111. No, but killing domestic animals

(domestic meaning any domesticated animal) leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I will not do it, even where it is legal, because it is generally un necessary.

I have killed feral pigs on the coast (they dig up turtle nests) and various farm pests. But never in an area that put others at risk. Firing a rifle where people could be is inherently dangerous.

I have trapped plenty of feral cats and most of my house cats were feral kittens.

I am pretty sure if someone was firing a weapon within earshot of you in a public area you would not be happy.

[BikeWriter]

119. Excuse me. I know the area in question. It's one of the remotest...

...spots on the Island.

[Zodiak]

140. Is it?

The witness worked in a toll booth. Isn't there a toll booth by the Bolivar ferry?

Or was this past West beach?

[BikeWriter]

159. This was supposedly out by San Luis Pass.

The ferry has no toll booth.

[Zodiak]

164. Thanks for letting me know

No..there is no toll for Bolivar, but I seem to remember a little booth.....no matter. It's been about 10 years, now.

[Tony Soprano]

107. Great point!

and I have a salute for pitoui (sp?) I bet you know the one, haha....

[NorthernSpy]

124. board up the windows of your house, if you really want to save birds...

And throw away your birdfeeders, while you're at it.

http://www.birderblog.com/bird/Conservation/PartI/05-Windows.html

Cats preferentially kill grounded birds -- the slow, the weak and the diseased -- because these are easier to catch. Your windows are more likely to kill the strong and swift.

And don't bother telling me about your flashtape decorations or hawk silhouette cutouts: those don't really work. They just exist to make "bird lovers" feel better about plopping their "big-windowed" dream house on a chunk of what used to be a productive natural habitat.

[XemaSab]

127. Many songbirds are EXHAUSTED after the flight over the gulf

There are times when warblers and other songbirds are literally crawling on the ground they are so tired.

So no, cats don't just kill sick birds, they kill tired but otherwise healthy birds that just want a chance to rest before continuing north.

ps I have had perfect success with stickers on the windows. :D

[NorthernSpy]

132. name me ONE of our native songbirds made extinct by cats...

You can't do it. There isn't one.

Meanwhile, ordinary window glass kills as many as a BILLION birds each year in this country alone. Windows are thought to be the number one direct cause of bird kills today.

You don't see dead birds under your windows? Well, sometimes nature's cleaners happen along to dispatch the wounded. That would be the much reviled cat, among others.


Look. Even if it were necessary in some situations to keep cats away from migratory birds, let's keep this in mind: cats are an associate species of our own. They stick close to human habitations, and they thrive in ecosystems distorted by the presence of humans. The key to keeping cats out of an ultra-sensitive habitat is to keep the humans out -- way out.

That means no tourists allowed, and no bird-watching opportunities.

Which means that all those who presume to "love" birds must agree to leave their objects of admiration truly in peace, without even momentarily possessing them with their eyes.

[theHandpuppet]

134. We need to face the facts about feral cats

And yes, I have taken in feral cats, had them spayed and neutered and adopted into loving homes. Unfortunately, the number of feral cats has become epidemic and releasing them back into the wild, even after spaying/neutering isn't stopping the slaughter of native and endangered species.

From: http://www.napa.ufl.edu/2003news/feralcat.htm

"The number of feral cats in the United States is estimated to be 40 million to 60 million, said Hatley, who works with the University’s Conservation Clinic, which was commissioned by the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service to determine the applicability of federal, state and local wildlife laws to the practice of releasing cats into the wild and maintaining feral cat colonies. Compounding the problem is that another 40 million domestic cats nationwide also roam outside, hunting and killing small animals.

"For example, the Lower Florida Keys marsh rabbit is a federal endangered species with a remaining population of about 100 to 300. A 1999 study found free-roaming cats were responsible for 53 percent of the deaths of these rabbits in one year, and a 2002 study indicated the species could be extinct within two or three decades, Hatley said.

