Illegal immigrants not U.S. health care burden: study

[EFerrari]

Source: Reuters

Mon Nov 26, 4:14 PM ET

CHICAGO (Reuters) - Illegal Latino immigrants do not cause a drag on the U.S. health care system as some critics have contended and in fact get less care than Latinos in the country legally, researchers said on Monday.
ADVERTISEMENT

Such immigrants tend not to have a regular doctor or other health-care provider yet do not visit emergency rooms -- often a last resort in such cases -- with any more frequency than Latinos born in the United States, according to the report from the University of California's School of Public Health.

The finding from Alexander Ortega and colleagues at the school was based on a 2003 telephone survey of thousands of California residents, including 1,317 undocumented Mexicans, 2,851 citizens with Mexican immigrant parents, 271 undocumented Latinos from countries other than Mexico and 852 non-Mexican Latinos born in the United States.

About 8.4 million of the 10.3 million illegal aliens in the United States are Latino, of which 5.9 million are from Mexico, the report said.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071126/us_nm/immigrants_health_dc

[Wickerman]

1. You mean the whole "drag on the U.S. health care system" argument

is simply more racism? :wow: color me shocked! :sarcasm:

[OKthatsIT]

180. The Federal Reserve(private cartel) wants the immigrant influx

Come on people...put your thinking caps on.

They own the media and they want the revenue. They'll tell you whatever they have to tell you, to get you to feel shame, guilt about the Mexican plight. A plight-blight they created in Mexico. So immigrants find the only solution is to go to the US for work. Cool, the banks love it! Their labor will be taxed..and it goes straight into the banking cartel.

Please. The banks don't give a damn about borders or laws.

[saltpoint]

2. How DARE Mexicans and other Central and South American parents come

to our country to work for higher wages so their children can have a chance at good health care, good schooling, better opportunity?

How DARE they?

They are born in more modest means than the U.S. average and they have the nerve to love their children and want for them a better life?

That is goddamned outrageous.

We can't stand for it. I'm writing a fat check to Tom Tancredo's campaign RIGHT NOW.

__________

I believe in the accuracy of your stats here, sfexpat, but if there were no statistics to bolster their claim, the very young and the very old in the families who migrate here deserve dignity. Our laws and our leaders should make a point to reflect that.

One can try to see it in human terms so we can allow for humane treatment where it is so absolutely deserved.

Thank you for this post.

[EFerrari]

3. Wickerman and Old Crusoe, you made me laugh out loud.

Thank you. :loveya:

[MercutioATC]

4. Polling illegal immigrants on whether they tax social programs....

...interesting way of getting the numbers you want....


(to be fair, the article's stats on who was polled isn't comprehensive)

[EFerrari]

5. The numbers you want?

:shrug:

The undocumented workers I know go to great lengths never to come into contact with any figure of authority because it is dangerous.

I don't believe it is a good idea to have a whole underclass of workers in this country who has no resort to the law. And, I do not favor punishing workers.

/ack

[MercutioATC]

6. The poll was directed toward undocumented workers....

...or at least that's what the stated poll participants suggest.

Essentially, they asked people who entered this country illegally if they were causing the rest of us any problems....and they said "no".

you don't see a methodology issue with this?

[EFerrari]

7. No, they were asked how often they accessed health care.

And it turns out, surprise, surprise, that these undocumented people access our system less often.

And that is consistent with not exposing yourself to risk of deportation.

Btw, the undocumented workers I've known pay cash for everything and they pay more. Because when you have no recourse to the law, that's what you have to do.

[downindixie]

8. If illegals take

any money from the tax payer they are a drag on our system.Please get that thru your heads!

[DBoon]

9. and if they pay taxes they aren't?

So you would refund them all the taxes they have paid, directly and indirectly?

And should landlords that collect rent from illegal immigrants be forced to repay that rent?

Or do you expect illegals to come here, work for free, pay all the proper taxes, and receive absolutely no benefits?

You do know that illegal immigrants are paying in huge amounts to social security that they will likely never collect? So you want your social security benefits reduced by that much?

[EFerrari]

11. I wonder if Social Security would collapse if undocumented workers

were taken out of the equation. I'm not sure it wouldn't.

[Megahurtz]

33. Would You Please Explain How

a person working "under the table" pays into Social Security? It boggles my mind! :sarcasm:

[wishlist]

42. They use Social Sec numbers belonging to Americans (fake SS cards)

They buy fake but very legitimate appearing Social Security cards with a legitimate number belonging to a citizen but their name (the illegal's) typed on it. Employers put them on the payroll and pay in Social Sec and Medicare payroll taxes as well as other tax withholdings on that number. The employers are supposed to verify with SS Administration that the number belongs to that person, but many do not verify. This has been going on for more than 20 years and the feds have been reluctant to ever crack down on the employers to enforce the rules. Social Secu Admin does detect the name discrepancy and removes those wages from that SS number so the real number holder never gets the benefit of those wage postings and neither does the illegal worker.

I know how widespread this practice is because I worked with Soc Sec Admin for many years.

[Megahurtz]

92. A Great Number Of Them

work "under the table" and are not listed on any payroll.

[EFerrari]

93. They do whatever is least likely to get them busted.

And they all still pay sales tax whenever they buy anything.

[EFerrari]

10. You mean, like sales tax? Or what about those Social Security

accounts they pay into and can never get paid back from?

This has got to be the biggest rip off of any group in modern history. Please get that through your head.

[yardwork]

12. They are human beings, not "illegals." And they contribute more than they take.

Get that through your head. And it's spelled "through." Not "thru." This isn't a fast food joint.

[proud2BlibKansan]

20. What money are they taking from tax payers?

My head is having trouble figuring that out.

[Critters2]

30. You men besides lowered wages

or loss of jobs?

[proud2BlibKansan]

124. Who pays those wages?

Who decides that poor immigrants are worthy of lower salaries than American workers?

Not the immigrants.

[McCamy Taylor]

13. Health care is cheaper in Mexico. Probably safer, given the language barrier

Some undocumented workers go home to get meds and to seek health care, assuming they get sick. Workers tend to be a young, healthy population.

Funny thing is, lots of people, Anglo as well as Latino U.S. citizens cross the border into Mexico to buy meds and to seek health care, too, because it is reasonably priced down there. If you live in a border state, it is quite common to find people who make regular trips to get their prescriptions in Neuovo Laredo and places like that.

[Alcibiades]

14. It would appear methodologically sound

Unless the illegal immigrants had some reason to underreport their contacts with service providers.

That being said, the contention that illegal immigration poses a cost to our healthcare system was never based on the claim that illegal immigrants have more service contacts than US citizens, Latino or otherwise. From a public health perspective, if costs and use of health-care services are related, they tend to be negatively related, as those who get more service have more preventative care and cost the system less in the long run. (On edit: I mean among fairly healthy people. Contacts for the very sick will obviously also be very high.)

The claim that illegal immigration poses a cost to our healthcare system is based on the charge (which I don't know has been documented or not) that illegal immigrants tend to show up at emergency rooms, where they know they cannot be denied service on the basis of an ability to pay, and then provide false information about their true identity and address, thereby stiffing any attempt at collection. Supposedly, this is made easier by the "fact" (again, I have not seen this documented) that many illegal immigrants already have documents with fake identities and wrong addresses.

Anyway, this is a bad measure of the supposed problem. A better measure might be to ask if the respondents ever provided incorrect billing information to a healthcare service provider.

I don't see anyone crying about the injustice of the fact that US citizens are better served by the healthcare system than illegal immigrants. What we should do is offer citizenship to all illegal immigrants and universal healthcare to everyone in the US, whether a citizen or not.

