Kucinich decries GE-media conspiracy

[Algorem]

Source: Las Vegas Sun

By Emily Richmond · January 15, 2008 · 5:51 PM


...“The fact of the matter is, NBC is owned by General Electric. General Electric makes power plants. General Electric wants to make sure there is a place to dump the waste.”

He was talking about nuclear waste and the now shuttered Yucca Mountain nuclear waste dump site northwest of Las Vegas. Kucinich has joined the state of Nevada in opposing the dump. Thus, he said, GE is trying to keep him off the air.

“Now the media has become an issue in this campaign by trying to determine who should be in this debate,” he said.

The Cleveland congressman said he will fight for changes to Federal Communications Commission law to ensure that future candidates can participate in debates. “This underlying corruption is something that undermines our democracy. I’m asking you to continue our efforts to stand up and speak.”...



Read more: http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/early-line/2008/jan/15/kucinich-decries-ge-media-conspiracy/

---

The outrage, Part 1

http://www.valleyblogs.com/sebelius/2008-01-14/id_2620

By Steve Sebelius
January 14, 2008

We got a phone call from U.S. Rep. Dennis Kucinich this weekend. He called us on our iPhone to let us know that he was being excluded from the MSNBC-sponsored debate scheduled for tomorrow night at Cashman Field Center. We didn't get a chance to ask him any questions (to be honest, the guy talked non-stop and we couldn't get a word in edgewise!) before he hung up, but we really feel for him.

After all, he's a legitimate Democratic candidate for the White House. Why wouldn't NBC let him participate?

Well, according to Kucinich, it works like this: NBC is owned by General Electric. And General Electric owns nuclear power plants. And Kucinich is against nuclear power, saying it needs to be phased out. So, the nuke lovers (who just happen to want to dump waste at Yucca Mountain just up the road, which Kucinich has always opposed) try to silence the man...


We e-mailed the Democratic Party earlier today to ask about us, but they never replied. Must be busy doing caucus stuff or whatever...



http://www.clevelandleader.com/node/4362




Kucinich hard to silence, NBC learns

http://www.lasvegassun.com/news/2008/jan/15/lawsuit/

Bill McGaha, the Ohio congressman’s Las Vegas attorney, said the network should “let the people decide who they want to vote for. Don’t exclude a candidate. Let the voters do that. That’s what the process is for.”

According to the lawsuit, Kucinich was invited Wednesday to participate in the debate with the three front-runners New York Sen. Hillary Clinton, former North Carolina Sen. John Edwards and Illinois Sen. Barack Obama. Kucinich qualified because he placed among the top four Democratic presidential candidates in a national news media poll conducted after the Iowa caucus, McGaha said.

On Friday, an MSNBC official withdrew the invitation, saying the criteria to participate had changed and the cable network wanted only the top three candidates, court documents said.

McGaha argued that MSNBC had breached its contract by withdrawing the invitation, an opinion that UNLV law professor Jeff Stempel said sounds reasonable...






Clinton climbs on Yucca issue

http://www.lasvegassun.com/blogs/elsewhere/2008/jan/15/clinton-climbs-yucca-issue/



Reno Gazette-Journal writer Anjeanette Damon says Hillary Clinton was clearly ready to debate about Nevada's proposed nuclear waste dump.
Discussion: 1 comment so far...

1.

By LVWranglersHockeyRocks

She may be ready to debate it, but she was WEAK (despite how Chris Matthews is trying to spin it) in tonight's debate.

I'll tell you what, I was glad to have the Las Vegas Sun website to read while she was rambling tonight. She was hard to listen to.




The inevitable Yucca Mountain question is broached

http://www.rgj.com/blogs/inside-nevada-politics/

Hillary Clinton seizes on the moment to go after both Barack Obama, pointing out that he has taken large campaign contributions from the nuclear industry in his state, and John Edwards, pointing out that he voted in favor of the project before turning against it.

Edwards attempted to steel his credentials by pointing out he is the only candidate to explicitly oppose the construction of new nuclear power plants.
posted by Anjeanette Damon at 7:24 PM

0 comments about this post. COMMENT Comment on this post now...

[DeSwiss]

1. You tell 'em Denny!!!

- K&R!!!

