Supporters of Venezuela's Chavez and his reforms stage massive march

[Judi Lynn]

Source: International Herald Tribune/Associated Press

Supporters of Venezuela's Chavez and his reforms stage massive march
The Associated Press
Published: November 4, 2007

CARACAS, Venezuela: Tens of thousands of Venezuelans marched through the capital on Sunday, in a show of support for changing the constitution to greatly expand socialist President Hugo Chavez's power and allow him to run for re-election indefinitely.

Waving flags and wearing the red of Chavez's ruling party, the "Chavistas" — as the president's backers are known — shouted slogans in favor of the 69 proposed amendments in a procession that stretched for several kilometers (miles).

Vice President Jorge Rodriguez predicted a solid victory in a Dec. 2 up-down referendum on the changes, which were overwhelmingly approved Friday by the Chavista-controlled National Assembly.
(snip)

Chavez, who won re-election last year on promises to transform Venezuela into a socialist state, says the changes would expand democracy by giving neighborhood-based assemblies administrative responsibilities usually reserved for elected officials.



Read more: http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/11/04/america/LA-GEN-Venezuela-Constitution.php

[Joanne98]

1. YAY! k&r

[dipsydoodle]

2. Yo ! K & R

Interesting to read what's printed as news when it hasn't been routed by Venezuala's right wing media into AP..

[murray hill farm]

3. YES!!!!!

I have been waiting for this side of the story. Thanks!!

[leftchick]

4. Pics! And the pro-US AP version

Supporters of Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez attend a rally in Caracas, Sunday, Nov. 4, 2007, as Chavez starts his campaign in favor of the approval of the constitutional reforms that will allow him to be reelected indefinitely. Venezuelans will vote in a referendum on the changes on Dec. 2, 2007. (AP Photo/Fernando Llano)



Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez, top center, greets supporters upon his arrival to a rally in Caracas, Sunday, Nov. 4, 2007. Chavez started his campaign in favor of the approval of the Constitutional reforms that will allow him to be reelected indefinitely. Venezuelans will vote in a referendum on the changes on Dec. 2, 2007. (AP Photo/Fernando Llano)


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071102/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/venezuela_constitution

Amendments would let Chavez run again


CARACAS, Venezuela - Venezuela's pro-government National Assembly overwhelmingly approved constitutional reforms on Friday that would greatly expand the power of President Hugo Chavez and permit him to run for re-election indefinitely.

<snip>

The proposed changes, Chavez's most radical move yet in his push to transform Venezuela into a socialist state, threaten to spur a new wave of political upheaval in this oil-rich South American country already deeply divided over Chavez's rule.

The amendments would allow the government to expropriate private property prior to a court ruling and take total control over the Central Bank, create new types of property managed by cooperatives, and extend presidential terms from six to seven years while allowing Chavez to run again in 2012.

All but seven of the assembly's 167 lawmakers voted for the changes by a show of hands.

"Today the Venezuelan people have a pencil in their hands to write their own history, and it's not going to be the history of the elite," said pro-Chavez lawmaker Earle Herrera.

Concerns that the measures will weaken civil liberties have been raised by university students, opposition parties, human rights groups and representatives of Venezuela's Roman Catholic Church.


.... AKA: CONCERNS That Pro-West Corporate Influence in SA is DEAD! :rofl: VIVA CHAVEZ! :)

[Judi Lynn]

9. You've come through with some WONDERFUL photos!

[scarletwoman]

45. Wonderful photos! THIS is what it looks like when the People own their government,

instead of the wealthy elite and the corporatocracy.

Viva Chavez! Viva the people of Venezuela!

sw

[NBachers]

70. Where can I get one of those shirts? nt

[EFerrari]

90. That's a good question. I'm going to try to find out.

:)

[Mnpaul]

73. I bet Bush is jealous

A leader the people actually like.

[Fridays Child]

5. K&R

:woohoo:

[silverweb]

6. Nice coverage!

I won't hold my breath waiting for the U.S. media to run this very positive story.

K&R. :)

On Edit: VERY happy to see the Yahoo story! Let's hope it gets full and fair MSM coverage, not just the usual anti-Chavez slant.

[rjones2818]

7. The cool thing about it...

is that the Venezuelan people will vote on the changes! It's not the provential/state legislatures. In this case, I'll trust the will of the people more than the will of the politicians!

Go Hugo, Go Venezuela, Go Bolivarian Revolution!

[Progressive Friend]

8. K&R! USA needs a leader like Chavez!

[JoFerret]

44. Absolutely NOT

Not. No way. Never.
You have to be joking.

[eridani]

47. Me, I'll settle for handcounting 55% of all ballots as a check on voting machines n/t

[EFerrari]

65. Right because actual demacracy might kill us.

lol

[DutchLiberal]

10. Viva Chavez! (You know what makes me sick? The media reports...)

When Musharaf decides to throw the Constitution out of the window, to arrest opposition and to censure all media, it's no big deal because he's our ally.
When Chávez takes out one tv station because they were plotting a coup against him, and when he asks the people to voto yes or no on Constitutional reform, he's a dictator.

:mad:

[leftchick]

13. well said

right on point!

[abmand]

16. how about

both are equally disgusting...im not saying what chavez has done for venezuala is bad, but its kind of fishy in my mind when a guy wants to be president- or have the ability to be- for an indefinate period of time

[Progressive Friend]

18. The 'founding fathers' in the Federalist Papers opposed term limits

Personally, I see nothing wrong with progressive leaders winning over and over again. In fact, I like it very much.

[abmand]

19. to each his/her own

...but im still weary of someone that seems that power hungry, progressive or conservative...actually both in my mind are horrible, if anything id prefer a middle of the road kind of guy (but thats just me- i believe progressivism is like conservitism with a nice veneer)

[Ricki]

34. How is progressivism like conservatism?

Other than that they are possibly out of balance?