[Gormy Cuss]

22. Did you find a methodology report ?

I searched and came up with nothing online about this specific study. I'd be interested to see the question set used as well as the respondent selection protocol. I wonder where the researchers obtained the comparative use statistic too. I'm guessing they recycled questions from the California Health Interview because they could then compare the Latino-specific poll to the results in that survey.

[EFerrari]

23. I didn't even know there was such a thing. Cool! I learned something.

I'd like to see it, too, if it exists. When I knock off, I'll go fish.

[Alcibiades]

34. No, actually, I was talking out of my ass

One of the earlier posts raised the issue of relying on the self-reports of respondents, and raised this as a methodological concern. I didn't intend to speak to the entire methodology of the project. I have no basis for evaluating that. I probably should have replied to that post directly. This may be a problem, but if it is, it's a big problem for a lot of social scientists. This is a reliability issue.

My own concern is one that I think addresses a more serious matter, which is that "number of service contacts" (whether based on self-reports or some other data) is simply not a valid measure of the cost of illegal immigration to the healthcare system or to the taxpayer, for reasons I described above. This is a validity issue, and much more serious than the problem with using data obtained from self reports. In other words, I'm claiming that the "methodology" (an over-broad term for which I apologize) is completely wrong from the point at which the researchers came up with this project.

As you point out, it seems probable that they chose this invalid measure of "the cost of providing healthcare to illegal immigrants" simply based on the availability of data. Which is completely ass-backward and makes my head want to explode. The author's bio from the UCLA School of Public Health claims "Professor Ortega is an expert on the application of epidemiological methods in health services research..." He Has taught at Yale and earned his Ph.D. at Michigan.

Of course, this could just be bad reporting. It could be that Prof. Ortega addressed the issue of measurement validity in his paper. That's been known to happen. Then again, it's also been the case that complete and total idiots have spent time at Yale.

[Gormy Cuss]

46. I can say from personal experience that there are lots of complete idiots who spent time at Yale

and the rest of the top-tier graduate schools. A few of them have degrees in Piled higher and Deeper, if you know what I mean.

I think your core concern is valid. That's why I'd like to see the actual report and look for a discussion of limitations to the study, because there almost always is such a thing in responsible social science research. I'd also like to see how the respondents were asked about their access because if the results are based on one or two questions than the results are weaker than if they are based on a broader set of measures.

[customerserviceguy]

63. "A better measure might be to ask if the respondents ever provided incorrect billing information..."

Sorry, but asking the people gaming the system about their possible lies to medical providers, or their citizenship status, or even if they utilized medical services, is not going to give reliable results.

[dailykoff]

15. You mean we've been lied to?

Perish the thought.

[Hulk]

16. Hey...this makes it all too complex for the simple minded....please, don't confuse them....

....they just hate people of color, basically, and to muddle the excuses they pin on these people makes it hard to play their nintendo, watch their nascars go in circles while guzzling down beers, and might confuse them into thinking they really don't have a valid reason for hating Latinos.

Just leave them alone, tell them Hillary is the devil, Democrats are really a cover for socialist/communists, and universal health care will RUIN the smooth medical system we have in this country. Besides, the war is going great, we are finally winning...after just short of 4000 military deaths, THOUSANDS of military wounded and traumatized, and HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of Iraqis killed and God only knows how many wounded or traumatized.

Keep life simple...for we are a nation of church going, God fearing, flag waving baboons.

[boilinmad]

176. I couldnt.....

.....have said it better. THANK YOU !!:applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:

[silverojo]

17. Yeah, right

Tell that to the hospitals who have gone under because of so many people getting what amounts to free care. Anybody with a functioning brain cell knows that, if any business provides too many services for free, they won't survive.

Note that this "research" was done by a Latino. No bias there. :sarcasm:

[EFerrari]

18. That's right. We're doing the research Amerikans don't want to do.

:rofl:

[Megahurtz]

32. Niiice....

[sam sarrha]

19. without insurance it cost an extra $1000 for any treatment in ER, in el paso i payed an extra $580

a year in property taxes for free medical care for residents of Juarez to cross and have babys in the usa... for free.

so there is cost considering how many home owners there are in el paso with a population of 700,000.. just for an example.

[proud2BlibKansan]

21. So do we owe them for the dental care US citizens get in Mexico?

Then there are the prescription drugs too. I wonder how much that bill would be.

[EFerrari]

24. Millions "lost" by the Pentagram but we worry that someone

got an antibiotic at an ER for "free".

We really have no grasp on Public Health in this country. None whatsoever.

[juno jones]

25. Thank you

for the sane freaking comment SF.

Medicine is not a buisness, it is a human right.

When will we collectively get that thru the tiny heads?

Lots of uninsured americans not coming into contact with the current health system either.

[EFerrari]

26. This culture has serious issues with family and community

and it comes back to bite us particularly in this area of community health.

We can't stand to see a poor person get an aspirin for free. We'd rather demonize them -- and catch their fever. It's simply irrational. Not to mention, stupid and inhumane. We'd rather scapegoat undocumented workers than understand how they came to be here and what it means for us ALL that they are here and that we share more in common with them than we do with the 1% that manages the wealth in this country.

And now Skinner has to ban me for being a pinko. :)

[Megahurtz]

31. Uhhhh....

U.S. Citizens pay up front for their Medical Care when they go to Mexico ya think?

[proud2BlibKansan]

39. And they pay practically nothing

It's just one more way of taking advantage of cheap Mexican labor.

[LanternWaste]

60. Odd thing though-- I was never asked to pay up front...

Yup-- I paid 250 pesos ($25 U.S. dollars) after a serious bronchial infection, three days in the hospital and all of the prescriptions when I lived there. Odd thing though-- I was never asked to pay up front.

Thanks to the generosity of the Mexican people. Maybe we could learn a few things from them...

[EFerrari]

61. One of the ironies. The Mexican people are, in my experience,

one of the most generous and inclusive cultures in the world.

Proof that no good deed goes unpunished.

[Megahurtz]

91. My Only Point Being

is that when U.S. Citizens go to Mexico for Medical Treatment they pay for their treatment
and they don't get it for, nor do they expect to get it for, FREE. :think:

[hunter]

100. Good for them.

Have you ever had a medical bill you can't pay?

If you haven't yet, you probably will. It's a lot of fun, and it trains you not to worry too much about collection agencies. When they call you outside of the rules, say at seven o'clock on a Sunday morning, you get this little twinge of satisfaction turning the tables on them and listening to them squirm.

But enough of that, I'm so happy today. Our family just passed the annual $10,000 deductable on our medical insurance (that's in addition to the greater amount we've already paid in premiums) so now I can get all my medical care like it's free!

I'm gonna get all the prescriptions and medical procedures I can before the new year starts! Maybe even talk my doctor into signing me up for a colonoscopy!!!

:Woohoo:

The God Damned Bloody Hell I am. And I especially intend to stay out of the crowded E.R., 'cause I'd probably end up sitting next to a person puking into a bag and another person coughing their lungs out with an active case of TB, and across from some scared mom holding a screaming kid who has a broken arm.

The only people I know who enjoy going to the doctor for free have very specific sorts of mental illnesses, and that's probably something that should be treated too.

What's your point again?

[Megahurtz]

101. Lol!

You're funny!:) Yes, unfortunately I have Medical Bills I cannot pay.

[hunter]

102. Maybe I am funny.

But the way it is now, undocumented aliens who show up in the E.R. for serious and expensive conditions, say for example metastatic breast cancer, get at best palliative care. Mostly they go home and die without making a lot of trouble because they don't want to put their undocumented relatives at risk of deportation.