[snot]

2. he's the man. but I'd like to know, is this a recent revelation, or

something he's discussed long before now, perhaps without media coverage?

I just wish I knew how far the Congressdems lag behind the rest of us in basic comprehension.

[LeahMira]

37. If you're talking about the nuclear waste dumping...

... it's been an issue in Indian territory for years and years. The proposed dump site is on Shoshone land and, if approved, the dumping would make that land uninhabitable.

[snot]

121. No, didn't know anything about that.

[ashling]

3. Kucinich has abdicated his self annoited position as a pure candidate

In Iowa when he decided to play ball by sending his support to Obama.

[rAVES]

6. yea.. that totally destroys his near perfect record alright..

:sarcasm:

[Tunkamerica]

4. Why aren't there public debates?

Have the networks bid on them or offer other incentives to air. Have pre-determined rules and stick to them. Why do we let GE run our debates anyway?

[rAVES]

5. Well because the media and the ptb are one and the same..

and of course, it suits barack and clinton (the DLC republican democrats) just fine to have the debate narrowed so that potentially damaging questions like, impeaching bush, holding bush responsible after his term, their war voting and funding records, the Patriot act.. things like that..

Clintbama would love to stand on the stage and debate things like hope, change and a new course.. and other platitude's. Dennis would like nothing better than a national stage from which to debate actual real issues. like say.. nuclear waste dumping.

[Voltaire99]

14. "Clintbama"

The two-headed elite-funded hotspur o' hope!

Nice post. It won't do for Dennis simply to blame NBC/GE when it is also the centers of power in his party that also ensure his marginalization.

[NorthCarolina]

38. He Has Spoke Often About Fighting From Within His Party

to restore them to a party of the people. The DLC is the monster within the Party that needs to be eradicated.

[cyclezealot]

15. The collusion is obvious.

ABC invests huge amounts into Obama, Hillary. They adhere to the corporate stranglehold onto our news intelligentsia that so dumbs down news gathering capabilities with our lousy media, that was in collusion with George Bush in 2002 and uncritically brought us into an unnecessary war. NBC and Yucca Mountain , are we that stupid we can't see the connection. Hardly as if voices such as Kucinich's voice is heard in non election years. / It really is a disgusting , undemocratic system, skewed to those who are on the take from the same corporate donors who determine what information we are allowed to hear.

[PADemD]

17. Obama is not a member of the DLC.

[riqster]

67. Might as well be.

[loudsue]

92. Joe LIEberman is Obama's "mentor", and the NDN sponsored Obama, and the DLC

supported him. You don't get any more in bed with the DLC than that.

Obama HIMSELF said Joe LIEberman was his mentor, when he supported Joe over Lamont in the primary in 2004.

[shance]

9. Because citizens need to effectively mobilize and the elites are doing everthing

they can including using the intelligence agencies and much of law enforcement to infiltrate all progressive groups, organizations and community councils in order to divide the citizens from coming together to effectively dismantle their machine.

[plasticsundance]

23. The Machine can try

But the very path it has chosen is the one providing the way for its destruction. Since it is a machine, it is inevitable that it breaks down.

[davidinalameda]

7. all I can say

:tinfoilhat:

[defendandprotect]

8. Could we all just decide to WRITE IN "Kucinich/Edwards" next election day--???

[Kaleko]

11. That would be my dream come true. Imagine...

[cyclezealot]

16. Edwards treatment of Kucinich is deplorable.

He has done all possible to have him silenced , so as to not to have to reveal the sources of his ideas.

[aquaman11173]

20. and that my dear friend is a load of bull..

So why did DK give all his votes to OBAMA if John Edwards ideas are so close to his own? Is DK in this for himself or the Americans?

[Highway61]

22. here...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=4071581


But...The MSM is silencing him as well...he'll be the next to go.
He's too "anticorporate"....

[defendandprotect]

126. I hadn't been aware of this --- if true, razberry to Edwards ---

[ProudDad]

90. You can but it won't be counted...

the system is so fucking rigged that you are NOT voting for the candidate, you are voting for electors.

There is NO LEGAL REQUIREMENT for The electors TO VOTE for the person the ballot says they are going to vote for once the "Electoral College" convenes.

It's all Foma...

