Duke Lacrosse Case Charges To Be Dropped

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

Source: ABC News

The office of North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper will announce that he is dismissing all charges against three Duke Lacrosse players, ABC News has learned from sources close to the case.

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3028515&page=1

[Big Pappa]

1. Yeah over a year

later and how many millions in legal bills. Why because of one womens scorn and a DA wanting to get elected.

[Tunkamerica]

2. yep, in local news

all the national media and the suspects have returned to durham for some big announcement.

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

4. Exciting

It'd been a long time coming for the three falsely accused. . .

[sasquatch]

3. May the lawsuits begin!

Mike Nifong please just leave your ass and assets in the the three Duke kids possession please.

[Bitwit1234]

5. Three young men whose lives were ruined

because a corrupt district attorney wanted to make a name for himself. If he had done what he was supposed to they would not have been charged in the first place.

[superconnected]

30. lives were ruined?

Somehow I don't think they were, in this case.

[Ignacio Upton]

43. They well off enough so that they're not ruined financially

But wherever they go, this damn case will still hang over them, and there will be some who still think that they did it (thankfully, not many, considering the circumstances of the case.) Now, on to disbarring Nifong!

[Mike Daniels]

124. I'd say their reputations will always carry a certain stain

because some people will refuse to ever accept their innocence despite all evidence to the contrary.

[Renew Deal]

132. Yeah right

Imagine having to go through the legal system, get thrown out of school, publically humiliated, and wrongly accused for a year. You don't think that messes up your life? And this isn't even counting the legal bills.

[Mike Daniels]

142. I heard legal bills averaged about $1 million per defendant

Apparently, they are looking to sue Nifong, Durham, NC State and possibly Duke on civil charges.

One can only hope that that awarded damages will at least allow them to recoup the legal expenses.

[Honeycombe8]

156. I'm sure some life savings were wiped out...

even if the families were wealthy. Even if they weren't, that's a heckavu lot of money to lose to legal bills for something that should've been dropped long ago.

Imagine, as one of the young men said, what would have happened to them if their families had not had those resources to put up a fight.

I hope they do sue someone and win. But they may decide just to move on. Even if they win against Nifong, he doesn't have the money to compensate them, I'm sure.

[slackmaster]

140. I think the only way they can be made whole again is with book deals, interviews, etc.

Not necessarily ruined, but changed. Their lives are irreversibly altered from what would have been had the accusations never been made. They're just going to have to cash in on this somehow.

I hope they make a mint on it.

[Duppers]

138. because of a corrupt DA and because of the accuser

why should she be let off the hook here?

[Name removed]

6. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[youngdem]

7. Good. Now, Nifong is gonna have to give up his house to the Duke Lacrosse team

I hope Nifong is sentenced to the cumulative years he was attempting to pin on these innocent young men for cynical political gain. We must not allow our justice system to be abused for personal or political gain, whether it be political prosecutions by US Attys for the Bush administration or political prosecutions by a local DA in a close race in a mixed city.

Credibility of our judicial system is what separates us from a banana republic.

[robcon]

8. I don't thinkl Nifong will lose much.

DA's have (limited) immunity from lawsuits, so the lacrosse players will get little or nothing from him, IMO.

[Cheney Killed Bambi]

12. I believe

he will likely have some measure of personal immunity, but his local district will be vulnerable to a civil rights suit.

[marshall]

13. It hinges on the lab guy's testimony

He's already hung Nifong out to dry by saying they colluded to conceal evidence. I think Nifong's legal protection only covers him so long as he does not knowingly and willfully disobey the law. It only covers him for explainable errors of judgment or misunderstandings.

[SilentService]

104. other than

Other than losing his license. He stands a good chance of being disbarred.

[AngryAmish]

9. No justice, no peace

[Zandor]

10. My concern is the impact on the struggle for racial equality

Of course I'm glad innocent people were released of the charges. I just hope it doesn't add unnecessary scrutiny to other black women that accuse white men of rape. They already face an uphill climb in our society and justice system.

[Countdown_3_2_1]

155. EVERY Accusasion should come under equal scrutiny

Anf false accusations should be prosecuted...this gal needs to do some serious jail time.

[robcon]

11. Justice, IMO, will mean Nifong will be disbarred.

His behavior has been a disgrace to the legal profession.

[Bake]

14. Gosh, where's the outrage about this???

I recall over a year ago when a huge contingent of DUers were ready to send the Duke players to jail -- after all, we have a woman who accused them, what more evidence do we need anyway? These men have had criminal charges hanging over their heads for over a year. Talk about having your life ruined! Where's the outrage over that, DU? Where are all the journalists calling for Nifong to be fired? Or for the lying accuser to be sent to jail for her crimes?

Where's the outrage? I'm just asking.

Bake

[ohio2007]

15. The outrage can be found in the archive pages from a year ago nt

[Bake]

19. I was here then. Far too little outrage, if you ask me.

Bake

[ohio2007]

23. That depends on which side of the outrage fence you were on at the time.

If you said that the "jocks" of Duke were being unfairly treated....you got flamed if not outright asked to leave and never come back.
I remember what could have been hundreds of Duke threads saying "Burn the children of the rich blue bloods". Send them to prison where they will know what rape is all about..ect.

[Bake]

25. Exactly! There was PLENTY of "that" outrage.

Nobody seemed to give a damn about due process ... take them out and shoot them was the order of the day.

The outrage I'm missing here is over false, malicious criminal charges being held over three young men's heads for over a year, finally to be dropped because there was no case in the first place. That pretty much pisses me off.

