Rapist to be castrated

[riskpeace]

Source: Panama City (FL) News Herald

September 11, 2007
By David Angier
News Herald Writer

Bobby James Allen pleaded guilty Monday to several rapes and agreed to be castrated as a part of his plea agreement.

The procedure, the first of its kind in a Florida criminal case according to the State Attorney’s Office, has to be done within the next eight days. The earliest it could be done is today.

“You understand that this procedure is the removal of your testicles?” Circuit Judge Michael Overstreet asked.

Read more: http://www.newsherald.com/headlines/article.display.php?a=3323

[Sukie1941]

1. He can still have intercourse

Castration is not a great fix for rapists.

[soothsayer]

2. hmmm

[Heidi]

3. The procedure would cause "a decline in sexual interest and erection problems,"

the article says. What it doesn't say is what, if any, psychiatric treatment and behavior modification therapy he'll get during his 15 to 20 years (he's already served five of the maximum 20 to 25 sentence) in prison.

What this guy has done is reprehensible, but I don't think we do ourselves any favors if we pretend that castration without psychiatric treatment will "fix" this guy or protect any of us once he's released.

[Teaser]

I'm not convinced the compulsion is

linked to his masculine hormones.

He certainly doesn't need a usable penis to sexually abuse someone.

[Heidi]

6. Exactly. I wonder how much of this castration sentence is just to make US feel safer,

in the (all too often) absence of effective psychiatric treatment. From the photo, he looks young enough to still be physically capable of violence with a weapon other than his penis once he's released.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

21. It will help to some degree

He gets excited by VIOLENCE like rape. It's a sick and evil perversion. He's just not going to get as excited without all those hormones. For some, it might be enough to stop the violence, but I'm not convinced it's enough for all or even most.

[JerseygirlCT]

67. I agree. Rape isn't at bottom about sex, but about power

and violence.

You don't need even a functioning penis to rape someone.

[Ilsa]

12. The man who raped me already had erection problems, but he still raped me.

He kept losing his erection, and I realized at one point that I had to let his ego off the hook to get him away from me. I made some comment when he was frustrated and exhausted as though he had just ejaculated. He got off and left me after that and a few threats of violence against me.

I don't see this as the best fix, and possibly may only cause the rapist to need additional stimulation, such as through violence and humiliation, to follow through. He needs alot more than castration.

It was 20 years ago, and I have recovered well, thanks in advance.

[MissMillie]

13. I may be wrong, but if my memory serves me

(I worked in a prison a few years back... well, quite a few years back) that if he's in a PRISON, he has therapy available to him (and participating will help him in terms of parole, work-release, etc) but that his punishment is to be in prison and beyond that he is not required to participate in any services available to him while in prison.

Of course, that's my state. It may not be all states.

If he were incarcerated into a mental hosptial, that'd be a different story.

[slackmaster]

49. Probably so, but the statistics on repeat offenses by sex offenders are pretty grim

Therapy doesn't help most of them.

[ProudDad]

81. Wrong

only murder and DUI have a lower recidivism rate than "sex offenders" and "rapists".

Highlights include the following:

* Released prisoners with the highest rearrest rates were robbers (70.2%), burglars (74.0%), larcenists (74.6%), motor vehicle thieves (78.8%), those in prison for possessing or selling stolen property (77.4%), and those in prison for possessing, using, or selling illegal weapons (70.2%).
* Within 3 years, 2.5% of released rapists were arrested for another rape, and 1.2% of those who had served time for homicide were arrested for homicide.
* Released prisoners with the LOWEST rearrest rates were those in prison for homicide (40.7%),
rape (46.0%), other sexual assault (41.4%), and driving under the influence (51.5%).
* The 272,111 offenders discharged in 1994 had accumulated 4.1 million arrest charges before their most recent imprisonment and another 744,000 charges within 3 years of release.


http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/rpr94.htm

The numbers are probably better now since a few systems are actually doing a little therapy now, not enough but some...

[slackmaster]

88. Do you consider a 40+% recidivism rate acceptable?

Does that really sound like a low number to you?

Does the fact that murderers have a lower recidivism rate in any way contradict what I posted?

All of those statistics look pretty grim to me.

:crazy:

[jpgray]

92. "Therapy doesn't help most of them." There, I found a contradiction for you.