It's all bullshit to make you think that you have any control over the process when it's really the richest white guys in charge -- always has been always will be in the belly of the beast, the USAmerikan Empire!

The repukes would never even CONSIDER changing the current system!

The Dems will NEVER change the current system because once they've attained high office they've WON!

Why the FUCK Dennis hasn't switched to Green or at least, Independent, I don't know...

-------------

The only recourse the People have is to personally secede. Since the system is awash with and runs on corporate money...

DON'T GIVE THEM YOUR MONEY!!!!

Buy local. Buy used. Or even better, don't buy anything at all that you don't absolutely need!

Simplify your life...

Build local communities. Build local barter networks.

STARVE THE BEAST THAT'S KILLING YOU!!!!


But for Dog's sake, don't depend on the fucking Democrats!

[defendandprotect]

127. Aha --- yes --- thanks for the explanation --- I see!!

Why have we never worked to change this?
Rather, why haven't the Democrats worked to change this . . .
I guess it's just a presumption of our that they are working towards the ideals of democracy!!!

And I agree with your further comments ---
People need an anti-corporate eagenda ---

And -- oops --- right about the Dems, as well --
And... what's plan B?
Where do we go with the Dems so co-opted if not corrupted by corporate $ --- ??

[parkerll]

91. That's what I'm doing.

I've already voted for him in the S.C. primary (absentee ballot). I'm through capitulating.

[shance]

10. Can someone please tell me where Governor Dean and the DNC were on this?

I am speechless at the epidemic cowardice, that or willing complicity.

I'm not sure which it is at this point.

[defendandprotect]

12. And he's getting no help from the big three --- nor the Democratic Party --- which

perhaps should also be suing ---???

[PFunk]

13. This could possibly be bad news for the '08 elections.

Feeling that the corporations now pic the candidates instead of them (i.e 'the fix is in'). It could cause more people to just decide not to vote and just 'stay home' instead.

It could cause many to take another look at Keith Oberman as to many this mess has tarnished his image-and his program as well.

[Freddie Stubbs]

32. Why should they support a guy who won't even promise to support the Democratic nominee?

:shrug:

[frylock]

59. it's a shame he can't just fall in lockstep

[Freddie Stubbs]

101. It's a shame that he won't promise to support the Democratic nominee

[frylock]

119. and i said it's a shame he can't just fall in lockstep

[deacon]

18. It's a tragedy that the media is so blatantly biased. Thats not who they're supposed to be.

It's admission of guilt. Paul gets more votes than giuliani too, and gets locked out. They are who they are and remember this EVERY time you put them on an want to take them seriously.

[Kolesar]

19. General Electric owns nuclear power plants?

I dont think that is true

[FreeStateDemocrat]

25. GE manufactures many componets of nuclear plants and would be greatly enriched by their construction

[idiocracyhell]

29. It's true

http://www.gepower.com/prod_serv/products/nuclear_energy/en/index.htm

http://www.business-standard.com/common/storypage_c.php?leftnm=10&bKeyFlag=BO&autono=310341

[polmaven]

21. But, but but....

I thought NBC was owned by Osama bin Laden......Billo said so!

Billo wouldn't LIE to us, would he????? :shrug:



(Oh, and in case there is someone who hasn't figured it out....:sarcasm: )

[Highway61]

24. Remember when

The "media" was looking into the fired judges etc..(that story died along with the many others over the past 7 years)?

The replacement of a lot of these judges are exactly why Dennis didn't make it to the debates.
Friends in high places...Corporate IS the power to be....$$$ is everything. This is a whole new chess game folks....only we are the pawns who "vote" for the candidates they said we should vote for on voting machines they built.
Fuck it

[Highway61]

26. Air America has been doing a poll

for the past several months. Folks are calling in at different times and Thom Hartman said the other day that Dennis has come in FIRST each and every time (by a wide margin). Edwards second, Obama third and Clinton fourth. EVERY poll. Says it all doesn't it?

[Tarc]

27. What it says is

that you don't really know much about statistics. Any poll taken like that is meaningless and scientifically invalid.

[Highway61]

35. no...it tells me

that the people want integrity and truth. (what a concept)

[Tarc]

41. You don't get it

It isn't an accurate, reliable measure of anything. When you get to college, you'll learn about these basic math concepts.

