Troops clash with Venezuelan protesters

[cali]

Source: Associated Press

By CHRISTOPHER TOOTHAKER, Associated Press Writer
2 hours, 28 minutes ago



CARACAS, Venezuela - Soldiers used tear gas, plastic bullets and water cannons to scatter tens of thousands who massed Thursday to protest constitutional reforms that would permit Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez to run for re-election indefinitely.

Led by university students, protesters chanted "Freedom! Freedom!" and warned that 69 amendments drafted by the Chavista-dominated National Assembly would violate civil liberties and derail democracy.

It was the biggest turnout against Chavez in months, and appeared to revive Venezuela's languid opposition at a time when the president seems as strong as ever. Students promised more street demonstrations over the weekend, but no opposition-led protests were planned for Friday.

<snip>

Authorities broke up the protest outside the headquarters of the country's electoral council, reporting that six police officers and one student were injured. But students said dozens of protesters were hurt during the melee. The local Globovision television network broadcast footage of several police beating an unarmed protester with billy clubs.

Student leader Freddy Guevara said it was not immediately clear how many students were arrested, and he urged local human rights groups to help verify the number of detained protesters.

<snip>

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071101/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_protest

[LakeSamish706]

1. I may not agree with Chavez ruling by decree but I do agree with his attitude toward...

his country and people... That being said, I wonder how much of this protest was sanctioned by our own US Government? It is a known fact that the US Govt. was involved in trying to overthrow the Chavez Democratically elected Govt. in the past. Chavez stands up for both his country and his fellow citizens unlike the Bush Bots in this country.

[cali]

2. Who knows? It's certainly possible that there are

people stirring things up. I admire much of what Chavez has done, but I don't admire his changing the law to benefit himself.

[LakeSamish706]

4. I don't think his intention was to benefit himself... He changed it to protect against...

a US ongoing intervention in his country that was trying to steal his countries oil.. In a similar manner that they are doing in Iraq... Speak to the people that are poor and you will find that Hugo is there great man who has done nothing but good for the country. He was instrumental in writing there Constitution and proudly hands it out! In this country we have an Administration that is trying desperately to get rid of that pesky piece of paper...

[Flatulo]

11. I find it ironic that so many people haven't noticed that Chavez uses the

same tactics as the Bush administration to to justify heavy-handedness and erosion of civil liberties.

Bush has his 'terra', and Chavez has Bush.

[Socal31]

12. People are protesting a dictator that has left a brown mark on your nose,

so somehow it MUST be caused by us. So sad.

[BornagainDUer]

95. How'd you get the brown mark on your nose? Maybe having it

to far up.....

[Xenotime]

46. Agreed.

[LakeSamish706]

3. I am and will be a staunch Chavez supporter until someone proves me wrong.....

If you speak to any of the Venezuelan people in the lower income brackets, they will tell you that Hugo is a legend in their country that only means well for his people.

[Steepler0t]

6. I always point people to this video

Just in case any DUers have not seen what happened to Chavez that makes him so distrusting.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144&q=the+revolution+will+not+be+televised&total=157&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=2">Video

Why the elites hate him here and down there is obvious.

[dipsydoodle]

29. Hadn't noticed you posted that

until after I posted it below. Thanks for posting it earlier.:toast:

[rayofreason]

7. Prove you wrong?

It will be Chaez himself. Just keep watching.

[Name removed]

8. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Socal31]

13. Noone will be able to convince you.

Any evidence provided to you will be quickly dismissed as "US propaganda", "lies" or "Mis-translations." What a joke.

[bjorkfan]

77. How about all the Mexicans who would rather live in the U.S. than Venezuela?

[humbled_opinion]

78. Of Course Totalitarian Rulers usually do take care of the people..

Its the FREEDOM part that comes up lacking...

Get real.. how many (PROTESTERS) does your buddy Chavez have to incinerate before you speak out and then, I guess it may well be too late...

[Dave From Canada]

85. Don't worry, King Hugo is proving you wrong each and every day, with his creeping dicatoriship.

[Dave From Canada]

86. I'm sure King Hugo will be "President" for decades to come.

[barb162]

117. Take a look at the NY Times where there's an article about

university students who are against Chavez. The article starts out with a university student from the slums who is very anti- Chavez. He sleeps in different places every night so the police can't find him. I think Chavez means well only for himself.


Students Emerge as a Leading Force Against Chávez

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/10/world/americas/10venez.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[JDPriestly]

5. The demonstrators have rights too.

Regardless of whether it is Chavez or Bush or my favorite politician, people have the right to petition their government and to protest against policies they oppose.

Also, every people has the right to a government of laws passed by legislatures elected by the people themselves.

[Flatulo]

9. Wait for it... wait for it... heeeeere it is! The arrival of the DU Chevez Defense Corp.

[liberalsoldier5]

10. Hahaha... good call!

:toast:

[Warren Stupidity]

33. "Chevez Defense Corp" - no such thing.

On the other hand I support the people of Venezuela, their elected leader Hugo Chavez, and the Bolivarian Revolution that is bringing democratic socialism to Latin America. That does not mean I support everything the Venezuelan government does. I would prefer that the police did not have street fights with protestors. Then again I wasn't there and have no idea what actually happened.

[BornagainDUer]

109. Do I smell a fart?

[Peace Patriot]

14. The naivete in this thread about Bush Junta/U.S. policy in South America is

worrisome, because it means that Bush Junta and whoever succeeds them in the Corporate interest will be able to get away with the same backing of fascist juntas, and murderous plots and horrible oppression of the poor that has characterized U.S. behavior in South America for over a century, and never more bloodily and disreputably than under the Reaganites and their direct descendants, the Bushites. And if the Bush-controlled USAID/NED (our taxpayer dollars) funding of "opposition" groups in Venezuela, and its less black budget funding and even darker projects (also at our expense), succeeds in destabilizing the country, overthrowing its democracy and its Constitution, and killing its democratically elected president, these same naive souls will likely sigh in relief that that "dictator," Hugo Chavez, got what he deserved. Dirty rotter, wanting to run for a third term!

FDR ran for a third term--and a fourth!--and died in office in his fourth term. He was "president for life." Why? Because the people kept electing him--wanted and needed his leadership--and the Republicans hadn't yet succeeded in amending the Constitution to limit the president of the U.S. to two terms. In the last election in Venezuela, Hugo Chavez won the presidency with 63% of the vote, in the most highly monitored elections on earth. The Venezuela people have repeatedly elected him, with ever greater margins, despite every dirty trick in the book thrown at him by the Bush Junta and its fascist pals in South http://redpepper.blogs.com/venezuela/2006/11/venezuelas_2006.html
America--including an attempted rightwing military coup (whose first act, after they kidnapped President Chavez, was to suspend the Constitution and all civil rights), a U.S.-funded recall election (which Chavez won handily, with 60% of the vote), a crippling oil professionals' strike (sponsored by foreign oil giants), and, finally, a plot, recently hatched among the rightwing paramilitaries in Colombia, to assassinate Chavez and other democratic leaders in the Andes region, destabilize their countries and impose rightwing dictatorships on them once again.

