Loss of Arctic ice leaves experts stunned

[RamboLiberal]

Source: Guardian Unlimited

The Arctic ice cap has collapsed at an unprecedented rate this summer and levels of sea ice in the region now stand at record lows, scientists have announced.

Experts say they are "stunned" by the loss of ice, with an area almost twice as big as the UK disappearing in the last week alone.

So much ice has melted this summer that the Northwest passage across the top of Canada is fully navigable, and observers say the Northeast passage along Russia's Arctic coast could open later this month.

If the increased rate of melting continues, the summertime Arctic could be totally free of ice by 2030.

Mark Serreze, an Arctic specialist at the US National Snow and Ice Data Centre at Colorado University in Denver, said: "It's amazing. It's simply fallen off a cliff and we're still losing ice."


Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2007/sep/04/climatechange

[NMMNG]

1. Bah! There's no such thing as global warming.

:sarcasm:

[nikto]

36. There's no changing the true rightards' "minds"...

Stories like this simply "prove" global warming isn't real to the rightards.

Just like scripture "proves" to some of them that Jesus
loved the Rich and War too, by golly.

Not finding WMDs in Iraq "proved" Bush was right to invade.
And of course, this is backed up by the WMDs,
which were NOT found.

That is how the rightard mind operates.
That is how powerful the Kool-Aid is.

For the final "23-percenters", there may be no reaching them.

[Seabiscuit]

64. But.. but.. they know God placed dinosaur bones in the ground just to test their faith

and they know the universe is only 5K years old (or 6K or 9K, depending on who's counting) because they added up the ages of all the biblical figures starting with Adam.

And Bush says God speaks to him, and that makes him our Blessed Leader, so if he says global warming is just a hoax it must be so.

No, don't bother trying to "reach" the 23%ers - they fell of the edge of the flat earth long ago.

[ClintonTyree]

96. Sorry, you're wrong about that.......

it was SATAN who put the dinosaur bones in the ground to test our faith, not god. ;) Just a small clarification there, you got the rest of it right (or wrong, as the case may be). :rofl:

[RaleighNCDUer]

111. I think there's a schism in the creationist camp on that --

I've heard it firmly asserted that only god can create, therefore satan could not have created the dinosaur bone; therefore, god created them as a challange to the faithful.

So there, you satan-creator schismatic!

[ClintonTyree]

120. I can't keep up....

with all the nuttiness associated with the beliefs of fundamentalists. Either way, WE'VE BEEN TRICKED, and I guess I'm just too gullible to see the truth! ;)

[southpaw]

121. That was Slartibartfast...

But not so much to test their faith as to lend an air of realism to the thing.

[Raster]

83. Klaatu barada nikto?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaatu_barada_nikto

Michael Rennie was ill
The Day the Earth Stood Still
But he told us where we stand
And Flash Gordon was there
In silver underwear
Claude Rains was The Invisible Man
Then something went wrong
For Fay Wray and King Kong
They got caught in a celluloid jam
Then at a deadly pace
It Came From Outer Space
And this is how the message ran...

[harun]

102. They view this as a profit opportunity, because they can ship goods

cheaper via these new open waterways. Also easier to look for more oil and natural gas. They'll see nothing bad in this story at all.

[Ian_rd]

124. You totally took the words out of my mouth (fingers?)

Expect the AEI and other "think" tanks to start tripping over themselves to publish articles with exactly that spin.

[Ghost Dog]

143. Absolutely. And something else to (gloriously) fight about. And then we'll find the hole

at the North Pole that leads down to the center of the Earth (where the Angels come from).

(:sarcasm: tag hopefully unnecessary).

[midlife_mo_Jo]

166. That's almost unfathonable

"Experts say they are "stunned" by the loss of ice, with an area almost twice as big as the UK disappearing in the last week alone. "

And scary.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

2. even worse, it makes Tancredo seem prescient.

New Orleans cannot survive a 6 inch rise in sea levels, not with the frequency and size of storms heading into the gulf this year.

[starroute]

12. Arctic melting alone will not raise sea levels

The Arctic ice floats on water and therefore (if you can recall Archimedes' Principle from high school science) displaces its own weight in water. So when it melts, nothing changes.

The Greenland icecap is another matter -- and that's also receding some, though not as dramatically. But it's the Antarctic that's the real threat, the one that could drown us all if it lets loose.

[ChairmanAgnostic]

13. my area of Ill in noise is 690 ft

above sea level. I think I am safe, But,everyone on every coast, should think about stilts.

[demobabe]

28. So you think you're safe, huh?

Well, as the earth gets hotter, storms have to cool it down, and the hotter it gets, the more violent the storms get.

So you know those nifty tornadoes you have there in Illinois? Expect more. And worse.

AND, as Al Gore was saying, if the ocean patterns change because of global warming, different regions could suddenly find a complete shift in the weather. That could potentially affect Illinois too.

[frogcycle]

50. no 'could' about it

you don't have the kind of reallocation of energy that ice melt represents without radical changes in the patterns globally. Look at what El Nino causes with just a half-degree or so difference in a section of the Pacific. All the major sea currents, all the major upper air currents are subject to change. The Sahara was once a lush forest. It could be again. If the Gulf Stream were to shift Europe could enter an ice age. Maybe not permanent ice cover, but really severe winters - Spain could be like Siberia is now. No telling what happens to mid-America. But it sure won't stay the same. Probably a lot worse than just an increase in tornadoes.

[jwirr]

106. I am in Minnesota, the dangers in the midwest range from drought,

tornadoes, flash floods from torrential rains, forest fires and heavy snow or sleet storms.