And hoping that the lying accuser gets mental help? I hope she goes to JAIL. What she did was a CRIME, as in, a VIOLATION OF STATUTE, CRIMINAL OFFENSE.

Maybe DU should send flowers to the Duke players.

Yeah. Right.

Bake

[TheWraith]

27. I feel just a little smug in knowing I've advocated for restraint in judgement the whole time.

And took a lot of heat for it, including more than a few people informing me that I hated women and loved rape.

Yes, it would be nice to see some of the people who were ready to hang these guys fess up to their behavior, but no, it's not likely. Even in the supposedly reality-based community, there are a lot of people who are too tied to their own perceptions and preconceived notions to accept being wrong.

This actually reminds me of a discussion I was hearing yesterday about emotion and emotional responses in the justice system, where the automatic guilty response that many people have is based on an a visceral emotional reaction of associating the accused with the accusation. That if you're accused, you must be guilty, which leads to the lynch mob mentality that trials are for innocent people. It's for this very reason that we deliberately have a justice system that when it works, is designed to filter emotion out of the equation, turning cases into a perponderence of dry facts. That's why I always find suspect any attempts to invoke an emotional investment, particularly on the side of the accusing party, since it speaks to me of a weakness in evidence.

[Frank Cannon]

28. Don't feel smug; just feel rational and sane

and enjoy the markedly decreased blood pressure you're experiencing by letting the court system work it out, as it was designed to. Granted, that system certainly doesn't work all the time, but I don't think anyone has a right to express ANY real informed opinion about a case like this until the system has played itself out.

Just my fiftieth of a dollar.

[Duppers]

139. yes, where are all the threads of outrage now?

Where were all the INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY threads then and where are all the threads of condemnation now?

WHERE'S THE OBJECTIVITY?

Where's Jesse Jackson's apology? Anderson Cooper played back his comments of a year ago and asked if he thought he owed these young men an apology. He said "NO"!!!!!



Before anyone accuses me, please know that I am a female who has been raped! But I believe in objectivity and truth above all partisan issues.

[Mike Daniels]

148. Jesse proves with that one comment that it's not about justice

but about how fast he can get in front of a camera for some face time.

[mconvente]

129. Actually, considering the stuff that was here last year, I'm shocked that people are happy

about the charges being dropped. It was definitely 90-10 in favor of putting the three accused in jail immediately. Yes, we now know of personal agendas by the prosecutors, but let's see some outrage against the prosecutors. A man or a woman can accuse someone falsely of sexual abuse, etc., and the accused's life is ruined, and then the accuser is all like "oops, i lied" or "oops i got the person wrong" and all that's given is a petty "i'm sorry", meanwhile the accused can't do anything - get a job, whatever. So I'm pissed the hell off at the prosecutor and the accuser and we should rail against them.

[knight_of_the_star]

145. Ditto on that

I hate to be a prick about this but at least I can say I wasn't rushing to give them a new necktie but as saying something doesn't smell right, then the rape kit came back and I knew it was bs.

[pnwmom]

114. I remember those too. And as the mother of

a daughter and son in college, it really bothered me.

[Catchawave]

75. I just came from another thread where DUers

STILL think they're guilty. So sad.

[Mike Daniels]

125. Guilty because a black woman would never lie about being raped

by a bunch of priviledged white guys.

I guess the name Tawana Brawley doesn't ring a bell for those people.

[johnnyrocket]

128. I'm shocked at the prejudice on DU, thinking, that because they're rich white boys...

...they'd just have to be guilty of rape. It's obvious these guys were railroaded.

[Tunkamerica]

134. nifong was removed

and censured by the state bar

[ohio2007]

16. At least the plaintiff gets to keep the free education offered by Duke

Right?
Jesse Jackson got at least one person a tuition free ride to Duke out of this.
I hope she takes full advantage of it.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

17. I think the offer was for tuition at NC Central

where the accuser is a student and where tuition is nearly $35K less than at Duke. I sincerely hope the accuser gets the mental health assistance she needs and hopefully she will realize how much damage she has done with her accusations, made a thousand times worse by an incompetent DA who was clearly trying to win an election.

[moez]

18. I hope she does time.....

She screwed up those kids lives and needs to pay for it.

[Bake]

20. I sincerely hope the accuser goes to jail.

What she did actually IS a CRIME.

Bake

[knight_of_the_star]

149. She should

Filing a false report is a felony last time I checked.

[ohio2007]

22. Tuition to a jr college, not Duke?

She did get raped on that settlement bc in the media last year they made it sound like Duke offered the ride to their school.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

24. NC Central is not a jr college

it is a four-year university part of the University of North Carolina system. Check out www.nccu.edu. It also offers NC's only part-time JD program.

That being said, just providing tuition to a school does not mean admission. Even if Jesse Jackson had offered free tuition at Duke, Duke would still have to make a decision on the person's admission and Duke is notoriously stingy on admissions.

[Mike Daniels]

37. Has Jesse withdrawn the tuition in light of the recent developments?

I remember him last stating that the woman still deserved a chance to better herself so that the tuition was still there for the taking.

Personally, I would think not filing false charges of rape would be a good start towards bettering yourself.

It's cases like this that reveal that for Jesse it's not always about justice but rather about getting face time in front of the cameras.

[Bake]

31. I think the actual evidence is that she didn't get raped AT ALL.

She may, however, have been trying to put the squeeze on Duke and/or the players for a pile of cash. Which I believe is called extortion.

