Chavez threatens more nationalizations (privately owned supermarkets and food storage facilities)

[jefferson_dem]

Chavez threatens more nationalizations
By CHRISTOPHER TOOTHAKER
Associated Press Writer

CARACAS, Venezuela — President Hugo Chavez threatened Wednesday to nationalize any privately owned supermarkets and food storage facilities caught hoarding inventories or violating price controls imposed on basic goods.

Accusing private companies of hoarding beef and other foods, Chavez warned supermarket owners and distributors that he would nationalize their facilities as soon as they gave him "an excuse."

"If they remain committed to violating the interests of the people, the constitution, the laws, I'm going to take the food storage units, corner stores, supermarkets and nationalize them," Chavez said during a televised broadcast. "So prepare yourselves!"

Chavez has been intent on nationalizing "strategic" sectors of the economy since winning re-election in December. He has moved quickly to buy out private interests in leading electricity and phone companies since the National Assembly gave him authority to enact sweeping measures by decree and accelerate the country's socialist transformation.

Earlier this week the government signed deals to buy stakes in local companies owned by two U.S. corporations - Verizon Communications Inc and CMS Energy Corp. There are no major U.S. interests, however, involved in the supermarket or food storage business in Venezuela.

<SNIP>

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/APWires/international/D8N9RME81.html

[Occulus]

1. .

:popcorn:

[originalpckelly]

9. Did you buy that popcorn legally?

:shrug:

Show me your PAPERS!

[Bandit]

67. I believe it was nationalized because it is available to all at no cost.

Venezuela has become a power player in the world. They eliminated their world debt and invested all their resources back into their country. Talk about smart managment....Chavez is even more popular now than when he was last elected and the people there are starting to feel a pride they have not known for quite some time..

[yurbud]

180. yeah, but he is evil if he don't make the rich richer...

[oldtimecanuk]

2. Hmmmmm Very interesting.... Sure hope I have not been wrong...

about Hugo... I will still say that I think that he has a plan for Venezuela, and that plan will be good for the people.... Don't like to see middle class Business owners suffer though, so heres hoping.

ww

[Bacchus39]

44. the warning signs have been there for years

what would you think if you owned a corner "tienda". Is it OK to earn a living in Venezuela???

[Zhade]

129. The only middle-class business owners who will "suffer" under this are the ones...

...ripping customers off and creating hunger by gouging and hoarding.

[dysfunctional press]

167. hopefully, anyway...

it doesn't take much for this type of thing to turn ugly.

[goforit]

187. His hatred for Bush may be causing him to become 'a Bush' after all.

Becoming the monster he abhors.

Tyrrants stiffle creativity.

[Judi Lynn]

189. No doubt you would have some real information to share to back up your statement.

As for creativity, I don't see any proof for that, either. What I HAVE seen is report after report of progress made in bringing literacy, and medical treatment to people who have done completely without it all their lives.

I do have a quick reference for this claim, by Medea Benjamin:

August 13 / 14, 2004

The Referendum and the Poor
Chavez Could Teach US Leaders a Thing or Two About Winning Votes
By MEDEA BENJAMIN

I knew that the administration of Hugo Chavez had won my heart when I met Olivia Delfino in one of the poor barrios in Caracas. As I was touring the neighborhood with an international delegation here to monitor this Sunday's referendum on Chavez, Olivia came out of her tiny house and grabbed my arm. "Tell the people of your country that we love Hugo Chavez," she insisted. She went on to tell me how her life had changed since he came to power. After living in the barrio for 40 years, she now had a formal title to her home. With that, she was able to get a bank loan to fix the roof so it wouldn't leak in the rain. Thanks to the Cuban dentists and a program called "Rescatando la sonrisa"-recovering the smile-for the first time in her life she was able to get her teeth fixed. And her daughter is in a job training program to become a nurse's assistant.

Getting more and more animated, Olivia dragged me over to a poster on the wall showing Hugo Chavez with a throng of followers and a list of Venezuela's new social programs that read: "The social programs are ours, let's defend them." Then slowly and laboriously, she began reading the list of social programs: literacy, health care, job training, land reform, subsidized food, small loans. I asked her if she was just learning to read and write as part of the literacy program. That's when she started to cry. "Can you imagine what it has meant to me, at 52 years old, to now have a chance to read?" she said. "It's transformed my life."
(snip/...)

http://www.counterpunch.org/benjamin08142004.html

[bitchkitty]

221. That is an absurd statement.

Chavez is not talking about shutting down mom & pop grocery stores, you know. And he has nothing in common with George Bush, other than they are both men. I don't see how forbidding a Kroger or Safeway (chains) from hoarding food compares to an illegal invasion.

[manic expression]

3. More encouraging stuff

This is something to keep an eye on.

[jefferson_dem]

7. Something to keep an eye one, yes. Encouraging, no.

:shrug:

[manic expression]

11. This is very encouraging

putting society in the hands of the people. That is a positive thing, let's hope they do it right.

[William769]

13. Like Communism did?

[Warren Stupidity]

17. Well in this case not like communism did.

Chavez's Bolivarian Party is implementing democratic socialism within a vibrant democracy and within the legal forms of the Venezuelan constitution. Nationalization is done not by seizing assets but by purchasing them according to law at fair market value. In addition, nationalized sectors of the economy are operated by a democratic republic's government, not by a one party dictatorship. Many countries have democratic socialist systems with a mixed economy. For example, Sweden, not generally considered 'like communism'.

[manic expression]

18. More or less

although you're thinking of socialism, communism has never been implemented (yet).

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

124. Yes, because it's completely unworkable.

It inevitably results in the centraization of far too much power, which inevitably leads to disaster. True Democracy has never really existed either, as it goes too far in the other direction.

[manic expression]

185. Not true

and if you knew what you were talking about in the slightest sense, you wouldn't say such a thing.

Do you know what communism is? There are no classes in communism, there is NO STATE in communism. As a matter of fact, there are basically NO BORDERS in communism. How can you possibly say tha there is "centralization of far too much power"? That is most assuredly NOT TRUE.

You're talking of socialism, which doesn't have centralization of power either. The workers have power, they control their communities and suppress the bourgeoisie. The vanguard party simply leads them in these efforts and others. There is actual democracy for the people in socialism, unlike capitalism.

Read up:

http://www.marxists.org/archive/reed/1918/soviets.htm

There's more where that came from.

[AikidoSoul]

190. Centralization of power -- you mean it's not workable??

Somebody tell Bush.

[citizen snips]

123. Communism has never existed.

[William769]

126. According to Websters dictionary it did.

[Runcible Spoon]

127. Well next time I need brain surgery I'll make sure to look it up in Webster's...

and perform it myself :eyes:

[William769]

149. You do that.

Misinformation is just as bad as lying.

[Runcible Spoon]

150. LOL almost as bad as taking Webster's Dictionary as an authoritative source N/T

:eyes:

[William769]

162. And people who don't...

:rofl:

[Runcible Spoon]

164. I'll remember that when I write up my dissertation.

I'm sure I can just put "Webster's" in my bibliography and that should just about cover it, eh? :eyes: Any dictionary with a "bootylicious" entry gets my vote as authority of EVERYTHING.

[BestCenter]

223. Ur soo rite, mang

Sux two teh Wbestr's!

[Runcible Spoon]

165. actually Boy Wonder, Webster's says:

"In practice, a single authoritarian party controls both the political and economic systems. In the twentieth century, communism was ASSOCIATED (emphasis mine) with the economic and political systems of China and the Soviet Union and of the satellites of the Soviet Union. (Compare capitalism and socialism.)"

Derf. I teach remedial reading Friday nights, $50/hour, sliding scale of course

[William769]

166. Strange how you leave out key elements (find a better school)

:eyes:

http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Communism

[Runcible Spoon]

173. LOL I'll just get my PhD from Merrian Webster U.

"official ideology of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics" doesn't say much about the actual mechanics of implementation :silly:

Have a good one, I'm done here

[William769]

182. Your done, because you lost.

:rofl:

[Runcible Spoon]

186. oHHHHHH well if that's how ya wanna play it

didn't realize winning a pile of shit was "winning" but to each her own.

[happydreams]

199. ROFL. Righties like their piles of shit.

its all they got.
:rofl:

Great name too. Yer a "farce" to be reckoned with IMO.

[citizen snips]

184. link?

[manic expression]

232. Worst Argument Ever

:rofl:

[goforit]

188. Quite frankly, it was Reagan that released all constraints on capitalism

causing a huge chain reaction of the big fish eating the little fish destroying our own culture.
Capitalism needs constraints (prior to Reagan we had constraints), like.......

Not allowing competitors to buy each other out
Not allowing industry companies to collude against the public for profit.
Not allowing retailors to set up shops across the street from each other monopolizing the corners....ie Starbucks/Walmart

Reagan's policies have destroyed our culture and is slowly destroying any means of a middle class.

Have you ever noticed how you can buy the same outfit at Macy's that you do at Bloomies, Marshall fields and Dillards?
Well....Competition and creativity is at a standstill. No longer can you buy something unigue in Georgia as compared with
New Hampshire.

But Chavez is going overboard destroying all means of any capitalism at all which can hinder society as well.

[AikidoSoul]

191. Your last sentence is as extremist as the extremists you seem to fear

Your sentence is: "But Chavez is going overboard destroying all means of any capitalism at all which can hinder society as well."

Notice the words "all" are in that sentence two times.

That is a sign of an absolutist position -- which in reality does not exist in Hugo's world. He is not destroying "all" capitalism. That's absurd and a distortion of reality.

Sad to see you do this.

However... the rest of your position on Reagan are completely correct in my opinion.

[Big Pappa]

21. Putting

society in the hands of the people or in the hands of Hugo?

[manic expression]

29. Good question

Chavez has been giving power to the people through Bolivarian circles and other methods (Venezuela's elections are fair). While you raise an important issue, I think Chavez' past actions have shown that he wants the people to have control. However, we should keep an eye on the situation and see if this is so.

[Igel]

58. I don't know about the circles.

In many respects, they remind me of the soviets founded in 1905. Remember the slogan, "All power to the soviets"?

They were all well and good for a while, but ultimately what happened is that you had so many soviets that they were powerless unless organized--and the organizers had all the power, while keeping the form (at least for a little while).

The circles differ from the soviets in that they were formed *after* Chavez took power, and it's unclear how they'll be used in the future and how they'll evolve.

I'll watch some more before forming an opinion.

[killbotfactory]

116. You might be interested in this article

It's about his vision for a new unified socialist party in Venezuela, and how he wants to give power to the base, rather that the political elite.

Most Latin American left parties of the 20th century, Chávez noted, had "copied the Bolshevik model of the party," which under Lenin’s leadership brought victory in the Russian revolution of 1917. Later, this party "went off course, which Lenin could not prevent because he was ill and died very young." The Bolsheviks "ended up as an anti-democratic party, and the wonderful slogan, ‘All power to the soviets,’ ended up as ‘All power for the party.’

