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deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 09:28 PM
Original message
Envoy attacks female circumcision in Kenya
Source: Reuters

KILGORIS, Kenya (Reuters) - The U.S. ambassador to Kenya attacked the practice of female circumcision on Saturday, saying local communities must denounce it.

Female genital mutilation (FGM) is widespread in the east African nation, where the government estimates about a third of women has suffered the procedure.

Among some communities, like the Kisii and Masaai, almost all girls are cut. Proponents say it reduces sexual desire and keeps women faithful.

"FGM kills girls due to bleeding and infections," U.S. envoy Michael Ranneberger told several hundred residents of Kilgoris, a town in hilly, rural west Kenya where the practice is rife.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070421/pl_nm/kenya_circumcision_dc
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Oy.
I'm sure he feels filled with righteous virtue, preaching to these backward souls. The arrogance is simply breathtaking. Did he go to Regent University?
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 11:54 PM
Response to Reply #1
9. It's dangerous, violates the girls' human rights, etc
Some women die from the infections and have horrible physical problems their whole lives because of it. I think it's great the envoy said this.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #9
28. Really.
So genital mutilation will now stop because an American man told the Kenyan men it's bad? Because they know Americans are so much smarter and wiser than they are? Because he's lived among them and earned their respect and they trust what he has to say?

Yeah, that's the ticket.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 03:21 PM
Response to Reply #28
33. Who said it would stop because an envoy made his views known?
Edited on Sun Apr-22-07 03:22 PM by barb162
But maybe if enough people make their views known and speak out against this vile, sick custom , it will stop.
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Critters2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. I'll bet I know, without looking at your profile, what gender you are.
Edited on Sat Apr-21-07 11:58 PM by mycritters2
Took a peek. "Undeclared". Yeah, right.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 12:54 AM
Response to Reply #12
14. I have no idea what that means. Do you?
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ProudToBeLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 01:05 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. let me guess you're a guy nt
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
19. I think the truly arrogant people are the ones who decide that women
will be better off if their genitals are cut in order to reduce their interest in sex.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #19
26. You really think a lecture from a self-important American
will be persuasive rather than offensive? Is this different from walking into Iraq and telling them we're going to show them what kind of government they should have?

Will they suddenly see the light and stop doing what they've been doing for thousands of years because this ass gave them a good talking to? Or will they close their minds to anything an American has to say?

I'm only surprised that he didn't say the best way to stop genital mutilation was to convert to Christianity.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #26
30. Listen to the girls then.
Victims of the practice gave heart-rending accounts.

"The other women threatened me if I did not do this. We must stop this. Young girls are living in fear," a Maasai girl in her early teens said, her voice cracking with emotion.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #26
69. There are plenty of Kenyans opposed to it, too
They wouldn't protest the back up from an American ambassador (and other ambassadors)
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #19
27. And this jackass helped them HOW?
He said something you agree with. Goody. HOW DID IT HELP?

Let me know when he uses the embassy to sanctuary women running from the operation. Let me know how many women he saved from this fate.

All he did was make sure that the men who run the country will not listen to him about anything.

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otherlander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #27
43. And anti-war protests help HOW?
You march with a sign and say something you think. GOODY. How did it help?

How many people have you actually saved?
:sarcasm:
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
47. he gave them a forum to get the message into the media and good for him
Edited on Sun Apr-22-07 09:35 PM by pitohui
it would be cheap and easy for him to say, "i don't wanna offend the masai" (very powerful
people w.in kenya), instead, he helped give these girls and women a way to get their rally into the news media and to get their views out worldwide that this crap is still going on

25 percent of pop. between 15 and 45 in kenya are infected w. hiv (or so i was told when i visited), and female circumcision may actually increase the woman's susceptibility to acquiring the infection

it is a tragedy for the women and for this nation that this crap still goes on

the man could have just turned his head and said nothing, as most foreign visitors do, putting it down as an internal manner, good for him that he found a positive way to speak out and help the women put their message out

if it was just some know it all dude running his mouth, i'd see your point, but it is made clear in the article that girls and women spoke, for instance, a teen girl's testimony is quoted, he is not trying to "own" the issue or to tell kenya how to run their own country but rather supporting these kenyan women in making a change for the better of the entire nation

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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 12:57 AM
Response to Reply #1
52. welcome to my ignore list n/t
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 04:43 AM
Response to Reply #1
63. The ambassador should be screaming it from the rooftops
Arrogance has nothing to do with this. It's a barbaric practice that needs the world to see it and condem it. It is a backwards practice and I see nothing wrong with shining a light on it.
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #1
94. I'm guessing that you don't have a clitoris
This is mutilation. It is a human rights issue not a Westerner judging a foreign culture. :grr:
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 09:43 PM
Response to Original message
2. This is something that through continuous education something positive
can come about. Glad to see it being pushed.



......Victims of the practice gave heart-rending accounts.

"The other women threatened me if I did not do this. We must stop this. Young girls are living in fear," a Maasai girl in her early teens said, her voice cracking with emotion.

Ranneberger said he realized female circumcision was a culturally sensitive topic in parts of the country. "But it is one about which we nonetheless need to speak out," he said.

Kenyan girls, particularly in rural societies, are cut at the age of 10 or younger, to prepare them for marriage at around 14. "This is not an upward path to a brighter Kenya, but rather works counter to efforts to combat poverty and despair," Ranneberger said.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
3. I hope I live to see the end of this practice in my lifetime.

Its barbaric.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #3
10. Yes, it is barbaric, useless, disgusting, etc
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 01:01 AM
Response to Reply #3
54. This IS barbaric.
But I don't much care for automatic circumscision of male babies in western society either.

I'm cut, and I really rather wish I had had the chance to decide if I wanted foreskin or not.

That in no way diminishes my utter revulsion and disgust toward forced female circumscision. If done both willingly and hygenically, to each her own, but this... ugh....
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paganlib Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 10:07 PM
Response to Original message
4. Female genital mutilation...
is a horrible thing to do to a young woman/girl. I was absolutely soul shocked when I first heard about it.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
5. Apparently many in the world have no trouble with male baby genital mutilation.
As long as it it done with the best of intentions, it must be ok, right? Let's stop mutilating the genitals of all babies and children.
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 11:30 PM
Response to Reply #5
6. I will be perfectly happy if you and yours are uncircumcized.
Leave mine out of your attitudes.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 08:58 AM
Response to Reply #6
22. Mutilation is mutilation no matter what your attitude may be. n/t
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #22
53. I put that poster on ignore after I read his first post on the thread
My ignore list grows daily, sometimes by leaps and bounds.

