Roswell incident not explained to Richardson's satisfaction

[douglas9]

Source: Associated Press

ROUND ROCK, Texas — If he wins his bid for the White House, Democratic presidential candidate Bill Richardson may be just the man to get to the bottom of the 60-year-old Roswell UFO mystery.

Answering questions at a townhall meeting Friday, a Dell employee asked Richardson about the 1947 incident in which many people still believe a flying saucer landed near the eastern New Mexico town.

"I've been in government a long time, I've been in the cabinet, I've been in the Congress and I've always felt that the government doesn't tell the truth as much as it should on a lot of issues," said Richardson, who is governor of New Mexico.

"When I was in Congress I said (to the) Department of Defense ... 'What is the data? What is the data you have?' "

Read more: http://www.wacotrib.com/news/content/gen/ap/TX_Richardson_Roswell.html

[Ian David]

1. Like he's said, Richardson isn't so clear on all that Science stuff.

"Are aliens at Roswell? Is homosexuality a choice? Why can't I put a big electric fan on my sailboat to make it go?"

Sam Brownback is like Bill Richardson's Evil Twin. Neither of them know a damn thing, except Richardson is Good, and Brownback is Evil.

But I'm impressed that Richardson used the word "Data." That sounds very Sciencey.

Good, Bill. You're so cute when you copy the grown-ups.

[dbonds]

15. Could you be more condescending.

[Demit]

17. LOL! But he meant it in the nicest way. nt

[Ian David]

21. Some of my best friends are stupid people.

Just because the guy's not smart, doesn't mean he's a bad person.

If anything, we should treasure Bill Richardson even more, for having a heart big enough to do the right thing, despite a lacking a brain big enough to understand why.

I just want to pinch his cute little cheeks!

[Ian David]

20. Would it make you feel better if I said yes?

Oooh...

I think the answer was "yes," after all.

[dbonds]

22. Actually I did get that impression you could.

We all have our gifts.

[Ian David]

25. Well, some of us, anyway.

Look!

I did it again!

:P

[seasat]

23. Wow, that must be why they made him an associate professor at Harvard

In 2001, he taught at Harvard University's Kennedy School of Government. He has a masters in International Relations from Tufts University. He's very knowledgeable in his areas of expertise. That would be governance, foreign policy, and energy policy. This is one of his policy papers published in the Harvard International Review. The article in the OP leaves out the rest of Richardson's statements. He used the question about secrecy surrounding Roswell to blast the * administration for their secrecy.

He also immediately released a statement on his answer at Logo debate saying that he knew homosexuality was biological in origin and that he misunderstood the question. He was defended on his mistake by Barney Frank who praised him for his work on civil rights for LGBT.

[Ian David]

35. Argument from Authority = Logical Fallacy. And BTW Dr. John E. Mack was also a Harvard Professor.

Investigative Files
A Study of Fantasy Proneness in the Thirteen Cases of Alleged Encounters in John Mack's Abduction
http://www.csicop.org/si/9605/mack.html

Which is just an example of why Argument From Authority is a logical fallacy.

Authority makes mistakes.

Such as when Harvard hired looney-bin Dr. John E. Mack that mentally abused his patients into thinking they'd been abducted by aliens and then exploited their stories for financial gain.



argument from authority
This type of argument relies on the identity of an authority rather than the components of the argument itself.
http://www.rationalwiki.com/wiki/The_Fine_Art_of_Baloney_Detection

[defendandprotect]

49. error

[LanternWaste]

60. Isn't the Harvard International Review a peer-reviewed journal?

Isn't the Harvard International Review a peer-reviewed and highly respected journal w/in its sphere of knowledge? :shrug:

[Canuckistanian]

26. OOo, you're not nice

Hilarious, but not nice.
:rofl:

[LanternWaste]

59. Because as we all know...

Because as we all know, asking questions isn't a very good way to educate yourself. Maybe he should have gone to Wikipedia instead and just looked it up on the internets... :sarcasm:

[IndianaGreen]

2. The fact remains that the government has not explained some of the UFO data

simply because it was not able to be explained away.

John Podesta, who served as Bill Clinton's Chief of Staff, and other reputable persons formed a group to lobby the government to release classified information on unexplained UFO events.