"In my humble opinion, this deformation took place close to the outset of the socialist revolution that gave birth to the Soviet Union, and we saw the results 70 years later" in the USSR’s collapse. Workers did not come out to defend the Soviet system "because it had become converted into an elitist structure that could not build socialism.

"We here will build Venezuelan socialism — an original Venezuelan model."

The new party "must be created not for electoral purposes — even though it will carry out electoral battles as we have done," Chávez said. "The task is to carry out the battle of ideas for the socialist project." For this purpose, everyone must "study, read, discuss" and "distribute information, printed material."

http://venezuelaanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1944

[Zhade]

130. Note the lack of response. Once you prick the propaganda ballon, suddenly - no interest!

Funny, huh?

[rinsd]

133. How was the propaganda balloon pricked?

A speech by Chavez saying "Oh no we're not like those bad old communists, our revolution is totally different"?

Irony, she ain't dead yet!

[eridani]

228. That was before Lenin remembered that soviets could overthrow the state

When he became the state, all of a sudden that didn't seem like such a hot idea.

[manic expression]

233. Not true

the Soviets had a great amount of influence in the USSR during Lenin. The Russian Civil War demanded a more centralized structure, but aside from that your assertion is incorrect.

[eridani]

234. Didn't Lenin eventually make them illegal? n/t

[manic expression]

235. I'm pretty sure he didn't

That kind of stuff happened after 1928 when Stalin took over, if you ask me. The Soviets were VERY important in society, and I've read accounts in 1921 that support this.

To be honest, I need to brush up on early Soviet history, but I doubt Lenin illegalized the Soviets (maybe certain factions within them, but not the Soviets themselves).

[Bacchus39]

43. seizing the corner stores is encouraging??

how so?

[Zhade]

131. You mean, removing a crooked business' right to do business?

Yeah, what a fucked-up idea, penalizing criminals.

[Marrah_G]

53. Yeah because Communism works right?

Because Chavez will live in exactly the same living conditions as the corner store owner who will draw a salary from the government, for exactly the same amount as Chavez gets right? The owner turned store clerk's children will have the same standard of living and future as the Chavez children right?

Communism is great in theory, impossible in practice.

Animal farm, great read.

I think Chavez is traveling down the wrong path right now.

[manic expression]

81. Socialism has worked and will work

communism has never existed, yet. That much is a fact (the USSR was socialist, as was PRC, as is Cuba, etc...).

I do hope Chavez does not depart from being with the people. We will see.

Communism is great in theory, great in practice. Read some history.

Orwell was a crotchety old man when he wrote both 1984 (which I've read) and Animal Farm. He was a socialist, by the way.

[rinsd]

90. "Read some history"

Which should be "read all of history" not just the alternative histories vogue in the 20th century.

"Communism is great in theory, great in practice"

How can it be? You just claimed its never existed.

"Orwell was a crotchety old man when he wrote both 1984 (which I've read) and Animal Farm.

Crotchety? Well I can certainly see Orwell as a cynic. And while he wrote Animal Farm and 1984 towards the end of his life he died at the young age of 47.

"He was a socialist, by the way."

Yes he was and he detested power grabs by cults of personality and was what could be charitably described as anti-Stalin.

Which reminds me of a funny bit from the movie Enemy at the Gates about Stalingrad. In the extras on the DVD you have a cut scene with Bob Hoskins playing Nikita Khrushchev drunk on vodka ranting against Stalin. Well at least it was funny to a history buff like me familiar with Khrushchev and his efforts at destalinization of the Soviet Union.

[manic expression]

95. OK

"Communism in practice" was a poetic way of saying "communist governments during socialism". I should have been more clear, thank you for pointing out the error.

If you look at Orwell's writing, it got very "cynical" (as you put it) towards the end of his life. I think this is a valid point.

Orwell was very much opposed to Stalin (as am I). That doesn't disprove what I'm saying. Stalin did many bad things and some good things (like defeating Nazi Germany). Orwell, I fear, took his dislike of Stalin and applied it in quite a liberal manner towards the rest of the communist movement.

[rinsd]

97. I think Orwell saw the Dictatorship of the Proletariat as un-ending

That once asserting massive power under the guise of being the people, said government is reluctant to relinquish it.

"That doesn't disprove what I'm saying."

I was making a bridge to other cult of personality socialist/communist movements.

[manic expression]

100. Orwell

the legendary cynic did, so I'll take his fears with quite a bit of salt.

[AikidoSoul]

192. Isn't Chavez at the beginning a process that Norway, Sweden, and Canada have already achieved?

Except of course that his actions are more radical as he is entering power when there are huge numbers of the extremely poor and dispossed...

Does that make sense to you?

It's an enormous challenge to move these people out of poverty. Chevez seems to be breaking the legs off of anyone that wants to reverse that trend by cheating the poor.

Jeez... I wish somebody would do that here in the U.S.

Would someone please explain why Chavez is vilified by DUers -- who at the same time seem to have a hands-off policy toward the Scandinavian/European/Canadian socialist-democracies?

Is it a timing issue?

[happydreams]

203. It's thought provoking. I'd guess...

that part of the difference between anti-socialist DUers views of Scandanavian, European socialism and Latin American is because the US corporations never got a foothold, much less a stranglehold in Scandanavia like they did in Latin America. Sweden in particular was a beneficiary of the Cold War struggle between the Soviets and the US. The Swedes weren't anti-US and the US wanted to keep it that way by not antagonizing them. In Latin America the "Monroe Doctrine" turned the place into corporate fiefdoms.

Just some thoughts.

[killbotfactory]

204. Maybe it's because the US media is almost 100% hostile towards him?

[rinsd]

216. Because Chavez isn't following a social democracy but actual socialism

He is organizing factories/industries into collectives and coops.

That is quite different than the countries you named which basically have large social safety nets and nationalized industry.

"Chevez seems to be breaking the legs off of anyone that wants to reverse that trend by cheating the poor."

Odd you cheer this on because the #1 scapegoat and justification of rights abuses in countries like that are counter-revolutionaries.

Chavez's villification likely has many reasons. You would have to ask each person themselves.

Mine is Chavez is a cult of personality here. When he pulls an authoritarian move that we would scream about in this country, he is cheered on. When he acts like he's still on the school yard instead of the head of one of the player in the world, he is cheered on. When he weaves heavy religious overtones to his movement, he is cheered. Frankly I get the impression that quite a few DUers have no issue with authoritarian tactics or despotic government provided that government is leftist. Failing a leftist government, someone who is anti-Bush. Far too many blindly accept the fable that the enemny of my enemy is my friend.

[bitchkitty]

224. He isn't vilified by me - I love Chavez!

It doesn't surprise me that there are anti-Chavez people here though. A lot of Democratic leaders are against him. Just goes to show that nobody is immune to propaganda, I guess.

[TX-RAT]

54. in the hands of the people.

Looks more like it's going into the hands of Hugo.

[killbotfactory]

66. Here's an example of Hugo taking power for himself

Big Cooperative Push in Venezuela

The hotel is among 100,000 cooperatives formed in Venezuela in the last two years that are the centerpiece of President Hugo Chavez's new socialist model to create jobs and redistribute this oil-rich country's wealth. They now employ 7% of the country's workforce, a number that could grow to 30% in a few years, government officials say.

Chavez is spending hundreds of millions of dollars in oil and tax revenue on the cooperatives. Although there have been allegations of gross inefficiency and graft, cooperatives have become a powerful part of the economy and society.

More than 700,000 impoverished workers across the nation have suddenly become stakeholders, such as the 200 families in Bolivar state that were recently given the right to operate a toll road connecting state capital Ciudad Bolivar and Puerto Ordaz. Poor workers are now operating steel and textile factories, fisheries and dairy farms across Venezuela with the prospect of sharing in whatever profits the enterprises turn.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1801

[happydreams]

202. That is one biiiiiiig operation. You are talking about

transforming the political, social, and economic structure of society. Even if it fails, which I don't think it will, the guy has to be given credit for trying. If he was a real tyrant he would just sit on his ass and rake in oil dollars for palaces and other fetishes and use the military to squelch labor and civil rights, while selling out the country's resources for a song.

People need to see the difference between what he trying to do and what the Right-Wing leaders have done in Latin America.

[rinsd]

76. But Hugo is the people and how dare you question the PEOPLE!

[Rage for Order]

10. Chavez's mentor thinks it's encouraging stuff

Jan 24, 2007 (AP)— President Hugo Chavez's political mentor who once persuaded the fiery leader to seek power through elections after he led a failed coup now says the regime has "all the characteristics of a dictatorial government."

"This is a government with a hypocritical authoritarianism that tries to sell the world certain democratic appearances," said the 87-year-old Miquilena, who has maintained a low profile since resigning from Chavez's government in early 2002.

Miquilena said he sees a clear effort to "centralize power." A former communist and pioneer of Venezuela's labor movement, Miquilena was a close collaborator who helped Chavez after he led a failed coup in 1992 against then-President Carlos Andres Perez. Miquilena provided financial support to Chavez's family while he was in prison for the two years after the coup attempt and convinced the former paratrooper once he was released to seek the presidency through elections.

Miquilena helped Chavez found the Fifth Republic Movement and formed alliances with other parties. As Chavez's interior minister in 1999, Miquilena earned the reputation as a conciliator between Chavez's fiery rhetoric and the nervous opposition. But he left the government in 2002 after quarreling with Chavez and denouncing his "autocratic style."

more...

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2818356&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

[LoZoccolo]

12. Wow, that's a good find.

Of course, Chavez's personality cult will brand Miquilena as part of the coup against him or something.

[Rage for Order]

14. Or a disgruntled rich guy

Mad that Chavez is raising his taxes and nationalizing his property

[jefferson_dem]

15. Surely, Miquilena is either a "corporate propagandist" or a "propagandizing corporatist."

Which is it, i wonder... :think:

[Warren Stupidity]

23. Miquilena is a political rival of Chavez.

"So why would a supreme court that was appointed by Chavez' party and his supporters rule against the government and in favor of the coup plotters? The reason is complex and almost certainly has to do with the fact that the members of the Supreme Court were by and large nominated by Luis Miquilena, the former minister of the interior and of justice.

Miquilena, who is considered a "moderate" with presidential aspirations of his own, left the government last Fall and recently formed his own political party, "Solidarity", along with several other of his followers, who broke from Chavez' coalition in the National Assembly. Many suspect that Miquilena was involved in the coup attempt and rumors were circulating before the coup that in the event of a coup he would be named as president.

As is so common in Venezuelan culture, personal loyalty counts for a lot and this gives Miquilena significant influence over the Supreme Court. William Lara, the president of the National Assembly and member of Chavez' party, claimed, prior to the court's final decision to dismiss the charges, that "Luis Miquilena, together with leaders of Acción Democrática is putting pressure on the Supreme Court, so that they make a decision contrary to the rule of law and in favor of the accused officials." "

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2002-08/15wilpert.cfm

That part of his relationship to Chavez was conveniently left out of the article.