[abmand]

64. from my experience

..ive noticed that both use the same "hard-line tactics" But then again, i may be attributing this to knee jerk liberalism. Conservitism has that "either you are with us or against us" and so does progressivism. except progressivism hides it in a veneer of niceness. Like the Michael Savage incident (i think the man is dispicable but he was right on this one) over the summer. Also, on my college campus, a paper wrote an article that was against gay marraige and the progressive groups on campus were calling for the author's head. Even if you disagree with the article, the author has a right to be able to express his beliefs- even if they arent "nice". I find both groups are willing to accept things as long as they "agree" with em.

...but what do i know, and i am not meaning to group all progressives/conservites in one group- im just talking about group mentality i have noticed over my short life.

[DutchLiberal]

26. That's not what he wants or what changing the Constitution is about.

He merely wants to be able to run for president again in 2012. In countries like France and Australia, presidents can run indefinately. Are they dictatorships? What if Clinton was able to run in 2000? Do you think we would've been in this mess today? ;)

[abmand]

28. never said it was a dictatorship

....or will ever become one, i just get an eery feeling when i hear something like this. I think no matter how well your intentions might be, power eventually corrupts someone.

[DutchLiberal]

36. Do you feel eerie about France or Australia? Or about FDR who served 4 terms?

[Diclotican]

31. DutchLiberal

DutchLiberal

No, I doubt that if US have a man like Clinton, or Gore as their president, it wil in this catastropic mess they are today..I really belive they would have been mutch more "friendly" to their "old european friends" who with some resevation have stick shoulder to schoulder witht the US sicen 1945...

And, if I may speculate litte, i really doubt 11 sept 2001 wil have happend, becouse a man like Gore would have doing his best to stop this terrorist, who attacet bouth US and the Western world where it hit greatest.. Right in New York to all to se...

The incompetence,arrogance and stupidity of the currend Administration is just amazing.. If a another Administration have doing half what this mad-man have been doing, the american "repulicans" have trown rocks at them now.. And send them to the salt-mines somhwere.. Not given them all the kees to the land, and some more...

But, that it just mee, a "irellevant" European liberal:sarcasm: In european sence I am rather "right in the middle of things". But in american sence I am rather radical.. But as many internet- test have shown when I have testet. I might not be that "radical" as many would have me to be:hide:

Diclotican

Sorry my bad engelish, not my native language

[humbled_opinion]

33. Exactly thats why we need to put another Clinton back in the WH..

Right?

Someone needs to run a new poll that asks the country who is more divisive Hillary or Bush

[DutchLiberal]

38. Of course, that is not a conclusion you could drawl from *my* post.

I was merely pointing out that eliminating term-limits is not a bad thing per sé. (But if you look at my avatar, you know who I support.)

[humbled_opinion]

42. I think my point was that dynasty's/dictatorships etc

Are bad for any country. So I took exception to your idea that eliminating term limits is NOT bad. I think our entire Congress needs a redo and the fact that some of our idiots get elected year after year and still refuse to support any real constructive change irks me. Concur on your avatar though...

No More Clintons, No more Bushes enought already.

[DutchLiberal]

80. I get your point.

However, what if Kucinich was president and he was done with his two terms. What if he could run again? ;)

[humbled_opinion]

143. Well I think you put a referendum on the ballot and if America votes for it

Then it happens you make a Constitutional ammendment but If they don't then you can't just make it so.

[eridani]

48. You mean like FDR? n/t

[justinaforjustice]

96. The Deluded Attack Chavez While US Constitution Burns.

I am an American living in Merida, Venezuela. From this perspective, it is clear that President Chavez and his government are in the process of deepening participatory democracy while the Bush-Cheney government in the U.S. is in the process of destroying it.

Chavez's proposed reforms specifically gives governmental powers to the community councils, along with the funding to carry out community projects. The democratically run community councils decide what projects are priorities for their neighborhoods, participate in supervising and carrying them out, and receive funding to do so.

The proposed reforms expand the rights of all workers, reducing the work week to a maximum of 36 hours, giving all workers the right to two to four weeks of paid vacation, and extend government funded pension rights to those in the informal economy. The proposed reforms prohibit discrimination based on sexual orientation, in addition to existing prohibitions against discrimination based on race, sex, religion, economic class or ethnicity.

The existing 1999 constitution, passed under President Chavez's government, gives all residents the right to adequate food, housing and health care. Imagine, access to free or low cost health care is a constitutional right!

The drafters of our original US Constitution believed that term limitations on the presidency was undemocratic. Term limits were not added to our Constitution until the Republicans became upset by President Roosevelt's four terms in the 1930's and 40's and pushed for term limits. There is nothing undemocratic about allowing the people to vote for whomever they wish to in national elections. We already do so for Congressional representatives. President Chavez's proposed reform merely allows him to stand for re-election more than twice. It certainly does not make him dictator for life as the right wing asserts.

The current Venezuelan Constitution also includes a provision for recall of a president during his term if a percentage of the population petitions for a recall election. This was included in the Constitution at the behest of the Chavez government in 1999 and he fully complied with that provision when the opposition called for a recall election in 2005. Chavez won that recall election by an overwhelming majority.

How many elections has George Bush and Dick Cheney honestly won? Many Americans would say none. International observers from the European Union and the Carter Center monitored all the Venezuelan elections and found them to be fair. The same has not been true for US elections.

No one has accused President Chavez of torturing prisoners or kidnapping people and holding them prisoner without trial or charges. He has established no Guantanamo's or secret jails in foreign countries. Chavez has neither invaded nor bombed other countries. Bush and Cheney are doing all these things.

The Bush-Cheney administration has officially approved interrogation techniques such as waterboarding which have been found to constitute torture. It is building internment camps and arming private mercenary armies for use in the United States against its citizens. It illegally surveils its citizens and deprives them of the historic right to the great Writ of Habeas Corpus to test the legality of detention. It arbitrarily refuses to allow foreign journalists and lecturers to enter its country and prevents its own citizens from traveling to Canada for political conferences.
s
The Bush-Cheney administration proffered an attorney general to the country who carried out systematic purges of insufficiently partisan attorney generals while lying to Congress and refusing to provide documents needed for Congressional investigation. It now proffers as a substitute for that corrupt official another candidate who evades being honest about waterboard torture in order to protect illegal acts of Bush-Cheney officials from prosecution.