Bake

[AlCzervik]

21. When will Jesse Jackson be flying down there to apologize to the accused i wonder?

[ronnykmarshall]

50. Don't hold your breath.

[NaturalHigh]

55. Actually, I'm wondering when there will be apologies from DUers...

who declared these guys guilty right off the bat and accused anyone who didn't believe the stripper's story of being "rape apologists." I don't expect that to happen anytime soon, though, from the Dworkinites who believe that all men are guilty until proven innocent.

[slackmaster]

83. Here's one from DUer Lerkfish

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x626835

[Spiffarino]

76. She should get tuition to Broughton

For those not familiar, it's a psychiatric hospital upstate in Morganton, NC.

This woman has serious issues. If she is in fact mentally ill she needs to be put there for evaluation and treatment. Letting her finish college leaves open the possibility that she'll do something even more irrational, possibly hurting herself or someone else.

As for the Duke players, their lives are forever changed but maybe it'll turn out OK now that they've learned how unjust their state and country truly are. I hope they can use what they now know to fight for the principle of innocent until proven guilty. They're in a unique position to understand exactly what it means.

[LisaL]

81. Nobody ever offered her a free tuition to Duke.

[napsi]

116. She won't take advantage of anything except another person in her way.

What makes you think this woman will do anything to better herself or her situation? I'm hoping she sees the inside of a jail cell. Unfortunately she doesn't have any assets to attach so the families can be reimbursed for their legal expenses. Oh, and please don't tell me they could afford it. They shouldn't have had to spend the money in the first place.

[HuffleClaw]

26. and now we can expect a looooong list of apologies from the many who

were suuuuuuuuuure that those horrible guys were guilty?

[Bake]

29. I wouldn't hold my breath!

Either for the apologies from DUers OR for Jesse and Al to make the trip down there.

Come to think of it, didn't Jesse and/or Al inject themselves into the Duke situation? Where are the calls for THEM to be punished?

Bake

[YDogg]

54. They are too busy getting face time over Imus ...

... and his demonstrable actions.

[ronnykmarshall]

51. I'm sure they'd have a spin on this.

But again, no one should hold their breath about that.

[Renew Deal]

133. I'm waiting.

All I ever said was that there were legitimate questions in this case and a few people here went postal.

[IndianaGreen]

32. We told you so!

It was Reade Seligmann that made me realize that, at least in his case, that an innocent man had been accused of a horrible crime.

[superconnected]

33. I wonder if they paid her off.

Having a hundred lawyers on the Lacross players side, sounded a bit much if they were innocent. I mean, "no evidence" should have done the trick.

What I remember was both sides were being caught in "lies" or simply bold "mistatements".

I'm not buying anything in this case at this point.

I think we'll never know.

All we know now is she dropped the charges. That doesn't mean she wasn't rapped or not.

I have no idea on this case. I still can't tell.

[marshall]

34. She didn't drop the charges

She is not in a position to do that. The charges were dropped the the DA's office.

[superconnected]

35. Interesting. I wonder what her story is now.

[marshall]

58. I think she was taken advantage of by Nifong

DA's across the country are no doubt inundated daily with angry, confused, misguided people who make false allegations in the heat of passion or due to some mental disturbance. It is the duty of the DA to get those people help and counseling, not bend them over and ride them into a re-election.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

36. Well, the NC attorney general

mentioned the many inconsistencies by the accuser which fly in contradiction to the evidence and the special prosecutors found no reason to believe the attack even happened.

Let's be honest here and stop believing in conspiracy theories... the DA bungled the case and the accuser made stuff up. It happens often and it's a very sad statement indeed that the only way this matter did not end up more seriously is that the three accused parties are wealthy and can afford lawyers. That is a real outrage.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

38. And, by the way, her name is Crystal Mangum

now that the charges have been dropped, it's only fair her name is public as much as the names of the accused.

[superconnected]

39. This happens all the time?

Want to expand on that?

I would think it happens both ways some of the time.

Right now the case is too convoluted on both sides for me to make a judgement on wether she was raped or not.

[WilmywoodNCparalegal]

40. Ok, let's revisit

I'm listening and watching the press conference. Roy Cooper cited the following: various inconsistent statements by the accuser; inconsistencies within those statements fly in the face of concrete evidence in the form of phone calls, videos, etc.; no DNA evidence; faulty (at best) photo lineup; no witness to corroborate the accuser's story; etc. etc.

[superconnected]

42. I caught all that.

And OJ did not kill anyone.

He's innocent.

Got that.

[TheWraith]

47. Boy, that came out of nowhere, didn't it?

And in any event, what exactly is your qualification to act as judge and jury in this or any other case?

[TheWraith]

45. Then you really need to reexamine your perceptions.

For starters, there aren't and never were a hundred lawyers on the players side. That's completely bogus and I don't know where it came from.

Second, I'm not aware of any lies on the part of the players. Care to offer proof?

Third, the girl doesn't have the power to drop the charges. That's the DA's decision, and after the total collapse of evidence in this case, including the DNA lab admitting that they colluded with the prosecutor to withold potentially exculpatory evidence, it's silly to assume that the only reason the charges could be dropped would be a bribe changing hands. This case would be cut to shreds by any competent defense attorney.

[superconnected]

49. When I worked at the police departments, the victims pressed charges.

I had to ask them if they wanted to press charges. They can get a lawyer and say they drop the charges.

Why are you getting all emotion about me holding an opinion?

Do you usually refuse women to have opinions different than yours?

The OJ case is not in left field. If you believe he is guilty then you are a conspiracy theorist. The law declared him innocent. The law has not declared these boys innocent, it has dropped the charges which implys they are innocent but really means they can not try them.