We at DU have become infected by some real shitfuckers of late. Thank the admins we have that ignore feature.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 08:04 AM
Response to Reply #53
65. You are absolutely right. Life is too short.
My ignore list grows longer, but it is still insignificant in comparison with the over 100,000 registered users here. It is surprising how infrequently that I see "ignored" on a thread I am posting to. Too many users here at DU seem to be constantly pissed and angry about something, so I don't see why I should join their company and get all bent out of shape at every opportunity. I just hit "Ignore".
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cigsandcoffee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. Male Circumcision is a powerful tool for AIDS prevention
http://www.nih.gov/news/pr/dec2006/niaid-13.htm

Adult Male Circumcision Significantly Reduces Risk of Acquiring HIV
Trials in Kenya and Uganda Stopped Early

The National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases (NIAID), part of the National Institutes of Health (NIH), announced an early end to two clinical trials of adult male circumcision because an interim review of trial data revealed that medically performed circumcision significantly reduces a man's risk of acquiring HIV through heterosexual intercourse. The trial in Kisumu, Kenya, of 2,784 HIV-negative men showed a 53 percent reduction of HIV acquisition in circumcised men relative to uncircumcised men, while a trial of 4,996 HIV-negative men in Rakai, Uganda, showed that HIV acquisition was reduced by 48 percent in circumcised men.

"These findings are of great interest to public health policy makers who are developing and implementing comprehensive HIV prevention programs,"says NIH Director Elias A. Zerhouni, M.D. "Male circumcision performed safely in a medical environment complements other HIV prevention strategies and could lessen the burden of HIV/AIDS, especially in countries in sub-Saharan Africa where, according to the 2006 estimates from UNAIDS, 2.8 million new infections occurred in a single year."

"Many studies have suggested that male circumcision plays a role in protecting against HIV acquisition," notes NIAID Director Anthony S. Fauci, M.D. "We now have confirmation — from large, carefully controlled, randomized clinical trials — showing definitively that medically performed circumcision can significantly lower the risk of adult males contracting HIV through heterosexual intercourse. While the initial benefit will be fewer HIV infections in men, ultimately adult male circumcision could lead to fewer infections in women in those areas of the world where HIV is spread primarily through heterosexual intercourse."

The findings from the African studies may have less impact on the epidemic in the United States for several reasons. In the United States, most men have been circumcised. Also, there is a lower prevalence of HIV. Moreover, most infections among men in the United States are in men who have sex with men, for whom the amount of benefit provided by circumcision is unknown. Nonetheless, the overall findings of the African studies are likely to be broadly relevant regardless of geographic location: a man at sexual risk who is uncircumcised is more likely than a man who is circumcised to become infected with HIV. Still, circumcision is only part of a broader HIV prevention strategy that includes limiting the number of sexual partners and using condoms during intercourse.

(more at link)
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #7
23. Right, circumcised, but still use condoms.
This is specific to Africa and their sexual attitudes. Over 80% of the world's males are not circumcised. You don't perform an unneeded operation on a baby boy or young male because someday he may engage in a risky medical behavior. Circumcision of males should be for specific medical reasons or for religious reasons.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 02:18 AM
Response to Reply #23
60. Hey, I'd rather have them cutting off their foreskin than raping virgins...
...they do dig those remedies as 'cures' you know. It'd be nice if they had one that actually worked.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #7
77. Still the claims and no data...
When are people going to learn?

I have no doubt it may delay the initial contraction of the HIV... But, it's no long term solution
or cure.

The money spent to do this procedure would be better spent elsewhere.
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JohnLocke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. ...
:eyes:
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uppityperson Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #8
13. !
:toast::eyes:
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 09:04 AM
Response to Reply #13
24. ?
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-21-07 11:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. They don't take sexual sensation away from little baby boys
now, do they?
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #11
16. Dontcha love the way they equate the two?
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 03:25 PM
Response to Reply #16
34. NO!
Although I don't like the idea of either of them, FGM is light years different
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LeftyMom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 02:06 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Yes, that's what circumcision does.
Edited on Sun Apr-22-07 02:07 AM by LeftyMom
The most densely ennervated tissue in the human body is either removed (the prepuce) or destroyed (the frenulum.) The glans loses sensitivity as a result of keratinization, and the gliding action which preserves lubrication during coitus is eliminated, increasing the likelihood of discomfort for one's partner during sex.
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elocs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 09:08 AM
Response to Reply #11
25. But they do for big boys who did not have a choice in the matter.
Neither males nor females should not be circumcised.
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aikoaiko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #5
15. male circumcision needs to be examined too, but FGM needs to stop now.


Plus the new reports on HIV transmission may prove it to be medically useful.
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pnwmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 05:23 AM
Response to Reply #5
20. No comparison between the risks and benefits.
There are no benefits to the female procedure, and it is done to reduce the chance that a woman will WANT to have sex. And it's often accompanied by a procedure that literally stitches her genitalia together leaving only a tiny hole for the passage of fluids.

Whereas male circumcision has been shown, even among men who use condoms, to result in a large decrease in the risk of HIV transmission. And it isn't performed in order to eliminate men's sex drive.
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 05:41 PM
Response to Reply #5
41. I wondered how long it would be before some guy brought up
this appels and oranges comparison.

It never fails.

Someone posts an article about female genital mutilation, which in its very mildest form is equivalent to chopping off the head of the penis, or more often the whole penis or the penis and the skin of the scrotum, and somebody comes on whining about male circumcision, which does NOT prevent the male from enjoying sex.

Give it up already.
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Coventina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-25-07 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #41
97. Yeah, it almost begins to seem like an intentional distraction
But but but...what about the BOYS?!?!?!

I'm against male circumcision, but it really IS apples and oranges.

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subterranean Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-28-07 04:31 PM
Response to Reply #41
100. You're right, it never fails. Like night follows day.
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 04:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
64. There really is no comparison between the two
For the females it's strictly to deny them any sexual feelings and I doubt the men in these societies are being circumsized.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 10:40 AM
Response to Reply #5
82. Male circumcision is NOTHING like female genital mutilation
I knew this "argument" would come up in this thread -- it always does.

Now, if a teenage boy had his dick and testicles cut off, then you can say that.
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Marnieworld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 03:26 PM
Response to Reply #5
95. this is the equivalent of complete castration
not a circumcision. The women get there vaginas sewn repeatedly. It's misogynistic barbarism. Many in medicine find a health benefit to removing part of the foreskin. There is no benefit to this practice other than the perceived control of women.

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Mend Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
21. females are economically dependent upon men and they will not
marry an uncircumcised woman. If a woman's famiily refuses to mutilate her, she is a life-long economic burden. It is an inhumane revolting dangerous practice similar to binding the feet in China. The Communists stopped this barbaric process and the men got used to women who could actually walk. If you want to throw up, google foot binding as well as genital mutilation.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #21
29. much more accurate comparison.
the only similarity between male circumcision and female circumcision it the name. which is why most activists refuse to use the term. the two are not comparable in any way.
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FryLock3000 Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Of course they're not comparable
Edited on Sun Apr-22-07 02:32 PM by FryLock3000
One is slicing away at a girl's genitals, and another is slicing away at a boy's genitals. Completely different. (sarcasm)

Did you enjoy it when they strapped you down and sliced away at yours?