The Bush-Cheney administration has no respect whatever for the U.S. Constitution and ignores it with impunity. What a contrast with Chavez's Venezuela where copies of the Constitution are handed out free by the thousands to the population and sections are even printed on grocery bags to inform citizens of their rights. One doubts that President Bush has even bothered to read the Constitution, let alone complied with his duty to uphold it.

President Chavez is bringing government funded education, housing and health care to millions of Venezuelans who never had access to such things before, while the Bush-Cheney administration is making education, housing and health care impossibly expensive for American citizens.

The Bush-Cheney administration is abolishing democracy and giving all power to the corporations in the U.S., to the detriment of the majority of citizens. They have already established the infrastructure for fascism in our country. One only hopes it is not too late to stop them from continuing their march to totalitarianism. One thing is for sure, we don't have the time to be worrying about Venezuelan democracy -- which is doing just fine -- when our own democracy is on the brink of total destruction.

[PassingFair]

152. Can I keep you in my pocket for special occasions?

Beautiful post. Please stick around and pounce on the know-nothings
when they spout off about Chavez in the future!

:yourock:

[pberq]

97. Yes - a double standard

[StClone]

11. I'd say Hugo can manage Venezuela very well

Supporters share his vision. Here's cheers to many Chavez proteges to be elected once his work is done.

[pattmarty]

12. Democracy is a fine balancing act. too much power either right or left is bad.

[eagler]

14. It is interesting to see what position the college students are taking.

I wonder if there are students on both sides of the issue. I also wonder what the little red books say.

[Judi Lynn]

15. The are copies of the proposed reforms. Chavez proposed 30-some, and

the rest of the 69 reforms have been added by the community.

The students are children of the wealthy. Weren't you aware that most of Venezuela is poor? The poor can't afford to send their children to school. It's no secret, it just doesn't get mentioned by corporate media.

Since we have Venezuelan posters, maybe someone of them will see your post and help inform you. You could also do more reading, in a pinch.

[Warren Stupidity]

77. Not only poor but a huge long standing divide

as in many parts of Latin America between the Spanish elites and the ethnically mixed masses. The Venezeulan elites are indeed very threatened by the social democratic movement as it is eroding the foundation of their power.

[JeanGrey]

82. So all the U.S. college students that protest against Bush

aren't the sons and daughters of the "wealthy?"

[Judi Lynn]

104. You need to spend a little of your time doing your homework, reading on the difference

between Latin American countries and the United States. My god.

Do yourself the honor of becoming acquainted with the subjects you're hoping to discuss first.

There is and has been a noticeable difference in the histories of ALL the Latin American countries and the United States. It's appalling to think you won't take the time to find out more about this.

[eagler]

113. Why do you think I was inquiring about the these issues?

There is always more than one side to an issue. I'm appalled that you are appalled.

[jordi_fanclub]

21. The little red book is only... The Constitution.

http://www.constitucion.ve/

Also available in english if you select "En otros idiomas".

[Judi Lynn]

25. The tiny copies of the constitution of Venezuela also come in a more familiar blue!

You undoubtedly have seen lots of photos of people holding little blue books in demonstration photos in previous times.

[EFerrari]

59. And the proposed reforms were widely distributed so local communities

could read and debate them.

When are we ever given that privilege?

"During its review of the proposed reforms, the National Assembly carried out public consultations in all 23 states in Venezuela. The text of the reforms were distributed to an estimated 5.4 million households, particularly in rural and poor areas, which were visited by mobile units equipped with videoconference and wireless systems."

http://www.rethinkvenezuela.com/downloads/Constitutional%20Reform%20fact%20sheet%20UPDATE1.htm

[ronnie624]

69. Imagine US citizens carrying around copies of their constitution,

or reading and learning about proposed legislation before it is voted on. Imagine such material being made available for US citizens to utilize.

Our government wants us detached and ignorant about its activities. The current Venezuelan regime wants its citizens informed and involved, hence the readily available copies of their constitution and legislative proposals.

[dipsydoodle]

76. Quite apart from being printed on grocery packs

I'm really pleased at the reponse to your post and the lower than usual number of pathetic negative responses.:hi:

[Judi Lynn]

24. The caption under the photos of people holding the little red book says:

Supporters of President Hugo Chavez hold a copy of a proposal of reform outside the Venezuelan National Assembly in Caracas November 2, 2007. Congress passed Chavez's proposal to scrap presidential term limits on Friday in a package of constitution changes that Venezuelans are likely to approve in a December referendum. REUTERS/Jorge Silva (VENEZUELA)

It's photo #57 in the slideshow leftchick has posted, at the Yahoo site.

[EFerrari]

66. The oligarchy trots out kids from the rich schools and

they are every time outnumbered by kids in support. Guess which group our media reports?

[davidinalameda]

17. sorry if I can't get behind anyone who is in bed with the Iranians

[bvar22]

46. I can't get behind someone who wants to BOMB the Iranians.

I'm NOT sorry.

[humbled_opinion]

147. Thats Why I won't vote for a Clinton...

[EFerrari]

52. Iran, despite recent reports. didn't do 9/11.

And the average Iranian is just like us -- trying to live their life.

[justinaforjustice]

99. Believe Everything Bush-Cheney & Co. Writes?

Why do you believe that the Iranians are so bad? I expect it is because you have been reading the U.S. press, which dutifully reports the Bush-Cheney State Department press releases as fact, rather than self-serving fiction.

Yes, in the early 1980's the Iranians took many people from the U.S. embassy hostage. That was awful. But it was equally awful when, in 1953, the U.S. CIA deposed Iran's democratically elected president and replaced him with the Shah of Iran, who proceeded to carry out a reign of repression and terror that rivaled that of Iraq's Saddam, a figure the U.S. also helped into power. The U.S. press has long neglected to inform us about the U.S.'s sorry history in Iran. Now the Bush-Cheney administration is funding the PKK terrorists to carry out bombing attacks inside Iran to destablize that government. So much for the "war on Terror".