With the Bush Junta having failed so catastrophically to serve corporate interests in South America, with their usual methods (kidnapping, torture, murder, chaos creation, bribery, blackmail, drugs and weapons trafficking, dirty tricks, etc.)--a failure that has not been limited to Venezuela but includes virtually the entire continent, where leftist government after leftist government has been elected (in Venezuela, Bolivia, Ecuador, Argentina, Brazil, Uruguay and Chile--and in Nicaragua to the north), a new (or rather concurrent) tactic has been devised to use Washington P.R. firms (the best liars on earth)--Penn and Schoen, in particular (Hillary Clinton's P.R. firm)--and USAID/NED and other budgets, to organize "democracy education" in Venezuela, meaning organization and funding of rightwing "protest" groups to disrupt democratic activities, such as the December '06 elections, and the National Assembly debates and coming VOTE OF THE PEOPLE on proposed changes to the Constitution.

A second coup attempt was planned in '06, featuring a phony poll by Penn and Schoen alleging that Chavez did not win the election, to be followed by staged "riots" the day after the election and a rightwing military takeover. This stupid plan--similar to the one in 2002 that the people of Venezuela put an end to--fell apart, with the opposition candidate publicly distancing himself from this plot (to his credit), and possibly also because the Colombian rightwing paramilitaries (the assassination group), that was to work in coordination with it, had been exposed. But the pattern is clear. The rightwing in Venezuela can't win elections; a significant portion of the rightwing wants to seize power anyway, and take back the government for the rich elite; and these groups are easy prey for Bush Junta deviltry.

Some of the students in the protests described in this AP article may be sincere in their opposition to the Chavez government. I strongly suspect that many have been manipulated by leaders who are on the Bush Junta take, and some are not sincere, except that they sincerely believe that they were "born to rule," and that they have a right to power by virtue of their privileged economic and social status. They are rather like Bushite "brownshirts." And some of them are thugs. In the phony "protests" that the rightwing organized for the 2002 coup attempt--orchestrated by RCTV--some of the rightwing protesters shot and killed Chavez protesters. Their purpose apparently was to create the kind of chaos and instability that would justify the coup. RCTV used the footage of these shootings to make it appear that it was the Chavistas who were shooting people. See the Irish filmmakers' documentary "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised," available at www.axisoflogic.com. It is undeniable that it was coup supporters who were killing people, and that RCTV was involved in deliberate deception of the public, in support of the coup attempt.

These students reportedly cried, "Freedom! Freedom!"--but what freedom would there be if the rightwing coup in 2002 had succeeded? We know what rightwing leaders do in South America, when they gain power, always illegitimately. They chainsaws union organizers and throw their body parts into mass graves. They throw leftists out of airplanes. They slaughter whole villages of the indigenous. And, in Venezuela, they immediately shut down the Constitution, the National Assembly and the courts--the preliminaries to atrocity. And how is Chavez curtailing their "freedom"? By running for a third term? By PROPOSING changes to the Constitution, that are argued in the National Assembly, and VOTED ON by all Venezuelans? By using his popularity to benefit the poor?

It sounds like a phony cry to me. Kind of like the way Bush uses "freedom." Or Rumsfeld (freedom = the freedom to loot). What freedom is being denied to these protesters? (And do we know the whole story of how this protest turned into a melee? Even AP reports that more police were injured than protesters.)

Also, I have seen such incredibly bad, twisted, propagandistic journalism from the Associated Press on the South American left, and on Chavez in particular, that I don't trust a word they write about it. They are unreliable. All of their facts should be questioned, including the number of people in this protest and who they were. AP portrays this protest as an honest expression of the people who participated. But was it? Knowing what I know about Bush and the USAID/NED and Penn & Schoen, I have my doubts. And I certainly wouldn't trust AP on this subject. Their coverage of Venezuelan issues has been hardly better than that of RCTV, which reversed the truth, and lied to and deceived its viewers.

Any DUer who trusts AP, or our other war profiteering corporate news monopolies, at this point, deserves to be called naive. I mean, how often do you have to be lied to, before you become skeptical and begin reading these so-called "news" articles as the malevolent half-fictions that they are? How can you trust them after the Iraq War? How can you trust them after Florida 2000? How can you trust them after "trade secret" Bushite corporate controlled vote counting--a subject you will never hear about from them? How can you trust them after decades of lies, and coverups of the most heinous U.S. crimes, in Latin America? Are you not aware how AP lies for our corporate rulers and our war profiteers?

How can DUers be that naive? This thread should be an attempt to deconstruct this AP article, and to consult other sources, to try to figure out what really happened. It could be true that "tens of thousands" of protesters marched against Constitutional proposals (that people will be voting on). But how can you just presume that it is true? And how can you buy into the Bush State Department line that Chavez is a "dictator," because police in Caracas beat up some protesters (if they did)? Was Bill Clinton a "dictator" because of the bashings that Seattle police and Washington state troopers gave to thousands of anti-globalisation protesters in 1999? I would say Clinton bears some responsibility, but not that he was a "dictator." And how different is Chavez running for a third term from the nepotism of Hillary Clinton now running for president? And how is it different from FDR running for FOUR terms?

AP articles are based on certain corporate-propaganda assumptions that need to be challenged. One of them is hostility to the huge numbers of Venezuelans who support the Chavez government, which has something like a 70% approval rating! When they promote the fascist/corporate line that Chavez a "dictator," they are insulting all those people and calling them stupid sheep, who would repeatedly vote for and support a "dictator." Their contempt for democracy is palpable. They rarely report on Chavez's huge popularity, and the benefits of his policies--which have been enormous, both in Venezuela and the region.

Take a look at just the front page of today's www.venezuelanalysis.com, to comprehend what AP does NOT cover about Venezuela. Never mentions. Never tells you. It's a web site that is sympathetic to Bolivarian Revolution--a refreshing antidote to rightwing/corporate propaganda--and presents a lot of factual information and well-written, well-considered opinion. Get informed! Don't repeat Bushite lines and patterns of thought. And don't trust AP's facts or framing.


-------------------------

For more on Penn & Schoen, and USAID/NED, roles in rightwing Venezuelan coup attempts:

http://redpepper.blogs.com/venezuela/2006/11/venezuelas_2006.html
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=11471
http://www.narconews.com/Issue34/article1046.html
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Penn,_Schoen_and_Berland_Associates

[cali]

15. I hate to break this to you but

I'm aware of what's been going on, and I still find Chavez' latest moves troubling. I'd suggest that anyone who doesn't, is blinded by bias.

Also, you've used sources with an extreme bias including zmag and a blog.