Shifting your ground to whether any percentage of rearrest is acceptable isn't a very honest debate tactic. Note only 2.5% of rapists were arrested -for another rape- within three years. That isn't acceptable either, but it is indicative that the behavior can be heavily curbed.

[slackmaster]

93. Heavily curbed isn't good enough for the victims of abusers who aren't "cured"

:argh:

[jojo54]

4. It's not the LITTLE head that needs fixing! n/t

[Tight_rope]

55. Exactly! n/t

[ProudDad]

82. Probably true

and in this egregiously brutal, vengeance oriented criminal-injustice system we have in the U.S. -- probably won't get it...

[Name removed]

5. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sabbat hunter]

7. rape isnt about sex

it is about violence in which sex is the weapon.

Will the castration stop this person from committing other acts of violence?

[Hugin]

9. You took the words right out of my mind...

Castration will probably only serve to reinforce his already warped idea of sex.

[MissMillie]

14. we have a winner!

you're absolutely right!

[PianoBlack]

15. I agree....

I honestly believe all rapists should be imprisoned for life. If not then they should be killed. I don't usually support the death penalty...but they deserve it's a crime that is not only physically painful but emotionally damaging far above and beyond that of any physical damage. It is unforgivable.

[pitohui]

48. this guy is an armed robber, so yes, it isn't about sex

armed robbers are willing to kill you to take some pieces of paper in your purse, so they don't see anything wrong w. a little rape, why would they? the rape in these cases is often just a matter of opportunity and whim

i think if he ever gets out, he will still steal, but maybe there is some chance the hormonal effects will decrease his desire to also molest the women he robs so the whim to hang around and assault his victims might not occur

it would be better if the dude was removed from the planet if you asked me, but no one did ask...judge apparently asked the victims if they'd be satisfied with the deal

25 years (well, 20, since 5 are already served) plus 10 years with an ankle monitor is not exactly a sweetheart deal -- and that's what he's getting IF he does the procedure

obviously a nasty, nasty excuse for a human being

i don't think we have to worry about making him angrier, he's already a sick predator who would kill you for the TV set on your wall...

he should be glad i'm not the judge, he'd never get out

the only reason i don't support death penalty for rape is because it leaves the rapist w. no reason to ever leave a victim alive -- he might as well kill the victim when he's done -- remember, we're talking about scum who will put a gun in your face over a freaking handbag

[Ian David]

8. Oh my god... he's going to become a Democratic congressman? n/t

[mdelaguna2000]

11. Good one!

[dbt]

10. Ask Mike Huckabee about such procedures,

n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

16. Disgusting, absolutely revolting, that in this...

century we are reverting to the kind of ignorance we had a hundred years ago about how the human body works and the torturous things we do to it to try to get it to work the way aome think it should.

Castration will help neither this person nor his potential victims.

[Kolesar]

18. A 21st century counter to 20th century lobotomies ... eom

[DutchLiberal]

27. Amen!

[Tight_rope]

54. I SOOO AGREE!

It's not about his damn penis. Rape is about power and control.

[JerseygirlCT]

68. You're right. nt

[IronLionZion]

17. You don't need body parts to rape someone

it's about violence, not sex. If he wants to hurt someone, he will find a way to do it. There are tools he can use. Having his balls removed is unlikely to stop him.

[WileEcoyote]

19. My daughter has a simple method of dealing with attackers

Avoidance is best. Especially those acquaintances and former dates who won't knock it off and keep coming around.

She carries pepper spray, but more important than that:

If she runs into someone whom she can't get rid of she simply calls her father.

End of story. Quick!

[RebelOne]

37. Self-delete. Posted in wrong thread

[pitohui]

50. um, this was an armed robber who raped victims, not a stalker

i don't think the armed robber will let you call daddy in the middle of the home invasion

i don't blame victims of rape for not calling daddy, i blame the damn rapist

[WileEcoyote]

78. No one was saying that.

The point is having existing family resources to count on. As well as education to the danger and awareness. Can't make a perfect defense but it improves the situation.

[David__77]

20. This is a barbaric and reprehensible punishment.

Apparently there is little separating the US legal processes from those of a Sharia state. I want to know the ethnicity of the condemned person. I think it's potentially relevant.