"Cats also have been recognized as instinctive predators and a serious threat to the Key Largo cotton mouse, Key Largo woodrat, Choctawhatchee beach mouse, Perdido Key beach mouse, green sea turtle, roseate tern, least tern and Florida scrub jay, she said.

"Cat predation also is a serious problem in California and Hawaii, where, like Florida, the climate is ideal for cats to survive outside and breed year-round. As a result, endangered animals, such as the Hawaiian goose, California brown pelican and blunt nosed leopard lizard also face additional threats.

“There are some 15 million cats in Florida which spend all or part of their time outside preying on wildlife,” Hatley said. “It is estimated that cats kill as many as 271 million small mammals and 68 million birds each year in Florida, many of these members of threatened and endangered species.”

And from http://www.audubon.org/bird/cat/

"The American Bird Conservancy* has launched a citizen education and action campaign to end the massive and unnecessary loss of birds and other wildlife to predation by domestic cats. Scientists estimate that free-roaming cats (owned, stray, and feral) kill hundreds of millions of birds and possibly more than a billion small mammals in the U.S. each year. Cats kill not only birds that frequent our backyards, such as the Eastern Towhee, American Goldfinch, and Song Sparrow, but also WatchList species such as the Snowy Plover, Wood Thrush, and Black-throated Blue Warbler, and endangered species such as the Least Tern and Piping Plover. Not only are birds and other wildlife at risk, but cats who roam free often lead short and painful lives, living on average less than 5 years, whereas indoor cats often live to 17 or more years of age."

And from http://www.thepetcenter.com/imtop/speaker3.html

"Despite the difficulties in showing the effect most predators have on their prey, cats are known to have serious impacts on small mammals and birds. Worldwide, cats may have been involved in the extinction of more bird species than any other cause, except habitat destruction. Cats are contributing to the endangerment of populations of birds such as Least Terns, Piping Plovers and Loggerhead Shrikes. In Florida, marsh rabbits in Key West have been threatened by predation from domestic cats. Cats introduced by people living on the barrier islands of Florida's coast have depleted several unique species of mice and woodrats to near extinction.

"Not only do cats prey on many small mammals and birds, but they can outnumber and compete with native predators. Domestic cats eat many of the same animals that native predators do. When present in large numbers, cats can reduce the availability of prey for native predators, such as hawks and weasels.

"Free-ranging domestic cats may also transmit new diseases to wild animals. Domestic cats have spread feline leukemia virus to mountain lions and may have recently infected the endangered Florida Panther with feline panleukopenia (feline distemper) and an immune deficiency disease. These diseases may pose a serious threat to this rare species. Some free-ranging domestic cats also carry several diseases that are easily transmitted to humans, including rabies and toxoplasmosis."

And from http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2004/09/0907_040907_feralcats_2.html

"Feline predators are believed to prey on common species, such as cardinals, blue jays, and house wrens, as well as rare and endangered species, such as piping plovers and Florida scrub jays.

"For more than ten years, Jurek says, feral and domestic cats have been a persistent problem in California, killing one or two colonies of least terns each year. The small white birds are part of an intense monitoring program with a tremendous number of volunteers who watch the colonies throughout the six-month nesting season.

"If a cat finds the colony, it can destroy the colony in a few days, if not overnight," Jurek said.

[Bridget Burke]

138. Since habitat destruction is the #1 bird killer--why not shoot developers?

(Note: I don't own a gun.)

[theHandpuppet]

143. There is no either/or here

Human overpopulation is the number one danger to the world's ecosystem. People who ignore this fact and continue to churn out families of multiple children must bear some responsibility for what humankind's out-of-control numbers require of our stressed planet: more destruction of habitat, more pollution of our land, air and seas, more sucking dry the world's resources, more highways, automobiles, subdivisions, strip malls, et al. Developers wouldn't have a market if irresponsible humans would control their numbers. Increasing numbers of people require even more housing.