I am particularly concerned about the secrecy involving the large complex located at Area 51 and a newer complex in Utah. President Clinton added to the secrecy by agreeing to ban the public from Freedom Ridge from which one of the runways of the installation could barely be seen with powerful binoculars. There is currently a federal lawsuit in process regarding Area 51 workers exposed to toxic chemicals. The government has insisted in keeping all details secret, and has fought discovery efforts by the plaintiffs' attorneys, one of which is Jonathan Turley.

Secrecy is used not to protect the people but to protect government waste and inappropriate behaviour.

Clinton aide slams Pentagon's UFO secrecy

By Richard Stenger
CNN
Tuesday, October 22, 2002 Posted: 3:09 PM EDT (1909 GMT)

(CNN) -- One winter night in 1965, eyewitnesses saw a fireball streak over North America, bank, turn and appear to crash in western Pennsylvania. Then swarms of military personnel combed the area and a tarp-covered flatbed truck rumbled out of the woods.

Now a former White House chief of staff and an international investigative journalist want to know what the Pentagon knows, calling on it to release classified files about that and other incidents involving unidentified flying objects, or UFOs.

"It is time for the government to declassify records that are more than 25 years old and to provide scientists with data that will assist in determining the real nature of this phenomenon," ex-Clinton aide John Podesta said Tuesday.

A Pentagon spokesperson could not be reached for comment regarding the requests for information.

Despite earning little credence, cases of strange aerial phenomena that defy explanation abound -- whether witnessed by thousands of Arizona residents, commercial airline pilots or a U.S. president.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/space/10/22/ufo.records/index.html

[truth2power]

18. Thanks for posting, IG. Typically, the ridicule starts..

<sigh> I wish there were reasonable ways to discuss unexplained phenomena on this board.

Yes, there does seem to be extraordinary secrecy surrounding Area 51 and what sort of craft might be taking off from there ( "Clinton added to the secrecy by agreeing to ban the public from Freedom Ridge from which one of the runways of the installation could barely be seen with powerful binoculars." )

If you haven't already read this, you might want to get a copy of "The Hunt for Zero Point" by Nick Cook. At the time of publication (2001) Mr. Cook was Aviation Editor for Jane's Defence Weekly, described as "the world's leading military affairs journal".

Mr. Cook makes a credible case that the Nazis were working on anti-gravity propulsion systems during WWII. Although I wouldn't rule anything out, my hunch is that the US Govt. already has such a system in operation. Thus the reports of gigantic (size of a football field) triangle-shaped craft that hover over people's homes and are virtually silent. In fact, if you look at sighting data, you'll see that triangle-shaped craft are outpacing sightings of saucer-shaped objects. Those who think this is too "sci-fi" need to read Cook's book. What he says is truly astounding.

All of these people reporting such phenomena are NOT crazy. What about that craft (saucer) that hovered over O'Hare Airport last November, "before bolting through thick clouds with such intense energy that it left an eerie hole in overcast skies". Some say it was a lenticular cloud. But that doesn't explain its rapid exit, IMO. Whatever it was, it went down the memory hole. And that enormous triangle shaped craft spotted by that commercial airline pilot some months ago, off the British coast I think it was. That went down the memory hole, too. Strange...

[Yupster]

46. Another Clinton story

http://www.ufomind.com/area51/list/1997/nov/a24-003.shtml

I remembered this from the time so googled for it and there it was.

[Xipe Totec]

3. Very few know how much UFO research NASA conducts each year...

And the few who know, know that the answer is:


None at all. :eyes:

[Occulus]

8. But you're rolling your eyes because......? n/t

[Xipe Totec]

14. Read James P. Hogan - Code of the Lifemaker nt

[defendandprotect]

51. Think about it -- NASA has also been taken out of any concern for our planet -- !!!!

What does that tell you --

Over the last 20 years they've been crippling NASA's research on the earth because they didn't want actual news of Global Warming of Ozone Holes to be being reported by NASA ...

And, now -- they can't even concern themselves with the earth -- !!!!

Meanwhile . . .