You don't see patients like Elizabeth Edwards in the population of undocumented workers. They are already dead.

Health care rationing is a very real thing in the United States -- we simply don't talk about it, or we rationalize it as something else.

Basic healthcare, the kind of community healthcare that keeps us all safe from communicable diseases and spares us from encountering decaying beggars on every street corner, is relatively inexpensive. A wealthy nation like the United States can afford that kind of healthcare without any sort of immigration status check at the clinic door.

[Megahurtz]

103. The E.R.'s Unfortunately

treat everyone like that who doesn't have money if they are legal residents or not. They don't care, it's all about the money, and these days they have a real nasty attitude about it.

>>>"Basic healthcare, the kind of community healthcare that keeps us all safe from communicable diseases and spares us from encountering decaying beggars on every street corner, is relatively inexpensive. A wealthy nation like the United States can afford that kind of healthcare without any sort of immigration status check at the clinic door."<<<

So true, and that's a big problem. The wealthy U.S. is sending all their money to other Countries (because of bogus Wars etc.) and none is being spent here towards our broken Healthcare System.
I guess that's why there is so little to go around here at home for those who cannot afford. :(

[EFerrari]

151. You are complaining that ERs treat sick people no matter what?

Holy mother of god.

[Bridget Burke]

51. How about a list of those hospitals?

I've been hearing about them for a long time. But no details are ever offered.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

160. The person who did your "hospital" thing was a white supremacist.

No bias there either.

:eyes:

http://www.villagevoice.com/people/0746,arellano,78357,24.html

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Wcross]

28. sfexpat2000. Explain to me why illegal immigration is a good thing.

I can't help but wonder why you are such a cheerleader for illegal immigration. I don't understand your undying love of those who break our laws.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_immigration_to_the_United_States

Main article: Economic impact of illegal immigrants in the United States
Research by George Borjas, Jeffrey Grogger, and Gordon H. Hanson found that a 10-percent immigrant-induced increase in the supply of a particular skill group reduced the black wage by 4.0 percent, lowered the employment rate of black men by 3.5 percentage points, and increased the incarceration rate of blacks by almost a full percentage point. <19>
Paul Samuelson, a Nobel prize-winning economist from MIT, concurs asserting that there is no unitary, singular effect, good or bad, that arises from illegal immigration, but instead a variety of effects on Americans depending on their economic class. Samuelson posits that wealthier Americans tend to benefit from the illegal influx, while poorer Americans tend to suffer.<20><21>
Research by George Borjas, Robert W. Scrivner Professor of Economics and Social Policy at Harvard University, shows that the average American's wealth is increased by less than 1% by illegal immigration. The effect on wages for middle class individuals was an overall wealth increase. However, illegal immigrants had a long-term reduction of wages among American poor citizens during the 1980s and 1990s by 4.8%<22>.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


It's kind of hard to turn MY back on our poorest most vulnerable citizens in favor of a person whose first act in coming here was breaking our laws.


As far as this "study" there is the question of USING health care and then there is the question of who is PAYING for it.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- June 10—Workers with health care insurance are paying extra costs to cover health care for the 48 million Americans without insurance, according to a new report. In 2005, premiums for employer-provided family health insurance are expected to cost, on average, an extra $922, $1 of every $12 spent for employer-provided health insurance, to cover the costs of providing health care to the uninsured.
http://www.aflcio.org/issues/healthcare/ns06102005.cfm
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While it is obvious that not all uninsured people are illegal aliens, very few businesses that employ illegal aliens offer any health care benefits. While it isn't a crime to be uninsured we aren't doing anyone a favor by encouraging MORE uninsured individuals into our health care system.

Yep, call me a "racist" if it helps. Call me xenophobic if you will. There is a line already formed for legal immigration into our country. Take your place in line if you want to come live here.

Before I go I would like to point out one more issue.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Remittances
Remittances, or contributions sent by Mexicans living abroad, mostly in the United States, to their families at home in Mexico, are a substantial and growing part of the Mexican economy; they comprised $18 billion in 2005.<48> In 2004, they became the second largest source of foreign income after crude oil exports, roughly equivalent to foreign direct investment (FDI) and larger than tourism expenditures; and represented 2.5 percent of the nation's Gross Domestic Product.<49> The growth of remittances has been remarkable: they have more than doubled since 1997. Recorded remittance transactions exceeded 41 million in 2003, of which 86 percent were made by electronic transfer.<38>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Mexico
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

18 billion dollars that doesn't get spent here in the United States. If that 18 billion remained in our economy how many jobs would that produce? I wonder if that 18 billion circulated in our economy might lift some people up out of poverty. The total that exits our economy is 41 billion dollars a year if you count total remittances to all foreign countries.

Please tell me why you are such a fan of illegal immigration & why it benefits all Americans.

[Megahurtz]

29. The Most Excellent Post On Illegal Immigration

I've seen yet explaining the truth in detail and it deserves a standing ovation!
And after your post I'm just dying to know the answer too!

[Starbucks Anarchist]

35. Why do you care about remittances?

It's money they earned, and they're trying to feed their families back home.

Of course, the families could sneak over here, which would keep the immigrants' money within the U.S., but then you'd probably complain about them sneaking over in the first place.

[Wcross]

37. It is pretty simple.

That money is syphoned right off the top of our economy never to do any good for other Americans. That labor done in our economy is not benefiting our economy. It isn't a question of earning the money, it is the fact that it does not circulate in our economy. If you review the portion on remittances I was pretty clear on why I should "care". What good does it do American citizens for that money to leave our economy?

[AlphaCentauri]

52. It may circulate in our economy

What about they buying US imports in their own countries.

[Bridget Burke]

53. Yep--those "remittances" are an old problem.

In the 19th century, lots of "our" money went overseas.

http://museum.cl.msu.edu/Exhibitions/Virtual/ImmigrationandCaricature/7572-133.html

Even worse, some of that money paid for tickets to the USA.

www.yale.edu/glc/archive/969.htm

[EFerrari]

58. Another false premise. Show me definitively that this money

does not circulate in our economy. Thanks.

[Wcross]

77. The Majority of it doesn't.

If the money is remitted outside of our country it is unlikely to reappear. Is this money spent at local businesses where it was earned? No, it is sent to a foreign country where it is used to buy local goods & services.

[EFerrari]

79. Prove it doesn't circulate here.

Thanks!

[Wcross]

82. You want me to prove a negative?

How about you prove that money sent overseas is spent here in the United States?

[EFerrari]

98. Your claim, your responsibility. n/t

[Wcross]

125. You claim money sent out of the country is spent here.

I say it is spent in the local economy where it is sent. How does someone from Monterey spend money in the United states? How does money sent to Caracas find its way back into our economy?
You want me to PROVE the money is not spent here? I can prove it is sent out of our country. That's all I need to prove.

[hunter]

137. A dollar is an IOU. If it doesn't come back, that's good too.

It's as if you write a check to someone and they never cash it.

The way our banking system is structured, money "lost" this way is simply replaced by the Federal Reserve and rechanneled back into the domestic economy.

It's not good for our exporters, but overall it's as if we are getting whatever work is done for money that never comes back home again for free.

[AlphaCentauri]

106. Latinos buy Wendys, Pizza Inn, coca cola, cold stone.....

in latinamerica

:shrug:

[proud2BlibKansan]

127. And they pay rent and buy all the food they need

in Latin America too! While they live here. :sarcasm:

[Wcross]

142. You obviously don't know what a remittance is.

Money directly transferred via western Union to their home countries. It is not money they spend here in our local economy like other wages earners do.