While I abhor the Iranian treatment of women and homosexuals, I also note that Iran hasn't invaded another country in 250 years. And, according to the recent report of the United Nations nuclear inspection agency, Iran DOES NOT HAVE A NUCLEAR WEAPONS PROGRAM. The UN inspectors were honest and accurate when they told the world that Iraq did not have a nuclear weapons program or other weapons of mass destruction in 2003. Our political leadership ignored that information, accepted the lies from the Bush-Cheney administration about imminent "mushroom clouds" over Manhattan, and blindly supported the Iraq invasion, undoubtedly the worst foreign policy decision in U.S. history.

Now, to top that, Bush-Cheney want to attack Iran based on equally spurious threats about Iran starting world war III with the nuclear weapons it does not have. So, in order to prevent Iran from starting world war III, Bush-Cheney will start world war III, possibly using nuclear bunker buster bombs, in order to prevent Iran's alleged nuclear world war III.

When Bush and Cheney first took office, Iran was in the process of democratizing and liberalizing. When Bush named Iran as one of the three "Axis of Evil" countries, the liberals in Iran were stabbed in the back as the Iranian conservatives used the implicit Bush threat to consolidate power to stop the liberalization.

The Bush-Cheney administration has no interest in democracy in Iran, their only interest is in the oil in Iran, just as it was in Iraq. We believe otherwise at our peril.

[humbled_opinion]

148. Ahem... The Generals in Iraq have proof that the Iranian Quads force

Is killing American Soldiers....

Now I believe this country has gone to war for far less than that. Right?

[EFerrari]

162. No, they don't or it would be plastered all over the corporate

media.

That's bs. The truth is, we're arming people and sending them INTO Iran, foreign fighters AND Special Ops.

[Judi Lynn]

163. Geez, that didn't ring a bell with me, for sure! So ODD!

Of course it would have been bellowed to the four corners of the earth if they had a real REASON for revenge. It would make life worth living for these murderous monsters and thieves.

[EFerrari]

164. I heard the author of "The Iran Agenda" run down the list of people

we are arming and sending into Iran -- including, wait for it, -- Taliban!

He was on BookTv last weekend. And now, Israel wants to get rid of the IAEA head. Apparently, he's not playing ball with the plans to attack Iran for no reason.

LINK: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x2240124

[davidinalameda]

154. you abhor the way women and homosexuals are treated?

if that's not one of saddest things I've ever read on here, I would almost have to chuckle

Iran MURDERS gays as part of public policy

I can't imagine anyone even attempting to defend the Iranian administration

[ima_sinnic]

102. oooh, boga booga, the IRANIANS!!

sheesh.

I guess brainwashing does work.

[index555]

157. No, only certain parts of the Iranian Govt.

Iran would be pretty close to a true democracy if it just eliminated the part of their constitution that says a certain group of mullahs can decide who can and can not run for office, as well as other absolute powers.

[philly_bob]

20. Doubts about Chavez & these reforms

See my comments at end of discussion in http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3047233

Look, the constitutional reform is so that he can remain in office as long as he wants.

How would we feel if Bush reformed the constitution so he could have another term or three?

[nxylas]

22. My concern is that Chavez is putting all his eggs in one basket

By tying up Venezuela's progressive reforms with his own presidency, he renders them vulnerable. If the CIA were to put a bullet between his eyes, would the Bolivarian revolution come to a screeching halt?

[philly_bob]

40. Agreed. Is he using oil revenue for his own power or for the future?

The policy goal of a people's leader given an unexpected resource windfall is to build up infrastructure and institutions that will survive the end of the windfall. Is Chavez doing that? Or is he using the revenue to buy support and personal power?

Where will Venezuela be when two inevitabilities occur: (a) it runs out of oil and (b) Chavez dies?

The term limits extension really bothers me.

[EFerrari]

57. He is most certainly investing in infrastructure, in popular literacy,

health and homeownership and in building fair trade relations in Latin America.

Why the heck do you think BushCo hates him so much? He's rocking their thieving boat bigtime.

For your concern about "after Chavez" -- find and watch the documentary about the attempted coup. He's barely in it because they kidnapped him. His cabinet is really the star of the film. And, they are a bunch of leaders, not yes men. It's quite remarkable and it's on film.

[nxylas]

87. What's the name of the documentary?

I'll have to check it out.

[EFerrari]

88. The Revolution Will Not Be Televised

and it's terrific. Two film makers were there to interview Chavez and they were accidently caught up in the coup attempt. The film is the result.

[EFerrari]

89. Here's a google link:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5832390545689805144

[justinaforjustice]

93. VE Coup Documentary: The Revolution Will Not Be Televised" - See YouTube n/t

[EFerrari]

119. Thank you, justina. n/t

[eridani]

50. Possible, but if large numbers of people are involved in politics--

--and they stay involved, that is less likely to cause a problem. Someday, Chavez will be gone, even if he gets re-elected a lot.

[druidity33]

23. i think not

"Look, the constitutional reform is so that he can remain in office as long as he wants."


more like, he will be in office for as long as HE IS VOTED IN. By a much more reliable system of election than ours, btw. Open source coding dontcha know!


:)

[eridani]

49. He'd have to get elected, just like FDR n/t

[EFerrari]

54. No. The changes to terms means he can RUN as many times

as he wants. And in Venezuela, they vote on better, cleaner election systems than WE do.

[Rhodekill]

107. "Cleaner"?

After just being in Caraballeda for a week, I can assure you there is nothing "cleaner" there than in the US.

All of the 25 or so people I talked to hate Chavez. They ranged from the very poor I met at the local restaurant to mutli million dollar boat owners.

Another thing I noticed is nearly every street corner has a billboard with some pro Chavez government paid for slogan on it.

As for the pictures above, we walked through town one night and the main street was closed for a party. There were 20-25 thousand people in the street listening to a band celebrating the start of their baseball season. It’s not all that hard to draw a crowd down there.

For all those who like Chavez and think its all great in Venezuela you should get down there right away. If you have never been to the third world you are in for a real eye opener.