Obviously, most of the UFO info has now and has probably always been in the hands of CIA ---
The Roswell incident happened when Truman was president and he just happened to have created the CIA.
Notice that when Carter wanted info on UFOs he went to Poppy Bush then head of the CIA . . .

and Bush told Carter that he didn't have high enough security clearance to see the info.


OK -- but there's nothing to see folks -- go away -- !!!

How dumb could we be to conclude that there is a "god" in the sky --
but there is no other intelligent life on earth.

In fact, it looks more like whatever that life is it has been monitoring us for more than 350,000
years -- and perhaps engineering our DNA . . ????

We seem to be hybrids, folks -- !!!

[tanyev]

4. Good luck, Bill.

Make sure you get rid of all the Bush cronies first, or you'll get as far as Jimmy Carter did when he tried to get information on UFOs from Poppy.

[ohio2007]

5. Jimmy Carter made the same pitch when he ran in '76, Look into the UFO

files and release them to the public.

he was elected.......and.........
<crickets>
To bad the internet wasn't around back then.


IF.... Richardson actually did get elected, you can bet history will repeat

[Peace Patriot]

6. Roswell, huh? How about 9/11? nt

[Progressive Friend]

39. Or JFK...

[Amonester]

7. The Disclosure Project - Home Page

http://www.disclosureproject.org/

"long before Roswell" story in the middle of this clip:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8285709939745631584


Full Disclosure is long overdue.

[arrested_president]

9. I've Always Wondered About The 'Phoenix Lights' Incident

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sONgzwxomLQ

the gov initially said it was nothing strange - but, admitted it was a ufo once out of office:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLUAhVkGmj0

it floated over AZ for 3 days and thousands saw and filmed it

eyewitnesses say it was miles wide

[IndianaGreen]

19. I saw that former governor on Larry King a few weeks ago

I thought he did a disservice by pulling that stunt at the press conference when he had an aide dressed like an alien. He apologized to the Larry King audience for it. He now says that it was a UFO all along.

Hard to believe someone that lied to begin with.

Now, Mercury astronaut Gordon Cooper had some tales to say along the subject...

What I want to know is how much of our money is being wasted on black programs at secret installations, and why is the government lying?

[jayfish]

57. From What I've Seen, I've Come To The Conclusion That

the first night was the real deal and the other two nights were part of a disinformation campaign intended to point to military exercises. The sightings of the first night involved a solid, massive object with clearly visible structural details. The other sightings were just lights. Some of the most compelling accounts (of this and other incidents) I've seen came from the ABC special "UFOs -- Seeing Is Believing"

Jay

[Algorem]

10. oops. a dude that wants to know the truth. get him.

[janx]

12. Right.

GET HIM!

:rofl:

[Jr_Samples]

11. Just when you thought we won the logic contest

Left wing groups who think 9/11 was an "inside job." Democratic candidate for president who thinks we haven't gotten to the bottom of the Roswell incident (we have).

Next think you know, a Democratic candidate will embrace someone who thinks sexual orientation is a choice.

Oh, wait...

[AntiFascist]

44. We haven't gotten to the bottom of the Roswell incident....

or at least the true story hasn't received much exposure. The government was testing glider aircraft that were designed to drop atomic bombs after being carried over the Pacific. The gliders were to be carried using high altitude balloons. They were using live, Japanese prisoners of war, of small stature, to test the effects of extremely high altitude on people. When the craft crashed, people found the disfigured bodies. In order for the government to cover up what it was doing, they created the UFO mythology complete with elaborate drawings. This has lived on through the present.

[janx]

13. Well he IS from NM, so the Waco Trib has to emphasize

the




aspect!

:rofl:

ROSWELLROSWELLROSWELLROSWELL!

[goforit]

16. Whoo Hooo!!! Richardson has my vote!!!

[edhopper]

24. New Mexico

and Roswell get a lot of tourist dollars because of this so-called crash (it was a secret army balloon with equipment to look for radiation from Russian A-Bomb testing called Project Mogul)
http://www.csicop.org/si/9507/roswell.html
So to simply say it's a lot of hooey would cost his State some big bucks.
So he gives a noncommittal answer full of ambiguity and no one is offended.

[janx]

36. Not exactly...

It's more of a side-of-the-road tourist industry: little green men statuary, joke signs at the ATOMIC MUSEUM, etc.