[CRH]

52. Are you aware the funding for these protests are from the CIA front, NED. ...

Are you aware there was a meeting between 'the opposition' and Madeline Albright and Paul Wolfowitz and that spelled out in those meetings, recommendations to cause civil disruption, infra structure terrorism, and more.

snip

October 24- In a meeting held in Prague, senior Unites States officials gave green light for a plan for acts of sabotage against the constitutional reform in Venezuela. Carolus Wimmer, Latin American Parliament member (section Venezuela), denounced the meeting which was attended by:
• Paul Wolfowitz, ex Deputy Secretary of Defense;

• Madeleine Albright, ex United States Secretary of State;

• Aljaksandr Milinkeviv

• Michaellle Jean and

• Humberto Celli Gerbasi, a high profile member of the politcal party Acción Democrática (AD).
The meeting took place in Prague, Czech Republic, on October 7, 8 and 9.

The operations approved by the US officials consist of the following anti-government actions:
• Institute legal proceedings at the Supreme Court calling the Constitutional Reform a political coup;

• Foster social upheaval;

• Acts of economic sabotage and sabotage against infrastructure, persisting in damaging the food supply by disrupting the transport and delivery chain;

• Trigger a military coup with all possible means, using Columbian paramilitary forces infiltrated in Venezuela.

snip end excerpt link below

http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/printer_25394.sht...

if the above link does not work on your computer, use the link below, the article is on the opening page

http://axisoflogic.com/

Up against never ending external subversion from a stated enemy, Chavez has been far less aggressive than the same actions would be treated in the US. Imagine if the Iran Secret Service were to openly fund the above tactics in the United States. What do you think would be the response? Which sections of the US Patriot Act do you think would be used, and would the perpetrators even receive a trail?

edit: provide alternative link imformation

[hack89]

75. What is the original source of this story?

are there any collaborating stories from other sources?

[CRH]

89. Original Source --

Senior US Officials give go-ahead for sabotage operations against constitutional reform in Venezuela
By Jesús Moreno, Caracas; Translated for Axis of Logic by Iris Buehler* Tlaxcala. Revised by Les Blough
Oct 26, 2007, 10:46

Original Source (in Spanish): Funcionarios de EEUU dan visto bueno a operaciones contra Reforma (October 24, 2007)

Several sources place Albright and Wolfowitz at the Prague location at the same time but none that I have found confirm the information the above author has presented. I'll continue to browse and if I locate other stories I will PM the links.

[BornagainDUer]

102. Point me at one of your posts about finding what the CIA's

doing in Venezuela troubling cali. Show me a thread or a comment where you have come out in support of Chavez with something other than self-serving platitudes.

Go ahead give me some examples.

[nick303]

115. Re:

Some of the students in the protests described in this AP article may be sincere in their opposition to the Chavez government. I strongly suspect that many have been manipulated by leaders who are on the Bush Junta take, and some are not sincere, except that they sincerely believe that they were "born to rule," and that they have a right to power by virtue of their privileged economic and social status. They are rather like Bushite "brownshirts." And some of them are thugs

So in other words, it's obv. that legitimate disagreement is not possible

[Vidar]

16. So Chavez broke up aa demonstration paid for by our invisible

"black ops" budget. Bravo Chavez!

[cali]

19. I'm sorry, but even if this demonstration was instigated by a

U.S black ops operation, hundreds were involved in it who likely weren't part of any black op. And Chavez is making some very autocratic moves. But you hardcore chavistas won't entertain that he's behaving in an undemocratic way no matter what. I honestly believe that some of you would make excuses if people started being disappeared in Venezuela. If people had been killed in this crack down, you'd cheer. Mind boggling.

No, I'm not saying Chavez will start 'disappearing' his opposition. On the balance, I think he's done far more good than bad, but the moves he's made lately do not inspire confidence- and they shouldn't.

[ronnie624]

25. You must have missed this part:

"Students hurled rocks and bottles, and a few lifted up sections of metal barricades and thrust them against police holding riot shields. Students retreated later when police fired plastic bullets."

I suppose that in Venezuela, just like in most other countries, you forfeit your right to 'protest' when you attack the police.

[cali]

27. I'm not defending the students actions.

I am suggesting caution is warranted by Chavez' recent proposals. And I'm saying we just don't know enough to assume all those in this protest are members of a black ops.

[ronnie624]

38. Actually, you said considerably more than that.

You set up a hypothetical situation, in which Venezuelan protesters were killed by police, and then chastised the Chavez defenders on DU for cheering the deaths. It's a round about way of attacking personally, those who defend Chavez, without having to address the facts. It implies that those who support Chavez are hypocrites who support violence.

In fact, one of the hallmarks of the Bolivarian Revolution, is its devotion to nonviolence, and this is what many find so attractive about the movement. It promotes social justice through legal channels, hence the fact that Venezuelans will vote on the very proposals that fill you with such 'caution' and 'concern'.

[Flatulo]

72. If you think that rubber bullets are non-violent, please research the topic. nt

[ronnie624]

82. 'Researching' rubber bullets

would offer no information about the characteristics of the populist movements in Latin America.

The fact of the matter is, rubber bullets are used by police forces in countries throughout the world to subdue rioters. These Venezuelan 'protesters' were attacking the police, a fact that even the AP saw fit to mention.

I would tell you to research the history of the economic status quo in Latin America, but clearly, absorbing information is not your purpose here.

[Flatulo]

83. The use of rubber bullets is central to this discussion.

Their use in crowd control is becoming universally condemned. If Boosh used them folks would be apoplectic, and rightly so. When the Israelis use them, the condemnation is loud and clear, as it should be.

Why should Chevez' government get a pass?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

26. Of course they'd make excuses.

Some of them already make the same fucking excuses for Che.

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Flatulo]

97. I thought they were our 'black ops' guys?

At least you said they were when you posted this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3051044&mesg_id=3051308

Now they're rich upper class assholes. Which is it? Do you really think that killing protesters is justified based on their income bracket? Would you support the killing of protestors in the US because you disagree with their positions?

If you do, then you are one scary dude. I hope rational people do not visit this forum and see your posts. They do not represent any democratic values that I am aware of.

[BornagainDUer]

108. Flatulence you got the wrong link, I'm not Vidar.

:rofl:

[Name removed]

96. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Flatulo]

76. Can you post some supporting data that this particular protest

was paid for by the US govenment?

If Chavez was elected with 70% of the vote, isn't at at least possible that the remaining 30% do not support him?

[fasttense]

17. Didn't the AP, and American corporate media, paint Pinochet as a freedom fighter too?

All I ever heard about Pinochet and his dictatorial takeover of Chile was that he was bringing back freedom to Chile. It of course wasn't true. I don't believe the AP's line that these protesters are freedom fighters.

"The amendments would give the government control over the Central Bank, create new types of cooperative property, allow authorities to detain citizens without charge during a state of emergency and extend presidential terms from six to seven years while allowing Chavez to run again in 2012.