[Highway61]

42. Really....

Try... already done that...with honors. Now for you....ignore.

[Tarc]

43. Sue your college then

Because they obviously didn't do a very good job educating you.

[MADem]

52. Yep--DU never picks the winner, either. This forum is well to the left of the nation as a whole. NT

[disndat]

48. What??

I listen to Thom Hartmann, most days. John Edwards has always come out on top by a wide margin over D.K. who comes in second.

[Highway61]

84. For Heaven's sake

Thank you...need a helmut to post here lately. Rachel Maddow is a Rhodes scholar and Thom Hartman is very well respected...Whomever their listeners are...it shows what the people REALLY want in a candidate...NOT what our media tells us who to vote for.

[paparush]

28. GE is 14th on the list of Top 100 Defense Contractors

There's the nuke power issue...then there's the REAL MONEY of the defense contracts.

War is too profitable.

GE is keeping the anti-war voice out of the debate.

Linkage
http://www.defensenews.com/index.php?S=07top100

[MorningGlow]

30. And even in reporting it, the Sun belittles him

by calling it a "conspiracy". After all, utter the word "conspiracy" and the subject in question automatically becomes a "tinfoilhatted wingnut" right? :eyes:

[xiamiam]

31. this is just so in your face...corruption..undermining democracy imo

im so disappointed..not only in the bold shameless way that the media has determined who to shove down our throats but in the blind sheep who think its ok..including here on du...if any one thing is undermining our democracy it is the media and the pundits who whore for them..its just so damned obvious and i remain shocked that there are people here who dont get it...just dont see the criminality of it...i spent the morning trying to find other blogs addressing this issue and while there are many who recognize the shameless truth, their format is not half as sophisticated as du...thats why i love it here but i dont recognize the politics and awareness of our members...i keep telling myself that in a democracy we have divergent views but i found this place because some things were just collectively self evident...i have to enlighten my republican aunt and other family members, and thats exhausting enough.. the transparency of a stolen democracy is something i never thought i would need to do here...i dont care if anyone flames me..im too broken hearted right now to fight back..give me a day or two to regroup..

[idiocracyhell]

33. I'm heartbroken as well

I usually get angry over these blatant media manipulations of our election. But after hearing that corporate America won again over our constitutional right to a free election, I was just heartbroken. I'm usually frustrated over the people that keep voting for CEO (Clinton,Edwards, and Obama), but now I'm just disillusioned and worried about our future. How can so many people not get that Kucinich is the only candidate looking out for the peoples best interest?

[winston61]

34. The fix is already in down here in Texass

The Dem party has already excluded Dennis from the ballot because he won't sign the party loyalty oath. Fuck 'em, I'll write in Dennis and waste my vote before I vote for Billary.

[veniceboy]

36. Keebler Elf

Might also be because he would distract time from the real candidates. Personally I welcome the chance for a closer inspection of the two and half real candidates as opposed to the packed stage.

[rhett o rick]

40. You don't sound like a Democrat. nm

[Tarc]

44. Sounds like a great one to me

How many months has it been since Kucinich declared his candidacy? One would think that if his message was resonating with voters, the %'s would go up, no?

Over a one-year span;

http://www.presidentpolls2008.com/Issues/Candidates/Democratic-Presidential-Hopefuls/Representative-Dennis-Kucinich-of-Ohio.html

I see a high-water mark of 4%. No trends upward, just an across-the-board fluctuation between 1-5.

[rhett o rick]

50. So your point is GE/NBC can decide? Why don't they do that for the republicans?

Because they are in bed with the republicans. As I said, a good Democrat would support DK even if they don't agree with him. Whose next, John Edwards? I don't want the corporatists making the decision.

[Tarc]

57. They all do it for both parties, drop the tinfoil

That is why Hunter was dropped from a recent debate. It is time to focus on the candidates with a legitimate chance at winning. Kucinich has proven that he is not capable of that.

[rhett o rick]

60. "Drop the tinfoil"??? That's a good way to encourage honest debate.

I am going to take a wild guess and say you support Clinton.

[Tarc]

63. Nice strawman you've constructed there.

Who I voted for isn't relevant. But hey, nice try at distrction from the fact that minor candidates from both parties have been excluded from debates, and not just Kucinich.

