Radiation found on 2 British Airway jetliners

[deminks]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/11/29/uk.spy.ba.ap/index.html

LONDON, England (AP) -- Authorities found small traces of radiation on two British Airways 767 jetliners Wednesday, as investigators widened their search for clues into the poisoning death of former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko.

Home Secretary John Reid disclosed the search following a meeting with COBRA, the government's emergency committee. Reid said two planes had been tested so far and that another would be tested.

The initial results of the forensic tests had shown very low traces of a radioactive substance onboard two aircraft, British Airways said in a statement.

The company added that the investigation is confined to the three planes, which will remain out of service until further notice.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Warpy]

4. Yep, and I'll bet they're suspecting exactly what I did

that it came through in small amounts via diplomatic courier. There is no other way for bags to get through customs uninspected.

Since Polonium-210 has such a short half life (5 days), they'd have to get it in from the point of origin (a nuclear reactor) very quickly to maintain its toxicity.

All they have to do is start researching those passenger lists from those planes and they'll have nailed down the responsible government.

Anyone want to start a Poison Pool?

[MidwestTransplant]

6. Why did the above message get deleted? You know?

[Warpy]

8. Ask the mods

[nashville_brook]

9. my uncle, a research chemist said this:

"I think the key point in Litvinenko's death is that the isolation of Polonium 210 is something that only the most sophisticated labs can do. It had to be a government somewhere. Don't rule out Israel's having an involvement as there was also a connection there."

i had not heard of an israeli connection...

[dipsydoodle]

11. A nuclear physicist was interviewed on UK TV news

a couple of days back and he confirned that the type of Polonium used was a very specific high grade form that as you say could only have come from a government laboratory or similar. There is nothing whatsover as yet to substantiate any claims against Russia other by association.

He also mentioned it's life and that if the guy hadn't died it would have passed from his system with 3 weeks or so. he went on to mention that the autopsy would pose problems given that the material had not had the time to pass from his system.

[nashville_brook]

14. such a specific poison. it's ballsy, like leaving a calling card.

[Warpy]

20. ....which means it is likely a warning to other KGB agents

doing the same sort of work, or in the case of Russia, starting to talk.

[Warpy]

19. I hadn't, either, but it's certainly possible

The word is that he was a Chechnya expert, but the one thing you can say about spies is that they and everybody around them lies about stuff like that.

The list of countries with sophisticated enough nuclear labs is a pretty short one. Chechnya isn't on it.

[Ian David]

26. Me neither. Some people are just really eager to see Jews behind everything.

Maybe ask your uncle if he's related to Mel Gibson?

[muriel_volestrangler]

16. 138 days half life, not 5

http://periodic.lanl.gov/elements/84.html

which does make some difference in your scenario. Also, since it's an alpha emitter, and thus extremely easily shielded, I think it would be quite easy to smuggle it.

[Warpy]

21. That's weird, a week ago all those sources said 5 days.

Whichever it is, if luggage had been searched, the searchers might have been contaminated if they'd opened a container to sniff whatever that powder inside was.

My original point about diplomatic courier stands because interception would have been disastrous.

Plus, the list of nuclear facilities that can produce it is a short one.

[muriel_volestrangler]

25. But such small amounts were involved

that the container could look like almost anything. It might be transported in solution (it says "readily dissolved in dilute acids", which could easily then be added to various foods or drinks in a small amount. All you need is a waterproof container. If they sniffed a container with a pure powder of polonium in, they might be a bit suspicious already - "half a gram reaches a temperature above 500C".

I agree that it would need to be produced at a nuclear facility.

Possibly they were talking about the half life of thallium 201:

How would polonium-210 be used to kill someone?

Clearly it has to be added to the food or drink of the intended victim but that does not present a problem because so little is needed. There are soluble compounds of polonium and the easiest way to deliver a fatal dose would be in a cup of tea, as has been suggested.


What would poisoners have to watch out for?

Because alpha-particles are easily stopped by nothing more substantial than a sheet of paper, handling a polonium compound does not present a serious risk to a secret agent. No doubt such a person would have some method of concealing the poison (James Bond style) before using it.

...

Has anybody else been poisoned in this way in the past?

Not deliberately to my knowledge. Ironically, Irène Joliot-Curie, the daughter of Marie Curie who first isolated polonium, died because of it but her exposure was accidental. It happened when a sealed capsule of polonium exploded in her laboratory bench many years earlier. It was this which finally led to her death from leukemia in 1956 although the accident had occurred a decade earlier.


How was it tested for, why did it take this long to figure it out, and how could it have been confused with thallium?