One fortunate thing is that we are able to survive through most of those if we are prepared. The drought is to my imagination the most dangerous because it covers a larger territory and because if prolonged it permanently kills species and plants we require to survive. This year our swamps and ponds where wild geese and ducks usually live and breed are all but dry. Our tree's leaves are browning not just changing into fall colors a sign that they are not getting enough water from the former water levels. However, I think there may be a question if the drought is caused by the El Nino or by global warming or a combination of both.

Also our large cities are going to face the same problems as all large cities. They will have energy, water and food shortages.

[Voice for Peace]

127. No contest: the dangers in Wash DC are worst: dementors & deatheaters ..nt

[frogcycle]

135. there is no such thing as local advantage

You may be correct that the weather phenomena you describe can be dealt with by humans "if prepared."

But a global catastrophe is just that - global. The people on the "high ground" will not have the luxury of watching the others drown. They'll be fighting them for that dwindling ground and food supply. The disruption of coastal cities may be slow enough that the financial centers and such get relocated, but the costs of replacing submerged power-generating plants, refineries, port facilities, etc. pretty much means the world economy will collapse.

You'd have to be able to count on a locally-provided food supply. Importing beef from Argentina or Texas has to be written off; vegetables from California, Florida, Mexico - gone. That means cutting human population to what the local ecology - with all those weather problems - can sustain. Which means pretty much whatever it was some 500 years ago.

And there is no predicting what the major air and sea current changes will bring about. The Midwest could become like the Sahara just as likely as not.

No, we've pretty much self-destructed. It's just a matter of time. The good news is that the wholesale dieoff will reduce the burning of fossil fuels, and the Earth will recover. It will go on supporting less destructive ("intelligent") lifeforms until it is swallowed by the sun in a few billion years.

To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

- Wm Shakespeare, The Tragedy of Macbeth, Act 5, Scene 5

[Duppers]

148. excellent post. nt

:applause:

[northernsoul]

138. I agree, we can't get too comfortable

I drove to Alexandria a few weeks ago, and I can't tell you how disturbing it was to see field after field of withered, dead crops that had been destroyed by drought and extreme heat. My neighbors and I have been joking that maybe we should turn the neighborhood ball field into a mini-farm (the rec center is going to have to close due to budget cuts - thanks again, Tim Pawlenty!), in view of the factors that could lead to major disruptions in our food production and distribution chains maybe that's not such a crazy idea.

[SoCalDem]

149. Don't forget about the BUGS...

Harsh winters had been a way for agriculture to sneak a crop in before the bugs "awaken" and spread.. Bugs are very adaptable, and once they figure out that winter's no longer a big deal, they will swarm year-round, feasting on crops....meaning MORE pesiticides and higher prices..and who knows what else..

It;s all connected, folks..

[billyoc]

29. Way ahead of ya. I'm working on a system of rope bridges

between the highrises in Manhattan. :rofl:

[lonestarnot]

134. Damn! Beat me to it!

[billyoc]

142. That's ok, I need somebody to catch the ropes on the other side!

:rofl:

[lonestarnot]

144. Okeedokee.

[HereSince1628]

35. Dats El-a-noy.

Every REAL native son knows about Carl Sandberg's Poem!

I s'poze dat you alao say Whizkonzin.

[FourScore]

40. Okay. I'm stupid.

Why is the Antarctic such a threat if it goes? Because it's on land mass perhaps, and not situated on water? Hmm...pray tell...

[awoke_in_2003]

44. I am assuming you are being serious

so here it is- the ice on Antarctica, for the most part, is on land. The ice in the Arctic is in the water. If the ice on Antarctica melts, the seas will rise, because the water will flow off the land and into the sea. If the arctic melts, sea level will not change as it is floating ice. What some forget, though, is if the arctic melts, the salinity (and thus the density)of the Atlantic ocean will change. When this happens, the east coast and Europe will be GREATLY affected. The gulfstream will change, (google ocean conveyor) making both places much cooler. Europe could encounter another ice age. So, the melting of either pole is equally disastrous.

[kenfrequed]

60. Actually...

A reicing courtesy of the conveyor shutting down would be a best case scenario.

The worst possibility is a recasting of the Permian extinction where the increased heat nixes the O2 dissolved in the cold seawater. Animals die and sink, sulpher content increases as the oceans become acidic killing most of ocean life and making the water inhospitable to phytoplankton. The ocean burps methane and sulpheric gases, stops producing adequate 02 and the creatures on the land start dying off in great numbers.

Next to that a new ice age seems to be a pretty good day.

[Paulie]

46. Correct

Since it's not already floating in water and displacing water already it's already accounted for; the ice from land in Antarctica and Greenland would increase sea levels.

[niceypoo]

73. It isnt melting ice that will make the oceans rise significantly...

...it's thermal expansion from warming water.

[hatrack]

76. There is thermal expansion of water to consider, however.

Not exclusive to melting ice caps or shelves, naturally - anywhere water's growing warmer it will take up more space, and contribute maybe 10 - 15% of total sea level rise.

Graphics related to top story, from six years ago, one year and from today:

Arctic sea ice cover, 4 September 2001:



Arctic sea ice cover, 4 September 2006:



Arctic sea ice cover, 4 September 2007:

[Megahurtz]

140. HOLY SHIT!

:wow:

[0rganism]

145. Looks like we're about 1 yellow pixel away from a northern passage...

I guess some folks would call that an upside. :(

[Voice for Peace]

93. The bright side.. by 2050 most of Washington DC could be under water.

I saw NOVA on pbs tonight, a show called "Dimming the Sun" -- REALLY interesting. The effect of air pollutants apparently preventing some of the sun reaching the earth, thus holding back the effect of global warming.. such that if the air pollution is cleaned up w/o taking care of the greenhouse gases, the global warming is likely to accelerate dramatically. Hadn't heard of this before tonight.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Global+Dimming&btnG=Google+Search

[ClintonTyree]

97. I watched that as well....

and the leading Scientists believe we have less than a decade to level off, then reverse our CO2 emissions before we broach the 1 degree C threshold warming barrier that will plunge the earth into an environmental catastrophe.