[appal_jack]

77. wtf!?!

Maybe "superconnected" people can singlehandedly fight off serious (though specious) criminal charges, but most of us find handcuffs, serious potential jail time, and court trials to be VERY intimidating. I know that if some %$#^%$#*&! leveled those kinds of false charges against me, I would bring every lawyer I could affford (alas, it would be a number <<<<100) to the battle.

Your statement that 'I mean, "no evidence" should have done the trick.' seems to imply a rather naive faith that our legal system is truly about justice. I assert that it most definitely is not; it is instead a descendant of the trial by gladiator system., except that battles today are conducted with writs and expert witnesses instead of swords and jousting spears.

Back in medieval times, the guy with the big muscles won, and got to write history thereafter. Now the guy with the high powered lawyers wins, and "truth" is shaped accordingly. Given the apparent looniness of the accuser, plus the craven power-lust of Nifong, I have no reason to doubt the lacrosse players innocence. But I'm not entirely sure that the charges would have been dropped against them if they had failed to lawyer-up at the outset.

-app

[Mike Daniels]

41. I wonder what things would have been like on DU if the races had been reversed

White stripper goes to a party and claims to be raped by a bunch of black athletes.

If a DA had tried to press charges as aggressively as Nifong did with a similar lack of DNA evidence you would have heard cries of "lynch mob" and charges that the old south was back on the rise in Durham.

[SayWhatYo]

46. I disagree...

If she had been white and the rapers had been black, then her story would not have scrutinized as much and the men would be in prison right now. I may be wrong, but I don't think so... Perhaps, the only reason why the charges were dropped were because racist people were going after the victim. Although, I don't really agree with the last part. I'm just saying that it's a possibility.

[Bicoastal]

60. You're forgetting about the wealth factor....

Not only were these athletes white, they were also were much more wealthy than their accuser. And wealth is the great leveller: we've already had one high profile case in the last couple of years where a poor white woman accused a rich black athlete of raping her, and Kobe Bryant's not in jail. In fact, I believe the outcome was quite similar--they were unable to prove the witness had been raped, and if fact her testimony completely fell apart when questioned.

I think people are always inclined to believe that rich and powerful men get away with more than the working-class and female, and sometimes maybe they do--but clearly not in these two cases.

[IndianaGreen]

52. Those of us that are civil libertarians would have raised the same hell we did in Duke case

Nifong would have done the same thing he did, with the same 90 some press conferences he had.

[Mike Daniels]

61. I'm just saying that those who were all too quick to label the white guys guilty

would have never accepted such shabby evidence had the victim been white and the athletes black.

I know that a good portion of DU'ers were rightfully following the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" and I expect those would follow the same principle if the races were reversed.

[SilentService]

106. exactly

Lets see if Sharpton or Jackson show up and appologise to the 3 kids they maligned.

[IndianaGreen]

130. Don't forget that Black Panther guy in Durnham, the son of Malcom X's

He held several rallies against the then-defendants.

Sharpton is still unrepentant about his racist role in the Tawana Brawley case, and Jesse Jackson has said nothing about that scholarship she offered Ms Mangum at the same time he was attacking the defendants.

[Mike Daniels]

157. The Black Panther guy (Shabazz?) was on FOX last night

and as should have been expected, he refused to apologize for any accusations he leveled and he also refused to condemn an implied threat of violence one of his followers made against one of the accused.

[superconnected]

44. Here's the article on Yahoo News

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070411/ap_on_re_us/duke_lacrosse

Pay close attention to who Cooper is.

It means Crystal Mangum never had a lawyer.

Cooper is blatantly going after Nifong, his silence on Mangum is noticble and he's the one handling her case, while going after nifong and fully supporting the guys.

This is what I mean by convoluted.

From my interpretation, the DA Nifong got this case because Mangum was appointed to him since she couldn't afford a lawyer. Cooper took over for Nifong after Nifong got cited on an ethics violation. Cooper is now her legal representation. He just sold her out. Which is why you ALWAYS get a lawyer and don't let the court appoint one. The DA will do whats in his best interest if he's the one taking your case to court. Cooper is now supporting the boys and is going after nifong for representing her by bringing it to court, instead of refusing.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong and Cooper isn't acting in Nifongs place, which is being Mangums legal representation.

[Igel]

62. That's an odd post.

Nifong was the district attorney; he didn't represent the accuser, he represented the state's interest in prosecuting a crime--here "state" means "society" or "the government". He wasn't appointed "her" lawyer, he was responsible for determining, as best he can, the truth (not "her" truth or "their" truth) by interviewing everybody involved and getting evidence collected so as to present a case before a judge and jury to try the accused.

Cooper was the *state* attorney general. He got "her case", even those she was merely a witness in it, because Nifong was under the gun. His role was the same as Nifong's. He didn't represent her; he represented the state.

It's exactly the same in the Libby trial: Fitzgerald wasn't Ms. Plame's lawyer.

[superconnected]

68. So where's her lawyer.

For cooper to call the defense to rest, it means cooper was representing her case, hence her.

[tammywammy]

69. I don't understand your post

Cooper never "rested" the States case, because there wasn't a trial.

The woman didn't have a lawyer, because she didn't hire one. She could have, there wasn't anything holding her back, and I'm sure there were plenty of people that would have helped her out (at least at the beginning). She wasn't entitled to a lawyer because she was a witness, not the accused.

Cooper represents the State of North Carolina, not the woman.

[LisaL]

80. Cooper is representing the state. His job is to represent the state,

not "her." And he doesn't take a "hypocratic oath" WTF that means.