[proud2BlibKansan]

144. You said:

"Is this money spent at local businesses where it was earned? No, it is sent to a foreign country where it is used to buy local goods & services."

We proved you wrong and now you are accusing me of not knowing simple definitions. How sweet.

[Name removed]

150. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AlphaCentauri]

152. Pedro in Monterrey drives a Ford pickup.....

while John in St. Louis makes a living assembling Ford Pickups, the money that Pedro paid for his Ford Pickup is "remitted" to a bank in America. is that an economic "cycle"?

[Wcross]

154. Still having trouble?

In your example an import was purchased by Pedro. The truck is shipped from Louisville (Ford doesn't have a truck plant in St. Louis) to Mexico. The truck is exchanged for the purchase price in cash. That is not a remittance, that is an export.

An individual earns a paycheck here in the United States. He goes down to Western Union and sends half his paycheck back home. That money is then spent by those that receive the money in the local economy where it was sent. Contrast that to other workers here that do not send money out of the country. They spend the majority of their paychecks in the local economy which benefits the community. Money sent overseas does not benefit the economy where it was earned.

[hunter]

161. I'm having lots of trouble with that.

Do you know what money is?

Wal-Mart sucks more money out of communities than illegal aliens do, and Wal-Mart is not producing anything at all in those communities, they are simply increasing the economic power of China.

Gasoline stations suck more money out of a community than the illegal aliens do, and they blast huge amounts of this money to people in nations who hate the United States with an intense passion.

At least the money that goes to Mexico is going to people who are happy to the have relatives working here. Some of the money we sent to Saudi Arabia came back and kicked us hard in the gut on 9/11.

[Wcross]

162. Uh, still not getting it?

If one spends money at walmart they receive a product in return. Lets say they buy toilet paper. They exchange cash for the paper. A cashier has a job, the stocker has a job, the truck driver who delivered it has a job. The shareholders earn a profit & Scott tissue is able to sell a package of toilet paper, the local government gets sales taxes.
A dollar sent off shore does nothing for anyone but the relatives of the illegal aliens that send it. I bet they are happy, all they had to do was export a human being to receive residual income! WOOHOO!

[EFerrari]

165. You know, of all the undocumented workers I've known,

I've never heard ONE of them talk about other people the way you talk about them.

[hunter]

166. This is astonishing...

:shrug:

Think a bit. What are we paying the undocumentsed workers for?

We are paying them to work, and we are paying them with notes that can be created from nothing in the case of computer accounts, or the cost of paper and ink in the case of dollar bills.

If these undocumented workers send money to their relatives, and spend less money at Wal-Mart, then less of that money goes to China, and the benefits of the work stay in the community.

Let's say you have a resort hotel that employs a lot of undocumented workers. This resort hotel probably brings a huge amount of money into the community in comparison to the amount of money the illegal aliens send home to their relatives.

But a busy gas station, or a Wal-Mart paying low wages to a few clerks simply drains money out of the community. The economic chain dead ends entirely when you burn the gas, or the stuff you bought at Wal-Mart breaks or wears out and ends up in the trash.

[boilinmad]

177. I guess the question should be...

...do you think theyre sending EVERY CENT back to Mexico. No. They still have to live and eat and drink and buy gas and clothing etc, etc, etc, here, and they spend money doing that. RIGHT???

[proud2BlibKansan]

155. Yes we proved you wrong

They DO spend money right here in the good ole USA. You are implying they do not.

Now you are being infantile. Am I supposed to feel intimidated because you are gossiping via PM about me? Please. Grow the fuck up.

[Wcross]

157. So the term remittance is just flying right over your head.

Do you not understand the term? Of course they spend SOME of their earnings here. The issue is the 41 billion dollars that leaves our economy directly via western union every year. A normal worker does not export his earnings to a foreign country. I NEVER implied they did not spend some of their money here. Wake up.

I was just commenting about what was sent to me in a couple of P.M.'s from other members of D.U. you have managed to piss off. Not gossip, they were right.

[EFerrari]

163. When that money leaves, it doesn't really leave

because for all practical purposes, we control Mexico's economy. You wake up.

[Wcross]

172. "WE" don't control Mexico's economy.

Joe, who is an illegal alien receives his pay. Joe ALWAYS sends half of his pay back home to Mexico. Joe spends his OTHER half in the local economy.
Fred lives here. He spends his entire check right here at home.

Having Fred as a local worker is far better for his town than Joe is. Fred doesn't earn SHIT from any foreign country. Fred SURE as hell doesn't benefit from having Joe move to town and drive down labor rates of pay.

"When that money leaves, it doesn't really leave" WTF! 41 billion dollars is not passed through the economy where it is earned. Something is very wrong with that.

[proud2BlibKansan]

178. And if Fred buys a Ford that was made in Mexico . . .

:)

[hunter]

179. Nah, he'll probably buy some crap made in China. Or a tank of gas...

We'd all be better off if Fred hired some undocumented workers to tidy up his front yard, wouldn't we? Knowing Fred, who seems to be too attached to his big screen television to do yardwork, that would increase the value of all the homes on his street.

[Megahurtz]

95. I'm sure you already know.

[hunter]

36. Personally, I think the U.S. should hand Minnesota over to Canada.

Let Canada have them all. That way, all those funny talking Minnesotans who sneak into California to escape the harsh winters, take our jobs, and have their little toe headed anchor babies can be deported, most especially the Lutherans.

My point is that my own patriotism is for an idealized United States that does not exist, a land where laws are made to protect the rights of all men, women, and children, most especially those who live within our boarders.

I don't remember signing up anywhere to be born in the United States. I might have been born someplace worse. I gained my U.S. citizenship by accident, and so did my parents, and their grandparents. The last my ancestors immigrated to America was more than a hundred years ago, and most of them left home not so much for the opportunity here, but for the lack of it in Europe.

A nation that writes laws which discriminate between otherwise lawful and peaceful people, a nation that enforces laws that violate very basic human rights, is not worthy of my respect. I have to make do as an accidental citizen with my hope that the nation of Martin Luther King might do better than to value a human being on a balance sheet and the circumstance of their birth.

[Wcross]

38. If you are feeling guilty about your circumstances you can renounce it.

Go ahead and renounce your citizenship if you feel guilty. The fact of the matter is we have laws regarding immigration. Just because YOU feel guilty you want to see our working poor suffer?
Sorry that you are an accidental American. Please tell me without the guilt trip why illegal immigration is a good thing for American citizens?

[proud2BlibKansan]

41. And those laws discriminate against anyone from Central America

You obviously need to study up on them. Maybe you can find some information on Wikipedia.

Why is it okay that if you are a white skinned European, you can come here no problem, but if you are a brown skinned person from Mexico or Guatemala or Nicaragua, you are not welcome?

[Wcross]

67. My ancestors immigrated in accordance with the laws.

I am against anyone who violates our laws by coming here illegally to live. You try so hard to make it all about race when it is not. I welcome anyone who goes through the proper channels to immigrate legally.

If all you have is the race card, I can play that game. Why do you hate black people so much? Why are you so willing to cause them further economic harm and increased chances of going to prison?

[AlphaCentauri]

112. I don't know if there where laws back then

can you exposed what laws?

[proud2BlibKansan]

123. Mine came here illegally

So I refuse to be a hypocrite.

Study up on the laws that prohibit most Central Americans from coming here legally. Those kinds of laws were not in place when our ancestors came here. So it really isn't fair to compare them to today's immigrants.

[hunter]

50. I don't feel guilty about it, and I'm thinking of adding Tennessee to my list.

First Minnesota, then Tennessee. (Yep, I looked at your profile!)