I'd say the chances of that happening are amazingly slim considering the emerging markets of India and China and our own selfish dependency on fossil fuels. In short, we're SO SCREWN! :scared:

[RaleighNCDUer]

112. But, how does the loss of the arctic ice affect the melt rate of the

Greenland ice cap? I know it's melting at an accellerating rate and they haven't figured out why, exactly. Perhaps they didn't factor in the reduced albedo from the arctic melt.

So instead of Greenland being ice free in 50 years, it could be what? 10 years?

[hatrack]

118. Much of it may well be knock-on effects from the change in albedo

With the Arctic Basin suddenly absorbing and holding far more heat than in years past, that extra energy will likely effect both water and air temps.

Increases in water temps will mean thinner ice, earlier breakup, later freeze and continued thinning of the moving pack. Higher air temps will likely produce more precipitation, falling as more snow or (potentially) more rain. And the extra energy will also likely mean substantial changes in weather patterns - more violent storms and stronger winds, also contributing to further sea ice breakup.

As far as Greenland is concerned, 10 years strikes me as very early, since there's still one hell of a lot of ice left, more than two miles deep in some areas. However, I would be willing to be that ice-cap loss will proceed much faster than projected.

[5fingersurfer]

131. Read the latest Discover mag

There is an article in the latest Pop Sci mag about the main ice cap researcher in Greenland. The melting of the Greenland ice cap is progressing faster than anyone thought possible. If it melts completely, they estimate a 21 foot rise in sea level.


http://www.popsci.com/popsci/environment/6661e3568cc83110vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

[Duppers]

147. never mind. nt

:blush:

[zonkers]

3. self delete.

[jody]

4. Thanks! n/t

[Faygo Kid]

5. Frightening. We are headed for disaster sooner rather than later.

The denials will continue right up to the time the Rush listeners are knee deep in water. And beyond. No science can get through to these people, who consider Ann Coulter an expert in science. I'm glad I'm in my 50s. And sorry for those who are children. All we can do is continue to sound the alarm and take the ridicule, I guess, and say a sad "I told you so" in the next decade.

[GMFORD]

26. There are more of us than there are of them.

While they sit around waiting to be raptured because they are so special, the rest of us can work to save their sorry asses.

[Lorien]

69. My thoughts as well

my stomach always turns a bit when a friend tells me they are expecting a child. What horrors and struggles await their offspring? I've known for decades that OUR generation would see the effects of global warming because a scientist friend of mine has been studying it for over 40 years in the Antarctic. What he told me in the 80's convinced me never to have kids.Sadly, the Freeper types that I know down here can NEVER be convinced that mankind can have any effect on the planet. They would rather we all die then give up their SUVs and burgers. We've turned out to be one hell of a foolish species, and unfortunately we'll all get what only a few deserve for it.

[tabasco]

6. I remember when there was debate about overfishing the oceans.

The fishing industry fought the science that showed there was overfishing. They argued that the oceans were too vast for humans to have any significant impact. Millions of people believed the industry and not the scientists. They were wrong.

The same thing is happening with climate change. Industry exploits the ignorance of gullible people to convince them climate change isn't happening. "The sky is sooooo big, we can't possibly be affecting weather!" Masses of republican voters are either willfully ignorant or too stupid to grasp the science of human impact on the planet. The bad part about it is climate change will be much more difficult, if not impossible, to ameliorate.

[jwirr]

113. You are right about the denial factors but this time nature is providing

us with examples that no one can deny are happening because they are right in front of us: Katrina, the melting and all the big disasters that are related to weather. The real argument (except for idiots like inhofe) is if mankind is contributing to the changes. I think we are contributing as I was raised to believe that there are always consequences to sinful actions and greed is definitely a sin. How any rw fundie can deny this is a good question.

[CrispyQ]

117. Yep. First it was Orange Roughy & then Red Snapper.

I haven't eaten fish in twenty years, so I don't know what the latest fish craze is, but was I the only one who thought it was odd that the popular fish changed every couple of years? Many years ago I read a sci fi story that stated there were only a handful of places left on Earth where one did not hear the buzz of human activity.

I continue to be amazed at how few people seem to grasp the power of exponents. Yes, we are small & the planet is big, but there are almost seven billion of us! According to the chart below, it would take almost 224 years to count the current population of humans on Earth. Wow.



The above graphic accompanied an article by Carl Sagan in one of those Sunday paper magazines. He discussed exponents & how powerful they are. I miss Carl.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

164. The cartoon mustachioed counting fella appears in "Billions and Billions" (book by Sagan)

[CrispyQ]

165. Thanks! I'll check it out.

:thumbsup:

[Gman]

7. Yet, driven by the profit motive that has no conscience,

businesses are salivating at the possibilities of navigating the Arctic Ocean. All the while they cry that global warming is a lie and it's adherents are members of it's religion.

[proud patriot]

8. What have we left the children ?

:(

[Double T]

53. Less than nothing.

[lvx35]

59. No kidding. I never thought the north pole itself would become part of the santa myth.

Son, you're old enough to know, that there is no such thing as santa claus, nor an icy island at the top of the world where he, or anybody else could reside.

[Lorien]

72. No chance of growing old. n/t

[nuxvomica]

9. If this indicates a tipping point a la "The Day After Tomorrow"...

it's come at the worst time. We are less socially/politically/economically prepared to deal with it than ever before.