To take effect, the reforms must be approved by voters in a Dec. 2 referendum. Lawmakers are expected to give final approval to the amendments on Friday during a special congressional session.

Opposition parties, human rights groups and representatives of the Roman Catholic Church fear civil liberties would be severely weakened under the constitutional changes."

Buried under 11 paragraphs I found the above information. The first sentence tells you why the neocons are using the Catholic Church to create dissent. Yet the reforms have to be approved by the people of Venezuela. How can that be undemocratic? Allowing the people to vote is taking away their freedom? I know elections can be rigged but if he is the dictator the AP is representing, he would not allow for a vote.

Do you really believe the Catholic Church is fighting for freedom in Venezuela? The church loved Hitler and slavery. Some priests assisted with torture in Argentina. The cover up of pedophilia in the church did not promote human rights. The church's record on civil rights is very spotty to say the least.

Then there is this little gem hidden in the 99th photo caption:

"President Hugo Chavez's proposal to prohibit foreign funding for 'political associations' as part of constitutional reforms could be used to financially strangle pro-democracy and human rights groups."

That proposal would curtail some of the CIA's and the Catholic Church's power to stir up opposition to Chavez.

I'm not sold on the AP's interpretation of what is happening in Venezuela. It sounds too much like the neocon's plans for Pinochet in Chile.

We have to get as good as USSR citizens were at identifying propaganda and reading between the lines.

[Flatulo]

18. Funny you should mention that...

> We have to get as good as USSR citizens were at identifying propaganda and reading between the lines.

My colleagues from the former USSR are among the most troubled by Chavez' moves.

[1932]

116. Are they in the oil business?

[robcon]

20. Troops clash with Venezuelan protesters

Source: AP

Soldiers used tear gas, plastic bullets and water cannons to scatter tens of thousands who massed Thursday to protest constitutional reforms that would permit Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez to run for re-election indefinitely.

Led by university students, protesters chanted "Freedom! Freedom!" and warned that 69 amendments drafted by the Chavista-dominated National Assembly would violate civil liberties and derail democracy.

It was the biggest turnout against Chavez in months, and appeared to revive Venezuela's languid opposition at a time when the president seems as strong as ever. Students promised more street demonstrations over the weekend, but no opposition-led protests were planned for Friday.

"This is a dictatorship masked as democracy," said Jorge Rivas, an 18-year-old student. "Chavez wants our country to be like Cuba, and we're not going to allow that to occur."

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071101/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_protest

---

Busting up student demonstrators is Chavez' stock-in-trade, learned from his master, Castro.

[fasttense]

21. You are certainly trusting in the AP's interpretation of the protests.

All I ever heard about Pinochet and his dictatorial takeover of Chile was that he was bringing back freedom to Chile. It of course wasn't true. I don't believe the AP's line that these protesters are freedom fighters either.

"The amendments would give the government control over the Central Bank, create new types of cooperative property, allow authorities to detain citizens without charge during a state of emergency and extend presidential terms from six to seven years while allowing Chavez to run again in 2012.

To take effect, the reforms must be approved by voters in a Dec. 2 referendum. Lawmakers are expected to give final approval to the amendments on Friday during a special congressional session.

Opposition parties, human rights groups and representatives of the Roman Catholic Church fear civil liberties would be severely weakened under the constitutional changes."

Buried under 11 paragraphs I found the above information. The first sentence tells you why the neocons are using the Catholic Church to create dissent. Yet the reforms have to be approved by the people of Venezuela. How can that be undemocratic? Allowing the people to vote is taking away their freedom? I know elections can be rigged but if he is the dictator the AP is representing, he would not allow for a vote.

Do you really believe the Catholic Church is fighting for freedom in Venezuela? The church loved Hitler and slavery. Some priests assisted with torture in Argentina. The cover up of pedophilia in the church did not promote human rights. The church's record on civil rights is very spotty to say the least.

Then there is this little gem hidden in the 99th photo caption:

"President Hugo Chavez's proposal to prohibit foreign funding for 'political associations' as part of constitutional reforms could be used to financially strangle pro-democracy and human rights groups."

That proposal would curtail some of the CIA's and the Catholic Church's power to stir up opposition to Chavez.

I'm not sold on the AP's interpretation of what is happening in Venezuela. It sounds too much like the neocon's plans for Pinochet in Chile.

We have to get as good as USSR citizens were at identifying propaganda and reading between the lines.

[cali]

22. sorry. Propaganda aside- and I recognize that it exists, if

this bothers you when bushco does it, it should bother you when Chavez does it too:

"allow authorities to detain citizens without charge during a state of emergency"

And if bushco pushed something through enabling him to run again, you'd be howling.

[Buzz Clik]

23. Lies! Lies, I tell you! Chavez is infallible.

[Teaser]

24. He can't be wrong. It's in the Bible. Or the Koran. Or Something.

There is one God and Chavez is his prophet.

[Buzz Clik]

30. No, I think it goes like this:

"There is no god, but if there were, Chavez would be his/her prophet."

[Bacchus39]

32. it is blasphemy to criticize Chavez

n/t

[bjorkfan]

79. Unless Chavez was against abortion, which would be the unpardonable sin.

[Buzz Clik]

80. Sort of the anti-Pope? Interesting concept.

[dipsydoodle]

28. Sounds like the usual old tripe

which AP pick up from the Venezualan right wing media who make Fux News look really tame.

Picture comes over differently if you check out Prensa Latina :
Caracas, Nov 1 (Prensa Latina) Venezuelan security authorities denounced the existence of a destabilizing agenda by the opposition, as part of actions against the constitutional reform.

Tarek el Aissami, deputy Interior Minister for Citizen's Security, referred to the events that took place in on Wednesday in the state of Tachira, where several police officers were wounded.

Col. Heberth Aguilar, the police commander in that state, said violence broke out during a student march against the constitutional reform.

Aguilar said objects were thrown at the police officers, ten of whom were wounded, including the police chief.

http://www.plenglish.com.mx/article.asp?ID={B9084190-24EE-49BB-88E6-D3C1D5462997}&language=EN

To understand more fully the lies and deceipt their media are capable of using I suggest you watch the whole of The Revolution Will Not be Televised which was made by an independant Irish film crew:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

[cali]

31. I'll just repeat myself and repost::

sorry. Propaganda aside- and I recognize that it exists, if
this bothers you when bushco does it, it should bother you when Chavez does it too:

"allow authorities to detain citizens without charge during a state of emergency"

And if bushco pushed something through enabling him to run again, you'd be howling.

[Flanker]

34. That is quite a bizarre interpretation by the AP

Besides you already have that and that is without declaring a state of emergency.

[cali]

36. Sorry, I don't understand your point.

It's simple: do you think it's a good thing for ANY gov't to have the power to declare a state of emergency and have the authority to arrest and detain without bringing charges against a person?

[Flanker]

37. Never read your constitution hey?

Article 1, Section 9 states, "The privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it."