Eventually I plan to be the leader of my own private nation, the nation of Califa, ruled by an imaginary queen with big bulging breasts, strong build, a broadsword, a golden shield, and a fierce temperament. I will deport anyone who is not contributing to my own private welfare or the welfare of those who choose to live by our nations laws and remain citizens.

:woohoo:

Well, you see where this is going...

If you ask me about my attitudes about immigration, without the hyperbole, it's that I must look at others as fellow human beings first and foremost. National origin is of no importance in any discussion of basic human rights.

When you look at any population of undocumented immigrants, they have the resources to support themselves, otherwise they would not be here. The same cannot be said for the population of U.S. born citizens.

The quickest way to solve the illegal immigration problem would be to increase the enforcement of labor laws that protect workers from unscrupulous employers, and to establish minimum wages that are actually high enough to raise people out of poverty. Labor enforcement should be blind to immigration status, and immigration raids should result in a company's management being hauled off in busses, rather than the workers.

Once these rules are established, work permits and drivers licenses should be easily obtainable by immigrants, and after a year or two of demonstrated work history or family support (for example, marriage or domestic partnership), permanent residency status should be granted.

Our current immigration policies are very clearly the product of the inherent U.S. tendency toward racism and fascism. Laws must not be created and enforced to protect the current order of a society, but to protect basic human rights.

[EFerrari]

57. Please explain why you blame workers for the failure of your government

to enforce its own laws. Is it just because they are brown and speak a funny language? What?

[Wcross]

69. There are three reasons in my post.

Just give me one reason why we shouldn't control our borders and know who is living here. Tell me how it is harmless to your average American citizen. I can give you a reason why we should.



Yes, the government is not fulfilling its responsibilities. There is no reason for me to just accept this failure.

I appreciate your attempt to make me out to be a racist. It doesn't impress me much. You have no argument why illegal immigration is a good thing for Americans so you fall back on racism. I have to wait for a massive invasion of white english speaking people to enter this country illegally before I am allowed to speak up against it?

[EFerrari]

78. I don't actually have to do anything. You are doing a fine job

on your own of misrepresenting my position and of clarifying your own.

By the way, no Mexicans flew planes into buildings on 9/11. :hi:

[Wcross]

84. I thought we were talking about illegal immigration.

Just what is your position? You say illegal immigration is a wonderful thing. I say it should be stopped. Who said anything about Mexicans? The group of illegal aliens pictured did fly the planes.

[EFerrari]

97. Those people entered this country legally

or did you manage to forget that too?

It must be very hard to have to many boogey men in your world. I hope you work it out.

[Wcross]

121. Problem is they overstayed their visas.

That made them illegal aliens. Go figure.

[proud2BlibKansan]

40. Because they are her people being demonized

Her family.

Do ya get it now? :crazy:

[EFerrari]

59. Mostly, it's because I've known many of these people.

I've worked with them, shoulder to shoulder, in lots of different situations.

One of my cousins has family in Oaxaca. I've never met them but, that does make them family. :)

[proud2BlibKansan]

66. I have too

I teach their children. And I can't say enough good things about their culture and the good things they have brought to my school community.

[AmanAplan]

135. I have personally only known two "illegals" here in America

One was killed while raping an American woman and the other was
arrested and sent to prison for the same rape.

So much for anecdotal evidence.

[matcom]

136. you are so full of shit

[AlphaCentauri]

148. Do you know any legal raper?

:freak:

[AmanAplan]

158. Bingo!

Good catch. The prize of my thoughts are yours. Congrats.

ir "illegal" is just an overused word.

[Wcross]

70. So she is an illegal alien?

I did not know that.

[EFerrari]

80. If I were you, I would call ICE NOW!

:rofl:

[Megahurtz]

96. I Guess It Must Be Pretty Easy

for one to trample over and ruin others defending a cause that benefits oneself.

[proud2BlibKansan]

126. Which part of "her people" do you not understand?

[Wcross]

156. You are being clear as mud yet again.

"Her people", "Her family". Illegal immigration is being discussed. The only conclusion I can make is that she is an illegal alien. If she is an American then "Her people" are not being discussed. If by "Her people" you mean because she is Hispanic which makes other Hispanic people breaking our immigration laws somehow acceptable then I have to question that. Defending law breakers due to their race smells a little funny to me.

I would really prefer not to discuss it with her lap dog though.

[EFerrari]

167. I don't think you've been offensive enough yet. What else do you have?

You make broad brush statements about Latinos and now, you are tarring a respected DUer.

What a piece of work.

[hunter]

138. Shhhh.... Don't tell, I am.

I snuck in from Norway because of the fantastic welfare and healthcare system here in the U.S. If you are white and speak very good English like I do, you can put Liquid Paper over the names of any old birth certificate and Social Security card, present it to the DMV, and become an instant citizen! They even give you a brand new car.

[AlphaCentauri]

55. I do not think so...

Samuelson posits that wealthier Americans tend to benefit from the illegal influx, while poorer Americans tend to suffer

Middle class Americans are depending more on the immigrants labor than those wealthy ones. Actually there are no real programs to guide minorities out of poverty, none of the parties has implemented a program that would make a poor person rich, most they have done is the opposite.

[Wcross]

71. Uh, remember eco 101? Supply & demand?

If you increase the supply of workers it will lower the wage offered. I wonder about your reference to "programs". It doesn't take a program, it takes a living wage. It is hard to get a living wage when there is an endless supply of labor. As far as middle class Americans "depending" on immigrants labor (you left out the illegal part) please do tell............

[AlphaCentauri]

104. There are other factors not only labor supply and demand

Government intervention is the factor that affects the economy in this case, a living wage has never been affected by immigrantion but government regulation, the government establish the minimum wage not based in the labor supply and demand, corporations do. So if the federal government can manipulate many aspects of the economy like subsidizing farmers, mortgage companies and corporations to increase productivity or to lower prices, it can regulate and provide citizenship to the undocumented immigrant labor to push corporations to provide better living wages.

[High Plains]

139. Funny you should mention supply and demand.

I think that could explain why the US is full of undocumented workers. This is where the jobs are.

And as for the "they're breaking the law" meme, let me suggest that they are acting in accord with a more powerful law, the law of supply and demand.

Capital moves across borders, goods move across borders, jobs move across borders, why do we think people should not or will not move across borders?

It seems what we need to do is regulate our foreign labor supply. That would require guest worker programs, reforming the immigration laws and all that. Otherwise known as comprehensive immigration reform, which was rejected by the Congress under pressure from the Dobbsians and other nativist zealots.

[EFerrari]

56. I don't believe this system is a good one and I don't believe

it benefits anyone except the very wealthy.

Would you please explain to me how you can read this thread and come to those two false conclusions?

As I remember, you were one of the ones crowing about the Mexican "looters" during the fire when, as predicted, they turned out to be evacuees.

As I recall, you still owe several of us an apology for that gaffe.

And, can you explain your antipathy for these workers to me, progressive? In a rational manner? Why are you so quick to demonize these people when you are much more akin to them than to the monied interests that control both your lives? I've love to know that. Thanks.

[Wcross]

73. Uh, EXCUSE ME?

"As I remember, you were one of the ones crowing about the Mexican "looters" during the fire when, as predicted, they turned out to be evacuees."

NO, you proved that ONE group of people were innocent. You did not prove ANY OTHER people innocent. You certainly didn't address the people (all men) who admitted to being paid to take things of value, did you? The guys driving the two pickup trucks they filled with cots?
I owe NO apology. Please provide the links to BOTH posts. You will see we are talking about two DIFFERENT groups of people who were turned over to the feds. I really don't want to rehash that but I will if you insist.