[Auggie]

10. I wonder when we'll really start to feel the effects of this... if we're not already

In terms of chronic drought, tropical storms, flooding, etc.

[gateley]

23. I think we HAVE begun experiencing the effects of all the changes....incrementially they're alarming

enough, but if you look at the cumulative occurrances... If I were a Christian I'd be thinking Armageddon.

[Auggie]

24. Welcome to D.U. gately!

No argument the drought in Australia and the U.S. Hurricane season of 2005 are harbingers that most come to mind. It was quite dry in California last winter too. Yet the U.S. agribusiness machine keeps pumping out corn and soybean at record rates. I'm waiting for these numbers to show a slide.

[Seabiscuit]

66. Indeed - the water temperature in the Gulf of Mexico is approaching 90 degrees

and that's why Katrina grew to a Category 5 once it left Florida.

Expect the scientists to have to invent a Category 6 or 7 in the next 5 or 10 years just to cover the Gulf of Mexico.

Bye-bye, NOLA. Bye-bye, Galveston. Bye-bye Biloxi. Bye-bye Cancun. And some day, bye-bye Miami.

[paparush]

103. Two CAT 5 storms in less than three weeks....Felix and Dean

[nxylas]

105. Yes, but they have hurricanes on Mars too

Or something.

[Seabiscuit]

156. You mean windstorms?

Hurricanes occur over oceans. Last I looked Mars didn't have any.

[nxylas]

158. It was meant to be a parody of the "global warming on Mars" argument

The deniers always trot out the idea that temperatures have risen on Mars too, thus disproving anthropogenic global warming, even though reliable temperature records for Mars only go back about 10 years.

[Seabiscuit]

161. OK. I hadn't heard that one before. n/t

[nxylas]

162. There's more here

http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2005/10/global-warming-on-mars/

It seems I was wrong when I said that temperature records for Mars only go back 10 years, it's more like 30. My apologies.

[HysteryDiagnosis]

11. Could be a bunch of terrorists with blowtorches doing bad

things to the pack ice. Save us GW, save us from the terrorists who are going to flood our coastal regions.

[valerief]

16. He's playing for October, November. nt

[pscot]

14. I've been thinking about selling the boat

But maybe I'll keep it a while longer.

[debbierlus]

15. I think it is over - I know I will be flamed, but I do.

The reason I say it is simple. Human beings usually need to reach a crisis state for change to occur (look at your own life, how many times has it taken forever to get out of bad relationships, bad jobs, bad situations for nothing but the fear of change). I think that by the time enough of a mass awakening has occurred to produce the will to change, we will have lost our window.

I am not giving up. I am still going to fight to bring awareness & bring change. It is just what I believe.

[Teaser]

18. Ah, there's probably another stable state out there we can reach

There are multiple equilibrium points that can be found in nature. We've just lost any shot of remaining in our previous comfy spot. The new spot will be a lot less comfortable, so I hope humans are ready for that. But I believe we can adapt to new circumstances, if we start modifying the behavior that's pushing us out past this equilibrium.

[RaleighNCDUer]

116. I think you're right.

So long as the base ecology survives and we don't go to a methane atmosphere or some shit, people will survive. Humanity survived the ice age. The Inuit thrived in an ice world, while the Basarwa thrived in the Kalahari. Mankind wil adapt.

But only after people die - a huge die off. Losing billions is not inconceivable.

[frogcycle]

137. no flames from me

I agree with you

the delayed reaction of cause and effect is beyond the grasp of most people.

[northernsoul]

141. no flames, but I hope you're wrong

If there's any lesson I've learned in this awful decade, it's that we have to think the unthinkable without surrendering to despair.

[Teaser]

17. Think of the economic benefits, folks

Don't be so shortsighted.

For a century we looked for a navigable northwest passage.

Now we have one.

Pretty sweet, huh?

Oh, and as for drowning polar bears: fuck 'em. All they do is eat fish and shit anyway.

[tom_paine]

21. PLUS, all that Arctic oil and natural gas will be exposed

Think of the bonanza of $$$$$$!

We can drill up all that damned Arctic oil from the Polar Jungles and vaporize it...which will make more Polar Jungles for the next species to dig up and vaporize (if they are stupid, they will fail to quickly enough find a renewable substiute like fusion, then they'll porbably overshoot and die-off)!

Yeeee-haaaaaaw!

[Adsos Letter]

52. And Russia gets its long-awaited year-round port...

[Blue_Tires]

90. mark my words: soon the RWers will

start a huge media blitz to try to convince people that this is a GOOD thing...

[Harper_is_Bush]

19. It's time to stop tolerating the deniers. All this "stiffling debate" bullshit is killing us.

They deserve to be shouted down and called what they are: lying bastards who care nothing about truth or future.

[lvx35]

61. Well said.

We've tolerated far too much bullshit.

[Harper_is_Bush]

78. Thx. It's time. Time to go on the offensive in the media just as strongly as they have....

I don't know if it's just my perception, but it sure seems like there's a lot more of these deceitful deniers flooding the internet with their outrage and mocking than there are reality-based people.

People are just in disbelief over the deniers, I think, and are waiting for them to be overwhelmed by the science...but IT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

They will forever lie and deny.

[lvx35]

79. "seems like there's a lot more of these deceitful deniers flooding the internet than..."

Yeah, weird, isn't it? And they show up religiously (on other forums) to spew nonsense and talking points and never actually think. Its like its their job. Sometimes I wonder if there isn't some huge megacorporation that just pays morons.

[Harper_is_Bush]

85. For some it is their "job". For others (ex. online) it's something else....

...for some people I believe it's born of an inability to face the overwhelming truth.

for others, I think they've decided it's a partisan issue...so it's as if they're on a podium debating it and will NEVER concede.