Arguably much worse since at least the article changed protect the citizen from torture, death, long prison sentences, a defense and integrity.

[cali]

40. Yes, I've read it.

and I don't care for it at all. Why would I want to see another country go that route? Why would you?

[Flanker]

45. Because it is not the same route

While admitedly due process was defined to be more encompasing,it still retains a right to a defense, meaning charges must be brought eventually even if not inmediately. Somebody held for a few days without charges during times of emergency really does not bother me that much.

[cali]

48. yep. you're a hard core chavistsa all right.

You don't let anything trouble you about what he's doing. Reminds me of something- oh yeah, hard core bushies.

[dipsydoodle]

42. Might do if it was Tony Blair

I'm one of the English cousins.

[nick303]

113. Right, except there might be a tiny problem with Prensa Latina

[Doctor Cynic]

35. what's even more troubling

is that Chavez is using military forces to break up the protesters. In any respectable country the military and police are supposed to be separate. In the US, the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 clearly states that the military should stay out of police business, like dealing with protesters. And then last September when Bush proposed sending the military to deal with natural disasters, there were cries he was trying to impose martial rule on this board. Funny how there aren't those cries here.

[Flanker]

39. Because they are not really military forces.

The NG is a glorified police unit, in this case as a reserve, it was really the Metropolitan Police. Neither had anything more than rubber bullets on them. Also I fail to see how any US act is relevant.

[cali]

41. So when Israeli forces use rubber bullets on Palestinians

do you say the same thing? That it's nothing more than rubber bullets? Wow.

[Flanker]

44. Actually the IDF has been known to use live amunition against protesters

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2004/jan2004/isra-j08.shtml

[cali]

47. nice dodge. n/t

[Flatulo]

50. Do you know that rubber bullets can and do kill? n/t

[Judi Lynn]

51. You'll want to notify the police forces all over the United States who have been using them

for years.

They could probably benefit from your wisdom.

[cali]

58. Are you justifying their use because U.S. police

forces use rubber bullets against protesters? I've railed against that- particularly a couple of years ago when a young woman was killed in Boston. I don't support it here and I don't support it in the West Bank or Israel. Why should I support it in Venezuela. More to the point, why would you?

[Flatulo]

60. That sarcasm was undeserved.

The UN has outlawed their use by peace-keepers in the Balkans.

Innocent people have been getting killed with these things for 30 years. Thay're outrageously dangerous when used by any police force, even Comrade Chavez'.

A beautiful young woman was killed in Boston by one several years ago. It blew through her eye and exploded her head from the inside.

http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=23130&Cr=kosovo&Cr1

http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSL03193517

[Judi Lynn]

65. It's a strange day when the people who are psychotically determined that the U.S. continue to try

to keep a death grip on Latin America, and control the governments therein, no matter WHAT their people have chosen, can attempt to pass themselves off as the peace loving, peace seeking, peace keepers.

It never seems like honest concern, not for a moment.

[Flatulo]

68. Based on my posts, your response is simply ... bizzarre.

I am not psychotically determined to accomplish anything, let alone determine the outcome of the the Venezuealan people. I actually could not care less about them.

I am opposed to heavy-handed police tactics, no matter who employs them. And I'm even more strongly opposed to those who cheerlead such tactics solely because of the ruling regime's ideology. It's simply hpocritical.

It makes me think that if a leftist regime ever came to power in the US, some people here would approve of draconian measures to suppress dissent.

Dissent is good. Opposition is good.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Flatulo]

70. Another bizzarre post... I have clearly stated that I oppose

heavy-handed tactics against opposition groups - by any regime, and not much more than that.

If the use of rubber bullets on human beings does not seem heavy-handed to you, I invite you to research the subject more deeply. Getting hit with a rubber bullet can cause severe internal injuries, up to and including death. It's like getting hit by a car. Trust me, I'm an engineer and I understand kinetic energy at a very fundamental level. Yet you repeatedly decline to respond to use of them by Chavez' forces. Do you approve or disapprove of their use?

Pleae don't read more into my posts than their content - I am not a game-player.

Re: advocating violence - here's one cheerleader...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3051044&mesg_id=3051308

Re: tombstoning - I'm sure if the mods feel that I have violated the rules, they'll act accordingly.

[Flatulo]

99. Ah, we have another winner...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3051044&mesg_id=3053470

Let's hear it for the right to dissent... BANG!

[High Plains]

87. Flatulo, Cali, how should one respond to violent protestors?

Blow kisses at them?

Whenever I participated in violent protests, I understood a violent response could be coming.

[Flatulo]

92. Tear gas, water jets, and sonic cannon are all safe and effective.

I don't know what technology the Venezuelans have in their arsenal. Sound cannon are a pretty recent development, but very effective in causing nausea in crowds. It makes you just want to go home and lie down.

Tear gas, while dangerous for some individuals, is still safer than any projectile.

Look, I understand that US imperialism and hegemony have caused much suffering in the world, and in Latin and South America in particular. I understand that Chavez is immensely popular there, and I believe he does represent the interests of the poor over the rich and landed classes. I don't know much more than that, nor do I pretend to be more versed in the history than some other DUers who have either travelled there or read more extensively than I.

However, I know a double standard when I see one. The same people who would be taking to the streets with pitchforks and torches if a US administration did some of the things that Chavez has done give the man a pass on absolutely *everything*. I have not seen a single criticism of the use of projectiles in this entire thread from the Chavez apologists, even though eveidence has been presented that they are often lethal.

I would hope and expect that reasonable people can work through the cognizant disonance that we all experience and denounce government heavy-handedness whenever and wherever it occurs. Even if it happens to be in Venezuela.

All governments, even those benign fraternal democratic socialist ones, need to be watched like hawks.

[BornagainDUer]

103. Is your name Italian for flatulence? What a gas!

:rofl: :rofl:

[Flatulo]

107. It pleases me that you find my screen name amusing.

I actually am Italian, but the name came to me after drinking a few hearty dark ales.

[dipsydoodle]

63. Pleased to see that

the reinforcements have arrived.:hi:

[David__77]

55. Posse comitatus is unique to the US.

And indeed the military DID kill students in cold blood during the Vietnam War and the military was used to quell disturbances in Los Angeles in 1992, in which there were deaths. So let's not get on too high of a horse here.

[Peace Patriot]

43. It's mind-boggling how DUers cannot distinguish between the autocratic rule

of His Majesty George Bush and his corporate puppetmasters and their minions in Congress, and a real president, legitimately elected by huge majorities, in Carter Center-, OAS- and EU-certified elections, who is doing the will of the people, and is furthermore rallying the entire continent of South America to stand up for itself at long last.

The financial interests who want to rape Venezuela, and all of Latin America--and have been doing so for decades--and the Bush Junta oil and military/police state interests, would brutally repress the awesome, peaceful, democracy and social justice movement in South America, if they could. But it is a movement whose time has come. It includes MANY countries, whose peoples have had it with U.S. domination, exploitation and covert and overt brutality.