I just don't see how people can condemn female circumcision and yet defend male circumcision. They're both barbaric. Varying degrees of barbaric, but barbaric nonetheless. No child should have their genitals touched unless medically necessary.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 03:02 PM
Response to Reply #31
32. first of all, i am female. second of all my 2 sons are intact.
but there is no comparison, and it diminishes the barbarity of what is done to these girls to compare them. no boy is going to die as a result of circumcision later in life. many women will die in childbirth, and be subjected to painful sex all her life. or have a fistula from prolonged labor that will leave her a smelly, urine leaking outcast.
there is a minor correlation between the 2. there is NO moral equivalence at all.
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FryLock3000 Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 04:24 PM
Response to Reply #32
36. There IS a moral equivalence
They're both unnecessary mutilation. (mutilate - to injure, disfigure, or make imperfect by REMOVING OR IRREPAIRABLY DAMAGING PARTS) It doesn't grow back.

Albeit, there is no doubt that FGM is MUCH more drastic. I just don't understand why people get all defensive when someone brings up MGM in the same sentence with FGM. They're both WRONG. It is illegal in America to alter a baby girl's genitals. It is not illegal to alter a boy's. And in some cases, boys lose the entire penis because of a botched procedure. He's sure not gonna spread HIV now, is he??

I just feel a little hypocritical telling another country that FGM is bad, when half of our boys are cut when they're a day old. It's typical American mentality.

Glad to hear you're 2 sons are intact. And I'm not disagreeing with you about FGM. I just think we need to worry about our own human rights voilations before we worry about others.
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. Okay.
I just don't understand why people get all defensive when someone brings up MGM in the same sentence with FGM.

Because, as with damn near every gender-related issue, many people bring up the male "side" as it were to belittle or silence women and our issues. It's a strawman tactic used again and again, no matter what the women's rights issue. Rape, domestic violence, the right to choose, you name it. All too often it's used as a diversionary tactic to shut us up. Feminists are just a wee bit tired of it, too.

Your concerns about male circumcision may well be valid. The point is, this is not about male circumcision. This is a women's health and rights issue that is not paid nearly as much attention as it needs to be. The two practices are not equivalent, no matter how much "men's rights" (read: people who don't want to be challenged on their misogyny) scream otherwise. Male circumcision may well be awful and harmful (and the debate is still raging about that), but as far as I'm aware it is not a practice perpetrated with the intent of dehumanizing men, devaluing their pleasure, etc. FGM is nothing less than a hate crime perpetuated against the most defenseless of women, born of twisted patriarchal bullshit.

And yes, I'm a feminazi. I wear the label with pride.
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WindRavenX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. omg, you rock
:yourock:
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. ...!
:hug:
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #37
42. Yup, you've got the big picture
Whenever a women's issue comes up, there's always some man (or more than one) who tries to minimize it by bringing up rarer or less severe things that happen to men.

When will they learn that not everything is about them?
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 08:49 PM
Response to Reply #42
46. I just can't take it
It's like they're little five year olds that can't stand it when Mommy isn't paying attention to them.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 08:15 AM
Response to Reply #46
72. Dontch know
that women beat men, too. And men get raped too! What about the mens!!!!!
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FryLock3000 Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #42
51. Ok, you have a point. I'll try to stay on topic
I just don't think denouncing the practice will help. These men clearly don't value women or women's health, and an American telling them they're wrong isn't gonna change anybody's mind.

The average American would never think of doing this to a young girl, but the average Kenyan probably just views it as normal. The change has to come from within.

I believe empowering Kenyan women to fight for their rights is the only answer. The same way that American women fought for theirs.

I'm just afraid denouncing the practice may hurt Kenyan women in their struggle more than it helps.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #42
61. The worst part here is the EQUATING of the two very different practices...
...it's not that the rhetoric is talking about helping little boys, it's about saying "This is just as bad." Which is a lie. Which is sick. Women get genital modification all the time, clitoral hood shrinking, labia shrinking (to make it look more appealing and whatnot), others get clitoral piercings. NONE get full clitoral removal. NONE. It is a barbaric practice, and no where near as bad as male circumcision where foreskin is removed.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #42
84. And, I don't see penises and testicles being chopped off, just the foreskin
A woman's penis and testicles ARE cut off. That's what's happening.
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FryLock3000 Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 12:22 AM
Response to Reply #37
49. Why did you put quotes on male "side" and "men's rights"?
Are you implying they have no merit? Or aren't valid? I find it funny you imply I'm guilty of misogyny in the midst of your misandrist (look it up) post.

Maybe I should start a new thread in the "Men's rights" or "Men's Issues" forum. Oh, wait.......

So my choices are:

A - Denounce FGM as unacceptable and apologize for my role in the barbaric practice (see being male, patriarchy)

B - Denounce both FGM as unacceptable and Male circumcision as unacceptable and be labeled a "misogynist"

C - Realize that when speaking to "feminazis" (to quote you) like you, nothing I say will be acceptable because I'm a man and disagreeing with a woman must mean I hate all women and take pleasure in their mutilation.

Guess I'm fucked either way!

But honestly, do you really think I'm trying to diminish or take away from the fight against FGM? I just don't see how my fight against MGM hurts the fight against FGM. On the contrary, you seem to be the one trying to diminish the argument against MGM.

Again, I'll say it again. They're both wrong. I don't want ANY child to be harmed. This strawman bullshit is, well, bullshit.


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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 02:14 AM
Response to Reply #49
59. FGM is not the same as male circumcision. The closest analoug...
...would be clitoral hood removal, which is still quite painful (as any circumcision is for any child) but doesn't render the female completely unable to feel anything. FGM, however, is the complete removal of the clitoris. This is akin to removing the glans penis, which would effectively render a male impotent. BTW, clitoral hood removal is rarely practiced, the vast majority of female circumcision is complete and utter mutiliation.

Comparing the two, contrasting the two, even bringing them into the same arena is just sad rhetoric.

I am against male circumcision, however, I do not consider it ANYWHERE near as bad as FGM. FGM is a practice that simply cannot be justified in any way, whereas there are medical and scientific benefits to male circumcision, and it doesn't render the male organ completely disfunctional.
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #59
73. look it up
Edited on Tue Apr-24-07 08:17 AM by gaspee
Give me a fucking break. Dontcha know that more women are misandrists than men are mysoginists? Men *lurve* women!