Certainly though (and most troubling) some have been assigned the job to deny.

[Odin2005]

101. For a lot of people it seems to be a form of misplaced skepticism.

I've noticed that a lot reasonable, educated people that are not Big Oil shills who are Denialists are well versed in the philosophy of science but don't really understand climatology, especially climate models. One I know thinks climate models are comparable to Astrology. :banghead:

[tom_paine]

94. I no longer wonder. That is exactly what is happening.

n/t

[jwirr]

114. Don't you just love the big oil commercials that are spouting the

"green" message. My stomach turns every time I see their big lies.

[FogerRox]

20. Arg.

[swag]

22. Suck on that, Michael Crichton and John Stossel.

[Harper_is_Bush]

25. They don't care. Nothing will ever faze the deniers, and believing it will only

wastes more time answering their next twist on the situation.

It will ALWAYS be ANYTHING but what that socialist IPCC is telling us. They will never accept reality.

Criminal negligence causing death is their guilt. Jail is too good for them.

[nikto]

37. How increasingly shameful Michael Crichton looks, day-by-day...

I have enjoyed a few of his books, and to think he was trained as a doctor!

Obviously, Crichton has made Zillion$ via the corporate system,
but hell, so have lots of authors, actors and rock stars.

Why has Michael Crichton become such an extreme,
fact-bending, science-denying corporate whore?

Sounds like he may have gotten a bit high on himself
and caught himself some "Ayn Rand" disease.

Just a guess on my part.

[glitch]

63. Early onset Alzheimers. Wait for it. Seems he's lost even his superficial grasp of complex systems.

And welcome to DU! nt

[RaleighNCDUer]

122. I've wondered if it was a reaction to the way scientists treated his

thesis in 'Jurassic Park'. Maybe he got so caught up in his own fiction that he began to think it was truth, so when scientists said it was impossible he took it personally.

Kind of opposite of when scientists wrote 'Jaws' off as a good monster story - only Benchley said, yeah, you're right, great whites don't do that, and began working to help preserve the species.

Denial is a weird thing.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

27. Now what's this about needing to maintain your wasteful suburban lifestyle

for the children? Or just because you feel like it?

[Tsiyu]

100. Lydia how dare you

encourage people to not go shopping! Just fliiped on the TV before i go to work in time to hear the CBS salesclerk....I mean...morning talk twit....ask an audience member "Are you a big SHOPPER?"

Like it's a religion or something.

Most pressing question facing the nation, dammit!

Aren't you a big happy SHOPPER. Lydia? I mean, C'mon. GO SHOPPIN'!

Why do you hate 'Murika??????????

[redqueen]

115. People's loathesome addiction to 'stuff' will be our undoing.

If this is how people act as the planet is being destroyed, then good riddance. Really.

[lovuian]

30. 2030 and I bet they are still lying their Butts off

http://youtube.com/watch?v=eZ-7uKPVbFs

We will see incredible changes

[defendandprotect]

42. NASA has been forced out of much to do with the environment/planet . . . ..

I'm surprised we've seen this much still from NASA -- thank you for the video!!!

They used to cruise the ozone hole and then Global Warming -- but the GOP didn't like their reports so more than a decade ago their flights were abated --

and last year or so even more crippling restrictions from Bushco --

In fact, as I recall it, they're to be out of the range of concerning themselves with the planet at all!!!!

[Doctor_J]

31. And Gore is considered weird, whilst James Inhofe is a respected

member of the Senate. America is doomed because of the ignorance of the populace

[Blue_Tires]

89. very true

still too many deniers with enablers in the press...in the near future there will be books, documentaries, college classes, etc all centered around the question of 'why didn't they do anything when they knew the facts and had a chance?'

[Doctor_J]

32. And Gore is considered weird, whilst James Inhofe is a respected

member of the Senate. America is doomed because of the ignorance of the populace

[defendandprotect]

43. I think Inhofe has been voted "stupidest" Senator of all time -- ?????

[Nevernose]

48. Among some people, yes.But the majority?

I think recent polls show that the majority of Americans believe that global warming is real and that Mankind is responsible for it.

Now, as to the painful -- note, not "difficult," just painful -- solutions, I'll wait to see what kind of proverbial testicles our leaders have in dealing with it. And I'll be waiting a long time, in all likelihood. It's not the Inhofes of the world we need to worry about, it's all the people in power who know better and refuse to do anything.

In other words: someone, somewhere, needs to grow some figurative balls.

[alfredo]

33. Water expands as it warms

Now think of an ocean of water getting warmer and expanding. The arctic ice displaced water, so that alone won't do much of anything to raise the water level. The darker water, as opposed to ice, will absorb more heat.


http://whyfiles.org/091beach/5.html
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/12/1205_021205_oblateearth.html

[NoodleyAppendage]

34. We deserve EXTINCTION.

Humans are stupid, short-sighted, and filled with hubris. Our species doesn't deserve to inherit the Earth. As with the dinosaurs, maybe its high time for humans to move over for a different dominant species. Insects, maybe?

J

[Lone_Star_Dem]

38. You forgot selfish

Humans are also painfully selfish. Not forgivable considering that we, of all the animals, are supposed to know better. :(

[ChairmanAgnostic]

49. shell fish? oh sorry, Selfish.

got it

[Seabiscuit]

67. Don't forget the cockroaches. Or Poland.

[frogcycle]

54. roger that

give it back to Mother Earth and let her get on with the next era. We will be a long-forgotten nightmare, a pestilence that was shaken off just in time. .