Ask Evo Morales and Bolivians about Hugo Chavez. Ask Rafael Correa and Ecuadorans about Hugo Chavez. Ask Nestor Kirchner and Argentinians about Hugo Chavez. As Lula da Silva and Brazilians about Hugo Chavez. All of these ELECTED leaders are FRIENDS of Hugo Chavez, and the vast majority of their constituents like and approve of Chavez. They are all closely cooperating on Bolivarian goals--social justice, regional cooperation and South American self-determination. Ask the OAS about Hugo Chavez and Venezuela--which just voted Venezuela in as a member of the OAS Human Rights Commission. Ask almost any leader in South America about democracy in Venezuela, and they will tell you that it is real, that it is vibrant and that it is having a profoundly beneficial influence on South American economics and political strength in the world.

Chavez is ASKING his people if he MAY run for a third term (and MAYBE be elected again). The measure has big support because SEVENTY PERCENT of the Venezuelan people like Chavez, trust him and support his policies. It is not something he is imposing on them. It is something he asking them to VOTE ON.

Contrast this with three successive stolen elections here, the last two involving widespread use of extremely insecure and insider hackable electronic voting machines, run on 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by rightwing Bushite corporations.

Contrast how George Bush came to power and retained power, with how Hugo Chavez did. Venezuela has electronic voting, but it is an OPEN SOURCE CODE system--anyone may review the code by which the votes are tabulated--and they handcount a whopping 55% of the vote, as a check on machine fraud. Know how much WE handcount? If you don't know, you'd better find out, cuz that's the whole ballgame.*

How dare U.S. citizens criticize Venezuelan democracy, when Venezuelans so obviously have a leader and a government that they have chosen, and we do not!

Worry about BUSH and his successor being a dictator. Stop worrying about Chavez being a dictator. It is a phony, trumped up issue, with no substance. Every Bush State Department "talking point" in support of this notion can be proven to be a lie (just like the WMDs in Iraq!). Furthermore, the Venezuelan people can take care of it themselves, if such a thing should occur. They already peacefully defeated a rightwing military coup attempt, and a number of other assaults on their democracy. What makes anyone think that they cannot deal with Chavez, if he were to become a dictator? And, clearly, in the opinion of the vast majority of Venezuelans--and on the facts--he is not. He has broken no law. In fact, he has been scrupulous in following both the spirit and the letter of the law. He has not unfairly jailed anyone. He has not tortured anyone. He has not invaded anyone. He has not confiscated anyone's property unfairly or without compensation. He has not denied anyone free speech or the right to protest. He is friends with leaders throughout the continent and is forging SOCIAL JUSTICE alliances. WHAT has he done to merit the Bush Junta tag "dictator"?

He has shown independence, that's what. And he has been a bit dictatorial towards Exxon Mobile & pals. Well, shut my mouth. The man is a "dictator" after my own heart. I wish OUR president would be such a "dictator" and start wielding a "big stick" against OUR robber barons! (--and Chavez in fact COMPENSATED the oil corporations, when he nationalized the oil infrastructure--what kind of "dictator" is that?)

What the hell definition of "dictator" can anyone come up with, that Chavez fits? Huh? A law-abiding president, elected by big majorities, with continuing big popular support, who is benefiting his people and his region, and whose government actively ENCOURAGES citizen participation in government and politics.

Open your eyes! You anti-Chavez DUers are obsessed with Chavez because BUSH is obsessed with Chavez and Exxon-Mobile is obsessed with Chavez, and they want to topple him and destroy Venezuelan democracy--and have tried every goddamned trick in the book to do so. And the lapdog corporate news monopolies, that do the bidding of these fascists, and repeat all their distorted "talking points" over and over again, are fucking with your minds. It's called "the Big Lie." It's a technique that Stalin perfected. You're worried about Stalinism? Look to OUR rigged voting system, and OUR lying, propagandistic, 'Big Lie' news media, for the Stalinist weapons being used against YOU, and against the people of South America.
____________________________


*(ZERO percent in many states; and, in the best of states, only 1%--extremely inadequate, with 'TRADE SECRET' programming in the voting machines.)

[Judi Lynn]

49. Just when it couldn't seem dumber, Mayor Henrique Capriles finds a way to grab some publicity,

as if there were any chance he wouldn't!

Published: Friday, November 02, 2007
Bylined to: EFE News Service


Caracas Baruta Mayor Henrique Capriles in dust-up with DISIP (again!)

EFE News Service: Leaders of the center-right opposition party Primero Justicia (Justice First) said that they were attacked and robbed by agents of President Hugo Chavez' government while they were holding a vigil concerning the constitutional reforms outside Venezuela's Supreme Court.

The PJ chiefs had gathered outside the building to demand the justices respond to a motion they had presented in mid-October regarding the format for an upcoming referendum on Chavez' package of proposed constitutional amendments.

One of the PJ leaders, Henrique Capriles, told a press conference that around 4 a.m., he and his colleagues were "taken by surprise by a unit" of the National Guard -- Venezuela's militarized national police -- that ejected them from the door of the courthouse "with shotguns and blows."

"Later we were robbed, mugged, beaten; four agents from the Military Intelligence Directorate, the DISIP put a gun to my neck. I saw their faces," said Capriles, mayor of the capital municipality of Baruta.

"After they finished mugging us, they tell us 'run to the corner' and they fired. They think we're stupid, trying to simulate a robbery. They were state intelligence agents," Capriles said.

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=76661



Golpista mayor Henrique Capriles

You may recall this was the mayor of the town in which anti-Chavez coup demonstrators surrounded the Cuban embassy, cut off food and water, electricity:

The ambassador says the opposition mayor entered the premises to demand that the building be searched for any fugitive pro-Chavez officials. But Mr Capriles maintains he did everything he could to try to calm the angry protesters outside.
(snip)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5097734.stm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
He was being investigated by the Venezuelan prosecutor, Danilo Anderson, who just happened to get murdered by a car bomb. He also is on the U.S. financial assistance NED gravy train, taking money from _Bush's administration through USAID, like Sumate.

The United States Agency for International Development has distributed about $25 million to various Venezuelan organizations over the last five years, according to officials involved in the projects. The funds have been channeled to the Venezuelan groups through private and public entities from the United States that have opened offices in Caracas.

These include Development Alternatives Inc., a Bethesda, Md., company that works closely with the State Department in dispersing funds around the world, and the International Republican Institute and the National Democratic Institute for International Affairs, two Washington groups that have carried out training for emerging political leaders in Venezuela.

Documents obtained from the United States government under the Freedom of Information Act point to numerous grants made by the United States in the past two years to groups whose activities are viewed as critical of Mr. Chávez’s government. The international development agency withheld the names of many of the grant recipients, saying that the disclosure of their identities could put them at risk of political retaliation.