Edited to add -- I don't really need the sarcasm tag, do I?
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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 08:34 PM
Response to Reply #49
70. Context is everything.
I put quotes around "men's rights" because the way a patriarchal society works, there's no need for a "men's rights" movements, because men's rights are inherently respected in the system. Men have all the power in a patriarchal system; the deck is inherently stacked in men's favor. If you don't understand what I'm saying, let me bring it into a racial context. If, in every thread about racial discrimination against black folk, someone came in hollering about "white rights"...yeah.

Whether you realize it or not (and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt because you seem sincere despite your ignorance), this discussion isn't happening in a vacuum. In the last couple of years on DU, every time a subject related to discrimination against women comes up, someone comes in the thread and derails it crying about men. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. Without fail. It doesn't matter what the topic is. Rape threads are trolled by people crying about victims of false accusations (never about male rape survivors, which I think is telling). Choice threads degenerate into men flinging poo about this or that woman that done them wrong with regards to a pregnancy. Domestic violence threads turn into story time where this or that man was wrongfully arrested due to a lying spouse or girlfriend.

This is where myself and other DU feminists are coming from when we call people on this. There is a systematic effort to silence women. It's not just on DU either, it happens on Daily Kos, and damn near any board or blog where more than two liberals gather for discussion.

Anyway, the very act of trying to equate FGM and male circumcision is misogyny, period. The two practices have in common the fact that they involve genitalia and that's about it. Please do some research.
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Amused Musings Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 01:46 AM
Response to Reply #37
57. i agree with your sentiment
I am a bit more surprised at the shrillness of those comparing what is happening to these women to male circumcision and I thought this too when people were up in arms about circumcision lowering the risk of aids.

Look, I hesitated to say this in earlier discussion because I thought it might be too much information but I am a male who is circumcised and everything works great, has always worked great and I am happy and everyone else appeared to be happy with it as well. I do not have any bad feelings towards my parents for doing it when i was born. I may be biased, but I think it is more aesthetically pleasing with a zero trade off in my experience (and I am sure in other men as well) My understanding of female circumcision is that it is severing the clitoris- note to people making the comparison to the male version that it is obviously not the same thing. As in so obvious I do not understand why anyone could conceivably make the comparison.

It is so absurd I almost do not believe someone actually can believe that the procedures are the same. Is there an ulterior motive? Maybe not, but this is suspicious
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DixieBlue Donating Member (504 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #37
78. I'll park my feminazi butt right here with you.
I love it when people say what I'm feeling more eloquently than I could ever hope to.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #37
83. Yay!
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #37
90. Excellent response!
:applause:
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #36
45. people get upset with bullshit arguments that don't hold water.
fgm and male circumcision are about as equivalent as a tonsillectomy and radical mastectomy. all the capital letters in the world will not change that.
and do you realize that fgm is usually done at puberty, with no anethstesia, with an unsterile instrument, sometimes just a shard of broken glass, in an unsterile location, and usually without anything to stop the bleeding? do you realize that men do not die from the lifelong effects of circumcision?
think, will ya?
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FryLock3000 Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 12:32 AM
Response to Reply #45
50. Well, maybe you need to do a little thinking yourself
Edited on Mon Apr-23-07 12:33 AM by FryLock3000
Or at least some research. In some parts of Africa, men are lining up for circumcisions to curb the HIV outbreak. From the videos I've seen, the foreskin is stretched across a board and clamped down. Then, a man holding a machete chops off the foreskin with one blow. The men scream in pain, and someone nearby immediately puts ointment on the penis. And in the videos I've seen, the machete and board are re-used for all the men in line.

And you're "at least men don't die" argument is laughable. I guess as long as it doesn't kill the men, it's not a serious issue.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #50
68. Do you have a link to the videos? Because this is encouraging.
Finally a sure fire way to cut down on hetrosexually transmitted AIDs in Africa where clean water is hard to come by.
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ThomCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #36
91. Bull Shit!
First, If someone sliced off the entire head of your penis, maybe then it would be comparable. But comparing the loss of a foreskin to the loss of the clitoris?
:wtf:

Second, male circumcision isn't as loaded with social control and dominance issues.

Third, being uncircumcised doesn't make a guy unmarryable, or in any way reduce his respectability. There is no social consequence of being uncircumcised.

Bringing male circumcision into this discussion is a total evasion. You're belittling the seriousness of FGM and, in effect, changing the subject.

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lukasahero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
38. Actually, one causes pain during sex for the rest of their lives
and the other does not. Circumcised men can experience pleasurable sex, circumcised women cannot. Even the reasons behind the acts are different: one is for supposed health reasons (admittedly debatable), the other is to specifically deny pleasure in the act of sex.

Get a clue.
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Occulus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #38
55. I'm cut
and it hurts because I don't make lube.

Because I'm cut.

Know how I know this?

I once simulated being uncut for myself. The faucet ran like a faucet.

It never did, before or since.

I wish I had been given the choice to be cut or uncut and I consider that lack of choice to be mutilation.

Prove my interpretation of the facts as they apply to me is wrong. I dare you to try.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #55
92. Did you ever check with your Jewish friends about this problem?
'Cause, I mean, my husband (and his ancestors going back 4,000 years) seems to have no complaints whatsoever in that department.

You might ask your partner to use a little KY jelly if your foreplay doesn't seem to be causing HER to -- um -- how did I get onto this subject in the first place? :blush:

Anyway, fella, get yourself some KY jelly. Older women swear by it.

Hekate

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FryLock3000 Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 01:44 AM
Response to Reply #38
56. Actually
Historically, two of the reasons male circumcisions became common practice in America were to suppress sexual pleasure and discourage masturbation. Do some reading please. The supposed "health reasons" is just the current justification for people who make excuses to violate infants.
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Amused Musings Donating Member (285 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #56
58. Once again,
the difference is is that male circumcision suppress neither while female circumcision succeeds in its aims. I have no idea about what you are saying is true. Maybe it is, but I doubt and I doubt that is what 99% or parents were thinking when it was performed on infants.

Let me repeat: these "historical" reasons do not succeed in their aim of male circumcision-if that is even a true statement.

Female circumcision does succeed in its aim and your continued defense of comparing the two is just wrong.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #56
62. Modern science begs to differ
Do some reading please.

The place to start is here:

Pub Med.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?CMD=search&DB=pubmed

Run a search for "HIV" and "circumcision"

There are currently 374 articles and commentaries in peer reviewed publications.

(up from 371 the last time HIV and circumcision came up a couple of weeks ago).
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #56
67. Actually, there have been no recorded cases of penile cancer in uncut males.
Absolutely none that I know of. Which may in fact where the cultural practice began. I think that the "discourage masturbation" argument holds little water because the practice has been going on for thousands of years. It is likely that as civilization built things related to cancer or disease started popping up, and those that started the practice realized its importance.

