Clashes break out at Venezuela protest

[Bacchus39]

Source: AP

CARACAS, Venezuela - Thousands of university students scuffled with police and government supporters during a protest Tuesday against constitutional reforms that would let President Hugo Chavez run for re-election indefinitely.


Police tossed tear gas canisters into the crowd of opposition students after bottle-throwing clashes broke out with a smaller group of pro-Chavez demonstrators near the National Assembly. Journalists estimated there were about 20,000 protesters, but pro-Chavez lawmakers said there were far fewer.

The students said they fear civil liberties would be severely weakened under the constitutional changes, which would allow authorities to detain citizens without charges during a state of emergency.

"With this reform, the president is going to control everything. His power will be almost unlimited," said 22-year-old Adolfo Rengifo, who marched alongside other protesters blowing whistles and shouting "Reform, No! Democracy, Yes!"



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071023/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_protest;_ylt=Ahsl_5E7a1EFEydOCF13axC3IxIF

[rockymountaindem]

1. Oh boy

:popcorn:

[movonne]

2. Is this Chavez or bush??? I get so mix up ....

[fasttense]

3. Something is happening here, what it is isn't exactly clear.

To borrow a line from the 1967 band, Buffalo Springfield.

"Which would allow authorities to detain citizens without charges during a state of emergency...

The National Assembly, dominated by Chavez supporters, is poised to approve 67 constitutional amendments that would give the government control over the Central Bank, create new types of cooperative property and extend presidential terms from six to seven years while allowing Chavez to run again in 2012.

To take effect, the reforms must be approved by voters in a Dec. 2 referendum...

Venezuela's non-governmental organizations warned on Friday that President Hugo Chavez's proposal to prohibit foreign funding for 'political associations' as part of constitutional reforms could be used to financially strangle pro-democracy and human rights groups."

Detaining citizens without charges - sounds just like the bush, which is not a good thing.

Government control over the Central Bank - a good move. It allows the people more control over the economy.

Create new types of cooperative property - a good move. Cooperatives are we the people in action.

Extend presidential terms from six to seven years while allowing Chavez to run again in 2012. - I'm conflicted over this one. In the US a president basically serves for 8 years, unless of course you are Bush Sr. It would allow him to run again, not make him a permanent dictator but it could lead to bad things.

Proposal to prohibit foreign funding for 'political associations' - a very good idea. It just might keep the crazy neocon "free market" idiots from tuning Venezuela into another Pinochet Chile.

I have my suspicions that the AP ain't reporting it all. They don't even have a source listed for half the supposed changes. And I found out about the foreign money in politics in the caption line of a photo. Why did they bury that? Hmmm, I just think there is something else going on in Venezuela that the AP isn't reporting.

[Judi Lynn]

5. The "Proposal to prohibit foreign funding for 'political associations' " is most surely a good idea.

It's ILLEGAL to do that here, yet _Bush has had U.S. organization pouring MILLIONS of dollars into those rabid political groups, even bringing the head of one of them, Maria Corina Machado, of Sumate, which organized a recall on Chavez, even was one of the people present in the Venezuelan Presidential Palace during the swearing in of the coup President Carmona, right into the White House for a chat.


If someone did that with a leftist political group here, you wouldn't be hearing the end of it any time soon.

[Rage for Order]

29. That depends

Obviously political parties shouldn't be allowed to accept foreign funds, but I don't see a problem with activist groups receiving foreign donations. I'd imagine La Raza, MALDEF, CAIR, and other groups in the US receive funds from foreign sources.

[Bacchus39]

35. its NOT illegal here, there are all kinds of foreign lobbyists here

or lobbyists working on behalf of foreign governments.

[EFerrari]

42. Isn't the difference that they aren't allowed to fund political campaigns?

[Bacchus39]

44. I don't know about Venezuelan law but

I recall leaders of Sumate were charged with treason by trying to overthrow the system of government in Venezuela. That is what the Chavezistas said. Odd, that a recall election is permitted under their constitution. So its not clear how you could be charged with treason for doing what is legally permissable under the constitution.

my own take is that Chavez believes he IS the system of government in Venezuela.

[EFerrari]

47. But we weren't discussing your "take" but what it is legal for

foreign agents to fund in both countries.

[Judi Lynn]

48. US taxpayers' money is also spent on anti-Chavez ads on Venezuelan tv. Odd, isn't it?

New Documents Reveal that USAID Provided $2.3 Million
to Venezuela's Opposition in 2003

~snip~
In fact, many of the same recipients of U.S.
government funds through the National
Endowment for Democracy (NED) have
also received USAID funding through DAI.
Despite the illegal withholding of names
on the USAID-DAI grants, one document
apparently was skipped, at least in part.
The name, Súmate appears on a grant
intended to encourage "electoral participation"
in the recall referendum, citing
$84,840 as the total grant amount.
Combined with the NED grant of $53,400 given to
Súmate in 2003-2004, the organization
that is now crying fraud about the recall
referendum against President Chávez, the
results of which have been recognized as
absolutely credible by the Carter Center
and the U.S. Department of State, has
received, at minimum, more than $200,000
in just one year for promoting its
attempts to remove Venezuela's President
from office.