[DEMocracity]

146. Yes ...

You are wrong. WAYYYYYYYYYYYY wrong.

[ronnykmarshall]

48. In a related story ....

Nancy Grace's head just exploded!

[citizen snips]

53. Roy Cooper made the right decision.

Now it is Nifong's turn to be investigated.

[Exiled in America]

56. Please help me out here - really important for a friend of mine:

Could someone - anyone - please either point me to a summary or summarize for me the main points of how this case was so messed up and how so many people assumed this guys were guilty when the evidence just didn't seem to support it?

I remember following this very closely at first, but then I lost track of it.

It would be much appreciated by me!

[mahatmakanejeeves]

57. it's hard to find an impartial site

Just about everyone has a POV. You might have to wait for the book.

Edited: here's a big blog, maybe the most extensive:

Durham-in-Wonderland

He is not without opinion.

[superconnected]

59. It was a whole bunch of news articles posted here on du

if you go for people's complilations that support one side or the other, many things will be omitted. They tend to only keep what supports their side.

The news reports of the guys', and gals story were trouncing each other weekly. Both were being caught in lies.

Nifongs real screw up was supressing evidence by verbally telling someone not to show the results of some test. That one could be the dna test, I don't remember.

What interested me at the beginning was the story of a father moving into a local law firm in Durham and forming a crack team of lawyers for this.

From there I knew that whether the boys had or hadn't it was going to be thrown out of court. Now looking at it and seeing the Gal - Crystal Mangum, never even had a lawyer, it pretty much validates that it never mattered wheter the boys did or didn't. There was no chance of her to win.

So you need to bring up news articles and collect your evidence there. The boy's faked photos, and off times of things happening, the girls story changing and her time being off, all that crap comes from the spaming media machine and I don't believe is fully compiled- all warts on both side, in one spot.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[superconnected]

65. That's what I'm saying. Her lawyer was the prosecuter. In this case the DA was assigned to her.

Cooper became her lawer when Nifong left. She should have hired a "real" lawyer. One she pays to defend her and took the hypocratic oath. When cooper became her "lawyer", and was clearly not on her side, it was over.

I don't know what nifong knew or didn't know so I'll suspend judgement there until that comes out. What little I know, is that nifong wanted to supress evidence. I can't tell if that's him being a decent lawyer to his client, or him just being a dishonest lawyer.

The crack team of defense lawyers had their hands all over this. They kept going to the judge and demanding proof of evidence and admittance of evidence. They _are_ why this got thrown out.

Do you even remember the doctored photos the boys had? This whole case was convoluted with lies, friends lying for them -happened on both sides, time of incidents wrong - happened on both sides, and then the "victim" being flat out mentally unstable and changing her story several times. (severity of the changes unknown because it was the defense lawyers spin). Throw in the lawyers spin - which was non stop, and now it's so convoluted we will never know what happened. Nifong himself may have helped convolute the mess, but I'm not sure where he's to blame other than supressing evidence.

I think most people are mad at Nifong for simply taking the case to court. Not because he wanted to surpress evidence. That came out later and they hated him initially. It's as if, how dare he take 3 young men to court because a woman says she was raped by them. That right there makes me question the people against that. It will come out in court what happened(usually), and it absolutely belonged in court. She should have gotten a lawyer and taken them to court herself. Then she wouldn't have had to deal with the extremely sexist people who think a woman doesn't have the right to persue a trail if she feels she's been raped. They wouldn't have been able to attack the DA for making the decision to let a judge hear it.

[LisaL]

79. Hypocratic oath? You think DAs take those? LOL.

[superconnected]

84. If you read the context,

You'd notice I'm saying she should have gotten a lawyer who would have taken the oath. I did not say the da had. Which is why I brought it up in the first place.

But then, that takes intelligence, to read a sentence...

[tammywammy]

88. Hippocratic Oath

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_oath

That's doctors not lawyers.

[superconnected]

90. ah, thanks for the correction.

I was trying to remember what the name of the oath was where the lawyer refuses the case if he doesn't believe the client is innocent.

[LisaL]

98. Well, neither "hypocratic" nor hippocratic oath is it.

[jberryhill]

119. Having taken an oath as an attorney

There is no such thing as an oath to refuse a case if he OR SHE doesn't believe the client is innocent.

An attorney cannot present evidence or testimony that is known by the attorney to be perjured.

The oath that matters, however, is the oath to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States - which guarantees the right of every person accused of a crime to be represented by an attorney. Even if a criminal defense attorney believes, knows, or suspects that the client is guilty of a crime, it is up to that defense attorney to require the state to prove it to a jury beyond a reasonable doubt based upon the admissible evidence.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[knight_of_the_star]

154. Wow you just demonstrated your ignorance

ALL attorneys have to take an oath to uphold the canons of ethics and the law and act as responsible officers of the court and represent their clients zealously. In the case of a DA his client is the people of the district he's elected in, and Nifong seriously fucked this one up and violated both the law and several canons of ethics in the handling of this case.

[jberryhill]

118. It's not really clear whether you understand how the criminal justice system works

It is not up to the victim of a crime to hire a lawyer to pursue a criminal case against the accused.

Criminal cases are brought and argued by state prosecuting attorneys. She had an entire agency of lawyers whose job it is to prosecute criminals when they have a reasonable basis to believe a crime has been committed by an individual.

Sometimes cases aren't pursued because the chance of securing a conviction seems to remote.