[Rage for Order]

24. That may be the case

However, given their long history, including Miquilena providing money and support to Chavez's family for two years while Chavez was in prison, it seems unlikely that Miquilena would go so far as to call Chavez a dictator and autocrat simply because he's a political rival. He could simply say that he wanted to take the country on a more moderate course rather than slandering his long-time friend in the media. Plus, the guy's 87 years old. How much political ambition can he have? Certainly he doesn't think he'll be in good enough health to run the country for more than a year or two.

[Warren Stupidity]

25. Omitting the split while claiming he is an associate is dishonest.

The article cited attempted to establish his credentials while leaving out some very pertinent facts. That is simply dishonest.

[Rage for Order]

27. They didn't omit it

The article calls him Chavez's former mentor, and states "...But he left the government in 2002 after quarreling with Chavez and denouncing his "autocratic style." Saying that they quarreled shows they parted at odds with one another.

[Warren Stupidity]

28. You are right. What they left out

was that he was involved in the abortive coup against Chavez. On a side note, what kind of despotism is it where former coup plotters are hanging around carping about the government?

And for extra credit, how alive would former coup plotters be in this country of ours?

[Rage for Order]

31. Well, to be fair...

The article you linked states "Many suspect that Miquilena was involved in the coup attempt and rumors were circulating before the coup that in the event of a coup he would be named as president." The infamous "many" suspect, but they did not cite even one. And "rumors were circulating"? "Many suspect" and "rumors were circulating" does not mean he was involved in a coup attempt against Chavez.

[rinsd]

73. Where was he involved in the coup? You have any evidence of this?

[killbotfactory]

84. Suspected of being part of the coup

Probably because of this:

Luis Miquilena, ex Interior Minister of Venezuela and ex mentor of Chavez, yesterday called to "find institutional paths" to lead Venezuela "to a new age of transition" in the face of the grave crisis it confronts. Miguilena, who once was the most clear and convincing supporter of Chavez, declared that "the chief of state is the person most responsible for what has happened and nobody can save him from this responsibility."

This article was published in the middle of the coup attempt.
http://trinicenter.com/cgi-bin/selfnews/viewnews.cgi?newsid1018584000,2186,.shtml

It also probably doesn't help that the Supreme Court judges he was responsible for putting in place don't believe a coup attempt even occurred.

So why would a supreme court that was appointed by Chavez' party and his supporters rule against the government and in favor of the coup plotters? The reason is complex and almost certainly has to do with the fact that the members of the Supreme Court were by and large nominated by Luis Miquilena, the former minister of the interior and of justice.

Miquilena, who is considered a "moderate" with presidential aspirations of his own, left the government last Fall and recently formed his own political party, "Solidarity", along with several other of his followers, who broke from Chavez' coalition in the National Assembly. Many suspect that Miquilena was involved in the coup attempt and rumors were circulating before the coup that in the event of a coup he would be named as president.

As is so common in Venezuelan culture, personal loyalty counts for a lot and this gives Miquilena significant influence over the Supreme Court. William Lara, the president of the National Assembly and member of Chavez' party, claimed, prior to the court's final decision to dismiss the charges, that "Luis Miquilena, together with leaders of Acción Democrática is putting pressure on the Supreme Court, so that they make a decision contrary to the rule of law and in favor of the accused officials."

http://www.zmag.org/sustainers/content/2002-08/15wilpert.cfm

[rinsd]

87. Looks like he sat on the sidelines

But I guess not mounting a vigorous defense of Chavez equals treachery in his supporters eyes.

[killbotfactory]

88. He had his supreme court appointees refuse to prosecute the coup plotters

That's a bit more than sitting on the sidelines.

Or maybe he just likes coup plotters for some reason.

[rinsd]

93. Again pure speculation on the part of Chavez supporters.

Funny when people speculate about Chavez's motive, its the crime of the century but its a free for all for any who speak against him. Why is that?

[killbotfactory]

104. Oh bullcrap

"Funny when people speculate about Chavez's motive, its the crime of the century"

:eyes:

[Zhade]

132. The FACT that he refused to prosecute them is not speculation.

NT!

[rinsd]

140. He was in charge of prosecution?

It would seem that many of the judges on the Supreme Court had been appointed by him (understandable given his presence and position in the Chavez government). And they decided not to go forth.

The rumor repeated by Chavez and his lackies is that Milquilena convinced them to do so.

[Zhade]

142. So... you've never heard of quid pro quo, then. I see.

Let me explain: these men owe Milquilena their lifetime position.

It's possible there was no collusion, but then again it's possible there was, and there is a conflict of interest.

[rinsd]

146. Where is the conflict of interest? Was Milquilena taking over?

And if that's the case wouldn't every appointment by Chavez have a similar conflict of interest?

Or you can just admit you're reaching.

"these men owe Milquilena their lifetime position."

Is it lifetime? My understanding was 12 year terms under the new Constitution that Milquilena and Chavez helped put together.

"you've never heard of quid pro quo,"

You apparently have heard it but do not understand it.

But that;s ok, Chavez "fixed" the Supreme Court so no more unpleasant decisions coul dbe handed down

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/12/14/venezu9864.htm

But I guess its ok that Chavez created more Supreme Court positions and filled them with his hand picked crew rubber stamped by his party controlled assembly. That is obviously not collusion nor are those judges in any way owing to Chavez and his party.

[Zhade]

147. It'sd possible I don't know the Milquilena issue as well as I thought I did.

I'll concede that. See, I can do that, unlike some people here.

Irrespective of that issue, this move to penalize crooked business owners causing a starvation crisis is hardly tantamount to authoritarianism.

[ProudDad]

155. What color is the sky in your world?

"it seems unlikely that Miquilena would go so far as to call Chavez a dictator and autocrat simply because he's a political rival"

????

[Rage for Order]

174. It's blue over here

I didn't say it couldn't happen, but given the long friendship between the two men, and all the history between them, it seems unlikely to me that someone in his early 80's would go to such extremes because he wants to be president himself. At the age of 87, how likely is it that the guy wants the position of president, with all of the stress that comes with the job? Maybe he's speaking his conscience, knowing his days on this world are drawing to an end. I don't know what the reason, but it seems unlikely to me that it's a power grab by Miquilena.

[killbotfactory]

77. Welcome to politics

41. The reaction of the right scared some of Chávez’ comrades, including Miquilena, his political operator during the whole constituent process and the elections carried out to legitimate his mandate. Since the President didn’t back up to appease the opposition and was firmly determined to carry the revolutionary process forward, Miquilena suspended his support–and that of many people who had been named in different institutions thanks to his influence–and became one of the leaders of the opposition. This explains Chávez’ negative relation of forces within the District Attorney’s Office (most of whose members are against him); in the Supreme Court of Justice (11 of its 20 judges believe there was no coup d’Etat on April 11); and in the National Electoral Council (five are against him and one supports the government).

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1018

[rinsd]

80. BS analysis from a Chavez media mouthpiece

Yes it had to be the devilish right cowing Miqulena. It could never be that St. Chavez may have split from his former mentor.

[Flanker]

82. There were considerable rumors that Miquelena was quite corrupt

And that might have more to do with the split in 2002 than trends. Granted in Venezuela it is hot or cold either you are with the government or you think it is a dictatorship, his opinion is no more valid than a jilted lover that also thinks Chavez is a dictator.

Opinion is free (for and from anyone), but facts are sacred.

[rinsd]

83. I wonder who started those rumors?

I certainly know who repeats them.

I don't think Chavez is some monster but he is certainly no saint.

[Flanker]

109. Those rumors started in 2000 when he was a Chavez ally

Again seek facts not opinion.

[rinsd]

112. "Again seek facts not opinion." That is hilarious

Since you offered up was a rumor that he was corrupt(even calling it a rumor) and an opinion that is what caused his split with Chavez as an attempt to impeach him as a source, that is especially rich.

What is even funnier is I never treated his word as gold.

I think its interesting that a former Communist and supporter no longer feels that way about him but most of my opinions of Chavez are formed thru his actions.

[Flanker]

113. I claimed it was a rumor

You claim what you posit is fact. Why did he leave the government? Why is his opinion more relevant than anyone elses?

[rinsd]

114. Now a strawman?

"You claim what you posit is fact"

Where?

"Why did he leave the government?"

Its seems he was dissatisfied with Chavez whether it be philsophical or personal or whatever is what seems to be a mystery.

"Why is his opinion more relevant than anyone elses?"

Well, let's see:

He was Chavez's mentor.

He was a high up official in Chavez's government.

He is a former leader on the left side of politics in Venezuela.

Shall I go on?

[Flanker]

115. Well thank you for helping me out

"Where? "

On this very reply

"Its seems he was dissatisfied with Chavez whether it be philsophical or personal or whatever is what seems to be a mystery."

Ok

"Well, let's see:

He was Chavez's mentor.

He was a high up official in Chavez's government.

He is a former leader on the left side of politics in Venezuela.

Shall I go on? "

But you said he left the government no? he is an ex this, ex that, which means he is no more than you or I nowadays.

[rinsd]

118. Are you kidding?

"he is an ex this, ex that, which means he is no more than you or I nowadays."

He was a political powerhouse in Venezuela for decades. He is a hell of alot more relevant than you or I.

[Flanker]

122. Political powerhouse... sure

He rode Chavez's cotails to power, and disappeared the minute he left, save for the MSM looking for hit pieces.

Michelena is one of the most overrated politicians in Venezuela, people used to think he was the power behind the throne...

[rinsd]

125. LOL.

"He rode Chavez's cotails to power,"

He was Chavez's campaign manager and president of the Consitutional Senate that kicked off Chavez;s revolution. He was involved in opposition politics for decades. He was such a burden that after leaving office, Chavez had him come back.

"and disappeared the minute he left, save for the MSM looking for hit pieces"

He's in his 80's for crissakes, retired from politics.

"Michelena is one of the most overrated politicians in Venezuela, people used to think he was the power behind the throne"

All Hail Dear Leader!

[Zhade]

134. Are you going to acknowledge that you did, in fact, claim what you pretended you didn't?

NT!

[killbotfactory]

89. More than just rumors

May 2000 – The attorney general recommends that the court open a corruption case against National Legislative Commission president and former Constitutional Assembly chief Luis Miquilena for allegedly awarding a state-funded printing contract to a company in which he was a shareholder. In June, the Supreme Tribunal of Justice, the members of which were hand-picked by the pro-Chávez Constitutional Assembly led by Miquilena, effectively blocks any future trial by refusing to strip Miquilena of his legislative immunity.

http://www.globalintegrity.org/reports/2004/2004/country4873.html?cc=ve&act=timeline

[rinsd]

92. LOL. To attack a former Chavez supporter you had to go to an anti-Chavez site?

Here's some other nuggets from that page. I guess their all true as well.