New Mexico makes a lot more tourist money off of outdoor activity (camping, hiking, hunting, fly fishing, skiing/boarding), Native American history, and the ridiculous balloon fiesta than it does off of alien theories (though those are funny).

There's also a lot going on here re alternative energy.

It's the Land of Enchantment, after all! (sshhh! Don't tell too many people...it's beautiful here!)

[edhopper]

40. I didn't mean to imply that New Mexico

is a loony State with UFOs as it's main tourist draw. It is a beautiful place with many wonderful features. "The Land of Enchantment" is not undeserved.
I was only speaking to reasons behind the Governor's statements.

[mvd]

27. Roswell has always fascinated me

But I'm not sure we have much of a better chance of getting to the bottom of it than 9/11.

[windoe]

28. We have free energy and antigravity technology

It doesn't sound as if many people here are actually familiar with the significance of the UFO Disclosure Project. I have heard about it for years but underestimated what had actually been disclosed on tape. There is a 13 part series on youtube full of high ranking people who admit to seeing extraterrestrials live and dead, on radar, and have witnessed them interfering with our nuclear program, plus the fact that our secret government has retroengineered 'free energy'!! My mind was blown to find that this project was finished in May 2001. What does this mean??? That we HAVE free clean energy and antigravity technology that is being kept secret so we can go to war over OIL???? I believe this is the greatest untold story out there, but naturally people are more secure in their safe familiar worlds and do not wish to think outside the box.
Government officials have been bullied and threatened into silence on this issue, and Dr Steven Greer's life and others have been threatened over this issue. Please spread the word and investigate this for yourself.

[immoderate]

31. Why would they keep this secret?

It would solve the world's problems and end wars and strife. I know the excuse will be that it will ruin markets, but it will open more markets.

On the other hand, there is an answer for everything, Right?

--IMM

[defendandprotect]

52. Power . . . power-over others . . . knowledge is power . . .

Also, among many there was racism -- or an alien version of it -- digust for this "life" --
and fear -- huge fear -- they saw them as militaristic though I don't think we can claim any direct harm from what we can observe?????

It would have interferred with their lines of control -- organized patriarchal religions, for one.

I think anyone who thinks about "markets" or "dollar bills" understands that these are artificial instruments. As some analysts have observed if we never had an "economy" based on bus-i-ness, if we never had factories, if we never had telephones with pens and pencils attached . . . we would have profited by not polluting our planet and we'd be ahead.

If we've had monetary gain it has only been at a loss of health, life, liberty, peace and planet.

The loss of nature -- the loss of ourselves.

[tesla78]

38. UFO Tech is the key to Clean abundant energy

Sadly, most folks will laugh and ridicule the subject as they are not aware of its implications. UFOs are very real, they have been reported by astronauts, pilots, and credible government sources. Only an honest open government will release the technical information that is currently classified top secret. Unfortunately, releasing said information is a threat to government power and financial systems. Imagine living off the grid with a portable fusion power source and traveling across the world at thousands of miles per hour.

UFO crafts are known to fly thousands of miles per hour, fly underwater at high speeds, and use a clean form of high energy which does not harm the occupants(believed to involve plasma fusion, vortex-artificial black hole, electrogravitics). France's version of NASA are currently working on a plasma UFO engine that replicates the characteristics of common UFOs.

[reinhardt]

29. It Was A Rolls-Royce "Nene" Jet-Engine In A Russian MiG-15 That Crashed The Night Before

Not kidding

[FogerRox]

30. What happened to the last rep who started asking qestions about that..

[IndianaGreen]

34. He died of cancer

He was a Republican, and by the life of me I can't recall his name. I think it began with an "S".

[defendandprotect]

53. Senator Steven Schiff --- no one in Congress has been asking any UFO questions since -- !!!

[Critters2]

32. Thank God! Someone is willing to tackle the important issues. nt

[Ian David]

37. If I were President, I, too would want a peak at the Roswell files.

And my public statement would not be, "I think that Project Mogul is just a cover story for The Stargate Project."

My public statement would be something more like this:

"While I think it laughable to think there is evidence of Alien visitation in the Roswell files, now that I am President, I am going to ask for a look. Because... well... if someone gave you an un-used lottery scratch ticket, you'd probably want to see if you'd won the jackpot. Or if you'd won twenty bucks, or even a dollar.