But virtually NEVER does a prosecuting attorney, who has seen the evidence and is familiar with it in a way that nobody here could ever be, make a public statement that the accused party is "innocent". That is the really astounding thing here. This wasn't "the victim is not cooperating". This wasn't "we don't have enough evidence to proceed". This was a prosecutor saying the accused are "innocent".

Not only that, but it was Nifong who dropped the rape charges late last year. The remaining charges were lesser included offenses.

Even a jury verdict of "not guilty" in a criminal case merely says that the case wasn't proven beyond a reasonable doubt.

Now, in a civil trial, where the standard is by a "preponderance of the evidence" OJ was found liable for the death of Nicole Brown Simpson.

[DEMocracity]

147. I am thinking that superconnected must be joking...

because NO ONE could honestly be that ignorant and confused about the criminal justice system.

[torrentprime]

64. "Faked Photos" ?

Wha are you referring to?

And you didn't mention in your litany of "mistakes were made" that the lab and Nifong colluded to hide evidence and lied to the media in an interview, by raising a possibility of behavior that the accuser's own testimony excluded (that's why he is being investigated for ethics charges). To pretend that the only problems with this case were "her story changing" and her "time being off" is leaving out the real injustice of the story.

(On edit, changed "provide" to "hide." Typo.)

[superconnected]

66. If you don't know the faked photos, then you don't know the case.

The time was questioned to be photoshopped in, on photos one boy took at the party.

[tammywammy]

71. I thought that I kept up with this case pretty well

I don't know what "faked photos" you're referring to. Do you have a link?

[superconnected]

74. If you missed the week on the photos, you didn't follow it well.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12521096

[torrentprime]

92. Lizzy, don't worry

There were no "faked photos." There were photos introduced by the defense. Some people pointed out they could have been doctored, but there isn't a shred of proof or indication that they were; just Nifong pointing out that, you know, like, time stamps COULD be faked and stuff. For superconnected, that apparently is enough to report to us as "faked" photos (from what I've been googling, some of the photos show people's wristwatches in them with times that match the timestamp; I assume superconected will tell us next that those were faked too). So the desire, the NEED, for these guys to be guilty expands to DU as well, it seems.

[superconnected]

94. Wrong.

I brought up faked photos because that was part of the spin on this.

It is still part of the spin. That's historical. It happened when the press was going back and fourth on this.

The photos were neither proved or disproved as fakes.

It is you taking them for being "proved", not I prouncing that I know they are "fake." I do not know. And the context was not me claiming I knew.

When I said, do you rember the faked photos, I was talking about the spin of faked photos.

They may be fake or not. Who knows.

[Malidictus Maximus]

153. They may be fake or not. Who knows.

Wrong.
It's up to YOU (or Nifong, or whoever) to *PROVE* that they were faked. Claims demand proof.

[LisaL]

95. I know.

LOL.

[LisaL]

78. LOL.

Time was questioned to be photo shopped in? Questioned? You think it proves something?

[superconnected]

82. no. And I did not say it proves anything.

The photos might be fine.

The photos are just part of the spin on this.

The entire case has not proved anything. Dropping the charges doesn't prove anything.

All we know is that county doesn't feel it has enough evidence to prosecute. One DA believed they did, the Attorney Gen believes they don't.

I would have thought the woman would have recannted, or a judge/jury would have made a ruling, before people start pronoucing people innocent and guilty.

As it stands, I will never know. Too much spin, and it never hit a jury.

[LisaL]

86. The charges were dropped because defendants were innocent

of the charges. That is on their dismissal orders. I don't think it gets any clearer than this.

[superconnected]

89. And if that makes it totally clear to you that the defendants are

actually innocent, then you must have been very relieved to learn OJ didn't kill Nicole.

Some of the rest of us will have to sit with never actually knowing.

Deal with it. I have a differnet opinion than yours. Try hard and you'll figure out other people can differ from you and it's okay. For you guilt/innocence is proved. For me, the case was tossed out.

Nothing more to add. Closed case.

[LisaL]

97. Did DA ever said OJ was innocent of the charges?

I don't think so. Nothing more to add.
:eyes:

[superconnected]

100. no, the jury voted him not guilty.

[tammywammy]

99. The Attorney General said they were innocent

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/lacrosse/sns-ap-duke-lacrosse-statement,0,183394.story?coll=bal-college-lacrosse

"We believe that these cases were the result of a tragic rush to accuse and a failure to verify serious allegations. Based on the significant inconsistencies between the evidence and the various accounts given by the accusing witness, we believe these three individuals are innocent of these charges."

Note, he didn't say not guilty (as I've always heard prosecutors say) he said innocent.

OJ was found "not guilty." And comparing the Duke Lacross case to OJ is laughable.

[superconnected]

101. Yeah, I caught that the first time I read it.

It's enough for you. Great.

It's not enough for me. Deal with it.

[tammywammy]

103. I think that complied with

the fact that the woman's story changed multiple times. There was no DNA evidence. The other dancer said nothing happened. The cab driver refuted the timeline. The ATM showed at least one guy there and not raping her. The fact that the photoline up was only lacross player, thus, entirely inadmissable.

So what exactly is leading you to believe that they're guilty?

[superconnected]

105. Exactly. You nailed it.

I never said they were guilty.

That's my problem with dealing with you. I keep sticking to the facts and you are in emotionalville.

I said over and over, I will never know if they are guilty or not.

Gee. Thanks for qualifying that. You might want to drop the word "facts", when it's "emotional belief" you really mean.

There's too much spin to know anything for me to judge the case. You however, can "emotionally-believe" anything you want.

I will not discuss things further with you because you just failed integrity.