The Jews were slaves, though, and they were cut to distinguish them (supposedly) from royality, but I'm not sure that that clears up the full picture. There had to be a reason, over time, why the tradition has continued to persist. And current scientific evidence does point toward hygine more than anything.
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. ??? - I think you should do some further reading....
Edited on Mon Apr-23-07 09:16 PM by depakid
First entry on a pub med search for "penile cancer" "circumcision"

Carcinoma of the penis: experience from 360 cases. J BUON. 2004 Jan-Mar;9(1):51-5.

PURPOSE: To report the therapeutic results of 360 cases of squamous cell carcinoma of the penis treated by surgery.

PATIENTS AND METHODS: During the period 1974-1993 the records of 360 patients admitted in our Department with histologically diagnosed squamous cell penile cancer were retrospectively analyzed.

Eighty-eight percent of them were uncircumcised.

The surgical treatment which was performed included: circumcision 32 patients, local excision 12, partial amputation 227, total amputation 75, and 5 cystostomies in 5 of the 9 inoperable patients. Eightytwo patients had metastases to the inguinal lymph nodes; 30 inguinal,4 ilio-inguinal unilateral, and 35 inguinal,13 ilio-inguinal bilateral lymph node dissections were performed. In cases with partial amputation 1.5 cm margin proximal to the tumor was left.

RESULTS: No local recurrence after partial or total amputation occurred.

In 19 (8%) patients with partial amputation and in 5 (7%) with total amputation urethral meatus stenosis appeared. Complications after lymphadenectomy were as follows: wound infection in 12 (10%) patients, skin flap necrosis in 14 (12%), lymphocele in 17 (14%) and lymphedema in 19 (16%; 4 unilateral and15 bilateral).

The 5-year survival was 91% for patients with stage T1-3 N0, 59% for patients with stage T1- 3 N1-2 and 29% for patients with stage T1-3 N3. At 10 years the survival was 80%, 42% and 0%, respectively.

CONCLUSION: As the stage at presentation appears to be the most important prognostic variable for survival, early diagnosis and treatment give the best results. In stage T3 it is better to do primary lymphadenectomy as the possibility for metastasis during 2-3 years after amputation is about 80%. In stage T2 with poorly differentiated tumors, if the patient is not suitable for surveillance, it is also better to do primary lymphadenectomy as the possibility for metastases is about 30%.
-----------------

There are 64 entries on this particular search, though not all of them are relevant to circumcision, per se, and medical issues are a bit more complicated than this one study shows.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #71
79. That's 360 patients in 20 years...
Total... TOTAL!

So, they should circumcise the remaining 150,000,000 males in this country to prevent something
which eventually affects... One millionth of the population?

:rofl:
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depakid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #79
93. Obviously, you didn't do the reading....
The point of the one study was simply to show that the above poster was full of shit.

To understand why your comment is lame, you'll pay better attention and maybe take 2-3 minutes and run the search I suggested just above that in post #62.

Of course, you can just remain ignorant and embarrass yourself on public fora- seems to be a popular thing to do in America these days.
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-25-07 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #93
96. Instead of resorting to ad hominin attacks you should do some reading on how...
Edited on Wed Apr-25-07 09:39 AM by Prag
Republican Ideology has permiated the National Institutes of Health...

Instead of embarrasing yourself on a public Democratic Fourm.

http://www.thedubyareport.com/sou-hhs.html

AIDS Proposal in Context
While his remarks concerning health care were a continuation of last year's congressional battles, Bush stunned liberals and conservatives alike with his announcement of $15 billion over five years "to turn the tide against AIDS in the most afflicted nations of Africa and the Caribbean."

The administration AIDS plan appears to be modeled after the ABC program in Uganda that emphasizes abstinence and "partner reduction," but does include condom distribution -- something Bush has opposed in other settings. ABC stands for: Abstain, Be Faithful, use a Condom.

Harvard medical anthropologist Edward C. Green who has studied the Ugandan program, which began in 1986, reports a 15% reduction in AIDS infection in Uganda between 1991 and 2001. Observers note that those figures include a large number people who died.

And as Bob Herbert has written in the New York Times, "Alarm bells automatically go off" when the administration appears to be helping those in need. Viewing the AIDS proposal in the context of the administration's overall record on reproductive health seems to justify caution if not skepticism.

One of Bush's first actions after his anointing was to reinstate the "global gag rule," disqualifying humanitarian organizations from US aid if they provided abortion counseling to clients. Subsequently he held up $3 million of the World Health Organization's Human Reproduction Program, and is redirecting $33 million of the US contribution to the UN Population Fund budget to pay instead for domestic abstinence counseling.

Despite administration assurances that the AIDS funding would not come from existing health programs, Bush budget proposals would reduce spending for child survival and maternal health from $495 million to $384.6 million -- a reduction of more than $110 million. Moreover, funding for non-AIDS infectious disease prevention would drop from $185 million to $104.4 million. Senior health policy adviser at the US Agency for International Development, Felice M. Apter, said that the funding reduction could eliminate programs, including routine vaccinations "It depends upon what Congress will do," she said.

The US has supported child health programs abroad for 30 years, and the proposed funding reductions disappointed health care workers at USAID and elsewhere. Speaking to the Boston Globe, Nils Daulaire of the independent Global Health Council said "The bottom line is with 10.5 million children dying around the world each year from easily preventable causes -- things that could be stopped at very low costs -- this is an area where the world community has really dropped the ball over the last decade. When you recognize that you have dropped the ball, you don't drop it even further." "Simply shifting money into AIDS is at very best a neutral shift, or a relabeling of money, which is contrary to the intent of the president to provide additional funding. It also could make the situation worse by undermining the ability of health delivery systems to get the jobs done."

Daulaire observed that while the administration had originally pledged $2 billion in AIDS funding for the current fiscal year, the budget only contained $1.86 billion.

Noting that pharmaceutical companies were among Bush's largest campaign contributors, Kenneth Davidson, writing in the Australian newspaper The Age, speculated that much of the Bush AIDS funding will find its way into the coffers of US pharmaceutical companies as subsidies to protect their markets in developing countries.

Bush's proposed $15 billion in aid was met with cautious optimism by some AIDS care workers. Jose Zuniga, president and CEO of the International Association of Physicians in AIDS Care, issued a statement saying in part, "If President Bush's call for significantly increased resources with which to treat and prevent AIDS around the world comes to fruition -- and if the plan is as straightforward as it appears -- this may represent one of the largest steps taken in the history of this struggle."

On conservative Internet message boards, some participants suspected Bush was playing to liberal voters. "I'm not calling Bush a leftist, (but) I don't take him seriously on this AIDS racket," a poster on the FreeRepublic conservative activist web site wrote. "I think he was trying to score points with the left."

The Right-wing Evangelical Agenda in Action
Tripp Baird of the conservative Heritage foundation suggested that Bush's proposal to ban so-called "partial birth abortions" as well as human cloning would pacify conservatives. But he implied that conservatives in Congress might defeat the AIDS initiative under the cover of fiscal restraint, or have designs on the AIDS funding for faith-based programs. ""I think what maybe conservatives are thinking is that in time of deficit you don't want to propose more spending. But my hunch is that they're also concerned about how you spend that $15 billion," he said.