"July 2000 – Chávez is reelected to a six-year term as president under the new Constitution, earning 59 percent of the vote. Runner-up Francisco Arias Cárdenas wins only 38 percent. Chávez's coalition earns 99 seats in the new 165-member National Assembly and 15 of 23 governorships.

August 2000 – Inspector General of the Courts René Molina resigns, claiming that a Chávez-appointed judicial reform commission has repeatedly blocked his attempts to remove corrupt or negligent judges. Molina further charges the commission with appointing judges based on cronyism and nepotism and then protecting them from disciplinary action.

March 2001 – Venezuelan news media allege that military officers siphoned funds from Plan Bolivar 2000, the Chávez-sponsored public works project that sends soldiers and civilians across the country to build roads, repair schools, and administer health care. Auditors in the comptroller's office discover account discrepancies totaling more than US$2.6million of the US$113 million spent on the project in 2000.

April 2001 – Secret police arrest four heads of Venezuela's National Customs and Tax Administration Service (SENIAT—Servicio Nacional Integrado de Administracion Tributaria de Venezuela), after the officials are accused of attempting to extort 80 million bolivars (US$114,000) from a textile importer during a sting operation. In June, police arrest the son of SENIAT's president, himself an employee at the agency, in connection with the attempted extortion.

March 2002 – Chávez fires the board of directors at traditionally independent state oil company Petroleums of Venezuela, Inc. (PDVSA—Petróleos de Venezuela, S.A.). In its place, Chávez appoints what is viewed as a partisan board, triggering widespread public outrage.

April 2002 – Angry executives at PDVSA stage a strike by employees of the company and are joined by several opposition organizations. During an anti-Chávez demonstration in favor of the strikers, over a dozen people are killed and 350 injured after gunfire erupts in Caracas. Military leaders subsequently stage a coup, ousting Chávez from power and installing former oil executive Pedro Carmona as interim president. Following massive public protests and international outcry, loyalist troops retake the presidential mansion, and the coup falls apart after two days.

September 2002 – The Supreme Tribunal throws out two corruption charges against Chávez. Based on lack of evidence, the court dismisses a charge that the president accepted US$1.5 million in illegal campaign funding from a Spanish bank. The court also dismisses a charge that Chávez misused US$2 billion earmarked for savings. The court ruled that the second case did not meet standards of Venezuela law because the legislators who brought the charge could not prove they were potential victims of the alleged crime.

December 2002 – As PDVSA managers stage a walkout, a coalition of labor unions, business organizations, and political opposition groups launch a nationwide strike against the government with the aim of pressuring Chávez to resign or agree to stage early elections. For two months the strike cripples all sectors of the economy, including the powerful petroleum industry, and the strike eventually costs the economy as much as US$16 billion. Chávez condemns the strike leaders as "coup plotters" who seek to overthrow his government by force. Opposition leaders ease the work stoppage in early February to save many businesses fearful of bankruptcy. Chávez eventually fires about a third of all PDVSA employees in retaliation for participating in the strike.

February 2003 – The government imposes strict new currency and price controls, claiming a need to help the economy recover after the strike, and vowing to deny dollars to corporations and entities that supported the strike. Before the rules are implemented, the Venezuelan currency market trades about US$60 million every day, but about four months after the changes only US$140 million of exchanges have been approved by the state currency board. A black market for currency exchange soon emerges, with businesses receiving unsolicited offers to trade illegally for U.S. dollars after their applications to convert currency are rejected by the government.

August 2003 – Tens of thousands of citizens march on Caracas, beginning a campaign to oust Chávez through a national referendum. According to the new Constitution, at the midpoint of a president's six-year term citizens may force a referendum if they can garner support from at least 20 percent of the population—in this case, 2.4 million people. Should a sitting president lose a referendum, his presidency is recalled and a subsequent election is held to choose a successor. In October, election officials set a four-day window at the end of November during which referendum supporters may collect the required signatures.

December 2003 – Opponents of Chávez present to electoral authorities 3.4 million signatures supporting a recall referendum against their president. If officials at the National Electoral Council (CNE—Consejo Nacional Electoral) are able to verify that 20 percent of the electorate—roughly 2.4 million people—have signed the petition, the referendum could go forward sometime in the spring of 2004. President Chávez claims the signatures were obtained through fraud and vows to continue fighting the referendum process.

February 2004 – Midway through the verification process, officials decide to review more than half of the signatures, which the opposition claims is a pretext to destroy the referendum. An estimated 400,000 citizens march on Caracas in protest.

March 2004 – The CNE declares that only 1.8 million of the 3.4 million signatures demanding a referendum were valid. The officials announce that a special "repair period" will be scheduled, during which time 1.1 million suspicious signatures can be verified by the signers, and that if enough signatures are repaired a referendum will proceed. Two weeks later, the Electoral Chamber of the Supreme Tribunal overturns the CNE, ruling that the recall petitions need no validation. Days later, the Constitutional Chamber of the same Tribunal—comprised of Chávez loyalists—orders the Electoral Chamber to refrain from making decisions concerning the referendum. The conflict between the chambers of the Tribunal effectively paralyzes the referendum movement."

[killbotfactory]

94. Well you refuse to consider anything from a pro-Chavez site...

:shrug:

[rinsd]

98. So is the rest of what is reported there true or not?

[killbotfactory]

102. I'm sure some of it is

Like the stuff about the Supreme Tribunal throwing out charges against Chavez based on lack of evidence.

Did you even read half the stuff you quoted?

[killbotfactory]

85. He left the Chavez government

Because Chavez was pissing off too many business leaders.

How is that not politics?

This guy isn't just some non-biased "former mentor" trying to warn us of the apparent beast he unleashed.

[rinsd]

96. So he is biased but Chavez supporters are not biased?

He cannot be believed because he is biased based on what Chavez supproters have said about him.

I also see it as politics. And what better way to neutralize a former compatriot and emerging rival then to accuse him of dastardly deeds.

[killbotfactory]

99. Fine, believe everyone who says Chavez is dictator

no matter what motives they may have.

he's criticizing Chavez, he must be an angel.

[rinsd]

107. I see your black and white thinking continues unabated.

See he can be right about Chavez and still be a douche.

Chavez can be authoritarian without being the 2nd coming of Stalin.

[killbotfactory]

108. Well, seeing as how he is Chavez's political opposition

It may be relevant as to whether or not to take his opinion seriously.

Surprisingly, none of the "Oh my, Chavez's mentor says he's a dictator now!" alarmist news stories seem to be able to report it.

[rinsd]

110. You have issues with this article?

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2818356&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

It evens mentions the comments were made to an anti-Chavez media outlet.

Is he still head of the party he formed right after the split or is he retired? He;s in his 80's isn't he?

[ProudDad]

154. Wow, that's rather definitive

one article in the U.S. state press (ABC) about the ravings of a senile.

You've changed my mind!!! :sarcasm:

[LoZoccolo]

4. It doesn't matter what he does, he will have bootlicker apologists excusing everything.

Any reason Chavez himself gives will be good enough for them.

This, my friends, is how shit happens.

[jefferson_dem]

8. Hugo accuses you of violating his sacred "laws" and you lose your property.

Is that a problem? Nah... :sarcasm:

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

79. LOL

:thumbsup:

[Zhade]

136. Nicely done. You tell that conservative!

NT!

[GrumpyGreg]

5. God help the people of Venezuela,he's nuts!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

16. not quite as mad as King George?

[gravity]

30. He's worst

They actually have a lot in common in human rights abuses, limiting free speach, government incompetence, and playing the dictator role. His economic policies are weak too, and will bring his coutry down more harm than what Bush is doing to our own country. His intentions are better helping the poor, but it doesn't matter much if his policies fail.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

70. at least C helps the poor

B couldn't care less

[killbotfactory]

71. An example of the free speech Chavez is repressing with his dictatorship

By refusing to renew RCTV's license simply because they are critical of him.

> In April 2002, coup organizers plan an anti-government march in downtown Caracas, attracting thousands of demonstrators. RCTV and other private stations encourage Venezuelans to participate. At the last minute, the route of the march is redirected toward the presidential palace, and mercenaries begin firing on the crowd, killing 18.

> Amidst the bloody chaos, rebel military leaders kidnap President Chavez and transport him to a Caribbean island. RCTV and other private stations broadcast a statement that Chavez had…um… resigned.

> Interim President Pedro Carmona (Pedro the Brief) promptly suspends the Venezuelan Constitution, dissolves Congress and the Supreme Court, and basically appoints himself emperor. RCTV president Marcel Granier is there for the fun .

> Coup leaders appear on television and explain how it all went down. They single out RCTV, thanking the network for its assistance.

> RCTV calls on Venezuelans to rat out friends and neighbors who had been associated with the Chavez administration and turn them in for arrest.

> When word gets out to the public, via international reports, that this had been a coup, not a resignation, RCTV bans its reporters from covering the story.

> 24 hours later, after widespread popular protests surround the presidential palace and the military captures coup leaders, RCTV suspends its news programming in favor of an emergency cartoon marathon.

links to the sources, are in the original blog post
http://www.borev.net/2007/01/and_you_thought_fox_news_was_c.html

[Zhade]

138. Why must you lie?

NT!

[bitchkitty]

226. Oh, please. Pure unadulterated crap.

Human rights abuses? Against whom? Freaking oil billionaires? Give me one small break...

[Warren Stupidity]

20. If he displeases the people of Venezuela

they may remove him through the recall process at any time.

[Zhade]

137. I know! Confiscating business charters from criminal enterprises hurting people!

The nerve he has, not letting businesses rip people off!

[spoony]

157. Yeah, lol

Why let private individuals rip people off when the government can get in on that action.

If Chavez kicked down the doors and seized control of every single privately owned business in the country, you'd find a way to excuse that, and that quality is infinitely amusing.

[Judi Lynn]

160. The companies recently "nationalized" were actually "re-nationalized."

They were not privatized until the Presidency of Carlos Andres Perez, who was impeached for massive corruption.

[paulk]

194. yeah, and they were first nationalized under the same guy

what's your point?

[Judi Lynn]

200. He got elected by pretending concern for the people. Nationalization was part of his lure.

It's something the people of Venezuela wanted and needed.

It didn't take them too long before they saw they had been conned by a major criminal.

What bearing does your post have, how does it alter or contradict anything I wrote? It would be illuminating if you contributed more information.

[paulk]

205. I felt it was important to point out that you left out a few things

about Mr. Perez.

In your never ending attempts to rewrite history to the greater glory of Mr. Chavez and His Revolution.


ps - you're the one who needed to "contribute more information".

information which I provided for the curious readers out there...

--------------------


ps - There is disagreement over how much truth there were in the corruption charges against Perez, as I'm sure you are aware. There is speculation that political motivations played a large part in his downfall...