[glitch]

65. We do, but we're taking a helluva a lot of perfectly adapted species with us. They don't. nt

[silverojo]

88. Humans are the only hope for saving this planet

We are the only creatures capable of problem-solving on such a complex level. If humans became extinct after creating these problems, the only thing that wouldn't eventually perish would probably be cockroaches....

[KaptBunnyPants]

92. Give it 10 million years and everything will right as rain.

I wonder what kind of new creatures will adapt to replace the creatures we've wiped out. It's a shame people won't be there to find out, but then if we were we'd just kill them off too.

[nxylas]

108. Try "After Man" by Dougal Dixon

Not sure if it's still in print, but Dixon is an evolutionary biologist who speculates on what type of creatures may evolve after we've disappeared off this planet. Interesting stuff, though I'm not qualified to say how believable it is.

[slackmaster]

110. Article in the July issue of SciAm suggests it would take a whole lot less than that

http://sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=2691D716-E7F2-99DF-38F54EF6075AAB4D

[KaptBunnyPants]

126. Neat. Thank you.

nt

[slackmaster]

107. My nomination for our replacement

[hatrack]

133. I, for one, welcome our new feline overlords!

:toast: to the next rulers of Earth!

[ramapo]

39. Who needs the ice anyway?

I'd say this is a pretty common attitude. Most people don't like winter with its cold and ice. Add that to the simplistic thinking of many and you have a ho-hum, even positive spin on the loss of the ice cap. Day to day life hasn't changed and nothing truly weird has happened given this stunning collapse in the arctic. Some will feel bad for the polar bears but this event might just make global climate change seem rather benign.

[Harper_is_Bush]

41. Recommended. TELL EVERYONE YOU KNOW: THE NORTHWEST PASSAGE IS OPEN! GW IS REAL!!!

Co-workers/neighbours/people you pass on the street/the pizza guy (you shouldn't be ordering delivery, btw :)

Spread the word.

The only way those fuckers will act is if the public demands it. Altruism won't budge them.

[onehandle]

45. When I was really young, I was told I was going to die by a russian nuke.

When I was young, I assumed I'd die in Vietnam.

When I was a young adult, I came back to death by nuke, assuming Ronnie was going to start WWIII.

When I was fully responsible adult, I had eight years of peace and prosperity.

Now in middle-age, I lost a good job, saw my 401k shrink, and assumed that the assclowns running the country would let another 9/11 happen and in my travels would be in the wrong major city at the wrong time.

Assuming I survive the last 18 months of the current fiasco, I now assume I'll die with our dying planet and the rest of you.

[Hissyspit]

56. You still may die by nuke. When the wars start over the resources...

[onehandle]

57. Good point.

I was worried there for a minute.

A nuke would be quick, assuming I'm in town when it happens.

Thanks!

:)

[ClintonTyree]

98. When they start?

They're already started, compliments of BushCo. This is just the overture. The cacophonous, dissonant symphony of resource wars will begin in earnest the moment BushCo. begins their planned "regime change" in Iran. This is a piece that should never have been written, much less performed, but I fear the capitalistic orchestra of our government has already begun this incredibly sad and ill-written capriccio.

[Wapsie B]

47. Get your oceanfront property in Des Moines while you can. n/t

[aquart]

51. I don't know why they're stunned.

THE ROSS ICE SHELF IS MELTING! RUN FOR YOUR FUCKING LIVES!

How much clearer could it be?

[Double T]

55. Global warming is accelerating at an alarming incalculable rate............

with many thanks to people like these SUV drivers.

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/dump-your-suv/1534135760

[theHandpuppet]

74. I'd like to thank the overpopulation deniers

Who think their DNA is so special they just can't help but fill up those SUVs.

[minnesota_liberal]

58. With apologies to Frank Barone ... Holy Crap!

That's just 23 years from now. And for all we know, that estimate may turn out to be overly optimistic.

[tofurkey]

62. Apparently the grape harvests in France

have been telling the tale. They say in 1978 the harvest date was October 18. 1998 September 18. And this year, August 18. It keeps getting warmer...

[orleans]

68. this is so sad. n/t

[roxnev]

70. Gods revenge on Florida

You want to take my job appointing leaders I will rise a flood that will cover you, you shall not go unpunished Ohio. God loves honesty.:hurts:

[Lorien]

71. Florida elected Gore

the punishment should go to those five on the Supreme Court.

[minnesota_liberal]

99. And the GOP staffers who posed as FL citizens ...

... to stop a legal hand recount in 2000. They all deserve the same fate as Rove and Cheney.

[Harper_is_Bush]

86. That is a downright plain stupid comment. n/t

[highplainsdem]

75. Some NOAA global climate maps have apparently been taken offline

just since yesterday.

I noticed this because I've been checking those maps regularly since a topic about temperature anomalies in Antarctica was posted months ago in the Environment/Energy forum:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=115x95577

You can still find mean and anomaly sea surface temperature maps checking the NOAA map room page

http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/map/

but there's no link there to pages of maps for surface temperature anomalies, the maps I'd been following because the surface temp maps regularly showed temps about 20 degrees Centigrade higher than normal over the Ross Ice Shelf (the collapse of that ice shelf is predicted to result in dramatic sea level rises).

I last looked at those maps just yesterday (was able to confirm that by checking my computer's history). So I know they were still there then, and had been there every time I checked since that topic was posted four months ago. And today most of them are gone, or rather replaced by blank maps labeled "Entire Grid Undefined."

As explained in that topic, all those maps from NOAA's Climate Diagnostic Center can be found through links in the section on Climate Anomaly Maps & Diagrams at this University of Oregon page

http://geography.uoregon.edu/weather/#ClimateAnomalyMaps&Diagrams

Only the one-day maps are still there for surface temps and surface winds. The maps showing mean temps and anomalies over a longer period have been replaced by those blanks.