The White House has indicated that religious groups will be eligible for some of the AIDS funding. The Rev. Franklin Graham, who runs the Christian relief organization, Samaritan's Purse, (and delivered the invocation at Bush's inauguration) responded enthusiastically to the AIDS proposal, noting that much relief work in Africa is already sponsored by churches. Graham attained notoriety recently for on more than one occasion denouncing Islam as a "very evil and wicked religion." His comments on the AIDS funding plan prompted a response by Islamic organizations. Ibrahim Hooper, a spokesman for the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said "We are in favor of increased spending on AIDS drugs for those who can't afford them. But we would be greatly concerned if taxpayer money goes to a group headed by Franklin Graham, who has a long history of hostility toward Muslims and Islam."

Much of the Bush administration's agenda in the areas of social justice, human rights, and especially women's rights, has been determined by right-wing evangelical partisans, however. Some of the best evidence of this campaign is what the Nation calls replacing "career diplomats with career ideologues" at the United Nations. According to the Nation, under the Bush administration nearly every US delegation to any UN meeting has included:

John Klink, a former chief negotiator for the Vatican
Jeanne Head of the National Right to Life Committee (NRLC)
Janice Crouse of Concerned Women for America --the group founded by Beverly LaHaye, wife of Tim LaHaye who authored the Left Behind series of religious right science fiction.
Others from the so-called "pro-life" lobby.

The US delegation has brought negotiations to a halt at meetings of UN General Assembly Special Session on Children, the World Summit on Sustainable Development and the Fifth Asian and Pacific Population Conference, objecting to support of nearly universally accepted public health practices such as condom use for AIDS prevention, and medically safe abortions where legal.

In March 2001 the US delegation to the UN Commission on Human Rights was so disruptive that for the first time in history the US was not re-elected to the commission. (They were invited back after the attacks of September 11, 2001).

In May of that year, instead of the usual delegates from organizations such as the American Medical Association and the American Public Health Association, the administration sent Jeanne Head of the NRLC to represent US interests at the World Health Assembly.

A year later the US attracted international attention at the Special Session on Children when HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson joined Iran, Syria, Libya, Sudan and Iraq, along with the Vatican, in lobbying against comprehensive sex education for adolescents, advocating that information about contraception and the prevention of sexually-transmitted disease be restricted to married couples, and seeking to have the session adopt a definition of "reproductive health services" that did not include abortion. The alliance created an interesting counterpoint to Bush's war against Islamic fundamentalism in which he had declared nations were either "with us or against us."

Rather than focus on problems of improving health services for young people around the world, who, for example, are becoming infected with HIV at a rate of one every five every minutes, the US delegation appeared determined to try to rewrite terminology and definitions that had been agreed to in prior years. During a session on children in the aftermath of military conflict, the US objected to the language: "When there are children who have been victims of violence and trauma in war, we need to provide them with services." "Nobody could understand why the United States would oppose language," Zonny Woods of Action Canada for Population and Development said. "But because among those victims of violence there might be girls who were victims of rape, who might be offered emergency contraception or an abortion, they were willing to throw away the whole concept of 'services.' It was just insane." The US also succeeded in preventing a consensus statement opposing the death penalty for adolescents.

Then on November 1, 2002 Bush announced that his administration was contemplating withdrawing from a 1994 agreement signed by representatives of 179 countries that established for the first time a connection between population control and the availability of information concerning contraception for women. Once again the US delegation wanted all references to "reproductive health services" and "reproductive rights" removed. In a regional meeting leading up to the Fifth Asian and Pacific Population Conference, a US delegate was ridiculed when she tried to insist from the podium that natural family-planning methods be emphasized in the conference statement. An Iranian ob-gyn pointed out that such methods have a high failure rate, "And by the way, it says so in all the textbooks that come from United States."

The US reportedly threatened small countries like the Philippines, Sri Lanka, and Nepal that their share of USAID funds would be withheld if they didn't vote with the US. "They really overplayed their hand," said Françoise Girard of the International Women's Health Coalition. "... the fringe who've taken over US policy on sexual and reproductive health. Some people asked me, 'Do you think they're doing this because they want to save our souls?'" With cowboy swagger characteristic of the Bush administration, the US delegation insisted on a roll-call vote on provisions of the agreement concerning reproductive rights and adolescent health. They lost the votes 31 to 1 and 32 to 1, with Nepal and Sri Lanka abstaining. The US statement dissenting from the conference agreement struggled to resolve the incompatibility between an avowed concern for women's rights and a self-evident opposition to free expression of -- or even the term -- reproductive rights. While claiming concern that "the promotion of women's full enjoyment of all human rights is not emphasized more often," the statement went on to say "Because the United States supports innocent life from conception to natural death, the United States does not support, promote, or endorse abortions, abortion-related services or the use of abortifacients." The statement also contained the curious locution, "The illegality of abortion cannot be construed as making it unsafe."

Women's health advocates see Bush's assault on reproductive rights concerns at the UN. as a convenient way of accomplishing two administration goals: reducing UN influence over militarism and the flow of capital while simultaneously delivering on the right-wing agenda. "The Bush Administration has been able to get away with what would be appalling to most moderate Republicans," Jennifer Butler, the Presbyterian Church's UN representative, told the Nation. Butler, who tracks the Christian right's activities at the UN, noted that the public and the press do not pay much attention to meetings at the UN. "Bush can throw a bone to the Christian right and score some points, and he can do that without a cost," she added.

The assault on reproductive rights has appeared on the domestic front, as well. In October an HHS panel was directed to study what protections were given to embryos during medical experiments. The public justification was that the study was aimed at providing additional protection to pregnant women. Only antiabortion groups applauded the directive, however, as it appeared to pro-choice advocates as merely another incremental attempt to establish personhood for fetuses and embryos.

Then in late January 2003 the HHS announced that it had developed a way to provide prenatal care to women who might not otherwise be eligible. The alleged solution: broaden the definition of a "child" eligible for coverage under the Children's Health Insurance Program -- a process that HHS officials referred to as "clarification." The new rules would define childhood as beginning not at birth, but at conception. The net effect of the "clarification" is that fetuses would become eligible for health coverage. HHS Secretary Tommy Thompson told the New York Times that the policy change "would help poor mothers be able to take care of their unborn children and get the medical care they absolutely, vitally need."

Abortion opponents celebrated the ruling as a step toward a goal they had been seeking for years. "We applaud this Bush administration proposal to recognize the existence of an unborn child in order to allow the baby, and the mother as well, to receive adequate prenatal care — a concept to which only the most extreme pro-abortion ideologues will object," said Douglas Johnson of the National Right to Life Committee.