All of the grants were channeled through Development Alternatives, which worked on behalf of the Office of Transition Initiatives, a little-known branch of the international development agency that started operating in Venezuela after the April 2002 coup.
(snip)

...One $15,728 grant for a nutrition program went to the municipal government of Baruta, an area of Caracas whose mayor, Henrique Capriles Radonski, is an outspoken critic of Mr. Chávez.
(snip/...)

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/09/world/americas/09venezuela.html?_r=1&n=Top/News/World/Countries%20and%20Territories/Liberia&oref=slogin

[David__77]

54. He's out of jail? Why?

After what he did, I'd think he'd be behind bars for a long time.

[Judi Lynn]

57. I'll keep my eyes out for more info. on this guy. He has been lurking around a long time.

There should be some very helpful information available on him now. I had just forgotten about him.

No doubt a lot of the prosecution which was underway fell by the wayside when Danilo Anderson was assassinated.

A lot of people don't realize the coup people were actually hot on the trail of PURGING the country of Chavez appointed officials, and Chavez-supporting officials at the time the coup was overthrown. Many of them had had to go into hiding, as their homes were being invaded by coup people who were trying to arrest them all.

This clown's storming into the Cuban embassy, after destroying all their lifelines, like food, water, toilets, electricity, phones, pretending he had to root out any Chavez supporters "hiding" in there was filthy. He should be planted UNDER a jail somewhere.

[Judi Lynn]

62. Found an article which contains Henrique Capriles and "Red Flag" both in one paragraph!

First, the most important discovery in this article is that Henrique Capriles' party, Primero Justicia, is PARTLY FUNDED by _{George Bush's} administration, using U.S. taxpayers' money! See the first snippet, under "Leopoldo Lopez:

April 30 / May 1, 2005

Fair and Balanced or US Govt. Propaganda?
Fox News vs. Hugo Chavez
By NIKOLAS KOZLOFF

Washington, DC

~snip~
Fox Source #1: Leopoldo Lopez:
......Even more revealing, Golinger reports that Primero Justicia received training and support from the International Republican Institute, a nonprofit U.S. organization which receives millions of dollars in laundered funding from the U.S. taxpayer funded National Endowment for Democracy and the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID).
(snip)

.....The day after Chávez was removed from power on April 12, Lopez and Baruta Mayor Henrique Capriles Radonski (see below) placed Chávez's Interior and Justice Minister Ramon Rodriguez Chacin under arrest. Chacin later claimed that as he was being escorted out of his residence into a police car, he was physically attacked by a mob.
(snip)

Radonski and the April 2002 Coup

What is the controversy swirling around Capriles and what did Fox neglect to tell its viewers? During the April 2002 coup against Chávez, hundreds of angry middle-class opposition demonstrators destroyed cars parked outside the Cuban embassy in Baruta. Not stopping there, the mob cut off water and electricity to the building and threatened to forcibly enter the facility and do harm to the frightened occupants inside...
(snip)

In March 2004, a warrant was issued for Capriles's arrest. On May 11 he turned himself in. Prosecutor Danilo Anderson, who had apparently developed a convincing case which linked US agencies to the coup, charged Capriles with property damage, intimidation, violating international principles and trespassing. Meanwhile, Leopoldo Lopez led a march of Chacao residents to the town hall to support Capriles. In an ironic twist, Lopez, who himself signed the Carmona Decree in 2002, remarked that the government was "kidnapping" the country's institutions in order to engage in "political persecutions." Lopez rejected the charges against Capriles and argued that Venezuelans should be outraged about "undemocratic maneuvers." Capriles was held for four months and was released conditionally in September. In October, an appeals court dismissed the case against him.

In a dramatic development however, Anderson was the victim of a car bomb assassination when his SUV blew up in Caracas. Anderson was in charge of prosecuting several Chávez opponents involved in the April 2002 coup, including Capriles. Though no arrests were made, early suspicions focused on the Chávez opposition. Capriles remarked, "The government and the judicial system must find those responsible and do justice." He added, "I had many differences with Danilo Anderson, but these were fought out in the public prosecutor's office." Since late last year, Venezuelan authorities have taken into custody a number of suspects who they accuse of playing a role in Anderson's assassination. Despite the irretrievable loss of Anderson, the state has chosen to go on appealing the Capriles case.

Capriles Radonski: Democratic defender or menace to democracy?
Once again, Fox fails to report

In his report on Venezuela, Harrigan again interviews Capriles who remarks, "If you don't have a rule or somebody who respects the rules, they can do whatever they want. They can be Fidel Castro second part." Clearly the young and somewhat flashily charismatic Capriles has become a symbol of popular resistance to the Chávez government. His supporters claim that he has been unfairly railroaded by the regime and that attacks against him have been politically motivated. But, does Capriles himself have any regard for the democratic process and "the rules?" Recent developments have cast some doubt on Capriles' legitimacy. In early 2004, the Chávez opposition, frustrated by the failed coup attempt of 2002 and by an unsuccessful lock out in 2002-3, initiated the "Guarimba Plan." As Venezuela analyst Steve Ellner has written, under this urban sabotage plan "small groups blocked traffic and burned trash on key avenues in Caracas and other cities. Street damage in Caracas alone, according to Infrastructure Ministry estimates, reached $1 million in the first week. In addition, armed bands of opposition organizations, including the ex-leftist guerrilla group Red Flag, hurled Molotov cocktails and attacked the National Guard-violence that police in areas controlled by opposition parties refused to stop." As Ellner reports, as mayor of Baruta, Capriles "said police were right not to interfere because protestors were doing 'nothing less than exercising their legal right to protest.'"

http://72.14.205.104/search?q=cache:lS_JLieOluUJ:www.counterpunch.org/kozloff04302005.html+%22Henrique+Capriles%22+%2B+protest+%2B+students&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4&gl=us

[David__77]

53. A radical communist group is planning violence to destabilize Chavez's government.

The group is called "Red Flag Party." They are followers of former Albanian leader Enver Hoxha. Their student leader, Stalin Gonzalez, is at the helm of these provocations. And that's what they are, not demonstrations that are legal and peaceful. There will be problems in Caracas because these "ultra-leftists" are intent of creating an "incident" that would serve as a pretext for a fascist coup.

It's clear that there is freedom of speech in Venezuela. Probably too much freedom for treason and coup plotting. I hope that the police forces act with discipline to prevent a provocation and protect people from violence. I hope the elections proceed and the opposition is unsuccessful in its attempt to prevent the people's vote. And I hope that the constitutional reform passes by a wide margin, broadening the rights of the people of Venezuela and making a new social system.

[Judi Lynn]

56. Thanks for the alert on this group. It will be important to watch their activities, after hearing

they have their own agenda to pursue there. Really makes you wonder what's REALLY behind this, after all.

Ultimately, who benefits? The oligarchy, of course!

[0007]

61. I'll keep my eye peeled for those sneaky pinkos also.

Wait a minute! I am a person who holds moderately leftist political views. I'm gonna start watching myself.