[rhett o rick]

68. So all the irrelevant republicans have been dropped from debates? Is that what you are saying?

And my question about who you support is relevant to me. It seems like most that have sided with GE vs. Kucinich are Clinton supporters. Just my opinion.

[Tarc]

70. "Yes"

In answer to the "all the irrelevant republicans have been dropped from debates" question. To forestall the predictable "BUT BUT BUT what about Giuliani/Thompson/Paul!?!" follow-up, the first and the second consistently poll in the mid-20's. Not great but not irrelevant. Paul ekes out a 5-7% nationally last I checked. Borderline, but passable.

[rhett o rick]

82. You think Fred Thompson is a viable candidate? nm

[treestar]

56. As if the MSM doesn't do all it can to keep the voters from hearing it

We really can't trust the MSM. A lot of messages might resonate if they got out there.

[xiamiam]

61. and you choose to believe that?...nt

[veniceboy]

49. Because I don't want a disorganized debate?

I am a democrat, but I'm interested in an inspection of the candidates that have a chance of winning. This country will NEVER vote for someone that looks like Kucinich regardless of his political views. That's just a sad fact. Additionally, the guy has had the opportunity to make his case, he isn't getting any votes. He simply isn't a serious candidate. It makes sense and is far more useful to focus on the real candidates at this point.

[rhett o rick]

53. So you will let GE/NBC decide so it isn't "disorganized"? What a shame.

Why don't you let GE decide on the candidate outright? That would take a lot more of the "disorganization" out of it? I prefer disorganized to the bullshit the fascist media feeds us.

Just curious, is your candidate Clinton?

[Tarc]

I'm not the only one that gets your strawman fallacies, it seems

Stop commentig on who others have voted for, it makes you look rather pathetic.

By excluding a fringe candidate, GE is not "deciding" a goddamned thing. Kucinich has had plenty of time to catch on with the voting public, having made numerous appearances at previous debates. If it hasn't happened already, it ain't gonna happen now.

[riqster]

66. They invited him as one of the top four candidates.

...Then changed it to top three, AFTER inviting him.

[Tarc]

71. so?

They took into consideration his dismal performances in Iowa and New Hampshire.

[xiamiam]

72. there are 48 more states..i hardly think that iowa and new hampshire and fully representative

regardless of who tells me so...

[Tarc]

75. He declared his candidacy a year ago

Out of the hundreds of polls to be taken since then, you don't think that if he were to catch on with th public, it would have happened by now?

[xiamiam]

76. not if news and support is selectively reported...nt

[Tarc]

79. Impossible to penetrate the True Believers(tm) mantra

You have more in common with Mike Huckabee's fanatic evangelical supporters than you realize, son.

[riqster]

83. Wrong.

The invite for all candidates was based solely on Iowa performance.

[Tarc]

102. Don't change the fact that he still placed poorly there

and that was sufficient criteria.

[riqster]

110. Get this straight-GE changed its own rules

You may hate Kucinich, but facts are facts:

Iowa results: Kucinich is invited based on his performance, as one of the top four candidates.

GE CHANGES THEIR FUCKING MINDS AFTER THE INVITATION ands chooses to allow only the top three candidates.

It had nothing to do with his showing in Iowa, because GE already knew about it.

[Tarc]

114. The I take it back

The even poorer NH showing did color their choice. He initially met the criteria, then NH sunk him.

[treestar]

55. Will it vote for someone who looks like Obama or Hillary?

Just curious.

[ProudDad]

95. Riiiiiggggghhhhhtttt...

Kucinich gets 2 minutes out of 90 in alleged "debates" full of MSM bullshit questions that belong in a H.S. student council race....

The MSM covers the Presidential race like a popularity contest....

And you say "the guy has had the opportunity to make his case"!


I have one question for you...

Do you agree with Dennis Kucinich's policies and positions or not?

http://www.dennis4president.com/go/issues/

If you do, why are you surrendering? Do you really think the corporate Dems are going to fucking do what you'd like them to do? How are you liking the end of the war they promised us NEARLY 2 YEARS AGO!