[EFerrari]

108. Yes, cleaner. They use open source code and we don't.

Does that answer your question?

:)

[Rhodekill]

110. No

Have you been there lately?

[EFerrari]

112. Your question was about my statement regarding their elections.

So, what other information do you need about them to clear up your question?

Sorry, your report doesn't jive with any credible information that comes out of Venezuela, and by that I mean, information not put out by the oligarchy or by BushCo or by credible reporters.

[Rhodekill]

114. Nice non-answer

I'll just guess that you have never been there. They can use what ever code they like or even crayon marked, hand counted ballots and it would still not be "Cleaner" than here in the US.

I feel I am pretty credible. I talked to all different types of people while there to see what people thought about their government. The opinions were unanimous. It amazes me that people can get on here and have no real first hand knowledge, never been there and talk like they are an expert because of what they have read in the press.

The whole country is basically a mess. Are you familiar with the mudslides that took place back in the 90's? Hotels and whole areas of the town I was in are still not reopened. As we were leaving Caracas it was raining pretty hard and we had to stop due to the flooding of virtually every street. The mudslides are very likely to happen again and potentially kill 50-100k next time.

For a country with such great leadership and the amount of money they make off of oil they should be paradise. Most houses dont even have running water they have rain barrels on the roof. As for their currency, the rate on the street was 4250 to $1. Yeah Chavez realy has it going great down there.

[EFerrari]

116. I answered your question with precision. And I recognize a smear

when I read it.

:)

[Rhodekill]

117. Not smearing.

Just asking if you have been there.
:)

[EFerrari]

118. No, I haven't been to Venezuela.

By the same token, I wasn't at Auschwitz or Hiroshima or El Mozote.

But I follow the developments in Latin America closely. And I don't mistake anecdotes for the status quo. I could walk around San Salvador and find penniless people who love the government there, repressive as it is, and as opposed to their self interests as it is. So what?

30% of Americans adore Bush even though he's bleeding them dry and dooming their children to poverty. Should I take their anecdotes for gospel? I think, no.

Maybe you should have made better use of your time in Venezuela. It sounds as though you managed not to do that.

[Judi Lynn]

120. You need to do just a bit of your homework on Venezuela's history.

That massive poverty you've seen has been in place forever, and is starting to be aleviated through the new programs being implemented by a new government.

You are unbelievably uninformed. How can you possibly imagine the poverty was brought on by Hugo Chavez' government, which has been in place since 1999? Good grief!

Take a look at post #96 by Justinaforpeace:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3053960#3054585

That poster is an American who lives in Venezuela right now, who has been posting here for months. Take the time to familiarize yourself with Venezuela's actual history, and don't be so dim you'd imagine you can know a country without knowing any of the FACTS concerning the country.

You've got a whole lot of work ahead of you just to catch up with ordinary people, if you're going to discuss Venezuela. A physical look at a place doesn't explain something to someone who knows absolutely nothing about it. You need INFORMATION. That part is something you're going to have to do yourself. No one can hand it to you. You are going to be required to use your mind, as painful as that may be.

The open source code the poster told you about means over 50% of the votes are hand counted, as a BACKUP, and that the vote counting is done on machines which can be examined at any time by anyone, whereas the ones in your own country are closed to any kind of oversight from anyone, anywhere, at any time. No one can review or test the results. That's why they are being replaced. It's dirty. People who read some knew that a long time ago.

[EFerrari]

122. If I went from the airport in San Salvador straight to my uncle's resort

I'd have no idea about the lives of ordinary people in San Salvador.

And, nothing I'd hear from the resort, owners or employees, would enlighten me.

The propaganda is ubiquitous. It's not surprising that people hold these beliefs from casual contacts. Not at all.

[Judi Lynn]

124. You have the wisdom to realize you need more than first impressions

to have any perception of a situation.

I would imagine you've always been like that. It's an intelligence thing, undoubtedly. Either it's there or it's NOT there.

[Rhodekill]

127. So you have been there?

Questions and derogatory remarks about my intelligence is a great way to start a conversation.

All I am saying is if Chavez has been in power for 8 years, from what I saw and the people I talked to he has'nt done much and is disliked by larger parts of the population than you two let on. This was not my first trip there and some of the people I went with have been going yearly for 20 years.

Keep beleiving that Chavez is the messiah and degrading posters who only post what they saw, that should further your cause greatly.

[Judi Lynn]

130. Why don't you address your remarks to the poster on this thread who has been living there,

who lives there today, who is an American, as well, Justtinaforjustice?

No doubt you have a lot of important insight to share with one who has been there quite a while already.

[Rhodekill]

132. OK

I will. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction.

People who like to talk about things without any firsthand knowledge and act like an expert just bother me. Kinda like someone telling you how beautiful the wheat fields in Kansas are with out ever seeing them.

[Judi Lynn]

134. Really. How many people can go to any other country and be foolish enough

to realize they don't need to take their brains with them?

Simply arriving in a country, walking around, talking to people, talking to a lot of people doesn't make you an expert, as most of us already learned long ago.

Maybe someone who's been to Cancun on a summer break can tell us what he/she knows about Mexico.

[Rhodekill]

137. OH

I could tell you quite a bit about Mexico if you like. I have been there atleast 10 times.

I think your description of me makes me sound just like a reporter. Maybe you just choose which ones to listen to.

[PassingFair]

153. Hey, he DID talk to TWENTY-FIVE people, Judi. Not 1, 25....

:rofl:

[bvar22]

155. I lived and worked in Venezuela.

Chavez enjoys a popularity of between 65-70% of the resident Venezuelan population. Since you have stated you never met a Chavez supporter, I KNOW where you stayed, and where you traveled. The wealthy and the Colonial Corporate dependants DO oppose Chavez. If you stay in the gated compounds, or only travel in the "safe/tourist" areas, you will pretty much only meet the minority Anti-Chavez partisans.
I would recommend that you get out and see the REAL Venezuela, but it wouldn't be safe for someone with such a shocking lack of awareness and history.