Other recipients of USAID funds through
DAI which are apparent in the censored
documents include the organization
Liderazgo y Visión for its project, "Un Sueño para
Venezuela", ("A Dream for Venezuela") a
project created in 2002-2003 with the intent
of offering an alternative vision and agenda
for those opposing President Chávez's
administration. Liderazgo y Visión has also
been a recipient of NED funds over the
past few years. More than 6 organizations
have been given funding for political and
social formation and development in Petare,
a poor neighborhood in the outskirts of
Caracas, in the Miranda State. The work in
Petare and the more than $200,000 that
have been funneled into that neighborhood
in the past year, appear to have been
aimed at converting a community that was
traditionally pro-Chávez, into one that
supports the opposition. The recall referendum
results from August 15, 2004 show
the opposition gaining substantial numbers
in Petare, and Miranda state was one of
only two states in the entire nation that
gave victory to the opposition in the
referendum.

One grant from USAID/DAI focuses on
the creation of radio and television
commercials during the December 2002-
February 2003 strike imposed by the
opposition, during which the private media
dedicated its airwaves 24-7 to opposition
propaganda. One of the most striking aspects
of the media's dedication to the strike
was the use of anti-Chávez commercials to
indoctrinate viewers' opinions on
Venezuela's political situation. The USAID/DAI
grant shows funding originating from
the U.S. government for some of these
anti-Chávez commercials, collaborating with
former Fedecámaras President Carlos
Fernandez, who was one of the leaders of the
strike, in the project.

These new documents from USAID provide
evidence for a clear focus on two major
projects in Venezuela: The Recall Referendum
and the Formation of a National
Agenda that would serve as a transitional
government post-Chávez (assuming the
referendum was won by the opposition).
(snip/...)

http://www.bauaw.org/2004/09/yes-on-prop-n-bauaw-newsletter.html

http://venezuelafoia.info/english.html

[EFerrari]

49. Thanks, Judi Lynn. And if our myopia didn't prevent us,

we'd see the same pattern all across Latin America where BushCo has interests.

But, we all know Chavez is a dictator. Bush said so.

[Flanker]

52. Nope they are charged for recieving funds from the US govt.

nm

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

37. Ever heard of AIPAC?

Don't most of the people who bitch about Chavez also bitch about AIPAC?

[Flanker]

45. AIPAC gets funding from the state of Israel?

nm

[Judi Lynn]

59. It would seem to follow people who don't believe the U.S. should fund political groups

in one country, considering it's illegal in that country, should also fund political groups in another country, where it is also illegal.

Don't really get whatever point it is you're attempting to make. That's okay.

It's also illegal HERE for any political group to receive funding from foreign governments. You know that.
Why would there be any question?

[Joanne98]

4. It's another CIA funded spoiled brat protest! Taser them!!!!!!

[GeminiProgressive]

6. I agree with all of the reforms

except three.

I see no reason to expand to 7 yrs the term of president...HOWEVER, in Venezuela you can recall a president, here you can't.

There are many here who wished Clinton and Reagan could have run for a third term. I don't think any one person needs more than one or two terms. I think it has the POSSIBILITY to run to bad things...depending on the fairness of elections and the strength of a country's democracy and laws.

As for being able to detain people if there is a state of emergency..what constitutes a state of emergency? I am fairly sure our gov. can do the same under martial law and in fact, can do so now under the Patriot Act. STILL, I think it sounds like watered down Patriot Act and I don't like that shit fromt he Left or Right. I think overall the current government of Venezuela has been a progressive force for good, however we should never be uncritical of ANY government...we should be controlling them..they shouldn't control us.

as for gay rights, social/collective property, nationalizing oil and healthcare, communal councils, a not for profit central bank, shorter work week ect..I think those are all worthy causes that progressives should celebrate.

[Flanker]

50. The state of emergency deal has been fixed.

Article 337 used to say

Allows for the suspension of guarantees except the right to life, not be tortured or incomunication, due process, information, and other human rights

Now says
Allows for the suspension of guarantees except the right to life, not be tortured or incomunication, right to a defense, personal integrity, judged by natural judges, and penalties cannot exceed 30 years in prison.(well no penalty exceeds 30 years any other time)

Most notably the right to information was the only thing removed.