Yet that hard reality does not negate the fact that the feral cat population is also way out of control and is devastating some fragile ecosystems.

[NorthernSpy]

153. in other words, blame for species endangerment -- like shit -- rolls downhill...

Give me a break. Even if you took cats completely out of the equation, those species would still be in swift decline. Encroachment and habitat destruction by humans are the cause of the problem. It's just easier to blame tabby than it is to convince to humans that we should stop forcing our noxious presence on fragile ecosystems. Cats are powerless; the kind of people likely to build that all-important Dream Home on critical habitat in the Florida Keys -- aren't.


And besides: as the Macquarie island disaster demonstrates, taking a predator like cats out of the ecosystem can make things worse for threatened species. In the Macquarie case, the species intended to be the beneficiaries of cat eradication have instead fallen victim to the destruction caused by hardy, highly fertile pest populations -- pests that had made up the majority of the late cat population's diet.


All too often, people don't really understand they ecosystems that they believe themselves to be "saving".




(edit: supplied missing word 'the')

[theHandpuppet]

155. If you'd read my post #143

You might have given second thought to what you just posted.

Edited to add: Of course I'm just assuming you've done your bit to curb human overpopulation, since you didn't respond to my other post, #135, which you can find near the end of this thread.

[NorthernSpy]

158. I don't have kids, if that's what you were driving at...

And I plan to leave the timberland that I will inherit completely intact and unmolested. That's not much in the scheme of things, but at least that one piece of forested watershed -- with those big trees, and the stream, and all the plants and animals and SONGBIRDS who live there -- will never be destroyed (knock wood!).

[theHandpuppet]

163. Well then we have that in common, don't we

Since we both agree that human overpopulation poses the greatest threat to this planet, why can't we agree that the overpopulation of ANY species -- especially non-native species -- is a threat to the balance of the ecosystem? This is not an either/or argument here. Just because I believe that something must be done about the out-of-control feral cat population doesn't mean I don't fully support zero population growth (for humans) or that I live in a burb, blabbing on a cellphone while driving a Hummer. Quite the opposite is true. But when I see our already stressed ecosystem thrown out of balance by an overpopulation of any species, be that human or feline or whatever -- then it makes sense that something must be done. This DOESN'T mean that idiots should drive around shooting feral cats, but we need to get serious about the problem just as we should get serious about addressing human overpopulation.

[BikeWriter]

180. You want to wait until the birds are extinct before taking action?

That's not logical at all. They are threatening a number of species!

[Dr Fate]

109. This is very common and legal in Australia.

I love cats and own 3, but I saw a show on the Australian outback, where it has become a big problem- un-checked feral cats killing endangered mammals, birds, lizards, etc.

[Pavulon]

112. Legal and outback being key

I am a sportsman and grew up in the country. I do not have a problem with guns or dispatching pests. However people who do illegal and stupid things with weapons are a problem. I am wholly intolerant of people who put other people at risk with weapons.

That being said it is legal in some states to kill feral dogs and cats. I personally do not consider this sporting. However if it is legal and done safely more power to those who do.

People are the problem with feral animals. Unlike prairie dogs, crows, or ground hogs they did not show up, people caused the problem.

[BikeWriter]

120. Yes, they are horrible here.

[NorthernSpy]

130. "Isle of Devastation": extermination of cats drives Macquarie Island to ecological collapse

http://www.news.com.au/mercury/story/0,22884,20623171-5007221,00.html

Taking cats out of an ecosystem can be a recipe for disaster:

The problem of an explosion in rabbit and rodent populations since the eradication of feral cats in the 1990s is rapidly turning the sub-Antarctic jewel into a wasteland.

(...)

Macquarie Island, in the Southern Ocean between Tasmania and Antarctica, was recently the focus of a cat-eradication program.

Removal of cats, however, left a niche for rabbits.

An important breeding ground for about four million seabirds, much of the island is now bare. It is estimated it will cost about $15 million to remove rats and rabbits.