Your have observed "problems" that are a century in the making and blaming Chavez.

Venezuela belongs to the Venezuelans.
It is none of our business.

[BornagainDUer]

136. Let me see. You go to Venezuela. You meet no-one who likes

Chavez, you meander back to the states, presuming that is where you are now, you find DU, find this topic and post after only 9 posts. :eyes:

More likely you are a paid shill. But I'll leave that open for the moment.

[Rhodekill]

139. Yep shill thats me.

I have been a lurker here for a long time. A shill for who?

I don't really care about Venezuela or Chavez either way. As I said I am just trying to tell you guys what I experienced. My first few posts on here were to let people know I was going and would report back. Maybe all you armchair quarterbacks should catch a plane and form your own opinions.

[BornagainDUer]

140. You oughta catch a plane to a library , do some research and get a clue.

How much did this trip to Venezuela cost?

[Rhodekill]

142. Yeah I should

I saved your name. If I need to know anything about potatoes or Idaho I will hit you up.

It cost about 4k.

Thanks

[ima_sinnic]

138. wow!! a whole week?! and you talked to a whopping 25 people?!

yes, a real "expert," all right (I do have to agree with the assessment a little upthread about yr true, er, source of livelihood).

I lived in Jamaica for 14 months and would never presume to be able to characterize an entire country even from a visit of that length, even such a small country. It was more than a visit, actually, I lived in Kingston, among the people, for about half that time, and out more in the boondocks for the other half. I also traveled all over the island, doing research on varieties of a tree. I witnessed an election, and some problems that went with it. I saw many people living in squalorous shantytowns, as well as middle-class people in condos and small houses, and even wealthy people on oceanfront property and estates. But it would be arrogant and presumptuous of me to speak for Jamaicans. I was a long-term visitor, nothing more, nothing less.

You were a tourist. You know nothing about Venezuela. You sound like an arrogant @$$.

[Rhodekill]

141. I agree.

I never said I was an expert. I was relaying what I experienced. As to my source of livelihood, I am a contractor in VA.

After your time in Jamaica don't you think you might have just a little bit more knowledge about the situation there than someone who has never even been there?

True, I was only a tourist who has been there a few times. I have many friends who have been there regularly for 20 years.

[JeanGrey]

83. Why it sounds like we'd love it depending on who

it was. This is very dangerous.

[humbled_opinion]

149. Well now that is an interesting approach...

The Right Wing would feel it justified and needed because of Terra and all... and the Democrats would say that it was insanity... you see it could never gain 2/3 majority in Congress to pass muster so it is a non-starter... Now I guess if you are truly a dictator then you just say hey... I will run for unlimited terms and then when the elections are held you just say ... hey everybody vote for me ... and then when the votes are counted you just say hey i won.... Regardless of what the people actually vote for...

[originalpckelly]

27. Isn't it a little odd that a President of a democratic revolution would want...

to stay in power in so many terms? How many people are there in Venezuela who could be running and winning the Presidency? Probably a lot more than one.

A democratic revolution is not one man.

[ret5hd]

32. You are right. THIS is a democratic revolution:

[EFerrari]

58. HA! What a great shot!

:toast:

[NBachers]

72. Don't look like socialist terrerist slaves to me

Could it be that someone's been misleading us? Decieving us? Lying to us??

From "Something's Coming;" West Side Story:

It's only just out of reach, down the block, on a beach, under a tree.
I got a feeling there's a miracle due, gonna come true, coming to me.
Could it be? Yes it could, something's coming, something good.
If I can wait, something's coming, I don't know what it is, but it is gonna be great...


Sorry- dating myself

[humbled_opinion]

150. DING DING DING DING DING ... We have a winner this is exactly why his power grab is suspect. n/t

[losthills]

29. The Mask comes off...

A new 3rd world dictator is born.

Viva La Bullshit...

[EFerrari]

55. LOL! We have another Faux viewer in the house.

:)

[losthills]

62. Yeah right.....

There are none so blind as the willfully brainwashed....

[EFerrari]

63. I couldn't agree more. n/t

[ima_sinnic]

103. wow -- how very ... well educated ==

NOT

why anyone who is for democratic values of justice for all, equal opportunity, grassroots decision making, resources being used to benefit the people, literacy, health care, education-- why anyone who is for these things would not be for their reality in the Bolivarian Revolution is beyond me. Well, I can suspect why ... :eyes:

[humbled_opinion]

30. They used to show mass support in Baghad under Saddam too..

and in Red Square under Stalin and Lenin... It doesn't make it right for Chavez to take the actions he does...

When he starts executing the opposition will that sit well with people on this board too... Sorry but when that happens it usually is too late to change it.

[EFerrari]

60. How can you possibly, rationally compare Saddam to Chavez?

Saddam was BushCo's hitman for years until they didn't need him.

Chavez has never been anything of the sort. Good grief.

[humbled_opinion]

144. The comparison had nothing to do with Bushco it had to do with DICTATORSHIP.

[EFerrari]

156. I think it's a little silly to call Chavez a DICTATOR when he was

elected and your own president was not.

lol

[Matilda]

67. There is no record anywhere, anytime, of Chavez executing anybody,

so it's quite wrong of you to issue a pre-emptive condemnation.

The reforms being put to referendum cover far more than just giving Chavez the ability to run for
office again:

"The reforms to the constitution will recognise the social “missions” — community projects that provide for Venezuela’s poor in areas like health and education — as part of the country’s state. They also include a series of other measures, such as a reduction in the working day to six hours, measures make it easier for the government nationalise companies and giving workers in the informal sector the right to social security. If adopted, the reforms would also enshrine the role of institutions of “popular power”, which Chavez has said would constitute the “the basic nucleus of the socialist state”. Chavez was re-elected in the December 2006 on an explicit platform of building “socialism for the 21st Century”."

http://www.greenleft.org.au/2007/729/37786

The reforms Chavez is undertaking are huge in their scope, and would take decades to be completed.
If he had to stand down at the next election, there would be no guarantee that a future government
would continue his program. Besides, coming from a country that has no term limits, I can tell you,
it's not a big deal, provided that elections are open and fair.