Goodbye.

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[torrentprime]

87. So it moved from "faked photos"

...to "questioned to be photoshopped in." So was there anything other than a accusation? Do you have the slightest bit of proof that these were photoshopped? Or is this just one more way people tried to disprove exculpatory evidence in order to fit their preconception?

I also notice you didn't address the whole "DA conspired to hide evidence," which weighs a tad more than unproven accusations of timestamp manipulation.

[superconnected]

91. about the da conspiring. I don't need to address anything with that.

I haven't seen his charges on it. I've only heard it as part of the spin. I'm not here to "address" any of the charges.

I don't know if the photos are real or not. They may be fake, they may be real. You and I both do not actually *know*.

I do know that I have repeatedly not undertaken proving or disproving anything. I've only reported what the spins have been and said it's convoluted.

You and I both cannot "prove" anything on this case, no matter how strongly you _feel_ you know.

Gee, it would be nice if some people took reading comprehension.

[torrentprime]

93. You said

The boy's faked photos, and off times of things happening, the girls story changing and her time being off, all that crap comes from the spaming media machine and I don't believe is fully compiled- all warts on both side, in one spot.

You conveyed to us that the photos were faked. Someone said they could have been doctored, but to convey them as fake is an unproven allegation presented as truth.

You're right; we cannot prove their guilt, which in this country means they are supposed to go free. I do feel very vehemently about that, yes.

[superconnected]

96. Excuse me?

I wrote on this in an above post. I said remember the faked photos - refering to the spin on fake photos, which there was.

I did not declare the photos fake. I don't know one way or the other.

My context was not to declare the photos as fakes, but to bring up how convoluted the spins were.

And again, they may or may not be. We do not know. Saying, remember the "non-faked" photos would have been just as wrong, in the context you are apply my sentence to. That's not the context my sentence was spoken in.

[lumberjack_jeff]

126. The only place that the photos date stamps were questioned was here. n/t

[jberryhill]

120. The ones in the evidence drawer next to the Seligmans fake mustache

The most astounding reasoning I have ever seen - She said the attacker had a mustache. None of the players had a mustache. Therefore, since they were wearing fake mustaches they MUST be guilty.

Priceless.

[IndianaGreen]

67. I think it was the ATM video of Seligmann using the machine, and the cabbie's statement

that began to cast doubt on the accuser's version of events, at least as far as Reade Seligmann goes.

[Pavulon]

70. This case played on all the ignorant preconceived

notions assholes have about the south. It was a trifecta of ignorant assumptions. racism, sports teams, greed.

As I said all along, this case was total horse shit.

Tawana Brawley and her mouth pieces set back true victims of all races.

Each loud mouth moron owes an apology.

Nifong will be disbarred and lose his shirt in civil court. Durham county is probably checking on who has to pay for the settlement they are going to make.

[DuaneBidoux]

72. I will always remember the vitriol that spewed from DU against these guys.

It was incredible. Poster after poster piled on about their wealth, their privledge, how they thought they could get away with anything--about the unfortunate rape victim who was poor and black.

I was shocked at the literal hate spewing forth here and saw many things that reminded me of right wing wackos but with simply a different target.

There may be issues of behavior that wasn't appropriate but these guys, including the coach who lost his job, went through hell.

I pride myself on being progressive because I feel it is a fairer, more tolerant, rational philosophy than many alternatives. There is a lot of prejudice at DU--just against a different set of targets than conservatives.

For those who did pile on perhaps some time of self reflection could be beneficial.

[superconnected]

73. I feel the same about what they spewed about the woman.

She was getting called whore and all kind of names.

[DuaneBidoux]

122. I was not as sensitive to that--but that is equally wrong

The dignified thing to do for all parties involved is to hold the opinions until more facts have been exposed.

[lumberjack_jeff]

127. Now that it is apparent that she tried to ruin the lacrosse players lives...

...being called names should be the least of her worries.

She has singlehandedly undermined the credibility of legitimate rape victims. Those who were calling for the lacrosse players heads should be the most vocal at seeking justice against the dancer because it is their cause that is most harmed.

[Psephos]

131. Some of those names turned out to be true, didn't they?

Liar, for one.

She had the semen of three men inside her when she made her accusations, but none of it was from the accused.

I read her rap sheet. Her life is a nightmare. I see nothing good coming out of punishment for her; she needs treatment. I feel sorry for her and others like her whose lives revolve around substance abuse, work in a sex industry, and what looks to my uneducated eyes like PTSD-related behaviors.

I also feel sorry for future, legitimate victims of rape and sexual assault, whose pursuit of justice will be harder because of what Crystal Mangum did. Meanwhile, the lives of those future rapists and assaulters just got a little easier.

She's left a lot of human wreckage in her wake. I wonder if she realizes what she did.

[NashVegas]

151. "Lying Whore"

To be exact.

[appal_jack]

85. word...

You hit the nail on the head Duane.

-app

[ohio2007]

102. I think a few links to those threads should be revisited and looked over but

that won't likely be happening for the most rabid of the mob rulers who wanted the "La Crosse" 'playaz' thrown in jail and given a real education in the liberal art of rape.

Anybody care to post a few shocking links ( if possible ? )

[pnwmom]

115. I agree. They should also remind themselves

why the presumption of innocence is so important.

That's what didn't happen in this case -- all too many people in the media and in the general public presumed these students guilty, and that's part of the reason Nifong was able to go on for so long.