Get that? Macquarie -- recently an ecological "jewel" -- is nearing environmental collapse. Rabbits have defoliated the island, and rats have destroyed endangered birds. The ecosystem was far better off before government "experts" barged in to "save" it.

But the government experts aren't out of ideas yet. They have a bold, innovative plan: more exterminations! And don't miss this (this is the "innovative" part): they hope to charge Australian fishermen new fees to pay for this latest round of eradication schemes. Who says gummint bureaucrats can't think outside the box?

Thing is, there have been many, many rat and rabbit eradication campaigns already, and in the long run, they've failed. The cats were performing a valuable role on Macquarie, and now these cat-hating "experts" cannot bear to admit that they simply did not understand the situation at all. They cannot admit that they've created a disaster.


I get the feeling that a lot of bird lovers tend to be "fluffy bunny" types who devalue the role of predators in the ecosystem. That much is clear from the downright hysterical language they use to vilify cats. But it just may be that even in delicate environments, an introduced predator like the cat may be needed for continued suppression of enormously destructive and eradication-resistant pest species.

[Coventina]

144. I just love all the posters blaming cats for a HUMAN created problem

Maybe if we weren't wasting brazillions of dollars in Iraq, we could actually do something about the overpopulation of cats and dogs in this country.

[BikeWriter]

171. Yes, and we humans must control feral cats!

[Coventina]

196. No argument from me. But shooting them with a .22 isn't the way.

Heavy fines for those that let their cats breed. Agressive capture programs for ferals. Expanding low-cost spay/neuter programs. The problem can be tackled from different angles.

[BikeWriter]

197. Most of which will be radically opposed by cat groups until...

we have silent springs.

[Lurking Dem]

145. .

Just wanted to say "thank you" for your posts in this thread.

[NorthernSpy]

154. thank you!

My cat was once a stray. I'm glad that no one managed to put a bullet in him before I had a chance to take him in.


>^_^<

[XemaSab]

151. That's funny... I get the feeling cat lovers are "fluffy bunny" types

I've seen animals kill each other, and trust me, being shot with a gun is a more humane alternative than dying a "wild" death.

Furthermore, arguing that cats replace native predators doesn't hold any water with me. They compete with native predators and prey on animals that have no natural defenses.

[BikeWriter]

172. Brava!

[BikeWriter]

177. Cats are an u-n-n-a-t-u-r-a-l predator here. We have plenty of...

natural ones.

[Nevernose]

118. Get your cats spayed/neutered

Please?

[NorthernSpy]

123. I bet this SOB's "big-windowed house" has taken out more birds...

... than poor tabby ever did. Window panes are one of the biggest killers of birds around.

And speaking of common things that harm birds, bird feeders are notorious for spreading disease; food sources are not so concentrated in nature, and more contact among individual birds equals more opportunities for the spread of pathogens.


We all know that the birds would be better off if we didn't try to entice them into close proximity with us and each other. But what's the point of songbirds, if not to entertain humans? So bird lovers are going to keep their picture windows and their birdfeeders, no matter what harm they may do.

Bird lovers do not value birds; they value their own access to birds.


I can't think of a single bird species in North America that was driven to extinction by cats -- and neither can anyone else. But "bird lovers" are no more willing than most of us to give up their picture windows, and bird feeders, and cars, and golf courses, and pesticides, and modern agriculture, and "eco-power" windmills, and cell-phone towers, and tacky "dream house" subdivisions on land that many species used to call home.

So some of them shoot at cats. They'd accomplish more for nature by shooting themselves.

[theHandpuppet]

135. Well, let's see...

I have an organic garden and buy pesticide-free products, don't play golf or have a swimming pool, drive an economy vehicle, don't own a cellphone, and eschewed the suburban mini-manse lifestyle for a more satisfying life in a working class neighborhood in town. Oh, and I've done my bit by not breeding, recognizing that human overpopulation is the greatest threat to the ecosystem of this planet. You?