Once the country has reached a point where the majority of people are well-educated and used to
exercising their democratic rights, it will be much harder for an unscrupulous politician or military
leader of the future to seize power in the way that has happened so often in Venezuela's past. That
is what is really troubling the opposition - they liked things the way they used to be.

[JeanGrey]

84. The reforms Chavez is undertaking are huge in their scope, and would take decades to be completed.

Of course not - there isn't any "guarantee" that ANY leader's reforms will go on forever. That is the point.

[humbled_opinion]

145. I didn't say that he had executed anyone yet. "Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely"

[Occulus]

98. If he were going to do anything of the sort

he would have done so after he overwhelmingly won the election immediately following the coup attempt. The people who did that actually kidnapped him, and he would have been well within his rights to have them all lined up and shot for treason, but as far as I'm aware, he did not do so.

I believe actual treason is still a capital Federal offense in the US; I may be wrong on that point, but ask yourself this: if a large group of powerful individuals had come this close || to a successful coup attempt under Bush here in the US, including kidnapping *, and failed in that attempt, what do you think would be done with them, here and now?

I'm thinking Guantanamo at the least, possibly execution. So, what did Chavez do with the people who supported overthrowing his government, and more specifically, what did Chavez do or have done with the people who actually kidnapped him?

[humbled_opinion]

146. Now thats funny a coup in the U.S. Amazingly our...

Constitution is set up in such a way as to make that nearly impossible... Many Presidents have been assassinated here the only possible coup would be if the VP was the perp. The American People would not recognize a non line of succession President and we do assume the rule of law in the U.S. also our government is equally split so that no one branch wields all of the power... In any event. Chavez is in the middle of a power grab under the guise of socialist reforms.. If term limits were part of the constitution then obviously their is a procedure for amending it. Has Chavez properly implemented a constitutional amendment IAW Venezuelan law? So many here are quick to support such moves by dictators that say they speak in the name of their people... I think even Bush tried that BS too... but unlike the U.S. when it becomes too late for the people of Venezuela to do anything about it then most of the time it becomes too late for us to help them.... that is an historical fact.

[jaysunb]

35. Giving "power to the people" huh

that'll get you killed...:evilfrown:

[EFerrari]

61. No kidding. I don't know why he's still alive.

No thanks to the oligarchy or to BushCo, I'm sure.

[Judi Lynn]

37. It never seems to trigger such scenery chewing among right-wingers when the subject of a THIRD TERM

for Colombia's fascist _Bush-clinging, death squad loving right-wingdingdandy Alvaro Uribe is mentioned! I have to wonder why that is.

Backers of Colombia's Uribe promote unprecedented third term
The Associated Press
Published: October 10, 2007


BOGOTA, Colombia: Close supporters of President Alvaro Uribe in congress announced Wednesday that they would seek a constitutional amendment to allow the Colombian president to seek a third term in office.

The pro-government "U" party, the largest bloc in Congress, said later this month they would begin collecting the 1.3 million signatures needed to force a referendum on allowing the popular conservative leader to run for a third consecutive term.

If a referendum is held and voters approve the amendment, it would still need to be approved by congress and then be greenlighted by the constitutional court.

"No army switches generals when it's winning the battle," said Luis Guillermo Giraldo, secretary general of the "U" party, which approved the proposal Wednesday at a party congress.
(snip/...)

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/10/11/america/LA-GEN-Colombia-Uribe-Reelection.php

[OxQQme]

39. This seems, to me, to be his platform..

"the changes would expand democracy by giving neighborhood-based assemblies administrative responsibilities usually reserved for elected officials."

[pissnoffrethugs]

41. Awesome

This is some of the best news I have read all day, we need more leaders like Chavez

[Jax]

43. Thanks for this info as always Judi Lynn

What I still love about DU is the very good and honest and professional information I get here about necessary global information from posters like you.

You bring the truth Judi Lynn. Longtime member and reader here.

YOU BRING THE TRUTH. I still read it and pass it on. Thank you so for your efforts here, difference making.


Alyce

[Judi Lynn]

51. Went to see if I could find a new article to post in answer to your remarks.

This one is a little better than what we're used to reading: the reporter and the editor forgot to pack in the standard amount of crap we're used to reading! You'll see the difference right away!

Venezuela president kicks off reform vote campaign
2 hours ago

CARACAS (AFP) — Huge crowds cheered President Hugo Chavez in Venezuela's capital Sunday as he kicked off a referendum campaign to further his power-consolidating socialist reforms -- a drive that has sparked deadly protests.

Thousands of people dressed in red filled the city streets as Chavez passed on the back of a truck to officially launch his push for a yes vote in the December 2 referendum on the controversial constitutional reforms that would expand his powers.

"On December 2, when night falls, we will present to the world another great victory ... the victory of the 'yes'" vote, Chavez told the crowd.

"Of all the referendums, I have no doubt this coming one is the most important," he said. The "great objective is to approve the constitutional reform. Approve it so resoundingly that there is no doubt the great majority of Venezuelans say yes."
(snip)

The political opposition had not yet agreed on whether to fight the referendum or boycott it. Surveys indicate it has enough popular support to pass.
(snip/)

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jLvhzlmkD_PNFWud2jEPw49u3tfA

[DrBlix]

56. VIVA CHAVEZ!!

[EFerrari]

53. How did this get reported?

Andale!

[yurbud]

68. somebody at a PR firm is going to be sent to bed without supper

[EFerrari]

94. My uncle and his family in El Salvador are pretty well off.

They basically live in cages and those photographs are their nightmare.

[Mosaic]

71. People power will win the day!

People power, the people will own everything. This is democratic. This is the way of the future, this is the way the United States must become sooner or later once people become educated as to how their corporate media hides and perpetuates a very corrupt economic system where everyone is a slave to a handful of corrupt executives who know the game, keep their secrets, and through mass media dumb down the peons they so need to keep it all going.