If you don't, well then you can't call yourself progressive. I wonder WTF you're doing on an allegedly "progressive" internet board. There's an i-word for that sort of thing...starts with "T" and ends with "LL"

[parkerll]

96. Not a Democrat

I've come to the conclusion that the Democrats have left me behind in their swing toward the middle. I honestly see very little difference between the parties. They both represent corporate interests. Remember the celebrating when the Dems took control? It quickly turned to disappointment, starting with "impeachment is off the table".

I'm off to find a forum for progressives so I can commune with like-minded souls. Y'all have fun.

[rhett o rick]

122. The Democratic Party has no room for progressives.

check out progressiveindependent.com if you are looking for a progressive blog.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Individualist]

88. That's what I'm going to do

DK all the way!

[ProudDad]

97. That's what I'm going to do

Write in Dennis unless I vote for the Green Candidate again...

Haven't decided yet.

Whoever is closest to my values gets my vote.


Imagine that!

[riqster]

45. I think it's the NH recount

NBC un-invited Kucinich after he called for a recount.

[Javaman]

46. Folks, we are being treated to 3 card monty media style.

Dennis has been thrown overboard by the corps, because he dares to question their motives.

"no one sees the mighty oz!!"

just keep knitting folks, our candidate will be chosen for us.

[xiamiam]

47. simple correction...our candidates have been chosen for us..and the presidency as well..nt

[Javaman]

58. True. nt

[MADem]

51. Well, Dennis, GE is a Top Ten Pentagon Contractor, too.

As I've said many times on this forum: GE, We Bring Good Wars To Life!!

Anyone who takes as gospel ANY commentary coming off of tee vee, and who doesn't look askance at anything other than plainly unedited video, is 'unquestioning' to put it kindly.

[Vilis Veritas]

54. When the alarm bells sound,

just hit snooze...back to sleep America, just another 15 minutes of complacency...that is all we need.

[Supersilly1]

62. Ohhh Dennis

Just go away would you? There's no conspiracy. You don't have a chance at winning anyways.

[nxylas]

64. That's for us to decide, not NBC

At least in theory.

[Tarc]

65. NBC didn't "decide" anything

This Rovian tactic of screaming a lie so often in the hopes enough people will believe it isn't winning anyone over.

[xiamiam]

73. thats crap and you know it...the media has shoved their choices down our throats for a year

i live in california and still have yet to meet a hillary supporter....so get off your high horse like you know what is going on because you dont..and your posts are supporting media manipulation..can you please answer why you would take that stance?

[Tarc]

77. No one pays attention to California

because it is so late down the primary schedule, as it should be. Campaigning and buying airtime and such in CA's media markets is disgustingly expensive, and that would kill the lightly-funded candidates. Small states like Iowa and NH give the chance for the Kucinich types to be heard, as it is easier to travel and cheap to advertise. And after all that, Kucinich STILL did not resonate with the voters of either state.

There is no "media manipulation"; Kucinich declared his candidacy last December, and has not budged one iota up from the 3-5% poll results. It is simply time to face the reality that people don't like him as much as you think they should.

Any more canards of yours I can shoot down?

[xiamiam]

89. i think you are a troll..nt

[Tarc]

93. I think you just lost the argument

and are looking for a way out.

[xiamiam]

94. no, end of dialogue when you said no one pays any attention to california

that is when you lost me giving you any more attention that this final post

[Tarc]

100. Um, you said it yourself

I agreed with you, and explained why.

[wintersoulja]

74. thats right

Clinton/Edwards worked this deal with ABC first, MSNBC clearly was willing to have him there, until somebody said "No!"

[f the letter]

80. i disagree with all your arguments on this thread

on edit : fixed some mismatched pronouns.
==
Private ownership of presidential debates is in the interest of nobody but (corporate) owners, especially when it translates into the ability to exclude candidates who disagree with them. The candidate's 'poll presence' is irrelevant in this.. if they are running then they deserve the same shot at getting their points across as anyone else in the race. They've certainly thrown enough money into the wind to even get the chance to speak, a sad reality of privately funded campaigns.

Consider the benefits of publicly funded election campaigns (i.e. Maine / Arizona) and then tell me that GE didn't decide anything.. it is ludicrous to say they didn't decide him out of the debate. The best you can do is say that you don't want his voice in political dialog either.