Neocons here might be disappointed ;)


http://www.eluniversal.com/2007/10/24/refco_ava_flores-propone-incor_24A1147885.shtml

[Judi Lynn]

56. Very, very interesting. Thanks for setting the record straight. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

7. Ha! It didn't hurt anything when someone snagged a taped conversation

featuring a member of the "opposition" discussing the student "movement!"

Who's Pulling the Strings?
Behind Venezuela's "Student Rebellion"
By GEORGE CICCARIELLO-MAHER

~snip~
But the contours of the opposition's hands-off strategy wouldn't be fully clear until the revelation of a taped phone conversation in which Un Nuevo Tiempo leader Alfonso Marquina spoke of the need to remain in the background, but to pull the strings regardless: "Let's mobilize all the kids We have a strategy as an organization Let's mobilize all the kids, because you know Stalin is our vice president here in Caracas Let's mobilize the kids from the Catholic We've decided that the politicians won't intervene, that we'll leave it to the kids in their natural environment. We'll give them support, stick them in trucks If I go out there, they'll say it's the politicians that are calling the kids out"

"The only thing that can save us in this situation is if something extraordinary happens," replies Elías, an advisor to RCTV head Marcel Granier, on the leaked tape. It's comments like this that lead the Vice President of the National Assembly Desiree Santos to argue that the political opposition to Chávez was "looking for a death" among the students, to "repeat the actions of 2002" in which pre-meditated deaths were inserted into a pre-fabricated media strategy to overthrow Chávez.

Santos continues: "We want to denounce today a campaign which intends to convince the country that these student protests are spontaneous, civil, peaceful, and democratic, but behind them there lies an entire conspiratorial apparatus. They are using these kids as cannon fodder..." It was little surprise, then, that when a student was indeed killed (but under circumstances unrelated to the protests), the opposition press immediately ran with the story, only later rectifying their erroneous reports that she had been shot by police. This convenient misreporting even led to the story reaching the pages of Spain's El País.
(snip)

http://www.counterpunch.org/maher06092007.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You may also recall, that during the RCTV "riot," the opposition students were invited to debate for their side in the National Assembly, then, unaccountably, (too hard for them, mentally) simply walked out. Some strong beliefs there, eh?

[GeminiProgressive]

9. I don't doubt that

many of these "student groups" and "unions" ar ebacked with right-wing money...but that still doesn't mean you should accept EVERY reform blindly. Like I said, i agree with 95% of them...but the ones I listed I would really like some good unbiased information on because I don't think we have all the information needed.

[Bacchus39]

11. do you think students have the right to protest?

do you agree with the proposal to detain people when an "emergency" is declared?

[GeminiProgressive]

12. as I said in my first post

by what I read in that article absolutely they should have full democratic rights.

[EFerrari]

41. Lots of democracies have similar laws for emergencies

like Australia , Canada , France , Ireland , Spain and the United Kingdom And it's covered in international law, too. But, since our M$M has been tasked with sliming Chavez, that is never mentioned, is it?

I don't see anyone stopping these students from demonstrating. Do you?

[Bacchus39]

43. yeah, its refreshing to see people speaking out about Chavez repressive policies

isn't it?

[EFerrari]

46. Nice try.

[Joanne98]

13. BWHAHAHA!!!!!!

[GeminiProgressive]

15. what is so funny?

I absolutely think whether you are right or left wing you should have the same rights? I don't see how this is a bad thing to think?

[Joanne98]

17. It's funny that they got caught. What else?

I'm all for defending people's rights but these guys are complete frauds!

[GeminiProgressive]

18. sorry

thought you were replying to my post.

[LittleClarkie]

25. How do we know these are the same students as in the article?

And shall we call left wing student protesters in America "brats"? Probably just as affluent if they're in college. Oh no, wait, we agree with them. So the rules are different.

[EFerrari]

39. Cf The Brooks Brothers Riot. You know what would be interesting --

to compare the photographs of the known Gucci protestors to this new batch. Come to think of it, we have them on video, too. They looked pretty funny trying to march in their spikes. Maybe they've figured out not to wear heels by now.

[ohio2007]

16. counterpunch dot org ?

any non op ede articles from MSM sites ?

[LittleClarkie]

24. I'd take VenezuelanAnalysis over Counter Punch

They're slanted too, but at least some living in Venezuela say that they tell the truth.

[LittleClarkie]

23. Got anything regarding the current protest?

That article is 4 months old.

And what would be wrong with letting the protesters have their say same as any pro-Chavez demonstration. Democracy includes free speech, does it not. One doesn't even have to agree with the protesters. But they have their right to protest the same as anyone here.