Oh, here is your progressive answer. I fear that our own working poor are paying a HEAVY price. You may not consider suppressed wages a big deal but there are some who might disagree. Tell me how it helps our working poor? I fear we do not know WHO has entered our country. If the workers are needed we should increase our worker visa permits. We need to review our immigration policy.

You still haven't given a good explanation of why illegal immigration is good for America. Whats wrong with doing it the legal way?

[EFerrari]

81. No, we are talking about the same incident and that is just your dodge

and that has been established. What a sad evasion.

[Wcross]

83. I can see where this is going. Around & around.

Clearly you can not accept that two different groups of people were turned over to the feds. The fact that you found some evidence that one group was legitimately using the supplies exonerates EVERYONE arrested in your mind. I however never saw any evidence that the gentlemen who admitted to being PAID to take anything of value including the pickup truck full of cots were found to be innocent.
What a sad denial of the facts.

[EFerrari]

85. I didn't realize you were a writer of fiction.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=2157891

[Wcross]

122. I cut & pasted THIS article from sandiego.com

However, six people were caught stealing relief supplies yesterday from Qualcomm Stadium. An evacuee reported seeing them load two pickups and a car with cots and other items, leave and then return.
One in the group said they were being paid to take items of value, police Sgt. Jesse Ceseña said. The six, suspected of being illegal immigrants, were turned over to U.S. Border Patrol agents who were at the stadium to assist with relief efforts.
http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20071025/news_1 ...

Apparently you are confusing these people with the people you "cleared". Of course you refused to acknowledge there were more than one group of people turned over to the feds in that thread. I suspect you will refuse to acknowledge the facts now as well.

[EFerrari]

153. This is precisely the story that was debunked.

Thanks for pulling it up for us.

[AlphaCentauri]

108. Do you have a link for your evindence

names or news links?

[Gormy Cuss]

90. Oh for crying aloud. Sfexpat doesn't defend illegal immigration.

She defends illegal immigrants AKA undocumented workers. The people, not the practice.

[EFerrari]

94. I don't think it's possible for some people to get the difference.

That's okay.

[AlphaCentauri]

110. Some of them talk about the poor like immigrants where wealthy.... n/t

[Mountainman]

43. Funny people thing the poll is not accurate becuase they asked Latinos if they use the system.

If you asked non Latinos if Latinos use the system do you really think you would get the truth?

[EFerrari]

44. I think if you told most undocumented workers how much they are hated

here, they would be astonished that anyone thinks they're important enough to deserve that kind of attention.

They have been very successfully scapegoated for a number of things, from globalization to the housing crisis to our health care system failures.

[treestar]

47. Maybe they should ask a collection of Lou Dobbs fans

They'll tell the "truth." :sarcasm:

[sakabatou]

45. How long before FAUX labels this news as liberal bias?

[treestar]

48. This has been consistently proven for years

The anti-immigrant talking point straight out of Lou Dobbs is false, as are so many of them.

They even spout inconsistent ones - how do they manage to believe that the illegal immigrants are taking "our jobs" while going on welfare at the same time? I thought you went on welfare due to being out of work? And the spouters of this nonsense always have jobs - do they want that lawn mowing job left open and undone just in case they lose their desk job? When you ask them this, they change the subject, since they know that have no rational answer.

[Zorra]

49. It's pretty hard for me not to be skeptical of this "telephone survey",

given the information and "conclusions" presented in the article.

Even at 1.6 and 2.6 fewer doctor visits per group of undocumented workers, respectively, that seems to me to be a somewhat significant use of healthcare system resources.

No mention is made of method of payment for services, or how many of these services were paid for at reduced rates or provided for free on taxpayer money.

What kind of dog do the researchers have in the hunt?

And...,

"Hello? Oh, yes ma'am, I'm in the country illegally. Sure, I'll answer your questions."

Hmmm.

A sketchy survey at best.

[Bridget Burke]

54. Zorra is a Spanish word.

It means "vixen."

[Zorra]

74. Verdad.

Spell zorra backwards, and you get arroz, which is also a Spanish word.

It means "rice".

[EFerrari]

76. Now you're just trying to make me hungry.

:rofl:

[gorbal]

62. I'd like to se emore studies on this?

I lived in LA and I must say the Hispanic community was a joy to experience. I did see alot of sad peopke on the streets in LA however...I believe that has more to do with patient "dumping" of the mentally ill more than anything else.

[superconnected]

64. I don't care about health care burden or not.

I doubt they are.

My issue is that they are undocumented and they need to be documented or kicked out of the country.

Do you know HOW bad it is for the people living in areas highly concentrated with illegals? The crime is soaring and the police can't even trace the criminals to their previous crimes - they're undocumented.

When it didn't touch me, I didn't care about illegal. I though ah, poor person just wants a better life for their family. Now my opinion is we are getting the worst of the mexican population. In mexico city, there are doctors, lawyers etc. and they are making better lives for their familys right there. I don't care if these illegals are a drain or not, I want them charted so we can get the scum into the prisons like we try to get the american scum in, or I want them back out of our friggen country. Their quest for a better life can start just like the rest of Americas and Mexicos - with not over-riding the law and finding ways IN THE SYSTEM to get ahead. They can get in fucking line and apply for citizenship just like the ones who became legal, if they want to be here.

Excuse me for ranting about these derelicts, yet again. But I'm surrounded by them and I can't seem to ignore how they really belong in jail for breaking US law as they rip off the car stereos, run drugs, etc. Not all of them, just NEARLY all.

You guys don't want employers to hire them? Well how do they eat then? They HAVE to steal at that point. Which is where most of them are now. There's a reason they're living 12 to a 1 bedroom apt. friggen everywhere. They're not making enough even with the drugs and stealing. Is that a better life, on the run from the law? B.S. Send them home, and let them start over. Going the illegal route is not the way to a better life and their crimes - even sneaking into the country, should not be ignored.

If it were like afghanistan, I would sing a differnt tune and help people over the boarder. But it's mexico and these derelicts can do better, even there, and get here legally.

[hunter]

65. You can come over to my house and we can paint over the graffiti on my walls.

We can chat with the kids passing by who may or may not be carrying guns.

If things in your neighborhood are not good for you, it's difficult for me to understand why you can't imagine how things might be as bad or worse for more recent immigrants than yourself.

The quickest way to solve this problem would be to raise the minimum wage to a level where entire families could afford to rent something better than a drafty illegal garage addition, a level that would allow enough responsible adults to be at home when the kids are out of school to discourage them from joining gangs.

Most of all there has to be some hope that things will get better, otherwise the kids will join gangs, and crime will increase, because nobody will be in a position to care. It's the poverty and the corrosive sense of hopelessness that destroy communities, not all those people you are "surrounded by" whose names you don't know, whose culture you do not understand.

Employers look the other way and demand our government look the other way because they live in protected communities and profit greatly by the abuse of hard working and underpaid illegal immigrants. These employers don't have to go home every night to dangerous overcrowded neighborhoods controlled by gangs. But the recent immigrants don't really have any choices.

[superconnected]

111. I've said it many times here, that it's a proverty issue and we need

social programs. But nobody ever gets its.

I think the only way to beat the cycle is to get their kids to grow up in normal situations and not with illegals who steal to stay alive or work for so little they can barely make it. It just creates a second generation that doesn't see a way to get ahead otherwise. And you get, viola, my apt complex.

[EFerrari]

113. Do have a link for that? Because I'm pretty sure the data says

the second generation does better than their parents. Thanks.

[superconnected]

115. Did I quote an article?

I'm pretty sure I made a personal judgement call from living next to them.