[Judi Lynn]

66. Hey, we'll be watching you, too, as well as the others of us! Don't let your guard down.

[liberalsoldier5]

59. Good for the demonstrators!

I stand with them all the way, and I'm glad both the Democratic and Republican parties officially do too. There is NO excuse for the type of rule that this Venezuelan "thug" (Nancy Pelosi's word, for all you fringies) has put into place down there.

Bu...but..but the people support him!? Nonsense. Hitler was beloved too. To every anti-liberal, pro-authoritarian Chavez supporter: If Bush had the support of the American public to do what Chavez has done, would you find a way to support it too because, well, "it's what the people want"? Of course you wouldn't. Leftist dictatorship is still dictatorship.

Viva Chavez? Fuck Chavez. And everyone who forsakes Democratic principles to support him.

Personally, I hope the US (meaning both parties, as one voice) sends the demonstrators all the money and support they need. "Freedom! Freedom!"

(and after seeing the support that hugo's got here, I also hope that nobody from mainstream America ever comes here and thinks we represent the Democratic Party. we'd be screwed...)

[dipsydoodle]

64. I really do recommend

you watch The Revolution Will Not be Televised before you make such ill considered remarks.
: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

[Judi Lynn]

67. It'd be a good idea if you became familiar with your own country's laws.

It's ILLEGAL for other countries to fund opposition groups in the United States.

It's also illegal in most other countries for the U.S. to do that to them.

Democracy does NOT mean destabilizing a democratically elected government through supporting the opposition financially. I'd expect an old Democracy lover like you to be acquainted with this principle.

Time to do your homework, if you can step aside long enough from your invaluable posting to learn more about the subject you're attempting to discuss. The "opposition" has controlled Venezuela for a very long time, creating vast, widespread poverty and suffering. It still controls its mass media almost completely, and the content therein, meaning almost every bit of information coming in or leaving, real or more likely concocted. But you knew that, right?

[midlife_mo_Jo]

71. I agree.

"(and after seeing the support that hugo's got here, I also hope that nobody from mainstream America ever comes here and thinks we represent the Democratic Party. we'd be screwed...)"

My sentiments exactly.

[ohio2007]

74. "antidisestablishmentarianism" was a 60's student protest cry on the US college campuses

but at Hugo U. ....
There will be no Bob Dylan songs about changing times.

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[superduperfarleft]

90. .

"Personally, I hope the US (meaning both parties, as one voice) sends the demonstrators all the money and support they need. "Freedom! Freedom!""

Yes, because US intervention in central and south america over the past few decades has turned out soooo well. :eyes:

In the interest of full disclosure, I support Chavez, but regardless of that, it's attitudes like yours that directly cause these countries to elect vehemently anti-US leaders in the first place. Maybe if the neoliberals and imperialists would keep their hands off the rest of the world, there'd be fewer and fewer Chavez-like leaders cropping up.

But don't let that stop you from cheering on imperialism like it's a fucking football game. U-S-A! U-S-A!

[Judi Lynn]

73. Cheney in Geography 101: Hugo Chavez of Peru?

Cheney in Geography 101: Hugo Chavez of Peru?
by Matthew Hay Brown

Quick: Of which major South American country is Hugo Chávez president?

If you answered "Venezuela," the score is now You 1, Dick Cheney 0.

Asked today how concerned he was about the influence of the Bush-baiting Bolivarian, the vice president appeared to install Chávez as the leader of Peru.
(snip)

"My own personal view is that he does not represent the future of Latin America. And the people of Peru, I think, deserve better in their leadership. But that’s obviously a matter they’ve got to resolve for themselves."

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/politics/blog/2007/11/cheney_in_geography_101_hugo_c.html

[1932]

81. Anyone who wants to have an informed opinion on this should read Peter Kornbluh's book

the Pinochet File, which explains what happened to Allende...

[BornagainDUer]

106. Daaaamn good idea. Thanks for posting this.

[Pavulon]

84. BTW a PVC coated round

will shatter your bones. Rubber bullets are deadly. They be using the kind that just blind you and break skin or they be using a pvc coated rifle round that can kill you.

The water warms for the froggies. I guess not all the animals are equal on the farm after all..

[conspirator]

91. How different is this from when police beats people in G8 demonstrations?

The purpose of G8 is also to establish perpetual corporate and oligarch power, where control of wealth stays in the hands of a few.

[DerBeppo]

93. It's not.

That's the point.

[Beerboy]

98. The brats and fascist swine should be put down

without pity or mercy. Good on Hugo's cops.

[denem]

100. 4 Chavez good, 2 Rich bad

[ohio2007]

101. Four dead in Ohio......nt

[BornagainDUer]

104. Who financed this "Freedom" protest?

Who?

[BornagainDUer]

105. This sounds more like an attempt to overthrow the government

than "Freedom" march.

"Authorities broke up the protest outside the headquarters of the country's electoral council, reporting that six police officers and one student were injured. But students said dozens of protesters were hurt during the melee. The local Globovision television network broadcast footage of several police beating an unarmed protester with billy clubs.

Student leader Freddy Guevara said it was not immediately clear how many students were arrested, and he urged local human rights groups to help verify the number of detained protesters.

Students hurled rocks and bottles, and a few lifted up sections of metal barricades and thrust them against police holding riot shields. Students retreated later when police fired plastic bullets."


"six officers and one student hurt". SHEEEEEET! Who the fuck got the better of that exchange??

[BornagainDUer]

110. I ask again cali, where have you ever supported Chavez??

[ohio2007]

111. 8 Injured After Anti-Hugo Chavez March

CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) - Gunmen opened fire on students returning from a march Wednesday in which 80,000 people denounced President Hugo Chavez's attempts to expand his power. At least eight people were injured, including one by gunfire, officials said.

Photographers for The Associated Press saw at least two gunmen—one wearing a ski mask and another covering his face with a T-shirt—firing handguns at the anti-Chavez crowd. Terrified students ran through the campus as ambulances arrived.

snip

"Don't allow Venezuela to go down a path that nobody wants to cross," student leader Freddy Guevara told Globovision.

Chavez, who was first elected in 1998, denies the reforms threaten freedom. He says they would instead move Venezuela toward what he calls "21st century socialism."

The Supreme Court is unlikely to act on the students' demands, given that pro-Chavez lawmakers appointed all 32 of its justices.

snip
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8SP4FF00&show_article=1

[Pavulon]

112. Note how that person is holding that weapon

that is a taught grip. Most people do not hold a sidearm like that without some formal police or military training.

Guess the little froggies are boiled now. I am sure the cult members will justify the shooting of the rich students, enemies of chavez.

I would bet, well I would just bet that person is police or military.

[ret5hd]

114. Yeah, nobody that's watched a movie in their entire life...

starring bruce willis or arnie or van damm. :rofl: what a ridiculous assertion!