The Times' Bob Herbert observed,

The truth is the January decision had little to do with the health care of women. It was a political move, pure and simple. It was the Bush administration's way of sending a message to the right- wingers of the Republican Party: Don't give up hope. We're committed to undermining abortion rights.

In fact, coverage under the Children's Health Insurance Program could have been extended to pregnant women by simply waiving some existing rules, or by a minor legislative change. Reproductive rights advocates noted that defining fetuses and embryos as persons could create tragic conflicts if preserving the health of the mother required treatment potentially harmful to the fetus. One example of such a situation would be a mother who required radiation or chemotherapy. "This is not about health care for women," said Kate Michelman, president of the National Abortion and Reproductive Rights Action League. "It's all about politics. It's about undermining a woman's right to choose, disguised as health policy."

Lynn Paltrow, director the National Advocates for Pregnant Women went further, describing the HHS policy move as a cynical attempt to divert attention from the administration's failure to support a wide range of initiatives to improve the delivery of health care to women and children. "This maneuver to create insurance for unborn children both personifies the fetus and accentuates the fact that women themselves are neither full persons under the law, nor valued enough to be funded themselves," she said.

Other critics noted that 11 million of the 40 million Americans without health insurance are children, and that if the administration wanted to do something to extend health coverage, it could direct some attention to those without it.

Ideological Litmus Tests at HHS
Like the systematic replacing of "career diplomats with career ideologues" at the UN, the Bush administration has been screening the political and ideological orientation of scientific consultants and appointees to try to ensure that their policy recommendations are consistent with the White House political agenda.

As reported by the LA Times in December 2002, psychologist and addiction expert William R. Miller was interviewed by a Bush staff member concerning participation in a panel that advises the National Institute on Drug Abuse. But the questions had nothing to do with Miller's expertise: Did Miller support abortion rights? The death penalty for major drug dealers? And had he voted for President Bush? Miller, who did not vote for Bush, was not asked to join the panel.

Members of the administration insist that they were only ensuring that their point of view was represented. Critics maintained, however, that Bushies were placing unprecedented emphasis on ideology over science. For example, ideological screening was applied to candidates for at least one panel that only gives technical advice on research proposals, and has no policy-making function. Donald Kennedy, past president of Stanford University and editor of the prestigious journal Science said "I don't think any administration has penetrated so deeply into the advisory committee structure as this one, and I think it matters. If you start picking people by their ideology instead of their scientific credentials, you are inevitably reducing the quality of the advisory group."

Recent complaints concerning HHS:

Democrats and public health advocates allege that in the fall of 2002 the administration appointed industry advocates to panels at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that make recommendations concerning environmental toxins, bioterrorism preparations, and the prevention of lead poisoning in children. Appointees to the lead panel included Dr. William Banner Jr., an Oklahoma physician who reportedly has testified that lead is harmful only at levels well beyond the current government standards, and Dr. Sergio Piomelli of Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center in New York, who announced at the committee's first meeting in October that he had been nominated by "someone from the lead industry," whose name he could not remember.
During the summer of 2002 the administration allowed the terms of 15 of the 18 members of the National Center for Environmental Health Advisory Committee to expire, without reappointing them. The committee advises the Centers for Disease Control concerning bioterrorism preparedness and safe drinking water standards among other matters. Senators Edward M. Kennedy (D-Massachusetts) and Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-New York) wrote Secretary Thompson to complain that one of the new appointees was formerly the president of a research firm funded by the chemical industry, and another "has made a career countering claims of links between pollutants and cancer."
On December 10 the Food and Drug Administration (FDA) rejected a nominee to an advisory board who advocates the use of human cloning in medical research. The nominee had been approved by subject experts at the FDA but was rejected by higher officials. (Despite Bush's ambivalent statement concerning stemcell research in August 2001, the State of the Union message called on Congress to ban human cloning.)
Thompson's office rejected three nominees to the Safety and Occupational Health Study Section, a panel that provides peer review of applications for research grants. The nominees had been chosen by the panel staff and other officials, and had been approved by the then-director of the occupational safety institute. Although the office gave no reason for the rejections, in a letter to Sen. Kennedy, Dana Loomis, of the University of North Carolina who is chairman of the panel, wrote that the reasons "seem clear enough in at least one case: One of the rejected nominees is a respected expert in ergonomics who has publicly supported a workplace ergonomics standard." Bush last year repealed a similar rule designed to require employers to take the initiative in reducing repetitive stress and other workplace injuries. The nominee Loomis was referring to, Laura Purnett of the University of Massachusetts in Lowell, said that she had been subjected to "an ideological litmus test" that implied that she could not be objective in her work on the panel. Catherine Heaney of Ohio State University, another of the rejected nominees said she did not know why she was rejected, either. Her most recent research concerned ergonomics, as well.
Applying ideological screening to peer review panels is particularly troublesome to scientists and researchers, because the function of such panels is not to make policy but solely to judge whether scientists seeking federal funding have designed experiments that can actually address the matters they are studying.

Anthony Mazzaschi, an assistant vice president at the Association of American Medical Colleges explained "The goal here is to fund the best science, the best-designed experiments. To stack peer-review panels based on political preferences rather than scientific competency is doing everyone a disservice."

Loomis, the occupation safety panel chairman, told the LA Times "Regardless of what the intention was, this creates the appearance that review panel members are being politically scrutinized, which is directly opposed to the philosophy of peer review, which is supposed to be nonpolitical and transparent." This, he asserted "tends to stifle the scientific spirit."

David Michaels, of George Washington University, a public health expert who served in the Clinton administration added "They're stacking committees to get the advice they know they want to hear, which is a charade," adding "Why have an advisory panel if you know what everyone is going to say, and they agree with you?"

Thomas Murray, president of the Hastings Center, a New York bioethics institute was nominated and subsequently rejected from the Biological Response Modifiers Advisory Committee, an FDA panel that makes recommendations concerning protein drugs, gene therapy and related topics. Concluding that there was a pattern to the rejections, Murray complained, "The fact that they would even bother to blacklist me is ... deeply sad. It portends a distortion of the process of determining what the facts are on a health topic or in environmental policy."

Senator Kennedy summarized the situation: "Advisory committees are supposed to give the government and the public expert, unbiased advice based on the best possible science. By stacking these important committees with right-wing ideologues instead of respected scientists, the administration is putting the health and well-being of the American public at risk."

But the reign of ideology over science is not confined to advisory panel appointments. Information given to the public has been subjected to ideological censorship, as well. Over the course of the year 2002 HHS quietly removed from its web sites information concerning:

How using condoms protects against AIDS
How abortion does not increase the risk of breast cancer
How to run programs to reduce teenage sexual activity

Department spokesman Bill Pierce claimed that in all three cases the information had been removed so that it could be updated.