Please post the link where it says I took that from the news. Thanks.

[EFerrari]

116. You asserted a fact. If you have nothing, that's fine!

:)

[superconnected]

117. I'm only going on life experience.

The rest pulled. I don't think I need to be rude.

[EFerrari]

128. This is an assertion of fact.

"I think the only way to beat the cycle is to get their kids to grow up in normal situations and not with illegals who steal to stay alive or work for so little they can barely make it. It just creates a second generation that doesn't see a way to get ahead otherwise."

I asked if you had any reason to believe this that you could share. Thanks!

[superconnected]

129. I did share my reason for believing this.

I cited my neighbors. Read my posts on this thread. The 23 yo that got killed last summer in the shoot out lived right next door- only a few feet from my door. He kept stealing our cars. He got my moms car twice and another neighbors car 4 times. And then there's the teens who killed the girl and put her body in the trunk in my parking lot. They did it so the female of the two could get in her boyfriends gangs. All three of these people are illegal aliens kids. Unfortunately, these are the circumstances I get to know their kids under. I live in a high crime area that was not high crime until the illegals moved in. I've lived there 16 years. It's only been like this the last 7. You should see what happens when I call the cops - everyone - adults, all, scatter running. It's the only weapon I have so they won't mess with me, but frankly the police don't make any dent in the thefts.

My experience is, they're living between 8-12 per 1 bedroom apt. The women are far more likely to have jobs then the men and the women are typically unmarried popping out a whole lot of kids (not that I care whether they're married or not, it's the amount of kids their popping out that bugs me.)

My current next door neighbor who replaced the kid that got shot (and his ton of inlaws who all moved right after the event), is another who is fostering between 8-15 people - we really can't figure out how many live there because there's just too many to tell, I also cant count how many babies, and they have people driving up at all hours of the night so we know they're selling drugs for a living. It's pretty obvious nobody is going to work everyday there.

[EFerrari]

131. Thanks for the response. Now I understand where you come from.

Mine is very different. The undocumented people I've known are hardworking, kind people that I could trust with anything. I'm sorry your experience is different.

[countryjake]

133. In Seattle this woman's body was stuffed in a trunk? When? Where?

Are you talking about Terilynn Gardner, the homeless Everett girl? Reports of violent crimes committed by undocumented immigrants aren't found very often in any Western wa newspapers; your stories intrigue me.

How do you know the parents of these three kids you've told about are not citizens?

[superconnected]

145. No this is everett washington, apts on casino rd. I don't want to give my address.

[hunter]

143. I've lived in interesting neighborhoods, and with kids too.

We once rented a house with bullet holes in the front of it. I remember the landlord showing us around, and we stood there for a second looking at the bullet holes (it was a really bad patch job, this landlord was a terrible handyman!) and he got all uncomfortable, but we didn't say anything and rented the house anyways because that was all we could afford at the time.

A couple of times there were shootings. Once I was in the backyard playing with the kids, and I heard gunshots very nearby and I quickly grabbed up the kids and we went inside to play games on the floor at the center of the house. Once you hear the police cars swarming outside you figure it's safe to come out. The ambulance took the guy who got shot away, and the fire department stayed behind to scrub all the blood off the sidewalk. The guy who got shot lived, but he got shot again a few months later after he was out of the hospital and died.

One evening I went out our back door to take out the trash and there was a guy holding a gun crouched down in the shadows, right next to the door. We were both sort of surprised, and I simply stepped back inside and locked the door. A few seconds later the police were running all over the place, some of them banging on our front door to make sure he wasn't in our house.

But it wasn't one of the really bad neighborhood in our city, so far as our city's neighborhoods go, and there were only a few rotten apples on the block and everyone knew who they were.

If you get to know your neighbors you will feel much safer, and maybe it'll open your eyes a little to the actual causes of this problem.

Where we live now is much better, but anything outside that isn't locked up -- bicycles, garden tools, etc., -- will disappear, and there is an ongoing problem with gang graffiti on the walls.

[hunter]

130. You claim "life experience" and you still call your neighbors "them."

I find that odd.

Wherever I've lived my neighbors are always my neighbors, and I'm part of that community simply because I live there, even if there are particular neighbors I don't get along with.

What do you consider a "normal" situation? What sorts of people might be "normal?" You don't seem to be including undocumented immigrants in that system of classification.

[judaspriestess]

105. wow you upgraded from calling them "peasants" to

derelicts and Mexicans. Thanks

[superconnected]

107. You're welcome.

You ought to move into my neighborhood.

You wont have to worry about stray bullets anymore because the next door neighbor got killed in a gun battle at the ripe age of 23 last summer.

At least he's not stealing our cars anymore.

Course you still have to worry about being murdered as they found another body in a trunk in my apt complex only a few months ago. A gal and her bf killed a white girl to get the gal into the gang. Ah, illegals kids. They're not anchor babies so they have to be illegal too. Health industry problem, heck, they're a society problem.

Please come and live next door to the illegals! It may open your mind to the REALITY of what kind of people are illegals - not all of them, but a whole bunch.

Derelicts is a very nice term for these impoverished thugs killing and robbing us, whom we need to feel sorry for since they're only here for a, "better life". Respectable mexicans don't jump the border. I adore the ones who go to work. But then they're working illegally and everyone else is mad at them. I'm okay with them working because they're the only ones not stealing.

[judaspriestess]

132. I seriously doubt you find any Mexican respectable

you don't even capitalize the word. I should know when I don't respect anyone I don't capitalize either. why don't you report them anonymously to ice so they can do a raid and get rid of these people.


Sounds to me like you live in pocket of town that probably has the reputation of being able to commit crimes so its heavily concentrated there. Its not like that everywhere. I'm sorry you have to go through what you are going through but hating on every single Mexican (as you seem to believe thats all there is) is not going to get anyone anywhere.

But I believe what you are seeing is full on proof of how the lack of education (whether educated here or in their homeland) and opportunity leads to crime, no self worth and a I don't give a damn attitude by so many people. Its not just relegated to the Latino community, its a clear problem here period.

[superconnected]

146. I have friends who are legal who are mexican and respectable.

That's why I know there's a difference.

You're projecting too much. I don't capitalize american most of the time.

[hunter]

147. Are they "popping out a whole lot of kids" too?

I'm just curious.

[EFerrari]

164. I'm sure some of your best friends are Mexicans. n/t

[Bridget Burke]

149. Ah, what wonderful films you must create....

(Or hope to create.)

Let's hope the rest of the world gets to learn even more about what goes on inside your head....

[Wcross]

170. They may use the system less. Do they pay the bill?

The health care problem is about cost, not lack of availability. Why is the cost of health care soaring? People who pay have to cover those who don't. Seems to me if you have no insurance and a fake social security number you aren't too worried about the cost of health care.

Are you ever going to let us know one good reason illegal immigration is good for the average American?

[EFerrari]

171. Illegal immigration is dangerous for illegal immigrants

It's basically slavery redone for this century and with just about the same implications for all classes in our society.

But I guess you'd have to take your sheet off to think about that.

[Wcross]

173. So we need to free them!

I knew you would see things my way sweetheart:)

[EFerrari]

174. Please keep talking. n/t

[midlife_mo_Jo]

68. Here's a look at one hospital in Texas

http://www.snopes.com/politics/immigration/parkland.asp

Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas (JFK died there).

[hunter]

72. So what? I bet I can find hospitals where 70% of the children are born to U.S. citizens.

People have sex, and babies are born. By our U.S. Constitution all babies born in the United States are U.S. citizens. That's probably a very practical policy, otherwise you get a class of people who grow up and acculturate to a nation, but they are not citizens.