[DuaneBidoux]

123. It reminds me of a Star Trek episode I saw called (I think) drumbeat

or something to that effect. It was about the effect as a kind of mob mentality begins to take over. It is a dangerous human tendency and one that I think can rear its ugly head in any animal of the human persuasion.

[Psephos]

144. Read Eric Hoffer's "The True Believer" for the definitive description

It's a short and devastatingly accurate portrait of fanaticism.

http://www.amazon.com/True-Believer-Thoughts-Movements-Perennial/dp/0060505915/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-2720660-8775239?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176399165&sr=8-1

Peace.

[pnwmom]

108. A.G.'s Statement Dropping Duke Rape Case

Source: Baltimore Sun

We have carefully reviewed the evidence collected by the Durham County prosecutor's office and the Durham Police Department. We have also conducted our own interviews and evidence gathering. Our attorneys and SBI (State Bureau of Investigation) agents have interviewed numerous people who were at the party, DNA and other experts, the Durham County district attorney, Durham police officers, defense attorneys and the accusing witness on several occasions. We have reviewed statements given over the past year, photographs, records and other evidence.

SNIP

We believe that these cases were the result of a tragic rush to accuse and a failure to verify serious allegations. Based on the significant inconsistencies between the evidence and the various accounts given by the accusing witness, we believe these three individuals are innocent of these charges.

SNIP

The eyewitness identification procedures were faulty and unreliable. No DNA confirms the accuser's story. No other witness confirms her story. Other evidence contradicts her story. She contradicts herself. Next week, we'll be providing a written summary of the important factual findings and some of the specific contradictions that have led us to the conclusion that no attack occurred.

In this case, with the weight of the state behind him, the Durham district attorney pushed forward unchecked. There were many points in the case where caution would have served justice better than bravado. And in the rush to condemn, a community and a state lost the ability to see clearly. Regardless of the reasons this case was pushed forward, the result was wrong. Today, we need to learn from this and keep it from happening again to anybody.

SNIP

Read more: www.baltimoresun.com/sports/college/lacrosse/sns-ap-duke-lacrosse-statement,0,183394.story?coll=bal-college-lacrosse

[Thrill]

109. This will help Roy Cooper against Dole

If Easley doesn't run. Roy will

[pnwmom]

110. If the Democrats have been backing Nifong on this, that's their problem.

He's a disgrace to the party.

[ObamaNationYes]

136. Maybe it will and maybe it wont....

When Cooper said that Nifong was left "unchecked" - he was right, but Nifong was unchecked by both Cooper and Easley. He comes under the AG's office and the Gov. Easley appointed Nifong and took a long time saying anything against him. While I applaud Cooper, he took way too long getting in on the action.

I want someone untainted by this to run against Dole. Whoever it is must have NO BAGGAGE because it is going to be tough for Dems in NC. Before anyone questions my party loyalty do some quick research on recent goings on in NC - the Dems have been disgraced by Nifong and Jim Black. Helms has been gone long enough for many to forget his racism and bigotry. We have Democratic scandals and they are fresh!

[tammywammy]

111. I don't think I've ever heard a prosecutor say "Innocent"

I'll be interested to see the report he's going to release that details the evidence.

[jberryhill]

117. It is pretty amazing

Even if the prosecutor's office bungles a case, they tend to stick with "it was botched and can't be proven". To actually say that someone is "innocent" has got to be extremely rare.

[Occulus]

112. Hah. Where are all the "I think they got away with something" posts?

Oh, yeah. It's kinda hard to say that in the face of this statement.

Is it just me, or has there been a recent, sudden incursion of deliberately obtuse, obnoxious shitheads here in the past few weeks?

[tammywammy]

113. It's not just you

I've noticed it as well in various subjects.

[Bake]

121. UPDATE: Jesse Jackson refuses to apologize.

On Anderson Cooper -- JJ refuses to apologize for his part in promoting this pile of sh*t. I don't have a link, just heard it on the tube.

Big shocker there.

Bake

[ProudDad]

135. Let's see, affluent white boy jocks hire black "stripper" for off-campus party

"The case stirred furious debate over race, class and the privileged status of college athletes, and heightened long-standing tensions in Durham between its large working-class black population and the mostly white, mostly affluent students at the private, elite university.

The woman is black and attended nearby North Carolina Central University, a historically black school; all three Duke players are white." http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070411/ap_on_re_us/duke_lacrosse

Uh, why? Why do these boys need to hire a stripper to "have fun"? Sounds like a setup to me no matter how it turns out. Entitled behavior meets the working class?

There's more to this story than we'll ever learn.

-----------------------------

I heard the Editor of the Duke school paper on radio this afternoon. His intelligence and the obvious reflection over race and class that he and the students and faculty of that school have engaged in since this incident are laudable. I suspect they're learning a hell of a lot more than those lapping up the crap fed to them by the MSM are.

This should be an opportunity to reflect on race and class, just as the Imus incident is. I doubt many will.

This is still a racist country involved in a vicious class war. That's a backdrop that has to effect nearly everything that goes on here.

[ObamaNationYes]

137. I do not recall that they specifically requested to hire a black stripper.

Don't know. I will need to check this out.

[ohio2007]

141. I recall two of the "jocks" had to put up $400,000 bond to stay out of jail

So, their parents are only out 10% of that $400k,
right ?

lol
the cost of higher education I guess

[hoboken123]

143. Why do these boys need to hire a stripper to "have fun"?

Are you asking why young men might hire a stripper to have fun?

On planet Earth, this happens all the time.

[napsi]

152. Yep, affluent white kids are the DEVIL!!!!!!!!

Lets throw em in jail for hiring a stripper at a frat party! Good call.