[slackmaster]

26. I thought choice was a good thing

He doesn't have to be castrated. He has the option of taking a longer prison sentence.

:shrug:

[David__77]

33. That is not relevant.

This is not a medically recognized treatment. I'm sure Saudi Arabia could say to an accused thief: "We'll chop off your right arm, but it's your choice: we could also kill you instead." I see little difference.

[slackmaster]

34. I view it as a punishment option, not a treatment in any way

I can't muster up any sympathy for the dude.

[David__77]

35. You think this is a deterrent then? Or it's just that punishing feels good?

What is the policy motivation for genital mutilation by law enforcement authorities?

[slackmaster]

40. I have no opinion as to its deterrant effect or how others might feel about punishment

In case you are wondering about my opinion of providing an option to have body parts removed in exchange for a shorter prison term, I think it's bizarre and possibly unconstitutional (i.e. unusual punishment if not cruel).

What is the policy motivation for genital mutilation by law enforcement authorities?

I'm not sure what's going on in their heads (or yours or anyone else's). My best guess is that they subscribe to the questionable notion that castration necessarily reduces the likelihood that a male sex offender will offend again in the future.

[Moochy]

56. Go figure that you'd be in favor

[slackmaster]

59. Please read replies #40 and #29

If you are actually interested in my opinion of the use of castration as punishment.

My point, which evidently sailed right over your head, was that many of the initial replies are knee-jerk reactions by readers who seem to think the castration was directed by the court as the only punishment option for the convict.

It's a real shame how often people on this board go off half-cocked without actually reading the material, isn't it?

[Moochy]

61. Thanks, I stand corrected.

And I stand corrected, I am guilty of skimming. I think its pretty clear that it should be unconstitutional, and its a reflection of the shitty state of that court that they would even entertain such a medieval sentencing option. But I suppose torture, maiming and now defenstration is part of the culture and it flows from the top.

[riskpeace]

31. Caucasian

n/t

[ProudDad]

84. If he were black he would'a gotten life without -- no doubt (n/t)

[mitchtv]

39. Welcome to the United States of

Saudi Arabia

[pitohui]

51. the ethnicity is white

i assume if he were black, he would be automatically imprisoned for life instead of getting this "deal" which does allow for him to be released in 20 years

[crim son]

22. Great, because there's nothing more harmless than an angry,

sexually frustrated man who enjoys injuring and humiliating women. :eyes:

[FuJun]

23. Take it All!

Disarm the pig!! Amputation of the penis and testicles would be more effective and appropriate.

[Xithras]

24. Castration isn't just about sex people.

Testosterone levels drive aggression, some types of euphoria, and have been linked to some forms of psychosis. They drive male sexual energies, and lead to increased risk-taking behavior. Castration helps to remove all of that. It reduces desire, period. It's true that a castrated rapist may still have contempt for women, but the process helps to remove the will to do anything about it. He will not be sexually frustrated, because he won't be sexually anything.

If the guy opted for it, I have no problem with the concept. I oppose forced castrations, but in cases where the criminal elects to have it done and the persons history indicates a track record of violent sexual tendencies, I'm all for it.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

69. Also, it wouldn't need to be done surgically...

Chemical castration with Depo-Provera can effectively reduce testosterone. Combined with counseling therapy, I would think this a viable, more humane alternative to prison.

[LisaL]

70. I also think it's a great idea. Castration would lower his

testosterone. Without testosterone, he is less likely to be violent. And if he wants it done, I see no problem with it whatsoever.

[2beToby]

71. If this were 100% true

then every MTF transsexual out there would lose their sex drive permanently. This is simply not the case. A lot of sexual feelings can be in the mind, and castration as an adult will not just make sexual desire go away. Reduce, sure, but not enough to absolutely stop him from wanting to have sex.

Although decreasing the testosterone can help, that is very iffy science. Why can most men have t levels at 500ng/dl (average) and be normal men when other men have that amount and are rapists? Testosterone isn't all about aggression. About 1/3 of women have increased t levels as well, and there isn't a significant number of those raised t level women being violent even though they may not be much longer than low t level men.

Especially because rape is about control and power, castration may actually cause MORE problems in these rapists. Without loads of therapy on top of it imagine the control issues that would spring up, whether they ask for it or not. I'm not a rapist sympathizer, but I don't want them coming out and causing a different problem either. Say, animal torturing.

