Dems want confederate flag off S.C. grounds

[Judi Lynn]

Dems want confederate flag off S.C. grounds
Democrats honor Martin Luther King legacy at holiday events
Updated: 1 hour, 42 minutes ago

COLUMBIA, S.C. - Sen. Joseph Biden, a Democratic presidential hopeful joining fellow Sen. Christopher Dodd at Martin Luther King Jr. holiday events, said Monday he thinks the Confederate flag should be kept off South Carolina's Statehouse grounds.

"If I were a state legislator, I'd vote for it to move off the grounds - out of the state," the Delaware senator said before the civil rights group held a march and rally at the Statehouse here to support its boycott of the state.

In Chicago, Sen. Barack Obama, also prominently mentioned in speculation about the White House sweepstakes in 2008, was a hit at a Rainbow/PUSH Coalition breakfast honoring King, even if he didn't deliver what much of the crowd clearly wanted: a declaration that he will run for president.

Obama received a standing ovation at the annual King scholarship breakfast when the Rev. Jesse Jackson introduced him with an approving reference to the Illinois Democrat's presidential aspirations.
(snip/...)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16637019/

[rodeodance]

1. oh good gawd-I thought flag issues were repug issues!

[Hobarticus]

2. Notice how they spontaneously turned Biden into "Dems"

Niiiiiiize.....

[MADem]

3. Chris Dodd, who's running too, and is mentioned, is a Democrat.... NT

[Hobarticus]

20. Okay, so technically, they are "dems", plural...

Ya got me there, podner.

[dogfacedboy]

39. RE: That photo in your post.

As far back as '90/'91, we threatened to kick a dude out of my band when he showed up to a rehearsal with a haircut like that! Two days later he had a new 'do. B)

[itsmesgd]

4. forget the flaggots, 100 hours tick tock

de-escalate, investigate, troops home now. This is why my hatred for the dems is growing exponentially. We put them in power to pass OUR agenda, not bitch about stupid flag issues. Our troops are dying, our pres is violating the constitution daily. fuck the flags do your job (dems) or we will toss you out of office next election.

[jarab]

9. You're correct.

There are imminent life-or-death issues to deal with first ... as promised.
...O...

[fishwax]

17. wow. your hatred for democrats grows exponentially because a couple of them raised

the issue of the confederate flag still flying at the local statehouse while meeting with civil rights groups on a national holiday honoring one of the foremost civil rights figure in our nation's history?

Seems a pretty low level for outrage. :eyes:

[MADem]

23. And they're both Presidential candidates, and this whole flag thing WAS an issue in the last

go-round. Wasn't it a weak spot for McCain? This is an early Southern throwdown, seems to me....

[fishwax]

27. the McCain thing rings a bell

I can't remember for sure though. South Carolina caused him problems in general--isn't that where the "mysterious" anonymous fliers advertising his non-white children appeared?

[MADem]

36. Here--during the first BushCo election theft.

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/04/19/mccain.sc/index.html

Apologetic McCain calls for removal of Confederate battle flag from S.C. Statehouse
Arizona senator urges Congress to heed call for reform
April 19, 2000
Web posted at: 6:10 p.m. EDT (2210 GMT)

COLUMBIA, South Carolina (CNN) -- Former GOP presidential candidate John McCain called for the removal of the Confederate battle flag from atop the South Carolina Statehouse on Wednesday, acknowledging that his refusal to take such a stance during his primary battle for the Palmetto State was a "sacrifice of principle for personal ambition."
Sen. John McCain returned to South Carolina on Wednesday and called for the removal of the Confederate battle flag from the Statehouse. ....

[Toots]

19. Stupid flag issues

Your post shows you have not a clue. Hell let's bring back the swastika and place it on government property so we can show the Jews how government feels about them..

[LanternWaste]

25. I don't see this as an either-or concern at all

I don't see this as an either-or concern at all. Congressmen and Senators can (and do) easily maintain numerous issue w/o de-emphasizing another one.

As a matter of fact, I would have serious concerns with any official (or person, for that matter) who is able to facilitate merely one bill/resolution/issue at a time.

Do you actually think that raising one issue de-values (or, at the very least reduces the efforts of) another issue?

[dogfacedboy]

40. The Confederate flag belonged to a foreign enemy.

I have never understood why it hasn't been outlawed nationally. I guess it falls under freedom of speech. Still, 140 years later, it's certainly not a flag and legacy I would be proud of.

[TheCowsCameHome]

5. Isn't Biden from Delaware?

[SKKY]

6. This is where I disagree with most people on this issue...

...I think removing the confederate flag equates to rewriting history. Yes, it was an unpleasent time in our country, but I think it can also be a symbol of where we've been, and just how far we've come. This just seems Orwellian to me- make history and rewrite it as you see fit.