Also, it took Venezuelans quite a while to figure out they'd been "conned" .... hopefully, it will take them less time to see through their present leader.

[Judi Lynn]

206. Actually, I HAVE NOT seen any disgreement discussed on whether or not the man

who was impeached for massive corruption was actually corrupt. Here are only a very few of the sources I have on the subject:

Timeline: Venezuela
A chronology of key events

~snip~
1989 - Carlos Andres Perez (AD) elected president against the background of economic depression, which necessitates an austerity programme and an IMF loan. Social and political upheaval includes riots, in which between 300 and 2,000 people are killed, martial law and a general strike.
1992 - Some 120 people are killed in two attempted coups, the first led by future president Colonel Hugo Chavez, and the second carried out by his supporters. Chavez is jailed for two years before being pardoned
1993-95 - Ramon Jose Velasquez becomes interim president after Perez is ousted on charges of corruption; Rafael Caldera elected president.
1996 - Perez imprisoned after being found guilty of embezzlement and corruption.
(snip)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1229348.stm
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Buzz Words and Venezuela
by Saul Landau
Progreso Weekly, 1 July 2004
~snip~
One voice in the anti-Chavez chorus has a familiar ring to his voice. Former President Carlos Andres Perez gives TV and newspaper interviews as an authority on democracy and good government. Convicted of embezzlement and having given the command for army troops to fire at his own people, this mass murderer somehow claims to occupy moral high ground. And the media accepts him as if the Venezuela conflict boils down to questions of procedure, not real democracy: majority rule.
Venezuelans overwhelmingly chose Chavez in 1998 and again in 2000, because they remembered what former presidents did - a memory that neither the media nor human rights groups seem to possess.
On February 27, 1989, Perez increased the price of gasoline and the cost of public transportation. Following an IMF model to garner foreign investment, his austerity policies hit the poorest people hardest. But Perez apparently did not expect Venezuelans to respond to "economic shock" programs with spontaneous protests, which erupted throughout the country. In some areas, rioters torched shops and set up roadblocks.
When the police went on strike, the government lost control. Perez called for a state of emergency. The soldiers fired into crowds. By March 4, the government claimed that 257 lay dead. Some non-governmental sources estimated the death toll at over 2,000. Thousands were wounded.
Perez, who called himself a socialist, first imposed draconian measures on the poor and then had them shot when they objected. The Caracazo as the event became known, not only destroyed Venezuela's aura of stability but put an end to the political system that had replaced the ousted military dictator Perez Jimenez in 1958.
From then on until the Chavez victory, successive Christian Comite de Organizacion Politica Electoral Independiente (COPEI) and Social Democratic Accion Democratica (AD) governments had used the nation's immense oil wealth to distribute drops - or crumbs - just enough to maintain stability.
It took the IMF and World Bank - with strong backing from the Reagan government - and its neo-liberal offensive in the 1980s, to push Venezuelans into action. They rebelled against policies designed to further impoverish them and reward those who needed it least. Although the 1989 Caracazo emerged as an unplanned response to a set of new measure, the uprising also symbolized years of discontent over government corruption. The Caracazo destroyed the shady Perez, the prestige of the two major parties, and it opened the door to a more radical politics, outside the party structure.
(snip/…)

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/LAN407A.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



El Caracazo

~snip~
Yet at a time when few outsiders were taking much notice of events in Latin America - during the decade after the end of the Cold War - Venezuela suddenly emerged at the front of the field. It was the first country in Latin America to suffer from serious and debilitating government corruption, the first to react violently against externally-imposed policies of neo-liberalism and the so-called ‘Washington Consensus’, and the first to experiment with an entirely fresh and original programme of anti-globalisation. Contemporary politics in Venezuela begin with the ‘Caracazo’ of 1989, an explosion of political rage by the underclass in Caracas (and some other cities) against a neo-liberal programme imposed by a once-popular president (Carlos Andres Perez), who had just been elected to do something entirely different. For two days the city degenerated into violence of a kind not seen in Venezuela since the 19th century, sparked off by an increase in bus fares but reflecting a much wider political discontent. A thousand people, perhaps more, were killed in the subsequent repression by the armed forces.
(snip/…)

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:yPlqVkx4oNsJ:www.twnside.org.sg/title/twr149i.htm+Carlos+Andres+Perez+impeachment+Caracazo&hl=en&start=5

[paulk]

207. that's not surprising, considering your one sided take on

anything and everything having to do with Venezuela.

oh, and btw - Perez also served as President of VZ from 1974 – 1979. You know, back when he was a "leftist". I guess your "sources" just kind of left that part out?

[Judi Lynn]

210. Didn't you see the quote prior to your post which said this:

Contemporary politics in Venezuela begin with the ‘Caracazo’ of 1989, an explosion of political rage by the underclass in Caracas (and some other cities) against a neo-liberal programme imposed by a once-popular president (Carlos Andres Perez), who had just been elected to do something entirely different.?

Maybe I "fonted" too small.

[paulk]

214. gosh -

maybe I missed it cause it doesn't relate to my post...

or maybe it 's because the author (Richard Gott) is hardly unbiased ...

[Judi Lynn]

215. You're trying to discredit what I posted about Carlos Andres Perez,

his corruption, his impeachment.

This CANNOT be invalidated, as it's history. If it's not, go get your sources and post them.

Obviously, Perez is NOT left-wing, is he? Of course he isn't. He ran on a left wing ticket to get elected, and if he hadnot, he wouldn't have been elected.

He was impeached for his corruption. Facts remain.

[paulk]

217. the title of Mr. Gott's book alone -

"In the Shadow of the Liberator: Hugo Chávez and
the Transformation of Venezuela"

might lead one to suspect that his view of Chavez and the history of his ascent to power is not unbiased. He is clearly on Hugo's side...


Perez was most certainly a leftist during his first term in office, from 1974-79

"Carlos Andres Perez' political life starts at the age of 15, when he became an active member of the National Democratic Party, a clandestine political organization fighting against the dictatorship. He also co-operates with the first labor unions of said region. When he moved to Caracas, in 1939, he started an ascendant political career as a youth leader and founder of the Democratic Action party, in which he would play a very important role during the 20th century. Finally, the dictatorship was overthrown in November 1945, and Carlos Andres Perez was appointed Private Secretary to the Junta President, Mr. Romulo Betancourt, and becomes Cabinet Secretary by 1946. However, in 1948, when the opposition overthrows the democratic government, Carlos Andres Perez had to go to exile (Cuba, Costa Rica and Panama). He temporarily entered Venezuela secretly in order to complete special missions in his fight against dictatorship. He was imprisoned in various occasions and passed more than 2 years in jail. In 1958, after the fall of dictator Perez Jimeney, he returns to Venezuela, and begins to participate in the reorganization of the Democratic Action Party. He was appointed Minister of the Interior and made his mark as a tough, guerrilla-busting interior minister and canny machine politician.

In December 1973, Carlos Andres Perez was elected President by an overwhelming vote. His election campaign became historical: he visited nearly all villages and cities of Venezuela by foot and walked more than 5800 kilometers in his presidential campaign.

In his first term as president he was praised by for taking steps to nationalize the petroleum and iron ore industries in order to control profits. He used the raising incomes from the oil industry for sustainable development programs, among the famous scholarship program "Gran Mariscal de Ayacucho", which allowed more than 60,000 young Venezuelans from the working class to study in the best universities abroad. Following his policy, sustainable development is only possible through the education of the people. As first head of state, he was honored with the "Earth Care" award for his contribution of environmental protection. Carlos Andres Perez' international policy had become very important, as he called for the integration of Third World countries to regional organizations in order to strengthen their development and in order for them to gain importance in relation to the industrialized countries. He notably saw the OPEC as an instrument for ALL underdeveloped countries to improve their conditions towards first world countries. Nevertheless, he maintained excellent relations with European and North American governments during his presidency. After his first presidency, Carlos Andres Perez made a worldwide effort to create an independent, non-governmental Commission, integrated by representatives of Third World countries. Carlos Andres Perez worked with Tanzania's former President, Julius Nyerere, in the organization this South-South Commission. He actively participated in the organization International Socialists, whose Vice-President he was for three consecutive terms, under the presidency of Willy Brandt, Germany. Willy Brandt and Carlos Andres Perez, together with Francisco Pena Gomez, a political leader from the Dominican Republic, expanded the activities of the International Socialists from Europe to Latin America. Carlos Andres Perez also participated in democratization process in Spain, as he brought Felipe Gonzalez, who was living in exile, back to Spain in a private flight and thus strengthened the PSOE. In 1988, he became a Member of the Council of Freely-Elected Heads of Government, established by the former President of the United States, H.E. Jimmy Carter. Carlos Andres Perez was elected Chairman of the Harvard University Conference on Foreign Debt in Latin America, in September 1989, and receives the Henry and Nancy Bartels Award on World Affairs at Cornell University.



Mr. Perez started off his political career on the left side of the spectrum, but gradually became more authoritarian in his approach - culminating in the Caracas massacres, during his second term.

He was later accused of corruption and impeached. Depending on which side you choose to believe, his arrest was either legitimate or was politically motivated. I don't know the truth of it - but, I'm no more willing to accept the Chavista version of history than I'm willing to accept a RW version. The truth probably lies somewhere in between.

---------------------------


It's important for you to paint Perez in the worst possible light because the lesson of Perez's political career can be applied a little too closely to Chavez... a man who started out with good intentions, yet has increasingly shown an authoritarian bent.

[Judi Lynn]

218. Nope, I learned about Perez's impeachment and El Caracazo LONG

before I ever heard of his nationalization of the oil industry.

Sorry, you've pulled that one outta where you're sitting. Way, way off.

[paulk]

222. ?????????????????????

???????????????????????????

what are you talking about

[Judi Lynn]

219. Let's stay on topic, why not? It's not that I'm a commie,or a Chavez-humper,it's Carlos Andres Perez

was impeached for massive corruption, and DU'ers who actually would wonder if it's true or not have a lot of reading ahead, as it's all over the place, and Richard Gott and skulking leftists didn't invent it.

Here we go, another example:

Last Updated: Thursday, 1 February 2007, 10:07 GMT

Timeline: Venezuela
A chronology of key events

~snip~
1989 - Carlos Andres Perez (AD) elected president against the background of economic depression, which necessitates an austerity programme and an IMF loan. Social and political upheaval includes riots, in which between 300 and 2,000 people are killed, martial law and a general strike.

BBC's Nick Miles on the return to power
1992 - Some 120 people are killed in two attempted coups, the first led by future president Colonel Hugo Chavez, and the second carried out by his supporters. Chavez is jailed for two years before being pardoned

1993-95 - Ramon Jose Velasquez becomes interim president after Perez is ousted on charges of corruption; Rafael Caldera elected president.

1996 - Perez imprisoned after being found guilty of embezzlement and corruption.
(snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1229348.stm

Now Richard Gott didn't write that, did he?