To go further, but completely my own speculation here, I think castration is akin to treating a symptom instead of the cause of an illness. It's the brain that's needs help. Plus, not everything can be cured. Rapists have nearly a 98% recidivism rate--I'm sorry, but that's too high of a chance for me, my family and my loved ones. Until we have a bulletproof (at least 50% effective) therapy process and medicine, or some such thing, rapists need to stay where they don't have the chance to hurt someone.

[LisaL]

72. MTF transsexuals usually take female hormones.

And there are no guarantees in life. Nothing is bulletproof.

[2beToby]

91. Yes but Estrogen has also been

shown to decrease libido.

Bulletproof no, but if there isn't a treatment that's at least 50% effect we should really consider keeping rapists out of the public.

[Tesha]

25. Next, we can start cutting off the hands of thieves!

And the tongues of people who speak treason against
the government.

Tesha

[slackmaster]

28. The tempest in this teapot would be a lot more impressive if the guy had no choice

Anyone who hasn't read the article should do so.

[riskpeace]

32. It seems that his choice

is evidence of his lack of sanity.
I'd bet this was offered to him as an option and not just some out-of-the blue request.
It's shocking to me that a judge and a prosecutor signed off on it.
Folks in Bay County are a bit eccentric, but this takes the cake, so to speak.
He still has to do 25 years in prison as a gelded child rapist.

[jmowreader]

29. Great... just... fucking... great...

Now that he doesn't have Rape as part of his criminal arsenal, he has to resort to Murder.

Nice choice.

[slackmaster]

42. If they simply kept him in prison he wouldn't have either option

At least not against the general public.

[jmowreader]

85. But they CAN'T keep him in prison

There are at least fifty people who were busted with two joints in their possession who are waiting for this rapist's bed.

This is what we're going to do, we of the truly civilized United States of America. We're going to cut this guy's balls off and turn him loose upon the world. When he gets around to murdering nine or ten women because he can't rape them anymore, we'll sentence him to death and put him in his own special cage. And in the meantime, all those guys who got caught with a lid of ditch weed and a Pink Floyd record (the only suitable surface for cleaning weed) will have somewhere to stay.

[qb]

30. Isn't the state opening itself up to an expensive lawsuit?

What if he sues, claiming he wasn't of sound mind... wasn't properly informed... was coerced...

Lock him up for life. Period.

[militaryspouse]

36. ..

'"Testosterone levels drive aggression, some types of euphoria, and have been linked to some forms of psychosis. They drive male sexual energies, and lead to increased risk-taking behavior. Castration helps to remove all of that"'

Tha was the very same reason my vet said I should have my dog neutered.

[RebelOne]

38. Some Scandinavian countries castrate repeat offenders.

It's been an ongoing practice for a long time. Just Google "Scandinavian countries and castration." There's a lot of info on it.

[slackmaster]

41. Bloody Vikings

[killbotfactory]

44. Does it work?

[0rganism]

aka total avoidance of the underlying issue

as if one needed an erect penis to sexually assault someone. In 25 years, he'll be a free man again, with a whole new laundry list of control issues to work out. What then?

What are they doing to neuter Bobby James Allen's urge to forcefully control others? That's what I'd like to see.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

64. You don't need an erection to assault someone

but it tends to be the case that the act of rape - an act of violence against women - gets this guy excited. (I feel filthy typing this.) Once he loses so much testosterone, he will have far fewer sexual feelings of any kind.

[MrSlayer]

43. Fair enough.

Though I think death would be more appropriate and preferable.

[slackmaster]

46. Of course you think that, MrSlayer. It's your job.

:hi:

[MrSlayer]

63. I wish someone would pay me for it then.

I have to stop giving it away for free.

[Trillo]

45. Maybe it will help keep him from future rapes ...

He consented or chose castration, though it is troubling that it required a criminal case, for women to first be victimized, and a judge to offer it in exchange for a reduced sentence.