"The romanticized and fictionalized aspects of the Roswell story are a significant part of The American culture and psyche. And the real Top Secret work that went on at the Roswell Skunk Works are even more important, as they aided America though Vietnam and The Cold War, and in our ongoing Global War on Carbon today.

"I don't expect to hit the jackpot and find Little Green Men in those files, any more than I expect to find a Leprechaun with a pot of gold. But if I do, I will tell you. What I do expect to find are stories of brilliant scientists we have never heard of, and the brave men and women who flew in the machines they created. I will share with you what I can of those stories, but as always, you can expect that the government might have some secrets at a Top Secret military research base that it may need to keep to itself.

"Now, as always, I will take questions from the audience posted on YouTube, and then The White House Press Corps, starting with Helen Thomas.

[lovuian]

33. Well maybe after two democratic candidates have

interest in UFO's maybe the crazy UFO people have some basis for their questions

[arrested_president]

41. In Regards To Presidents Knowing

there's a little conspiracy tale that goes like this:


supposedly, Truman was the first to know about recovered craft and beings. after him, Eisenhower then, Kennedy

JFK threatened to tell the world so, they silenced him.

http://www.world-mysteries.com/doug_jfk.htm

Secretary Of Defense, James Forrestal wanted to tell and they threw him from a window

http://www.thewatcherfiles.com/cooper/secret_government.htm


i don't particularly endorse the links i'm sharing here - just giving some reading on the subject

[arrested_president]

42. These Are Supposed Crash Recoveries

http://www.burlingtonnews.net/ufocrashes.html


and, the nazis were building their own ufos - i don't know what technology powered them but, they are definitely real:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpCGemQ4ck0

the Haunnebu, the Vril and other craft

[arrested_president]

43. And, The 'Battle Of Los Angeles'

people were killed, even:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oQmbGMWlL7w

[defendandprotect]

54. I'd never heard that one before . . . 1942 . . .but I think goes back earlier . . .

Of course it does -- !!!

When Columbus got here, the native Indians were querying him about the space ships --
discussing what they knew of it and Columbus denied any knowledge!!!

And, naturally this remains in the consciousness --

I've heard stories that the US believed that Germany had captured a UFO and that they were profiting in some way from the technology. Persumably, this might also have been why they were so anxious immediately to have Werner Von Braun come in to head NASA -- !!!

[truth2power]

68. Nazis building UFOs...

Read "The Hunt for Zero Point" by Nick Cook. Yes, they were. Anti-gravity technology.

[Alexander]

45. JFK, RFK, Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton were all interested in UFOs.

The first two were assassinated, and the last two, while they promised to deliver crucial information about Roswell to the public, never did. Carter was stonewalled by Bush, and it seems Clinton decided "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em".

I'd be shocked if Richardson delivered. Something tells me nobody who knows this information wants it to get out to the public.

[defendandprotect]

55. Well . . . they also worked 24/7 to cripple Carter's presidency . . ..

and same with Clinton ---

finally, impeaching his penis -- !!!!

and Webb Hubell, whom he had assigned to trying to get the info on JFK coup and UFO also didn't feare too well -- as I recall -- !!!

[lovuian]

47. I really like Richardson on this issue

I would love to know too

[Carni]

48. This alone makes me want to support Richardson!

I would LOVE to know what the deal was with the Roswell incident after all these years! lol

[defendandprotect]

50. It's certainly not "explained" to anyone's satisfaction --

Not that these people are frightened -- but what a vicious attack on John Mack!!!

John Mack is also dead now -- killed when he was visiting England a few years back --
hit by a car as he was crossing a street.

Not ONE person was working on this issue as research -- hard to imagine, eh, considering all the talk of "loonies."

They couldn't tolerate even the lone John Mack being involved in these studies -- !!!

Actually, we have more evidence of UFO's than we have for any "god" or "Jesus" figures . . .

I think it is something like 1500 people a year in the US alone claiming to have been abducted by aliens!!!

Now, either that's mass looniness and someone should be looking into it -- or we're all loonies!!!