[Flanker]

220. It is stupid to call CAP a leftist when the real crimes occurred in his second term

When he was clearly a rightwinger... The issue of left and right is so different nowadays to what it was in the 1970's the problem with letting the rightwing take control of the agenda. During the 1970's Chavez actions (but without the bluster) might have even been aplauded by Washington, today they are communism to the media. Never lose sight of right wing propaganda. They infest everything.

Anyhow CAP was elected to do what Chavez is doing right now, but he betrayed the electorate and the massacres followed.

[paulk]

225. I am on topic

another of your favorite "debate" tactics is to roll out these little personal denigrations as part of your reply.

How many times are you going to post that same chronology?

[Judi Lynn]

227. As long as it continues to be true. Thanks for asking.

It's almost like waving a cross at a vampire, isn't it?

[seriousstan]

6. Viva Che Chavez

[stillcool]

26. this is how we do it on the cheap...

http://covertaction.org//content/view/170/75/
During June 1984 there suddenly appeared in the border town of Ocotal, Nicaragua‑just after a June I FDN attack ‑ a 16‑page printed pamphlet in comic book form, entitled "Manual of Struggle for Liberty." Though designed to look as though it had been produced locally and clandestinely by the FDN, the Associated Press confirmed through official sources that the manual was the handiwork of the CIA.

This "practical guide to liberate Nicaragua from the oppression and paralyzing misery" of the "traitor" government presents ideas and semi‑technical information for use in sabotage and destruction, without requiring money, special resources, or training.


Some of the tasks the CIA instructs the manual's readers to do include:

Going to work late; calling in sick; failing to repair vehicles; throwing tools down drains; leaving water taps on; leaving lights on; short circuiting the electricity; breaking light bulbs; dropping typewriters; and ripping up books.

Others include: spreading rumors; hoarding food; threatening supervisors and officials over the phone; painting anti‑government slogans on walls; putting dirt or water in gas tanks; and stopping up toilets and sewers.

Others are more sinister and dangerous, including: cutting fire alarm cables and calling in false alarms; throwing nails and rocks on highways‑, setting fires in storage areas; and throwing Molotov cocktails at fuel storage areas.

[Judi Lynn]

34. That's a great little bit of information. So glad to see it. I'll be keeping my eyes out

for similar things from now on. Low down, dirty, filthy destabilization done in a completely dishonest, underhanded way. All financed unknowlingly by U.S. taxpayers.

[w4rma]

32. Why all the focus on that country? How is this big news? Is it because they have oil?

Apparently no Americans, of consequence, own anything in that industry, in that nation. Who cares? This is all internal to Venezuela.

[Contrite]

33. Why not read about it in the VENEZUELAN press?

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2219

Apparently the rationale is to control price gouging and inflation as well as to protect the food supply.

“A supplier that sells meat above the regulated price we will intervene and give to a communal council,” said Chavez, adding that the councils would probably not engage in price gouging.

Chavez’s and his minister’s announcements today and yesterday closely followed an announcement on Monday that meat would be exempt from sales tax from now on and that there would be new subsidies for agricultural production. Also, Iglesias had already announced on Monday that the government is working on two law-decrees, to be passed under Chavez’s recently approved authority to pass such decrees, which would protect against problems in the food supply.

[Judi Lynn]

35. Very good to see that article. Can't get a clue about why some people want to protect the rights

of crooked store owners to rip off the people of Venezuela.

Kinda creepy, isn't it?

All they have to do to stay in good relationship to the legal system is to avoid abusing their customers. An honest person wouldn't have a bit of trouble with that.

[Mudoria]

51. Nice spin..

[Zhade]

139. It's fact, not spin.

It's about punishing crooks. Even the Seattle Times printed that.

[gorbal]

152. I hope people listen to how you put that

I think it is the buildup of anti-Chavez articles in the coorperate controlled press that make it tempting to take a centrist view. I have trouble imagining any of the Democrats being friendly with Chavez under these circumstances. The fear of being seen standing an inch to close to a socialist must be brain-numbing.

[Judi Lynn]

153. It's a strange stage in human "developement," isn't it?

With any luck, people are finally going to get damned tired of holding their breath, trying to tiptoe around their lives, fearing anything they say or do which doesn't support the "Me First" doctrine of U.S. Republicans will target them for labeling as non-patriotic, "communist-loving," "terrorist-"enabling, and just get back to life.

We've had so much goddamned Neo-McCarthyism it would make a maggot gag. Sooner or later we're going to put it all behind us.

They are oafish, idiot children, who must have everything going just the way their extremist leaders say it must, or they'll raise holy hell. Right-wing Republicans have a large number of these imbeciles out attempting to control the tone and flow of message boards. I've seen it going on since 2000, when I first discovered message boards. These people have such a heavy hand, are so oppressive, the only way you can fight them is to come prepared with the facts.

I know you are well acquainted with their loutish group habit of bearing down on people, then, when given the actual facts to ponder, simply switch the subject and attack somewhere else, WITHOUT EVER CONCEDING THEIR ERROR. Completely dishonest.

Eventually they are going to see people were afraid, and looked the other way, backed away, to keep from being smeared, and that people think very poorly of them, consider them idiots. Eventually people will learn to adapt to the bullying in this new medium which the right-wingnuts have seized and exploited far too long. They don't bring anything to a discussion, and they block real dialogue. But then, that would be a goal, wouldn't it?

[spoony]

158. And if people are honest and law-abiding

they shouldn't object to wire-tapping, warrantless searches, etc...

See where such "trust the government, if you are legit you have no reason to worry" has gotten us? Where do you think it'll get them?

[Judi Lynn]

161. If you'll read for comprehension, you'll see they don't run the risk of

trouble with the government if they refrain from abusing the people of Venezuela.

Seems easy to me.

[spoony]

177. Yeah, and as I said,

it's the same ovine handing of power over to a small group of people that, every single time, results in the abuse of that great power. The "if you're not doing anything wrong..." defence is the oldest authoritarian line in the book, and it stinks whether it's coming from a neocon or a Chavez.

[Bacchus39]

45. those horrible corner "tienda" owners

shame on them for trying to make a living.

[Bridget Burke]

49. "Tienda" & "Supermercado" are not synonyms.

And food distributors are definitely not small-timers.

If they want to eke out their modest livings, perhaps they can obey the laws about hoarding.

[Bacchus39]

52. did you read Hugo's quote

what would you call a corner store???

"If they remain committed to violating the interests of the people, the constitution, the laws, I'm going to take the food storage units, corner stores, supermarkets and nationalize them," Chavez said during a televised broadcast. "So prepare yourselves"

[Bridget Burke]

55. Any corner store that violates the interests of the people....

Is not very high up on my sympathy list.

[Bacchus39]

56. like selling food??

or making a living?

[Bridget Burke]

78. No, I don't much like selling food.

But I do make a living.

[originalpckelly]

64. Why not indeed, then we can get the authentic authoritarian bias...

and not just the knockoff bias we have in the US.

:eyes:

[rinsd]

74. Because VA .com is Chavez's mouthpiece

Its like going to Newsmax for the straight scoop.

[killbotfactory]

91. You're not going to get a neutral view of Venezuela

And we all know those who try to defend what is happening in Venezuela should be dismissed out of hand. Instead we should look to beacons of truth like Condi Rice.

[rinsd]

101. That's the point, to avoid outright nouthpieces

At its absolute most critical of Chavez, VA.com treats him like an royalty.

[killbotfactory]

103. Like when they post stories from the notoriously pro-Chavez Financial Times?

Like this one?
http://venezuelaanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1947

Take a look at the economy section, notice how most of the stories are just reprinted articles from other sources?
http://venezuelaanalysis.com/articles.php?sec=econ

Or is it that add relevant facts to stories that somehow are always left out of mainstream news accounts about Venezuela that you object to?

[rinsd]

117. The FT article was fairly even handed.

Perhaps they could be used as a source from now on.

"Take a look at the economy section, notice how most of the stories are just reprinted articles from other sources"

I did notice that few of those articles were critical.

[Peace Patriot]

36. I wish we had such a "dictator" here, who would do the same thing to

gas-gouging oil companies, medical insurance and health care profiteers, and war profiteers.

Think what Harry Truman would have done to Halliburton, or what FDR would have done to Exxon-Mobile, or what Teddy Roosevelt would have done to the Carlyle Group.

Hugo Chavez is in that category of courageous advocate of the people against businesses who would exploit the poor and rob them for the basic necessities of life.

They called FDR a "dictator" with every New Deal program. Corporations, bankers, the super-rich and the fascists hated him. Same with Chavez. They don't want anyone who represents the interests of the people to have a lot of power.

The two sources cited above by the anti-Chavez posters are AP and ABC News--two of the worst war profiteer corporate news monopolies. They seem to bow over these articles reverentially--sacred talismans of "Chavez as dictator" religion. Funny, they never talk about the people who elected Chavez, at ABC News, or in any AP article that I have ever read. They don't report on THE HUGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO ARE BENEFITING FROM THE CHAVEZ GOVERNMENT AND WHO SUPPORT THAT GOVERNMENT. Where are their stories? Where are their quotes? How is it, now, for the people who can read for the first time, or are benefiting from a free university education, or who have received a small business loan from their country's own oil profits, or who now have enough to eat, or who now have medical care, when they never saw a doctor before in their lives, or who have big plans to become teachers or welders or engineers or scientists, who, a few decades ago might have been thrown out of an airplane by the CIA and its local death squads for leftist political activity?

No, they seek and find one voice with a negative viewpoint--an aged rival politician, who obviously feels sour grapes.

Such obvious, blatantly slanted reporting, coverage and editing! It's not that I don't want to read various opinions. It's that AP and ABC News give ONLY ONE OPINION, among millions of people who SUPPORT CHAVEZ POLICIES. They NEVER provide any other point of view. To my mind, this is propaganda and brainwashing, not journalism.

So we can judge these posters and commenters, and the quality of their information and thought about Venezuela, by the sources they cite.

For anyone visiting this thread who wants to read something substantative about Venezuela and the Bolivarian revolution, I recommend www.venezuela.com.

[ProudDad]

156. Thanks, Peace Patriot

I couldn't have said it better!

[muryan]

213. thus begins the eventual downward spiral of the country

i hope im wrong, but history says otherwise

[tblue]

37. I understand his kicking out the US companies and I know the poor people of Venez love him

The middle and upper classes are very nervous. I just hope he treats the people well, so he doesn't become just another megalomaniacal despot. Why is it so hard to find that perfect balance between capitalism and taking care of the people's fundamental needs?

[hogwyld]

38. Because they are incompatible

Capitalism is an exploitative econimic system that values profits over the rights and benefits of the poor. Good on Hugo for returning the basic necessities of life to the people, and out of the greedy paws of rampant capitalists. With this new nationalization, hopefully there will be no rich, or no poor, only one large middle class.