Terje Anderson of the National Association of People with AIDS, scoffed at Pierce's explanation. Referring to condom information, which was removed from the National Center for HIV, STD and TB Prevention Web site on July 23, 2001, she said, "Something doesn't need to disappear for a year and a half to be updated."

James Wagoner, president of Advocates for Youth, a public health organization dealing with adolescent sexual health, agreed, saying there "seems to be a concerted effort to censor science and research that supports contraception in favor of 'abstinence-only until marriage' programs."

Pierce also claimed that the CDC and NIH had removed the information without interference from HHS.

In the case of the condom information, however, he was contradicted by the responsible CDC official, Dr. Ron Valdiserri, deputy director of the center's program for HIV, STD and TB Prevention, who said at a news conference on October 31 that the removal had been a joint decision between CDC and HHS.

Representative Henry A. Waxman, the California Democrat, and other members of Congress complained in writing to Thompson about the removal of information. "We're concerned that their decisions are being driven by ideology and not science, particularly those who want to stop sex education. It appears that those who want to urge abstinence-only as a policy, whether it's effective or not, don't want to suggest that other programs work, too," Waxman told the New York Times.

The information that no link has been found between abortion and breast cancer was removed in June in response to a letter to Thompson from Representative Christopher H. Smith, the New Jersey Republican who is co-chairman of the House Pro-Life Caucus. In his letter Smith called the National Cancer Institute research "scientifically inaccurate and misleading to the public."

Smith further claimed that his objections were scientific and not political. The letter asserted that a majority of studies showed a relationship between abortion and breast cancer, and that the study which the National Cancer Institute reviewed "contains many significant flaws."

Gloria Feldt, president of the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, disagreed, saying "They are gagging scientists and doctors. They are censoring medical and scientific facts. It's ideology and not medicine. The consequences to the health and well-being of American citizens are secondary to this administration."

Summing up the Bush crusade against reproductive health and women's rights Terri Bartlett, of Population Action International concluded, "It's like Bush is sacrificing the women of the world to pay his political dues," A UN official added "We have got to figure out a way to avoid this.... Because AIDS won't wait. Unwanted pregnancies won't wait."

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-28-07 09:02 PM
Response to Reply #71
101. Hey, I said "none that I know of." Give me a break. :P
And yes it's a rare cancer. It was a cheap point.
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Katherine Brengle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-28-07 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #31
98. I've never heard of a baby boy being circumcised with a piece of broken glass...
I'm not saying circumcision is okay, but these two things are NOT the same, not even close.
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gravity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 03:43 PM
Response to Original message
35. It's just the way it is in some parts of the world
It's a cultural phenomenon, and many women will defend female circumcision in many parts of the world. It's condescending for westerners to go to Africa and act like they know what's best for the people over there.

If you want to end the practice, you have to challenge the patriarchal culture and give women more opportunities to support themselves financially other than just marrying. Just denouncing female circumcision without addressing the other problems in society won't make the situation any better, and would just hinder other efforts in establishing relations with Africa.
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mopinko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #35
44. that's what people said about apartheid. nt
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Apr-22-07 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #35
48. opportunities do exist, but it just takes time
i'm thinking i saw about the same proportion of female police and border control officers in kenya as in the united states -- however, these women did not appear to be from the majority people (the masai, who run tall and thin) but from some of the minority groups that may be a little more open to change because the old ways aren't serving them so well anyway

it would be interesting to know the true proportion of women in jobs in, say, law enforcement in kenya compared the united states, i would be surprised if it were that different

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Apr-23-07 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #35
66. Anything that is damaging to a foriegn environment should be spoken out against...
...this means anything from lack of clean drinking water, to even FGM. We can say what we want.

BTW, I don't know of "many" women who want the procedure, in fact I have seen plenty of videos of this process being done to pre-pubecent children, and they are terrified the whole while. There is a monopoly on "male caretaking" and the females must "do it" to please the male. Muslim texts do not require it, but "female castration" (which is what this is) does speak highly of it to "please the male."

Gotta have a nice dry vagina when you're uncircumcised. Makes things nice and rough.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-28-07 04:25 PM
Response to Reply #66
99. also a great many people in kenya are NOT muslim
Edited on Sat Apr-28-07 04:26 PM by pitohui
the majority are christian -- presbyterian (there is an area that is even somewhat named like an area of scotland, the abedares), catholics, and so on

whether FGM is mainstream muslim culture or not, i do not know, but there is no reason it should be accepted as mainstream kenyan culture

i don't understand the folks who say "that's their culture, that's their karma, i leave them to it" and they don't even have a clue of what they're talking about

i just googled and kenya.com says only 6 percent of kenyans are muslim -- and i would be surprised if all of those supported the practice of FGM -- i think this ugly practice has been pushed into kenya from northern africa and it should NOT be allowed to remain

just my opinion but i certainly don't see FGM as integral to east african culture!
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #35
76. and there are famous African women who are working to end this practice
I had a very good friend in college whose parents brought her and her three sisters from Egypt to the US to prevent them from being mutilated.

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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #35
85. It is not condescending to try to stop violence against women
Jesus. Is this DU?
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gaspee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 08:22 AM
Response to Original message
74. And once again
A hijacked thread. Not once can a women's issue be talked about without it being hijacked by men thinking they have an issue that's more important.

Never. Fails. Never.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #74
75. because having a bit of foreskin removed at birth is the same as
being held down on the ground at the age of 7-10 while a woman cuts out your clitoris, carves up your labia and then sews you shut with only a straw to let out your menstrual blood (if you are lucky enough to live long enough)...and urine...

and then...when it is all healed up....you get married off, typically against your will, to a guy who gets a ceremonial blade or perhaps grows an extra long fingernail...so he can open up the old wound to enjoy his prize...

...and all this is done to insure that the girl is both a virgin and will be docile...on her wedding day.



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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #75
87. And who won't stray for sex, because she won't feel/enjoy sex
Edited on Tue Apr-24-07 10:45 AM by LostinVA
This is also against the Koran.
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bleedingheart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #87
88. because in reality women are just property to be bargained for
and the women who turn out not to be worthwhile property (barren, can't cook, talks back)...they are cast out or tortured in some inventive way...and to a degree it even happens in this country...

There are girls at 18 who get breast augmentation for graduation gifts...guess a watch was out of the question when you can surgically alter the girl so that she is more appealing to men...

In my opinion if circumcision impaired men to the degree it impairs women...it would never have continued...



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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #88
89. Yup -- good post
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Apr-28-07 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #88
102. Yes! Good post!
I agree 100%. Women have been seen as property. Bar none that is the single most important point to be made here.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 10:44 AM
Response to Reply #74
86. BINGO
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 10:38 AM
Response to Original message
80. Good for him
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Hugin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Apr-24-07 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Seconded.
Barbaric practice.
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