The NOAA CDC map room also has this statement:

These graphical products are not guaranteed to be updated on a regular basis. They are intended to serve as examples of our ongoing work.

I'd never looked at that main map room page before, just went straight to the anomaly maps instead, so I have no idea how recent that statement is. But it's interesting to find it now, when so many maps showing how unusual suface temperatures are have suddenly disappeared.

Unless they're just in a different part of the NOAA site and I haven't found them. Or unless NOAA is updating the site and they haven't added new links to their main map page yet. If anyone can locate those maps in a new location there, please post the links here. Right now it looks as though someone at NOAA, or someone with power over NOAA, decided to remove that information from the Net.


Editing. I found a Google cache of the map room page that Google had retrieved on August 31, and it looks identical to the current page.

I haven't found anything yet to explain why so many maps are missing.

[macllyr]

123. maps are still there

The map are there :

www.cdc.noaa.gov/map/clim/glbcir.quick.shtm

www.cdc.noaa.gov/map/images/fnl/sfctmpmer_90a.fnl.anim.html

(90-day surface temperature anomaly from Nov 06 to Jun 07)

Mac L'lyr

[highplainsdem]

159. Thanks, Mac L'lyr! The 1st link there doesn't work, but the second does.

And the link on the bottom of that second page took me to this page

http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/map/clim/glbcir.anim.shtml

and that has maps with a lot of data, but all animated. I hadn't found those earlier and was glad to find them, but they aren't the same as the maps available earlier.

I went back to the main map room, though, after seeing what was provided through the Animations link, and this time I checked the Daily Plots for Operational Data, and I found this page

http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/map/clim/glbcir.shtml

which explains they're now combining their maps into two-panel pages showing both the mean and anomaly maps.

Which is apparently why the older links didn't work...

Hmm.

There's still a problem with those maps. This is the link for the 1-day maps

http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/map/images/fnl/sfctmpmer_01b.fnl.html

and this is the link for the 7-day maps

http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/map/images/fnl/sfctmpmer_07b.fnl.html

Which again is a map with no info on temps, just the outlines of the globe.

That page has a link for a larger one-panel anomaly plot, at

http://www.cdc.noaa.gov/map/images/fnl/sfctmpmer_07a.fnl.html

and that again has the blank global map with "Entire Grid Undefined" on it.

So the climate data seems to be there, but only in animated maps except for the 1-day maps.

I hope they'll have this problem corrected soon so their own links will work and not lead to any blank maps.

[Raejeanowl]

77. Can I Still Say Chilling?

George Carlin was right, but the Earth is already calling in all the IOUs, and has begun the process of "shaking off like a bad cold."

[JMDEM]

80. Water barely expands with temperature

Water expands by less than 1% from (almost) freezing to over 100 degrees (F). Water expansion is a negligible part of the global warming flooding issue. If you don't believe me, try it yourself at home. Take some ice cold water, mark its level on a glass or jug, then heat it up to 100 degrees or so, and see how much the level has changed. (I wouldn't consider water temperatures much over 106 degrees, because at those temperatures most life will die, so flooding would not be the primary concern.)

Melting ice from Greenland and Antarctica is THE issue. And it's melting.

I'm a bit surprised that I haven't seen much discussion in this thread about the whole tipping point issue. One tipping point has been mentioned. As the ice caps disappear, much less heat is reflected back into space, making the problem much worse in a vicious cycle.

But a much bigger tipping point issue is probably frozen methane gas trapped in the tundra of Siberia. There's billions of tons of it. As the tundra melts it releases this gas. Methane is five times worse than C02 as a greenhouse gas (on a pound-per-pound basis). And as the tundra melts and releases the methane, the methane warms the atmosphere, causing more methane to be released. The old vicious cycle again -- also known as the previously mentioned "tipping point".

Another aspect that many people fail to acknowledge (although many do) is how fragile civilization is. Like nature, civilization runs on a very fragile set of checks and balances. When things get out of balance -- war, famine, massive human deaths. When people laugh off global warming, saying they'll just move to cooler climate and a higher ground, they just don't get it -- the whole of civilization will shake like a bowl of jello when these disruptions hit.

[Harper_is_Bush]

81. I'm not sure why you're making that point.....but since you are...

also consider that a portion (10% I believe) of Sea ice cap is above the water line, so that will cause levels to rise.

But certainly, the biggest concern about ice cap melting isn't a directly related world-wide Sea level rise.

the main concern is the feedback it represents. Less ice = more heat absorbtion = more warming.

EDIT: and that WILL cause more melting of things that cause much more Sea level increases (ex. glaciers & Greenland)

[JMDEM]

82. I'm making this point because...

To be credible, you have to have your facts straight. SEVERAL posts were talking about water expansion causing flooding. It just doesn't happen.

But YOUR point is very important -- loss of ice in Antarctica and Greenland.

Please read my whole post -- it talks about a lot more than just the expansion of water with temperature. With all due respects, you may have read my subject line but my post.

[Harper_is_Bush]

84. Ok. Nobody had those facts wrong though. And I read your post in it's entirety

the ENTIRE first paragraph, making up probably 1/3 of the post, droned on about how ice melting does not increase in volume much when it becomes water.

In fact, that POINT was the title of your post.

So, when I say "I'm not sure why you're making that point", that is the point I refer to.

Your comment "To be credible, you have to have your facts straight", is meaningless in the context of this topic.
Your comment "you read my subject line, but not a word of my post", is pure silliness.

We are of the same mind on this issue, I know. My advice to you is consider what your writing and ask yourself if it's relavent or accurate.