Calling Kucinich fringe is a bit silly when his positions are aligned with the mainstream, who has been frightened into voting against their least ideal candidate instead of voting for the most ideal candidate. i agree he has little showing in the polls, but is far from fringe. Drop the 'drop the tinfoil.'

You have accurately pointed out that Kucinich won't be winning this election at this 'late' stage (almost a year away), but that's no reason to prevent him from influencing the level of discourse. If not for him the race would be even more jingoistic and dumbed down, if such a thing is possible.. we should all thank him for that regardless of our chosen candidate.

By your logic one could just as easily say that since a candidate of one's choice (say, Clinton) has resonated with the voters and has polling points, she could be excluded from the debate harmlessly, since the debate won't make any difference in how people perceive the candidates. i don't buy it, and don't support locking her or any other candidate still in the race out of any debate, anywhere, for any reason, through any rationalization.

Am hoping for more than a one-sentence response on this one

[ProudDad]

99. NBC decided to shut out the only dissenting voice

left in the Dem side of the "race"...

"Rovian tactic of screaming a lie so often in the hopes enough people will believe it isn't winning anyone over"

We're not trying to "win you over". Your lack of acquaintance with the truth of the USAmerikan Empire and its agents is obviously unassailable.

[AngryOldDem]

69. Okay, fine.

But telling Dennis to shut up leaves NONE of us ANY right to complain about rigged debates, let alone rigged elections, and leaves NONE of us ANY room to bitch about how the MSM has hijacked the political process, and how they should just butt the hell out. Until Kucinich (or any candidate) pulls the plug on his or her campaign, they should be included in any debate, as just a basic recognition that the political process isn't entirely a sham. (And it seems to me, too, that this used to be a basic condition of broadcasting -- serving the public good.)

Although I can't say I am a Kucinich supporter, I am getting sick and tired of the piling on whenever he dares to say what the rest of us have been saying (and writing) about since 2004. I thought we wanted to see a presidential election cycle open to the process and free from establishment-type influence. Isn't that exactly what he is challenging? The fact that some here choose to see that as Dennis making it "all about him" proves how much we are influenced by the shit the media wants us to digest.

Granted, right now he is a voice in the wilderness, but he is a voice. If it's silenced, it will ultimately be our loss, whether or not Dennis makes it past Super Tuesday.

[Dervill Crow]

107. You're correct, and that pisses me off.

DK is the best candidate (IMNSHO) but doesn't have a snowball's chance in hell of winning.

It says much more about America than about Kucinich. :cry:

[Buzz Clik]

78. Kucinich opposes Yucca Mountain for high level rad waste disposal? Holy shit!

Just what the hell does he propose instead? We put the waste into hot dogs and bologna?

That stuff is lethal. It MUST be put away someplace safe and secure.

This is insanity.

[f the letter]

81. i think he wanted to use it in doritos actually

Oh, no wait.. i think he wanted to stop making nuclear waste at such an alarming rate. My mistake

The fait accompli argument of "we already have all this waste and we need to put it somewhere to keep our hot dogs safe" is missing a major point

[Buzz Clik]

85. I like your response (I really do!). But, you're missing something very key:

Whether you're pro-nuke or anti-nuke, the high level rad waste we have right now would fill Yucca Mountain. A lot of spent plutonium fuel rods are simply sitting in pools of water to keep them cool -- in the open air surrounded by a chain link fence.

Put the goddam stuff on a train, ship it to Nevada, and bury for all eternity. Today.

[f the letter]

87. That's fair

i just wish we weren't making more this quickly. Maybe we can keep it somewhere in Texas? Maybe Crawford?

But in all seriousness, there's no good solution for this stuff. i wouldn't be anti-nuke if it weren't so toxic and didn't remain so toxic for so long. Wish there were a a viable way to contain it that didn't render whole counties untouchable for centuries (longer? not sure on the numbers here).

i didn't mean to be so snarky with my earlier response. That was stupid

[ProudDad]

104. 100,000 years

That's how long that shit's toxic...

[Buzz Clik]

116. Actually, that's the half-life of some of the radionuclides.

The actual toxicity goes on long beyond that. I'm getting the impression that you're inferring that Yucca isn't a good solution because no geologic structure is permanent, and I agree. However, Yucca Mtn is far better than the current approach of ... nothing.