Chavez knows how this crap works in North America and he is putting a big stop to all the "system" and replacing it will people power, real democracy, real ownership by the folks. It's wonderful, but dark business lords here will try like hell to obfuscate the great achievements beyond selfish private ownership for the benefit of the few.

Bravo Hugo, keep going until all Latin America is free, then the entire world can work to be free of an obsolete fascist imperial capitalism as well. These are exciting times!

[Judi Lynn]

75. You're targeting points the propagandists ALWAYS ignore, Mosaic!

Can't let reality get in the way of good hate spew!

I hope you're right, and these times will continue in the spirit of the first breakthrough for human beings in Latin America we've witnessed!

Welcome to D.U.! :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:

[conspirator]

74. kick nt

[cali]

78. Swooning over ANY politician is a riot

and many in this thread are doing just that.

It's actually :rofl: to see it.

[Saboburns]

79. Yes

This leader I swoon over. These are people I swoon over.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many progressives do not understand a Democracy.

Fascinating.

[cali]

81. hero worship is not my thing

but hey, have at it. All humans are fallible. Hell, FDR interned Japanese Americans, Lincoln suspended Habeas. It's simply a good idea to remember that.

If you meet the Buddha in the road, kill him. Do you understand what that means?

[EFerrari]

92. Have either of you actually READ the proposed reforms?

Either of you know ANYTHING about the process Venezuela just went through?

It never ceases to amaze me how ilinformed and judgmental some people who purport to be progressives are.

[BornagainDUer]

111. Like you swooned after the anti-chavistas. What a hypocrite.

[bitchkitty]

85. Wish I'd been there. Viva Chavez! n/t

[IsItJustMe]

86. It's a shame that the right wingers in this country worry more about Chavez, than someone like

Gen. Pervez Musharraf. Just goes to show you the power of folks like Bush and Robertson have over our msm and thus the masses. The insanity in this country is profound.

[EFerrari]

91. I think that is a very fair statement.

Bush is handing out medals this morning and talking about democracy. The cognitive dissonance could make heads explode.

[MUSTANG_2004]

159. I get your point about Chavez

in that I don't see why the US is so focused on him as a villain, but not sure why you say we should be worrying about Musharraf. While Pakistan is somewhat unstable and has nuclear weapons, my concern isn't Musharraf, it's with whoever might replace Musharraf.

[DuaneBidoux]

95. Totally cool! Do opponents have those same rights? That would be cool too.

[Acadia Blue]

100. They should have the same rights. I hope they do.

[slackmaster]

101. Apparently not

Just put "venezuela protests" into a Google news search or any other suitable medium.

[EFerrari]

106. Try "venezuela student protest" and enjoy the coverage of

the Guccis! Make sure you check out the Reuters photo coverage. Some really pretty blonde girls in tears. :)

[EFerrari]

105. Of course they do. What they don't have is the numbers.

Middle of last week the AP ran a story about "thousands" of anti-Chavez protestors -- a claim that was not verified by the Reuters pix of the event.

[DuaneBidoux]

158. Well how can they not have the numbers when he is always reeleced with 80%?

[EFerrari]

161. If we used the same election systems, Bush would never

have occupied the White House.

[BornagainDUer]

109. K&R!! Viva Chavez!! What kind of a dictator decentralizes control?

Chavez is the real deal. All of his moves are designed to help the people, even while this fascist US adminstration tries to gum up the works. It is a brilliant move. The US, even with heavy infiltration of the society, will be unable to buy off the political sector!

[EFerrari]

115. A really bad dictator decentralizes control.

lol

:toast:

[Judi Lynn]

121. Gee, if he keeps this up, there won't be anything left for him to do! He needs to sharpen those

"dictator" skills!

Don't you wonder why it is there was never any kind of a PR campaign against Efrain Rios Montt, Pinochet, Hugo Banzer, Stroessner, Carlos Andres Perez, the Brazilian military junta (Kissinger-supported) which destroyed 30,000 people, etc., etc., etc., and all the bodies of suspected "leftists" being thrown from airplanes and helicopters by right-wingers in Argentina, Brazil, Chile, etc., etc. all those years?

Must have been a 30 to 40 year oversight!

[EFerrari]

123. Or maybe Mr. Chavez knows nothing about helicopter technology.

He is very dark, you know. :sarcasm:

[Judi Lynn]

125. Oh, good one! n/t

[EFerrari]

126. I've never said that out loud or in type but it's always been

in the back of my mind.

It could have been said about my grandfather: Who is this indio to have to much influence, to put together so much talent, to challenge imperialism with his accent and his out of the box thinking? Who the hell does he think he is?

And who the hell does Harry Belafonte think he is? Or Sean Penn, or Cindy Sheehan or the Dalai Lama or Amy Goodman or Greg Palast or The Nation or so many truly dedicated progressive advocates for human rights think he is?

How is it that ALL of them are so right about most things but so WRONG about Mr. Chavez?

:)

[Judi Lynn]

129. It comes when "the dark ones" gain power over the minds of others!

They do secret things, stronger than the power of propaganda. They can penetrate the propaganda fog and tap the minds of unsuspecting progressives, binding them to their will!

[BornagainDUer]

135. I tell you Chavez is either a genius, or he has some incredibly brilliant

advisers. I mean this strategy is impossible to subvert!!

:woohoo: :bounce:

[Bo]

128. Ten years later Venezuelans will be wondering how to get him out of office

....just like Fujimori....

[Judi Lynn]

131. Chavez has always represented the vast ignored poor sector of his country,

which was marginalized and brutalized by previous administrations.

Not the story with Fujimori, as you should well know, who employed death squads against the vast poor population.

[Andrushka]

151. If those Venezuelans

are still boycotting referenda or elections, and continuing to sabotage the democratic process they have there, then I wouldn't be surprised if he is still there.

[BornagainDUer]

133. The Roman Catholic church doesn't want Chavez. What T. Jefferson says:

"In every country and in every age, the priest has been
hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the
despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection
to his own"
Thomas Jefferson, 1814


Where does the Catholic Church get its protection? The same place Nazi's found a safe passage after WWII--Rome.

[Megahurtz]

160. Go People! Go Chavez!