It appears that the doctors at University College Hospital first assumed that Litvinenko had been poisoned with thallium because all his hair fell out and that is the tell-tale symptom of poisoning by this metal and occurs after about 10 days. However, analysis showed there were only trace amount of thallium in his blood so it was then assumed he’d been poisoned with thallium-201 a radioactive form with a half life of 3 days. He was radioactive, and eventually it was deduced that he had been poisoned with polonium-210, which can be identified from the radiation it emits. Hair loss is also a symptom of exposure to high levels of radiation.

Royal Society of Chemistry

[mike_c]

2. what is the source, I wonder...?

The article does not actually say that the source was polonium-210, the element used to poison Litvinenko. There are lots of other radioactive isotopes. Like plutonium in suitcase bombs-- which one would not expect to be dribbling out into cargo holds, but still....

[flyarm]

3. they must be looking for a very specific radiation...

and specific aircraft..

as a retired ( now) flight crew i have often had ground personel come on board before passengers were boarded and seen the cabin checked for radiation..possibly from a specific cargo that was carried..we were never told the reason for the checks but i have seen it happen numerous times..

..so i would tend to believe a very specific check was being done for a specific type of radiation

just my 2 cents..

fly

[spinbaby]

5. I wonder how they'll react to this?

The bogus liquid-bomb threat resulted in no liquids followed by only teeny liquids in Zip-Lock bags. Traces of radiation will probably result in something equally preposterous. Maybe we'll all have to strip down and wear Zip-Lock bags after they explode our luggage.

[applegrove]

7. I once heard a story about a family that bought a home near a nuclear

reactor. They went for a very old home... not wanting anything that was built on a nuclear dump or such. Turns out their home was lived in by a nuclear scientist for years a generation before. And their was a pattern of radiation that led through the front door to the shower every - the scientists routine every night. This was years later that they had the readings done. Think it is a true story.

Perhaps this trail will lead directly to the culprits and somebody will go to jail. We can only hope. What a strange and dangerous world it is!

[nashville_brook]

10. the creepiest part of that for me is that the shower removed it

i don't know why, but that bugs the hell out of me.

[applegrove]

12. It was a long time ago that I heard the story. I may have forgotten that part.

But don't they scrub down people with radiation poisoning? like in Silkwood? I don't even know what years the scientist took his work home with him. Could have been before they knew how dangerous it was. Perhaps the scientist was working at the turn of the century and the nuclear plant came later. Was somewhere in Ontario. I was a child when I heard it.

[nashville_brook]

15. yep, and it's what they did on the ships of servicemen who "observed" Bikini

there's archival footage of excited young men being hosed-off after the light show. i bet this is the memory that makes that tidbit creepy.

later in the Bikini documentary the showed some of the survivors of the tests. one man developed a condition later in life that made his hands swell up like souffles.

[notadmblnd]

23. did you know that years ago, they painted watch faces

radioactive paint? The women in the factories would get terrible cancers. I imagine they took that stuff home with them too, on their clothes, hands, faces etc. I'd bet we'd be surprised how many homes still standing that were built during our early industrial days that are contaminated.

[applegrove]

27. This house was apparently a grey stone farmhouse thing. A real find.

[dipsydoodle]

13. What about your own "Boy Scout" David Hahn

What happened when a teenager tried a dangerous experiment in his back yard.

http://www.dangerouslaboratories.org/radscout.html

[applegrove]

17. I read an article on that. Scary.

[daleo]

18. This could mean anything

"The initial results of the forensic tests had shown very low traces of a radioactive substance onboard two aircraft, British Airways said in a statement."

Or it could mean nothing at all.

[ret5hd]

22. An aircraft mechanic accidentally busted a lavatory smoke detector...

that's my bet.

on edit: or an exit sign.

[BlueCollar]

24. 2 smoke detectors on 3 planes?

please...

[truthisfreedom]

28. intesting theory, but have you ever tried to open up one of those sensors?

as a kid i tried to open up the sensor on a smoke detector to see how it worked, and i never did get the metal cover off, although i hacked away at it for quite a while with a pair of wire snippers. the radioactive component inside the metal box is quite well shielded and really takes a lot to get exposed.

[LTR]

29. Passengers alerted as radiation traces found on planes in spy death probe

Passengers have been asked to come forward for possible testing, after radiation traces were found on two BA planes linked to the death of former Russian spy Alexander Litvinenko.

The BA 767 planes operate on routes within Europe and up to 800 passengers on four flights may have been affected.

A statement from the airline said: "BA has been advised that three of its Boeing 767 short haul aircraft have been identified by the UK Government as part of the investigation into the death of Alexander Litvinenko.

"The airline was contacted last night by the Government. It has taken the three B767s out of service to enable forensic examination to be carried out.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=419497&in_page_id=1770&ct=5