[JMDEM]

87. Of course accuracy is relevant

Unless you want people to discuss this topic as if they were Miss South Carolina. When that happens we are left wide open to attacks by people claiming we are idiots.

True science (that not bought off) is our best friend in this fight. (And, of course, Al Gore). We need to be better scientists so we can talk about this more intelligently.

The methane issue really scares me. Yes, C02 is (at this time, and by far) the prime culprit, but if it manages to release its buddy methane, then we have double trouble, and in a real hurry.

I am convinced that we are going to need a scientific solution to save ourselves. I think its too late -- I think we are past the tipping point. Yes, of course, we still MUST cut back C02 emissions drastically, and we need a massive push towards alternatives NOW. But we need more.

I don't know what that is. It all boils down to cost / benefit. If we could get giant reflecting mirrors into space, that would sure help, but the cost might be beyond belief. (If the rocket engines burn liquid oxygen and hydrogen, they themselves would create no pollution). Some scientists have been playing around with the ideas of giant plankton farms in the oceans to suck up the C02, but the impact on the ocean's environment is unknown.

I thought a great idea would be to push a worldwide tree planting initiative. But apparently that wouldn't be nearly enough. Apparently the plankton would work a lot better.

Sulphur in the atmosphere really reflects heat back into space. That is why every time a major volcano goes off, the Earth's temperature drops a few degrees for a few years. But sulphur has a bad habit of mixing with water, and those raindrops then contain H2S04 -- sulphuric acid. That is called acid rain.

[trekbiker]

157. ???????

"also consider that a portion (10% I believe) of Sea ice cap is above the water line, so that will cause levels to rise"

incorrect... water expands as it freezes (causing it to float) and contracts as it melts. Ice floating on water that melts causes no increase in the level of the water. The ice displaces the exact amount of water that it contributes when it melts, the level will not change. you can easily proove this to yourself with an ice cube in a glass of water

[KaptBunnyPants]

91. At least with Humans wiped out, there won't be anymore Republicans.

Never before has a species so deserved extinction.

[JTFrog]

95. But you realize that is what they want.

Bush wants Armageddon more than anything else. Either he's struck a deal with the devil or he thinks he will outdecide the ultimate decider and rule the heavens. The old skull and bones group seems fixated with bringing about the end of the world so they can get off watching it happen.

And * has another 500 days to make his dreams all come true.

[Doctor_J]

119. You get today's "Silver Lining Award"

:thumbsup:

[SlingBlade]

104. LEADERSHIP !

WHERE THE HELL IS IT ?

[frogcycle]

136. struggling for attention, making documentaries and holding rock concerts

leadership is available; humanity has chosen not to follow

[midlife_mo_Jo]

150. People don't tend to follow

leaders who say, "Do as I say, not do as I do."

When several leaders stand up and tell us what THEY are doing to reduce their carbon footprint, more people will listen.

[shanti]

109. wow

:wow: words escape me - all this in ONE WEEK!?

[nam78_two]

125. K&R.nt

[Mrspeeker]

128. More to come

[sofa king]

129. "If the increased rate of melting continues...."

I don't think the writers understand that if the rate of melting continues at this rate, that would be tantamount to a miraculous intervention by the Flying Spaghetti Monster.

Why? Because the rate itself is increasing.

It's like cracking the throttle on your motorcycle wide open, then comparing the speed you were going one second ago against the speed you're going now and saying, "if I continue gaining speed at this rate, I'll be going 50 mph in ten seconds." Then, when you look down in ten seconds to find you're doing 140 miles an hour instead of 50, you're surprised.

Don't you be surprised when people are sailing to the North Pole in 2015.

[screenplaya]

130. I say the artic is not melting fast enought! Just Kiddin'

[goodhue]

132. this is big news

but i don't see it picked up by american media

[hatrack]

139. Of course not. Now, if Lindsay Lohan were trapped on a melting ice floe . . .

Then there'd be coverage out the ass.

Otherwise, forget it.

[pitohui]

167. it's on weatherunderground

that's american owned, right?

jeff masters had a big thing about it today

(i guess that is small pickings, maybe, but where i live you got to check the weather every day so that's where people will see it)

[ElboRuum]

146. If the experts are stunned...

...why am I not?

[robinlynne]

151. When do we get to start fixing everything? I'm sick of republicans and corporations running

the world.

[Frisbee]

152. Quite possibly...

The biggest issue facing the world at present, and still almost nothing being done. Al Gore in the White House is our last, best hope for this global disaster.

[loser_user]

153. We need another Mt. Pinatubo

Granted it should happen at one of those isolated Alaskan volcanoes, but wouldn't that slow the temperature down?

[tabasco]

168. Temporarily.

The ash falls out but the CO2 will still be there.

[marions ghost]

154. when you think about the fact

that the atmosphere is only about 50 miles thick max (before you hit outer space)--

It doesn't seem hard to believe that we have created a greenhouse effect that can threaten the planet.

That seems like a thin and fragile layer of protective gases to me....I don't think the average person understands this.

[hatrack]

155. The whole thing makes me think of a scene from "Titanic"

They've put the helm hard over, they've reversed the engines and it's still way too fucking late.

The only difference is that with us, the helm hasn't budged and it's still "full steam ahead!"

:eyes:

[orleans]

160. i'm still reeling over this, so i'm posting again.

twice the size of the u.k. would be around 194,000 square miles
the ice cap was ALMOST 194,000 square miles


to get a local perspective:
mississippi=48,400 square miles
alabama=52,400 square miles
georgia-59.400 square miles
south carolina=34,700 square miles
totaling 194,900

illinois, indiana, ohio, kentucky = 179,500

you get the idea.

[NotGivingUp]

163. wow...that doesn't sound good. n/t