Edited for grammar

[Marrah_G]

60. That is a fantasy

Somehow you think nationalizing everything will make everyone equal. It will not.

Are you seriously thinking that your localtaxi driver for example, will have the same type of housing as Chavez?

Are you seriously thinking that the local store Clerk will have the same comforts as Chavez?

Are you seriously thinking that the local hair stylist will drive the same car as Chavez?

etc etc etc........

You know he will live far better then the rest, you might not want to think about it, but he is never going to be the one struggling when the monthly food coupons are gone and there are still 10 days left on the calendar.

There is no society yet in which all people share equally. There is ALWAYS a group who lives better then the rest, the problem is, when the state owns everything then the average joe has no hope to ever have anything more then what the top tier allows him.

Humanity has yet to come up with the perfect community.

[Judi Lynn]

39. Different tone to this Chicago Tribune version of the story:Chavez hints he may nationalize grocerie

Chavez hints he may nationalize groceries

Items compiled from Tribune news services
Published February 15, 2007


CARACAS, VENEZUELA -- President Hugo Chavez threatened Wednesday to nationalize any privately owned supermarkets and food storage facilities caught hoarding inventories or violating price controls imposed on basic goods.

Accusing private companies of hoarding beef and other foods, Chavez warned supermarket owners and distributors that he would nationalize their facilities as soon as they gave him "an excuse."

"If they remain committed to violating the interests of the people, the constitution, the laws, I'm going to take the food storage units, corner stores, supermarkets and nationalize them," Chavez said during a televised broadcast.
(snip/)

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0702150080feb15,1,6840965.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

[redqueen]

208. What, no "threats" this time?

Wonder why the Tribune isn't jumping on board with the anti-Chavez fearmongering...

[Judi Lynn]

212. Momentarily distracted, no doubt! They're off their game, aren't they?

Maybe they had a bigger fire to put out, like some truth about _Bush's administration to conceal.

[Vidar]

40. Trying to keep food affordable, what a sin!

[killbotfactory]

57. He's violating the right of grocers to gouge the poor!

Dictator!

[rinsd]

75. Because central planning and fixed pricing worked out oh so well elsewhere

Never any shortages there...

:eyes:

Why is food no longer affordable? Chavez has had near total power for 4 years now. What has changed to suddenly make food not affordable which in his eyes necessitates the move to nationalisation?

[killbotfactory]

86. Food is no longer available

because people are hoarding it in order try and drive up the price.

[rinsd]

105. You can't "drive" up a price that is govenrment controlled.

Chavez is ruling be decree and learning that people don't like that.

His price controls have created a black market.

[killbotfactory]

106. No, but you can hoard food and make conditions miserable

until the government raises the price, which is what they are attempting.

[rinsd]

121. Only because it has gotten to a crisis point.

"government raises the price, which is what they are attempting."

Which is why they should have stayed away from price controls in the 1st place.

[Zhade]

141. Yes, they should have just allowed the poor to continue starving.

NT!

[rinsd]

143. Instead they can have price controls and shortages leading to starving

Its win-win

:eyes:

[Zhade]

144. You're right, punishing them for causing starvation by removing their ability to hoard is futile.

Why bother? Just let them continue to hoard food and starve and gouge people while getting away with it. Much better solution.

[rinsd]

148. Price controls have created the black market.

Price controls have not alleviated inflation though inflation is getting better thanks to serious debt reduction. Something Chavez should and does get kudos for.

The economy is booming in alot of respects across a broad scale and yet the people are so on the verge of starvation a radical solution must be enacted.

Why is that?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

119. Which is the inevitable result of central planning of food distribution.

It does not work on the scale of a country like Venezuela.

[eridani]

229. What "central planning" of food distribution?

Let's see some evidence that such a thing now exists in Venezuela.

[Judi Lynn]

230. Here's a report from a couple of years ago. Haven't had the time to go looking for more recent news

but this was the situation when this article was written, a list of the various structures created by the Venezuelan government to bring orderly help to the Venezuelan people who need it:

Mercal Mission
This program was created to trade and sell food and other essential products like medicines at affordable prices. It is worth mentioning that the Ministry of Food’s goal for 2005 was to set up 6,000 sale points; this represents 14,539,300 people benefiting from this program.

Also, 6,004 Soup Kitchens are working; these benefits 900,600 people by giving them free meals. These meals are given to the poorest sectors of the population. Regarding nutrition and protection, 1,374,312 people living in extreme poverty have benefited from this proram.

Thanks to the products of the Corporation for Agrofood Supply and services (CASA, Spanish Acronym) and Mercal (markets), people can save up to 34 percent in comparison with the prices regulated by the State and 37 percent in comparison with the market prices.
(snip)

http://www.venezuelasolidarity.org.uk/ven/web/2006/missions/social_missions.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Venezuela’s Chavez Announces Second Stage of Food Distribution Network

Venezuela Analysis
June 27, 2005
Sarah Wagner

Caracas, Venezuela, June 27, 2005—Yesterday, during his weekly television program Aló Presidente, Venezuela's President Hugo Chávez announced the second stage of the Mission Mercal with the approval of an addition $295 million. This money is designated towards expanding the network to provide 60 percent of the population, or roughly 15 million Venezuelans, with high quality basic food staples at up to a 50 percent discount by the end of the year. Chávez also inaugurated another 1,000 food houses (casas de alimentación), or soup kitchens, that are expected to be up and running by the mid July.
Mercal is the largest storage, distribution and wholesale food stuffs network in Venezuela's history. Dating back to April, 2003, Mercal was one of the programs created by the Chavez government to counter the country's massive dependency on imported food products. Currently the Mercal network consists of 14,000 stores and supplies 10 million Venezuelans with government subsidized food.

Using Victor Hugo's novel Les Misérables as a point of reference for the socio-economic divisions in a capitalist society, Chávez, alongside the Minister of Alimentation, General Rafael Oropeza and the Governor of the state of Falcón, Jesús Montilla, emphasized the importance of guaranteeing Venezuela's food sovereignty as well as the meeting the basic necessities of the Venezuelan people. "It is a bridge towards life," Chávez declared, adding that "this is socialism; capitalism is the kingdom of inequality, and in our country equality must be for everyone."

Additionally, Chávez inaugurated 1,000 food houses and announced that they will open their doors by July 15th. A food house, basically the equivalent of a US soup kitchen, targets groups such as senior citizens, pregnant women, and disabled persons, living in the most destitute conditions and provides them with a free lunch and an afternoon snack. Combined, these two meals contain 79 percent of a person's daily caloric needs.

Currently, there are 4,052 food houses that serve 600,000 people. With the opening of the 1,000 additional food houses, over 900,000 people will be served. It is expected that yet another 1,000 food houses will be opened within the next month, bringing the total to over 6,000.
(snip/...)

http://www.globalexchange.org/countries/americas/venezuela/3196.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~I located a much newer article, here:

Canadian authorities impressed with growth of Venezuela’s Food Missions

March 17th 2006

A delegation of Canadian authorities headed by the Vice Minister for Agriculture, Andrew Marsland, Canadian Ambassador in Caracas, Rene Wielgosz and a numerous group of industrial representatives visited the Venezuelan Food Ministry. Vice Minister Lt. Colonel Rafael Coronado received the Canadian delegation and views and experiences were interchanged with the aim of lending more “added value” to the Food Ministry.

At the meeting the growth of Mercal was discussed in detail. Mercal is a network of government food stores selling basic food stuffs at reasonable prices, and the “Soup Kitchens” (Mercal Maximum Protection) which cater for 900,000 Venezuelans, the most vulnerable in society, such as street dwellers, pregnant women living in poverty, abandoned children, alcoholics and drug addicts. Also on the agenda was genetic technology in order to increase meat and milk yields and an overview of the buying strategy of fruit and vegetables carried out by CASA (State Food Services Purchasing and Packing Company) from Canada.

“This week I am being accompanied by producers from the agricultural sector. We are looking for ways of increasing cooperation with Venezuela especially in the area of agricultural products. For example, Canada is a recognized world-wide as a producer of bovine genetics both for dairy products and beef production. We want to be able to work with the Venezuelan meat industry to help them increase milk and beef production”, stated Vice Minister Marsland.

After the meeting the delegation was invited to visit the Endogeneous Development Center “Fabricio Ojeda” in Gramoven in the west of Caracas, where a “Supermercal” is located. Vice Minister Marsland was very surprised by the modern characteristics and size of the Supermercal but what surprised him even more was the speed with which the Venezuelan Food Ministry had been able to set up a network of food distribution with such a wide range of products in less than three years.

Vice Minister Marsland observed, “I understand that there a more than 14 thousand points of sale throughout the country and all this has been achieved in less than three years. This is obviously a great achievement to place basic foodstuffs within the reach of the population as a whole”.

Ambassador Wielgosz remarked, “Mercal is really impressive and is a roaring success with the majority of the population. It’s been a real pleasure for me to come and see it and appreciate that it is just a marvellous as I had been told”.
(snip/...)

http://www.venezuelasolidarity.org.uk/ven/web/2006/articles/canada_impressed_food.html

~snip~

Another very successful program is the Mercal stores. These stores are government subsidized food programs where anyone can buy food discounted at 40% below market rate. There is an emphasis on products made and packaged in Venezuela and this food often has cartoons about the Venezuelan constitution on it so that people living in the barrios will become more aware of their rights and responsibilities as Venezuelan citizens. Mission Mercal has other components besides the stores. There are also community kitchens where any member of the community can come and get a nutritious meal every day. Priority is given to the pregnant, the disabled, children and the elderly. The community kitchen that we visited had a large living-dining room attached to it that was kind of a communal hang out with musical instruments available for anyone who wanted to use them.
(snip)

http://www.binghamtonpmc.org/newswire/display/1789/index.php

All that's missing is time, if you want more information, clear the decks, sit down and start researching. You'll find TONS of information if you have the time to go looking for it.

[eridani]

231. Sounds like a great idea to me

Governments ought to be in the business of supporting a basic floor of food security. Bored with the basics and looking for some variety? If you have the money, get all the bells and whistles you want.

[hollowdweller]

41. Too much Socialisim VS too much Corporatisim

I'll be interested to see how it all plays out down there.

I think if you give corporations too much power they have the money to buy control of industries that they loot and have no idea how to run because they have no knowledge of them and they either go under or they hire some CEO for an outrageous sum to run them which may or may not work out.

I think if the gov't gets control of too many industries, they can potentially not balance economics, social good, and politics and run the businesses into the ground too.

The thing that concerns me about Chavez is while he is doing all this stuff he's doing like King George and trying to control all branches of gov't. I really feel divided gov't works the best.

I have liked Chavez and really have hopes he might show how a greater socialisim than has been successful in Europe could be sucessful and lift all boats. Coming from Coal country it is refreshing to see him insist that extractive industry benefit all citizens.