[ronnie624]

36. The article is relevent to the discussion.

No one is arguing that the protesters don't have a right to express themselves. In fact, the item in Judi Lynn's post, illustrates how the opposition students are not really interested in having a say. They just want to throw bottles at the police and otherwise create disturbances, that can then be blamed on Chavez and his allies by the pervasive 'opposition' propaganda.

There are photos of these 'student protesters' with their bottles and sling shots.

[Bacchus39]

8. yeah, they should just shut up and do as they're told

then again Hugo could just declare an emergency and arrest them

[GeminiProgressive]

10. exactly

if that's what that law means then I oppose it as well. The people are responsible for keeping a check on government..sadly here int he US that doesn't happen...I wish the people of Venezuela more luck in that regard.

[Rage for Order]

30. LOL

Yours is a rational response :eyes:

[EFerrari]

38. Attack of the Guccis -- what are the odds?

lol

[ohio2007]

14. the cost of foreign booze for frat parties is going through the roof

just remove the tax on liquor and many will lose interest in protesting for 'freedoms' ;)

[liberalsoldier5]

19. Good for the students!

And fuck Chavez. And the fringies who support him. n/t.

[MikeDuffy]

20. Why do people make a post w/o any substance or value whatsoever?

Do you think cheer-leading is worth writing about, let alone reading?

[ohio2007]

21. it's the 3 R's, "Reading , Riting and...Rule by decree"

That'l learn em good in school



http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6277379.stm

[Pastiche423]

27. Psst...

I don't think it can read.

[liberalsoldier5]

33. Because I can.

Plenty of DUers do it, you just hate my Chavez hatred. Get over it.

[Mika]

55. Poster forgot to add 'neo' to the begining of name. n/t

[ret5hd]

34. Can you translate something into Sanskrit for me?

:rofl:

[0007]

40. Careful now, Agent Mike might bust yore sad ass for spelling error.

as in south of the border.
Viva Chavez :yourock:

[LittleClarkie]

22. We are ashamed of the students.

Perhaps they should be "re-educated"

[Andrushka]

26. Interesting

how the article does not state which university(ies) these students come from.

Let me guess... :eyes:

[LittleClarkie]

28. Which university is the one you are expecting?

And what are the names of the other ones?

I want to google.

[Andrushka]

31. Andrés Bello

eom

[LittleClarkie]

32. Thanks. Here's an article

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news/2585

They mention the University you gave me, and iirc from an earlier article the same student leader is fixing to be active in this current protest (the article is a month old at least.)

But what about this other one, Central University of Venezuela (UCV)? Have they been mentioned before as being organized from outside or a bunch of rich kids?

[Flanker]

51. More or less a guide of the main universities of Caracas

UCAB, Catholic university private
UCV, biggest university public and autonomous (govt has no legal control)
U Metropolitana, private
U Simon Bolivar, public but "experimental" (meaning govt has legal control)

Public university is free, always has been, and private is pretty dirt cheap (when compared to the US). That said due to lack of supply all of them are havens of the haves. I once read a statistic (cannot verify) that despite the social strata E being 60% of the population they only represent 20% of the population of the UCV. corruption, skewed SAT like testing (when I applied for the USB you only needed this, grades were ignored completely), and access to early education means these institutions will remain like this for a while.

Obviously the govt is interested in changing this, but for now the pro-government groups study in newly created institutions or the universities of the armed forces (not to be confused with academies).

[struggle4progress]

53. Opposition students use violence as way of manifestation

Posted: 2007/10/24
From: Mathaba

Caracas, Oct. 23rd. ABN.- Representatives of the National Assembly received this Tuesday groups of opposition students who handled a document rejecting the Constitutional Reform proposal.

The route allowed by the authorities did not include the National Assembly, reason why the demonstrators decided to use violence against the Metropolitan Police, who protected the centre of Caracas.

In the centre of Caracas, some of the demonstrators threw solid objects against a squad of the police force.

There were stones and glass bottles directed to the police officers, who had to use tear gases to dispel the outbreaks on behalf of the demonstrators ...

http://mathaba.net/news/?x=568320

[struggle4progress]

54. Venezuela protest turns violent (BBC)

Last Updated: Wednesday, 24 October 2007, 09:37 GMT 10:37 UK

... Scuffles began when they tried to push through police lines.

Student leader Stalin Gonzalez said at least five demonstrators had suffered minor injuries, the Associated Press reports ...

<many diverse comments follow article>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7059309.stm

[Judi Lynn]

57. They're learning to work the cameras well! According to the article:

There, after charging at the police officers, demonstrators got down to their knees while television cameras focused them, which seemed to be an attempt of looking defenseless.

I noticed that in some of the photos from their RCTV extravaganza, too!



All right, Mr. DeMille, I'm ready for my close-up."

[Judi Lynn]

58. Some of their earlier efforts, during their RCTV debut!