The critical question in this literature concerns whether testosterone violence relationships are causal. Little doubt exists that castration decreases aggression in animals and administration of testosterone increases aggression. Few experimental studies have been conducted in humans, but there is nevertheless evidence of a causal relationship. Olweus et al. (1988) assessed their finding of higher testosterone in male adolescents with high levels of self-report aggression using path analysis and concluded that testosterone had causal effects on both provoked and unprovoked aggressive behavior. One study that comes close to such an ideal experiment is that of Wille and Beier (1989), who showed that ninety-nine castrated German sex offenders had a significantly lower recidivism rate eleven years postrelease (3 percent) compared to thirtyfive non castrated sex offenders (46 percent). There is in addition some limited evidence that less drastic methods of reducing testosterone levels such as administration of anti-androgens and progesterone derivatives have some effect in lowering violence and sexual aggression (Rubin 1987; Brain 1990; Archer 1991). One double-blind, crossover hormone replacement study administered testosterone to male adolescents with delayed puberty and found that medium doses increased aggressive behavior twenty-one months later (Susman and Ponirakis, 1997). It could be argued that extreme alterations in testosterone are not a good model for the less severe variability found in the general population, and that moderate changes of this hormone do not significantly influence aggression. On the other hand, Loosen, Purdon, and Pavlou (1994) found that mild reductions in testosterone in men were associated with reductions in outwardly directed anger, thus suggesting that mild changes in testosterone can modulate aggression.

Testosterone levels are in part heritable (Turner et al. 1986), and it is conceivable that the genetic predisposition to crime may in part be expressed through the hormonal system. On the other hand, it is also known that environmental influences such as success in competition, the perception of winning, exposure to erotic films, and social dominance can increase circulating levels of testosterone (Brain 1990; Archer 1991). Clearly, links between testosterone and aggression are complex, and simplistic explanations of this link are probably incorrect. By the same token, it would be equally erroneous to discount the evidence for the role of hormones in influencing aggression merely because hormones are influenced by the environment. In this context, theoretical perspectives should take into account reciprocal influences between behavior and aggression and the roles hormones play in the regulation of arousal (Susman et al. 1996).

http://www-rcf.usc.edu/~raine/BiologicalBasisCrime.pdf

Rape appears to be part of a dominance society that evolved following the neolithic period, and seems related to suppression of women. For a an example of a culture that has held onto its culture of cooperation, see the Piaroa, they consider competition (the social root of dominance) as a spiritual evil. I guess it's nice that some humans have been able to maintain their peaceful culture.

Modern society uses drugs and the War on Drugs (testosterone in this case) to find its peace.

[depakid]

47. I didn't even have to read the link to know it came from Florida- or Texas or Ohio

[pitohui]

52. well they say it was the first time such a deal offered in florida

so call me naive but i did have to read the link

i don't think these deals are commonly offered, sounds like in the normal course of events he would have been put away forever without any chance of parole

[depakid]

57. I guess it's all the wierd things

Like prosecuting very young kids- and putting locking them up decades. I hear so many whack stories coming from these 3 states- that nothing really surprises me there.

The thing to worry about here is the practice spreading- and prosecutors overcharging or holding long prison sentences over people's heads if they decline to be mutilated, sterilized or some other such thing.

[superconnected]

53. I have to check my calendar... it says 2007 not 1007... or just 7

Now either the article or my calendar is off...

[riskpeace]

58. Your calendar is OK

It has to do with your GPS

[pretty_lies]

60. You're All Grossly Misinformed. Castration Is Humane And Highly Effective.

Castration cuts reoffending rates by nearly EIGHTY PER CENT. It's painless and undetectable (just use Neuticles(TM)).

Sending people to jail and torture for 20 years for sexual compulsions they can't control, to be certain they'll reoffend once they get out - now THAT is cruelty.



http://users.ipfw.edu/ruflethe/helpforsexoffenders.htm

Most of the arguments against voluntary castration are based on misconceptions, such as the common belief that it is a barbaric practice that has been used only in Third World countries.

The fact is that it has been effectively and humanely used as treatment in Denmark, Czechoslovakia, Holland, Switzerland, Norway, Iceland, Sweden, and Finland.

A 1973 Swiss study of a hundred twenty-one castrated offenders found that the rate of reoffending dropped to 4.1 per cent, compared with 76.9 per cent before the operation.

A Danish study in the sixties which followed as many as nine hundred castrated sex offenders, found that recidivism rates dropped to 2.2 per cent.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

65. Ahhhh, some facts!

Thanks for that!