However his consolidation of power and wanting to do too much at once has me worried he'll bite off more than he can chew and will end up another example of too much socialisim.

[Judi Lynn]

42. It's good to know the actual facts of this situation. They are clear, and easy to understand.

They are by-passed by the corporate media, and must be reiterated until more people have the picture straight:

Week of Feb. 08 to Feb. 14, 2007

Why Hugo Chávez was given more authority

By Maria Páez Victor, PhD.

This week the parliament of Venezuela gave President Hugo Chávez the authority to pass laws by decree for the next 18 months on 10 issues of domestic importance. This type of power has a time limit and an issue limit and is specifically allowed by Article 203 of the Venezuelan constitution.

It is not the first time President Chávez has been allowed this prerogative. Twice before he was given such powers, according to this constitutional provision, and he carried out the duties allowed to him by the parliament without any misstep or abuse of power.

A close look at Venezuelan history shows that this power, also enshrined in the past constitution, was given to presidents Rómulo Betancourt (1959) Carlos Andrés Pérez (1974), Jaime Lusinchi (1984) and Ramon Jose Velázquez (1993) to carry out decisions related to finance, external debt and creation of new state institutions among others. However, since these presidents were in friendly terms with the White House, there was no decrying of an erosion of Venezuelan democracy then.

In fact, during the past 40 years, and during previous presidential terms, glaring abuses of human rights have been committed in the country but not one word of protest or concern was uttered by Washington.
(snip/...)

http://www.progresoweekly.com/index.php?progreso=Maria_Paez&otherweek=1170914400

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

_Bush's view of what he wants for Venezuela is NOT what Venezuelans want for Venezuela. _Bush needs to keep his nose in his own business, and butt out, and take his propagandists with him.

[Judi Lynn]

46. It's a futile gesture attempting to enshrine the right-wing belief they are entitled to

go over the heads of the people of Latin America and the Caribbean and control their nations.

It wasn't right when they did it through terror, covert operations, Operation Condor, military coups, desabilization of leftists governments, bankrolling death squads to slaughter anyone who might possibly not support the right-wing puppets, it's not right now, and it won't be right in the future.

Leave Latin America and the Caribbean ALONE. Hands OFF.

No amount of scurrying around, trying to ridicule, undercut the posts made overnight will get the job done. Democrats just generally don't involve themselves in murderous domination grabs like right-wingers. That's truly low, vulgar, crude, dirty, vile. It's bound to finally fail spectacularly. You can't talk Democrats into supporting it.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

47. Rebirth of the GUM.

N/T

[JVS]

48. thi is HUGH!!!!11!!!!

[BayCityProgressive]

50. Good for Venezuela.

Viva Venezuela and socialism.

[Bacchus39]

59. sounds like Hugo needs to work on diversifying the economy

rather than sole reliance on the oil industry.

[killbotfactory]

61. He'll just snap his fingers and poof, it will be diversified.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he's trying to diversify the economy, using oil money to fund the change. Something previous administrations apparently never did.

[Bacchus39]

62. how many years has he been president?

n/t

[killbotfactory]

65. Since 1999, and they are making progress

This crisis has more to do with food providers not being happy with price limits and as a result hoarding food instead of selling it in order to pressure the government into raising prices.

[Bacchus39]

68. take away their business then, progress???

n/t

[killbotfactory]

69. If they are breaking the law and refuse to change?

Sure.

[Bacchus39]

72. one of the premises of a business is to make money

so the government is going to run the tiendas "corner stores". hahaha

[SOS]

111. Poor areas are grossly underserved here

Ever gone grocery shopping in a poor urban area?
Harlem just recently got it's first supermarket.
The "corner stores" have unhealthy food at astronomical prices. (Well, at least they'll cash food stamps while pocketing half the money for themselves.)
The owners are outsiders, because the entire area is redlined by the banking industry.
Diabetes in Harlem is now 20% of the population. Try finding quality food there.

The government, the banking industry, the real estate profiteers and yes, the poor little grocery store owner have gouged, underserved and malnourished these areas for decades.

Areas of human survival should be nationalized. Energy, electricity, housing and health care.
Food distribution should remain private, but with oversight to ensure equal access and fair prices to all citizens.

All the other glories of the free-market system like televised wrestling, sneakers with lights in them and porn magazines, should remain in the hands of the creative geniuses who produce them.

[Bacchus39]

120. those filthy tienda owners. the bane of every block in latin america

n/t

[Zhade]

145. So you're ignoring the fact that these businesses are breaking the law and causing starvation?

Is that not an important point in this discussion?

[Vidar]

169. Didn't you get the "manifest destiny" memo? The corporate

right to plunder & pillage supersedes concepts like legality, truth, & justice. This is the essence of the corporate freedom for which America stands

[happydreams]

195. One of the premises of organized crime is to make money too.

[Vidar]

168. Give the business to the people the business is robbing.

[treestar]

63. If he says he's going to have socialism, then that's

socialism, isn't it?

Not saying I agree but it's not inconsistent with the plan, and if the people want socialism, the state will own the means of production.

[Zhade]

128. Uh, we used to do the same thing. It was called a business charter.

OH NOES, Chevez is going to take away the right to run a specific business location for BREAKING THE LAW!

:eyes:

[Vidar]

170. Too true.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

135. It's their country

If he goes to far, the people of Venezuela know how to take matters into their own hands--unlike the complacent, TV-addled North Americans.

[gorbal]

151. Just to make sure everyone reads up on the other side

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/

and don't forget how the nationalization of the telecome industry went-

Caracas, February 13, 2007 (venezuelanalysis.com)— The Venezuelan government and New York-based Verizon Communications Inc.’s executive vice president for strategy, development and planning, John Diercksen, yesterday signed a memorandum of understanding for the government’s purchase of the private company’s majority stake in the country’s largest telecommunications company, Compania Anonima Nacional Telefonos de Venezuela (CANTV).

“We worked on, and discussed this price with Verizon, and the negotiated cost satisfies Verizon and the Venezuelan State,” Telecommunications Minister Jesse Chacon stated at the event held last night to sign the agreement.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=2218

[On the Road]

183. Right -- the Telecom Stock Panicked When the Nationalizaion Was Announced

and the price of VNT olummeted overnight from about 20 to a low of about 11.

I figured that Chavez would work out a fair deal, and picked some between 12 and 13. A couple weeks later, it was trading at over 17. Quick thousand dollars off the red panic.

[Moby Grape]

159. since gasoline costs 12 cents,there has got to be a deal somewhere

world wholesale gasoline price is about $1.60.

trade gasoline for chickens, or something

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1566

[Flanker]

163. The threat seemed to have a positive effect

Prices dropped all around, including the informal market that pays no taxes.

http://economia.eluniversal.com/2007/02/16/ccs_art_180991.shtml

[happydreams]

196. Nice followup. I wonder what would happen in the US if

threats of nationalization of the oil industry became more pronounced?

[brentspeak]

171. Uh, I didn't mind that he was nationalizing the energy companies...

...but the middle class businesses????

This isn't looking good.

[Judi Lynn]

172. Try to read more closely.

As a DU'er wrote, "strive to understand, THEN strive to be understood."

[Matilda]

175. Chevez's right to rule by decree

doesn't apply to any and every aspect of government; only to carry out
certain specific reforms.

And the Supreme Court has the right under the Venezuelan Constitution
to oversee his actions and rule on anything he does that it considers
oversteps the boundaries of what is legal. The National Assembly also
has the right to modify or even repeal any law that Chavez decrees.

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2007/698/36248


Chavez is still ruling by the Constitution, unlike Carmona who suspended
the Constitution and dissolved the National Assembly within minutes of
seizing power in 2002. When Chavez does that, we can start worrying.

[Judi Lynn]

176. OH, this is REALLY good, Matilda. It mentions points NEVER admitted in ANYTHING

we've read in corporate media, and it's easy to see why: they just wouldn't fit the vile images they've been attempting to see the American public about the Venezuelan government.

From the article you just posted:

Most important, as Chavez pointed out at his February 1 press conference, under Venezuela’s constitution, which Chavez insisted was “the broadest and most democratic in the world”, any law, including any law Chavez passes by decree, can be overturned by the people via a national referendum.

Wilpert explained that under Article 74, a referendum to annul any legislation can be held if 10% of the electorate sign a petition calling for it. For laws passed by decree, that percentage is only 5%. This means in Venezuela a petition signed by around 800,000 registered voters would force a referendum on any law Chavez passes.

This is a dramatic extension of democracy that doesn’t exist in most countries, where pro-corporate politicians can force through highly unpopular legislation with the citizens having no legal recourse. This is combined in Venezuela with the right to recall any elected official half way through their term. The opposition used this in 2004 against Chavez, who won the subsequent referendum with just under 60% of the vote.
(snip)

Really, REALLY great information.

[ProudDad]

178. Damn, I wish we had that option

we could get rid of NAFTA, GATT and WTO in a heartbeat!!!

[Judi Lynn]

181. We could get rid of them all, and the majority of citizens in other countries

could breath a sigh of relief.

[happydreams]

197. Now that is Democratic Socialism. The US could take a lesson

in democracy from all of this.

[redqueen]

209. It could, but too many here drink the 'oh noes! socialists!' kool aid...

even here!

:banghead:

[ProudDad]

179. Hell, if the elites don't want to do business

in Venezuela according to Venezuelan rules (designed to help the majority of the Venezuelan people EAT) then let them go somewhere else.

[redqueen]

211. Well first they have to try to use the same tricks

that worked against Allende... worth a shot, huh?

[AikidoSoul]

193. Chavez:"Socialism of the twenty-first century" -"...appreciates the failures of past revolutions..."

"This brand of socialism, its adherents claim, appreciates the failures of past revolutions, in particular the failure to create genuinely 'participatory democracies.'”


http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200605/chavez/3


The Chavistsa Society

Chávez describes his approach to government as “socialism of the twenty-first century,” a phrase borrowed from the German-Mexican theorist Heinz Dieterich, among others. This brand of socialism, its adherents claim, appreciates the failures of past revolutions, in particular the failure to create genuinely “participatory democracies.” Chávez, his intellectual supporters argue, has come much closer to hitting the mark, especially since the unveiling of his controversial new constitution in 1999.

Under the auspices of that document, the president can be recalled by a referendum, and the poor can launch privately owned cooperatives, subsidized by the state. Chávez has energetically promoted those aspects of the constitution that grant more power to “the people.” Many people on the street carry little blue books that contain the text of the new document. They read it on the subway and can cite its verses from memory. Seemingly every Chavista I met wanted to send me away with a copy. Even taxi drivers and maids have become constitutional boors.

<<<<SNIP>>>>>

[happydreams]

198. Thanks for that. Great Stuff. I wanna get a copy of the "blue book".

:hi:

[Judi Lynn]

201. Absolutely thanks, also. Looking forward to reading the whole article. n/t