[AwareOne]

8. You are absolutely correct

Couldn't American Indians demand the removal of the American flag for the same reasons. After all, it is the symbol of a nation that committed genocide against them. It's a silly waste of time when there are so many meaningful issues to be dealt with.

[w4rma]

10. I think they should force the use of one of the real Confederate flags, rather than the battle flag.

If handled well, that could possibly diffuse the whole issue for good.

[DemBones DemBones]

11. There were a lot of real Confederate flags, but the battle flag is

also a real Confederate flag. People like the battle flag because of its graphic power -- it looks cooler than most other flags, Confederate or otherwise.

[w4rma]

12. The thing is that that flag was never flown over a state capital until the KKK and anti-civil rights

activists took the battle flag and used it as a rallying symbol for racism.

Take one of the flags that the Confederate government actually flew, rather than a flag that was only flown occasionally in some battles.

[fishwax]

15. that's why it's such a useful symbol, and why they continue to fight to keep it n/t

[w4rma]

18. That's why they should be called on it by offering a truely historical flag, instead. (nt)

[DemBones DemBones]

29. People like the battle flag because of its graphic power -- it looks cooler than

most other flags, Confederate or otherwise.

The Klan has always used the cross. Would you seriously say that Christians should stop using the cross as a symbol of Christian faith because some racists use it?

[fishwax]

33. that's a bait and switch

The battle flag re-emerged specifically as a racist symbol. Sure the Klan has used the cross, but the cross is not predominately associated with them--seeing a cross doesn't make most people think of the Klan, unless the cross is on fire. For the record, I'm against burning crosses on the statehouse grounds as well. :)

Since we're trading analogies, the swastika seems more apropos. It was an unoffensive symbol before the 30s. It isn't now, and likely never will be again.

[DemBones DemBones]

35. No, it is not.

The battle flag did not "re-emerge specifically as a racist symbol." The flag never went away in the South. It was commonly seen throughout the South before the civil rights movement began.

[kwassa]

41. To me the confederate flag is the #1 graphic symbol for racism

The flag is offensive to most African-Americans as a symbol of slavery and racism itself. It really shows the divide, most particularly in the South, between whites and blacks.

If the South would like to progress and move forward, instead of living in the past, the flag should be dumped as a public symbol.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America

Over time the flag has acquired a wide range of meanings, some apparently contradicting one another. Since the CSA was fighting for independence during the Civil War, much as the United States did during the Revolutionary War, the Confederate Flag has always had connotations of rebellion, patriotism, self-determination, dissent, freedom, and liberty. Since the issues of slavery and, later, segregation, are deeply intertwined with the CSA and the Civil Rights Movement, the Confederate Flag has connotations of racism and slavery.


(jump)

In 2005, two Western Carolina University researchers found that 74% of U.S. African-Americans polled favored removal of the flag from the South Carolina Capitol.

[kwassa]

43. another angle on it.

Sunday, 12/03/06

A matter of history or a matter of hate?
In a place like Franklin, where Civil War history is everywhere, the debate rages on

By KEVIN WALTERS
Staff Writer


http://www.tennessean.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061203/NEWS01/612030347

The Southern Poverty Law Center currently tracks 491 groups ranging from neo-Nazis to neo-Confederates who presently use the flag as a symbol in items ranging from T-shirts to tattoos.

Those groups may have nothing to do with the South, but their members admire the flag's background and its history of divisiveness.

"The attraction to the battle flag is very simple," said Heidi Beirich, the center's spokeswoman. "The battle flag represents a society that would have officially discriminated against people — blacks —that these people hate. And it positively discriminates for the people they like: white people."

[fishwax]

46. even if true, that wouldn't make the cross comparison valid

But actually, the flag did go away, at least legally, during reconstruction. It re-emerged, on a grand scale, in the 20th century, as a backdrop for racist presidential candidates, as a symbol of resistance atop the south carolina statehouse, as a not-so-subtle symbol on the state flag of georgia, etc.

[DemBones DemBones]

28. It's a symbol of rebellion against the North telling the South

what to do, which was what led to war. It's used as a symbol of rebellion in many countries, not by racists but by people who are underdogs in a political struggle and who appreciate the graphic qualities, the visual impact, of the flag.

The rebel flag is really a St. Andrews cross, with stars to represent the Confederate States. (And it's NOT the Stars and Bars, as many people think; that's another Confederate flag.) So it is a Christian symbol adapted as a government symbol.

The KKK has always used the Christian cross; that doesn't make the cross a racist symbol, and Christians have not stopped using the cross. The Klan used the cross for probably a hundred years before they took up the Confederate battle flag.

As for civil rights, when the courts ordered Northern schools to desegregate in the Sixties (the South having been ordered to do so in the Fifties, remember), there were race riots in Boston, Philadelphia, New York, and other places.