[riskpeace]

76. He still has to do twenty years

And going to a Florida state prison as a castrated, breast-growing, child rapist is basically a life sentence.
He won't last 2 years alive in that prison much less 20.
Compassion.

[LisaL]

80. He agreed to it.

He was also warned about the side effects.

[BreweryYardRat]

62. I don't like this.

Chemical castration is okay with me, because so far as I know, it's not permanent.

But this?

What's to stop some jackass DA from browbeating an innocent man (probably black/brown, given the way the Florida injustice system works) into confessing to a guilty plea including castration?

Or some of our legislators adjusting the law to make it mandatory, not something that could be agreed on in exchange for a lighter sentence?

[midlife_mo_Jo]

66. It's certainly a concern

but I think it could be used judiciously with repeat offenders.

[sam sarrha]

73. testicals have not much to do with it.. what a con job

[LisaL]

74. Oh right.

Then why do dogs and cats get neutered?
If testicles have nothing to do with it, that is.

[The Stranger]

75. Unconstitutional.

"nor shall cruel and unusual punishments be inflicted . . . "

[bamacrat]

77. I wonder how they would do it?

Would it be chemical or would they just lop them off(:puke:). I wonder if he would get testosterone treatments to deal with the menopausal symptoms and man boobs? I'm sure most women would find this punishment acceptable. Hahaha

[LisaL]

79. Sounds like it will be surgical castration.

As for testosterone treatments, I doubt it, considering the goal of castration is to lower testosterone. I am not sure why the guy agreed to do it, but hey, if he wants to do it,why not?

[ProudDad]

83. Funny how these kinds of threads

bring out the worst of the bloodthirsty sick individuals here on DU.

-------

Kill Him INSTEAD! they scream in their self-righteous fog...

Cut it ALL off! they cackle in their mindless rage...

Lock 'em all up forever! they gurgle in their ignorance...

He deserves to be DEAD and off the planet! they yell in their sick rage...

-------

These threads always bring out the worst of the worst...

[FuJun]

89. Listen to you!

"bring out the worst of the bloodthirsty sick individuals here on DU.

-------

Kill Him INSTEAD! they scream in their self-righteous fog...

Cut it ALL off! they cackle in their mindless rage...

Lock 'em all up forever! they gurgle in their ignorance...

He deserves to be DEAD and off the planet! they yell in their sick rage...

-------

These threads always bring out the worst of the worst..."

I suggest you check that self-righteous tone. You did after all threaten to physically assault any CCW holder that may cross your path. You show more sympathy for a rapist? Well then, what is your solution?

[ProudDad]

95. I've already posted my solutions to the abysmal

failure of the criminal-injustice system.

Use the Search Function, newbie...

[colorado_ufo]

86. This is a multiple rapist who committed these acts during armed robbery.

The assh_le could have KILLED someone. He raped a kid on Christmas morning during another armed robbery. He confessed to the crimes without coercion. He is fortunate that 1) the legal system does not offer the death penalty for this and 2) that one of his victims' relatives or friends did not manage to kill HIM during the commission of his crimes.

Castration, in a situation such as this, is justified, especially when it is offered as a choice. It needs to be combined with prison time. Safety of the innocent public is of higher concern than this individual's rights. Testosterone not only drives male sexuality, it also contributes toward aggression and violence.

[Crayson]

87. Implant him with prostethic dog testicle

Or what was that product for castrated dogs which was about "giving them more self esteem" ?

[Deja Q]

90. That's the way the ball bounces...

:hide:

[ismnotwasm]

94. If I remember correctly

(I don't have time to look it up)

This doesn't work for sex offenders. Hormones are tricky things, and are produced in surprising parts of the body. He may lose the ability to have an erection, but will not be able to control the thoughts that led him to his behavior.
As much as I despise sex offenders, I don't believe this is any kind of answer and could lead to a dangerous precedent. What's wrong with putting him in jail for 40 years? His testosterone levels will drop naturally. Again, it won't treat the underlying dysfunction that makes him who he is, but I don't like the idea of sex sanctioned mutilation.

[LisaL]

96. What evidence do you have that it doesn't work with sex offenders?

All of you people claiming this-do you have anything at all to back it up?
It appears that castration studies are being done in Europe with what appear to be good results.
So, what are you basing your claims on?