Of course, I still recognize that the feral cat problem is epidemic and a danger to countless native species, including endangered species. Denying that would be as irrational as denying the problem of human overpopulation.

[Ilsa]

150. HAs anyone considered whether the feral cats might also be

helping to protect the bird population by eating up the rats and mice that attract snakes, which might also feed on smaller birds?

One of the best things I know of for getting rid of poisonous snakes is to keep a feral cat around to cut down on the snake-attracting rodent population.

[snooper2]

152. I just wish they would eat fire ants...

:)

[BikeWriter]

178. They're another alien pest. One that has killed out horned toads.

[mitchtv]

156. snakes should not be eliminated

if they are native. Rats and mice are as much of a danger, probably more.

[BikeWriter]

160. Snakes and rats are also native species. Feral cats are not.

[theHandpuppet]

162. So are the native predators who feed on mice and rats

Native predators are on the decline because their primary food sources -- such as small mammals like rodents -- are being decimated by feral cat populations.

[BikeWriter]

173. You're right. They are an unnatural competitor, and have an advantage....

The people enabling them to decimate our natural wildlife!

[NorthernSpy]

165. cats have been here for over four centuries, as long as honeybees have..

That's long enough. Many of our "native" fauna came here from somewhere else at some time within human memory.

Cats are hardly a new, invasive species in North America. After 400 years and more, cats have indeed become part of the current balance, whether cat-haters like this or not. Wanting to sacrifice this centuries-old population to some abstract notion of North-American "purity" is just ignorant fanaticism.

[BikeWriter]

170. Our birds are being killed out faster than they can adapt! Read this!

Slowly I had to come to the realization that by allowing my barn cats to roam free, I was placing a higher value on their freedom than on the life of the animals they killed. In the early 1990's, I stopped allowing my cats to venture outdoors. The diversity of birds in that neighborhood still has not recovered and maybe never will. I know that other factors may have contributed to this decline, but I cannot disregard the impact from my ignorance.
I hope that within my lifetime kingbirds and meadowlarks will patrol those rolling Michigan farm fields once again. I hope the summer dawns there will again be accompanied by a range of songs so varied that even the most experienced bird watcher will be challenged to distinguish individual birds by ear.
http://www.matrifocus.com/LAM02/earth.htm

[theHandpuppet]

174. I'm really at a loss at how to discuss this rationally with you

Folks in favor of addressing any reasonable solution to the feral cat population get labeled as cat-haters, people who ignore the real problem of human overpopulation, people who live in gated communities and yak on their cellphones all day in their never-ending quest to displace wild places, et al. You don't seem to even be willing to say that a problem might exist, much less discuss a solution.

Whatever. There are all kinds of fanaticism and as with most intractable viewpoints, discussion at some point becomes, well... pointless.

[crispini]

175. OMG! Cats vs. Birds and it's not in the lounge!

I am remembering that earlier thread and I am not touching this one with a ten foot pole.

[BikeWriter]

176. If you mention pit bulls or corn flakes I'm telling!

:evilgrin:

[Anakin Skywalker]

179. Humans Created the Feral Cat Problems in the First Place, You Idiot!

[BikeWriter]

181. Yes, and we should responsibly correct that, too. I'm trapping all I can...

Are you?

[flvegan]

184. And doing what with them?

The cats you've trapped. Finding good homes for them, I trust?

[BikeWriter]

185. I take the adults to the SPCA. The kittens I found homes for.

[flvegan]

186. Big applause!

Good for you. I trust the SPCA finds homes for the adoptable adults, as well.

Keep up the great work. (see, you and I agree from time to time)

[BikeWriter]

187. On a few subjects. I still think a concerted effort...

...could remove the majority of the feral population before the extinction of dozens of wild animal species forces the government to intervene.

[Atmashine]

189. How many worms did these cats save?

Worms are people too.