I remember a Northern mob turning over a schoolbus full of black children. I remember white people in those Northern cities spitting on black children. I remember black people being killed in those Northern race riots. I know those things happened. They were reported by newspapers and television. But when the media recall the civil rights struggles, those Northern race riots and other incidences of racism in the North never seem to be part of the picture. It's as if the only racists in the country were in the South. It wasn't true then and isn't true now.

[LanternWaste]

26. Flags and Standards have different uses

Actually, I think what you're referring to as a Battle Flag is really a Battle Standard. Flags and Standards have different uses (though some overlap) and different dimensions.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

37. Funny, I don't find it cool at all. I wonder why. -nt

[classysassy]

13. Why not return the nazi flag

Jews dislike the nazi,blacks dislike the dixie flag.No in hear right mind would suggest the nazi flag should be flown.Get a life.

[Big Pappa]

14. I think

W4rma in post 12 has the right idea. Besides individuals, when has a "nazi" flag been flown by any state?

[SKKY]

24. Why don't you think a little more deeply on this issue...

...and while you're at it, why don't you get a life- and hooked on phonics since you obviously aren't.

[fishwax]

16. considering the flag was put up at the statehouse in 1962, as a sign of resistance to

the burgeoning civil rights movement, I don't see how taking the flag off the grounds rewrites history. It isn't denying the confederacy existed, it's simply deciding to no longer celebrate that fact with a flag on the statehouse grounds.

[DemBones DemBones]

30. Yes, S.C. put up the flag as a symbol of rebellion against the North

telling them what to do.

Do you know about the race riots that took place in the North (that great bastion of tolerance, supposedly) when Northern schools were forced to integrate?

Southern schools were integrated before the courts made Northern schools do the same. I myself attended an all-white school in the Land of Lincoln, near Chicago, three years after the South was told it must desegregate.

[fishwax]

32. of course I'm aware of racism in the north, and if those schools had

the confederate battle flag on a flag pole on their front lawn, I'd consider it a racist symbol there as well. :shrug:

[mitchum]

45. What exactly was "rebellious" about dying for the economic...

interests of a handful of wealthy landowners?
Never quite understood that one.
Probably the reason that the MYTH of rebellion is so strong down here in dixie is because it is a myth. Unfortunately, the southern cracker has historically behaved like a servile dog to his "betters" He rolled over for the landowners, cotton mill owners, textile mill owners, and his current foreign manufacturing overlords.
Nothing but a myth.

[Hobarticus]

21. Kind of like, calling the Civil War the "War of Northern Aggression"?

That "rewriting history" thing is kinda convenient, ain't it?

[DemBones DemBones]

31. Southerners never called it "the Civil War."

Generally, they called it "The War Between the States."

"State" in this context doesn't mean doesn't mean individual states (such as California), it means "state" as in "nation state."

"The War Between the Confederate States of America and the United States of America" is a bit lengthy, hence "The War Between the States."

[Hobarticus]

38. Thanks for the lesson...

Not sure what that had to do with my post, but thanks anyway!

[Hosnon]

42. The difference in terminology comes from a difference in perspective.

To the North, the South was attempting to form a new country out of the United States. Thus, the war was within one country and was a civil war.

To the South, a new nation had already been formed and was fighting for its existence. Thus, the war was between two countries and was not a civil war.

The North won so its perspective also won.

[glide625]

22. It's an offensive Symbol of White Opression

That's what the whole thing is about. Who can claim a right to fly a flag when the only purpose is to offend non-whites? It's bad enough that the whites lost the war but that the victors got no spoils, but then to have the evil hate mongers turn around and fly their flag in peoples faces is ludicrous.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. Isn't having the confederate flag on state grounds...

rewriting how the history about how the Confederacy got their asses kicked, and their flags removed?

[lynne]

7. Any input from anyone actually having anything to do with SC on this issue?

Any SC senators, congressmen, reps, governor, state government or citizens give their opinion on this?

[Seeking Serenity]

34. I think it may be a bad idea.

From what I remember back in 2000, it was part of a compromise between the factions, to wit, that the Battle Flag (which was really the Navy Jack, an elogated version of the Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia, which was square, BTW) would be removed from atop the Capitol and moved to a Confederate monument on the Capitol grounds.

From a pure, realpolitik point of view, it might be a mistake to now insist that the flag be removed from the grounds altogether. It will allow the pro-flag faction to claim, somewhat justifiedly, that the anti-flag faction is a deal-breaker, did not act in good faith, "give-em-an-inch" and that sort of thing. In SC, as I understand it, that can have a voting affect that cannot be discounted.

I do think that the Battle Flag should be replaced with the Stars and Bars, the first CSA national flag.



That way, the Southern heritage types can have their deal, but without so much of the vitriol that comes from the Flag of the Army of Northern Virginia.