It is a very obvious violation of basic human rights to deny the privileges of citizenship to people who are born and raised here. Creating a population of people who know no other nation but are not U.S. citizens is an utterly vile and repugnant idea.

So tell me what your point is?

If I'm holding a baby in one arm from a hospital where 70% of the babies are born to U.S. citizens, and in the other arm a baby from a hospital where 70% of the babies are born to undocumented immigrants, can you tell me which baby is which?

[EFerrari]

75. I have a true story to match.

There was an undocumented woman who worked in my neighborhood who was raped one night. She couldn't go to the hospital, let alone call the police, because she was afraid of being busted.

She had an anchor baby in due course. And I will NEVER forget sitting up with her and with my mom all that night trying to comfort her and to convince her to seek medical attention.

That's when I got it. She barely even spoke Spanish but an indigenous language so we could barely communicate. She was 19.

[countryjake]

86. Did you read that whole article?

The end of that Snopes piece seems to support what sfexpat2000 has presented in this survey.

[midlife_mo_Jo]

87. I read the whole article

and in order to treat these undocumented immigrants humanely, taxpayers are paying huge sums of money.

Look, I support a rational road to legalization for all immigrants who are already here; however, if you live in an area with huge numbers of poor immigrants, it's no surprise when the next hospital emergency room closes its doors. It can't afford to stay open.

When twenty million more immigrants arrive, our health resources are going to be taxed even farther. I don't see how in the hell we are going to convince enough people that we can afford single payer healthcare when we never know how many millions more can cross the border and we have to pay for it.

[countryjake]

88. I do live in an area with many poor migrant workers...

but concerned folk around here make sure that there are resources available for low-income pay-what-you-can medical services to ensure that there are no people going without health care...

http://www.seamar.org/about/mission.htm


The emergency room at the hospital here is frequented by normal poor people, who could use the services that are provided by our county SEA MAR clinics, but don't. As an uninsured American, I have received free emergency room care, but for the third-degree they put one thru to prove "no ability to pay", it is a hell of a lot more desirable to visit the Latino clinic for any treatment. Guess that may be the difference between non-profit and the "business" of hospitals.

I worry more about the millions of Americans who find themselves crippled by a health crisis with no help from a government which practically demands total poverty before medical services are made available.

As that link you have posted says, immigrant patients have a better record of paying their bills than low-income Americans do. When twenty million more Americans find themselves waiting for care in emergency rooms, will the complaints from "tax-payers" about strains on healthcare resources then be directed at those poor people?

[hunter]

89. I tried to explain it simply -- the babies are U.S. citizens.

That is a very sound public policy, and it is written into the Constitution.

If you want to try to change the Constitution, be my guest. I think a Constitutional Convention would mark the final chapter of the United States as a coherent nation. We'd break up into stagnant sectors of little economic growth and harsh immigration policies, and livelier economic zones that simply ignore Federal immigration and economic policy, and don't cooperate with Federal authorities.

To a certain extent this pattern is already developing. The local police in many places refuse to deal with immigration issues because when they do they alienate local communities which makes their day-to-day police investigations utterly impossible.

The social costs of a xenophobic, racist, arbitrary, and downright cruel immigration policy are far greater than any of the problems that seem to concern you.

The way to solve this problem is by implementing a liberal immigration policy coupled with very strictly enforced laws to protect all workers, citizens or not. This policy would almost certainly include a significant increase to the minimum wage.

When there is no longer a class of undocumented workers to be abused by unscrupulous employers, and there are no longer entire communities living in fear of deportation, then local authorities can deal with the rare criminal immigrants in the normal course of their work.

[Megahurtz]

99. Any Number Of

Illegal Immigrants is a drag on the Healthcare System because they are taking time, money, and energy that in turn needs to be spent on U.S. Citizens, primary the working and non-working poor who are suffering and losing out to Illegal Immigrants that are literally flooding the U.S.

This subject just gets so fucking ridiculous. Check out any other Country in the World. No one just allows Illegal Immigrants to live in their Country. If you are discovered, you are deported. WHY should the U.S. be any different? So we are just expected to accept all these millions of people and then we are criticized if we don't? :wtf: I ask you what sense does that make?

And then where do we get to go? Does anyone just allow us to walk in to their Country and stay? Fuck no! I wish! Instead we are stuck here to be reamed by Illegal Immigrants on the take!

Sorry this may offend you, but it's the truth. I guess if it doesn't offend you then you are not one of the millions of working and non-working poor American Citizens that Illegal Immigration is personally affecting.

[leaninglib]

109. You nailed it.

Sometimes I think the "free health care for the world" crowd's motive is to keep pushing until our health care system crumples from the excess load placed upon it.

These unqualified and uneducated folks will never understand the concept of limited resources and/or supply and demand.

They simply do not live in the real world.

[superconnected]

119. We need health care for the ones here now.

Nobody in this country should be denied at least basic health care. We're the richest country on earth.

From what people are saying, our health care system needs to be overhauled. We can afford basic health care for everyone. If we can afford billions for an iraq war. Health care shouldn't be that difficult.

[leaninglib]

175. If someone breaks into my house, do I have to feed them too?

<We're the richest country on earth.>

Does that mean we should buy everyone a house? A car? Christmas gifts?

Yes, we are wasting billions in Iraq. But does that mean we should we waste billions on people who have broken into our country as well?

If you believe that, I urge you and your people to finance a free hospital. I would not object to that and I would not stand in your way.

As for the rest of us, we believe that America should concentrate on the needs of American families first.

[EFerrari]

114. You're right. I haven't looked at someone less fortunate than I am

and felt envy since I was about two. As far as poverty, I've lived with and in and around poverty my entire life. And when I was no longer poor myself, I worked with poverty so I'd never forget where I came from.

I guess I really don't understand what you mean. That's probably true.

[Wcross]

168. We ran out of people in poverty in America, we have to import them?

Mexico's poor are a Mexican problem. We have plenty of citizens living in poverty right here at home. Added illegal immigration is in DIRECT competition with their ability to earn a living wage. How can you justify harming Americas working poor in favor of another nations poor?


You don't see ANYTHING wrong with the fact that 10% of Mexico's citizens reside in the United States? Nothing wrong with 1 in 16 people that live in the United States are illegal?

Are you ever going to tell us ONE reason illegal immigration is good for American Citizens? I really need to know why I should agree with you.:shrug:

[EFerrari]

169. I don't think I can penetrate that mindset but thanks for asking. n/t

[AlphaCentauri]

118. Nobody is against that argument

Is about what to do with the undocumented immigrants living here now? immigrants who have family, pay taxes and contribute in a positive manner to our society.
Almost everybody agree that the system has to change except those who believe that immigrants, especially latinos have to be deported including their American children. Others may go farther and wish all American citizens of Mexican decent should live in fear.

[KurtNYC]

120. why are they here? Illegal hiring

corporations pay less for electricity, less for postage and are allowed to pay less for labor because of the way employment laws are enforced (or NOT enforced). The term "illegal immigration" just clouds some people's minds enough that their anger gets shifted onto other working people via racism.

[High Plains]

140. "Reamed by illegal immigrants on the take."

Oh, you poor thing! Stuck in America with illegal aliens. Oh, the humanity.

[AmanAplan]

134. Illegal (the noun)

How does the cost of "illegal" Americans living in other countries compare with
the cost of "illegal" people living in America?

[hunter]

141. I'd say in Iraq it's really, really bad.

The illegal Americans in Iraq have killed thousands.

[AmanAplan]

159. exactly right

For me the cost of life is so far above money and politics that it is the only way to examine costs.