Btw, John Mack was working with Budd Hopkins a world-renowned artist, author, and pioneer UFO ...
and a very impressive researcher into these issuese -- when we are permitted to hear about them.

Most of all -- the right-wing wants these issues shut down.

TABOO -- don't talk about it !!!

[shanti]

56. they are NOT

about to let this information out. i remember john mack's research, but never heard that he died. if he was getting close to the truth, no doubt he was taken out. the shadow government at work...

[defendandprotect]

58. Yes, I was shocked to hear that he was dead . . . .

He was a lovely man and an effective teacher and I think he showed great courage in picking up this subject. I think Budd Hopkins had approached him with his case studies. He was open-minded, listened and responded.

When I first read about his death I accepted as an accident. I'm not so sure anymore.
There is a story somewhere on the internet describing what happened. He had been in England for a conference, as I recall.

[Phoonzang]

61. Isn't it common for Americans to get

confused about the traffic flow when it England? I don't know why they'd have to kill Mack when they could have just kept him marginalized.

[shanti]

63. he was getting too close to the truth

my opinion anyway...he was wellstoned.

[defendandprotect]

65. I agree . . . and I don't know how familiar you are with writings on this subject . . ..

and it's been a while since I read Mack so I don't want to misrepresent him -- but he had a different approach.

Budd Hopkins, as I recall it, was basically sending him "experiencers" that he had already worked with and interesting cases. I'm trying to think how to describe how Mack was looking at this . . .
???? First, in a hugely open minded way and maybe looking at it in a more spiritual way?
But, was certainly there with verifying these experiences.

Budd Hopkins is also very interesting -- but as I recall his feelings on this is that these experiences of abduction are of course real ...... but he looks at it as abusive to the victims and that some, he thinks, fall into the "Stockholm Syndrome."

For a long time -- Betty & Barney Hill being the first, I think -- mid-60's . .. ?
evidently the abductions included warnings about pollution of the earth and nuclear destruction.
Perhaps it became too late for warnings, but haven't heard about any of this lately.
TV seems to be shut off on the subject right now --
the last great series was the Canadian one . . . fanatastic cast ---- can't remember the name of it right now. Video stores have it.

In one of Mack's books, he was writing about someone who had repetitive experiences with alien visitations . . . and at some point she mentioned that she woke up to find an alien in her bedroom, at her dresser and he was trying on her high heels!!!!

The absurdity of it suggests the truth of it -- at least to me!!!

[defendandprotect]

64. It was late at night and presumably no traffic ---

And, as Europeans say, "American liberals and progressives have an odd way of getting assassinated or otherwise eliminated."

Seems also to be happening in Europe -- Dr. Kelly, for one.

Mack wasn't "marginalized" . . . there is great interest in this subject --
Aren't sex and UFO's the two biggest subjects on the internet?

Mack was a threat to them, especially because he was uniting with the UFO community and bringing it to university levels.

Can you imagine that we supposedly have never had an astronomer reporting a UFO?

We have never had scientists/academic studying the question of UFO's . . . ????

[Phoonzang]

67. Hm, I didn't know about the no traffic part

Who knows...maybe. I just thought he was focusing on alien abduction rather than the UFO phenomenon as a whole, so he probably wouldn't be as big a target as some of the whistleblowers out there trying to expose the cover-up by using documents. I frankly, don't know what Mack was working on at the time of his death. Could have been something big.

[gateley]

62. The government is obviously hiding SOMETHING - it may have been a Soviet

thing or one of our own abysmal failures that they're trying to keep quiet, who knows.

[defendandprotect]

66. There are so many witnesses to Roswell that you'd have to say the entire town was invovled ...

either in delusions or a conspiracy -- !!!

The episode began with two nuns seeing the two spaceships crash in the air -- there was an electric storm ---

And, the debris was widely scattered including on Matt Brazell's??? ranch.
He seems to have seen a good bit of the debris -- perhaps even seeing something of the alien survivors. Evidently he had a big spread.

The town lived under threats and intimidation not to tell this tale.
It was decades later that UFO investigators returned to ask questions --
And like a lot of other people still, some of these people were military and under military orders -- though some have come forward nonetheless risking telling the truth.

There seems little doubt that we are talking about a spaceship from another planet/dimension?
Which included living beings.