[ProudDad]

120. The right approach is to

close down the nukes currently running.

Never build another one of the fucking things.

And heavily subsidize decentralized Solar, etc. in their stead.

[Buzz Clik]

115. Don't ever apologize for being snarky.

It's an art form that is recognized and rewarded at DU (re: DUzy Awards).

[ProudDad]

103. You forgot your smilie in your post...

:sarcasm:

I had an extra one I can lend you...

------------

In case you weren't trying to be sarcastic; Yucca Mtn is a LOUSY place to store this shit. It's in an earthquake prone area right above the main water table.

I propose NO NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS -- they pollute as much as Coal or Oil in the long run when you include the vast infrastructure that is required to manufacture and support them.

I propose a Manhattan style crash program to implement Decentralized Solar/Wind/Geothermal depending on the area.

I propose MASSIVE tax breaks and subsidies for non-polluting, democratic technologies and a heavy penalty on the polluting, unsustainable shit that is being fucking SUBSIDIZED NOW!

[Buzz Clik]

117. No smilie needed, and none intended.

I am a rabid environmentalist, but most enviros and I part company over this issue.

You don't like Yucca Mountain? Okay -- what's the alternative? It's not as if Yucca Mountain was the result of tossing a dart.

"Earthquake prone"? Well, not exactly like the San Andreas fault, but no place can be said to be 100% earthquake free over a period of 100,000 years.

Those spent fuel rods must -- absolutely must -- go somewhere. They must go somewhere very soon.

No new nuclear power plants? Works for me, particularly considering the difficulty we have in disposing the spent fuel.

[Solon]

105. So did Kerry, your point? n/t

[Buzz Clik]

118. See responses 85, 115, and 116.

Lots and lots of people oppose Yucca Mountain, and I've yet to hear a reasonable alternative to a critical problem.

[Perry Mason]

86. Whether you agree w/his position, his accusation is without question

I fail to see how any reasoned person cannot plainly see that, whether or not they happen to agree with Kucinich's positions and/or would vote for him, the accusation that he has been deliberately excluded from the debates as well as the race itself is indisputable.

It was just last week my home state of Texas announced he would not even be allowed to be on the ballot, allegedly for not signing a "loyalty oath". They put a Nazi like Bush on the ballot here, but Kucinich is expected to sign a loyalty oath.

The Nevada debate is just the latest in a series of similar slights. Even when Kucinich was included in the debates earlier in the process, he quite obviously was not given equal screen time, or asked as many or as serious questions as the predetermined corporate approved big money candidates.

OF COURSE HE IS NOT POLLING AS WELL! If the media that so many of the addle-brained feel is sufficient to provide them with their "news" is allowed to do this, no one has much of a chance of knowing what his positions are. At our family Thanksgiving dinner, I discovered that my parents had never even heard of him!

This flies in the face of what Democrats are supposed to support, and it is typical of the unfailing disappointment I feel in our current big money corporatist Democratic party, yet again fielding a roster of candidates I cannot in good conscience vote for. Wonder why they lose support...

[xiamiam]

98. yet there are those here debating and supporting msnbc and the media

another lowpoint imo..much like debating torture on national tv...

[ProudDad]

106. There are a LOT of right-wing Dems

Non-Progressives on this board now.

It wasn't this bad a few years ago although exceptions muddied the waters back then too.

I didn't mind so much because it allowed me to question and sharpen my thoughts and arguments.

Now it's just getting depressing because so many on this board display the same know-nothing brainwashing that the public at large, who would be "Liberal" and "Progressive" if allowed to be, have been programmed by 30+ years and billions of dollars of R/W spin from both right-wings of the Big Business Party to believe.

[Individualist]

108. Absolutely

DLC wants to undermine the party, so I can't for the life of me understand why their supporters are allowed to post on a progressive Democratic website.

Let's just look at the cold, hard facts about the DLC and its record. The DLC has pushed, among other things, the war in Iraq and "free" trade policies, using bags of corporate money to buy enough Democratic votes to help Republicans make those policies a reality. They have chastised anyone who has opposed those policies as either unpatriotic or anti-business -- even as a majority of Americans now oppose the war in Iraq, oppose the DLC's business-written trade deals, and are sick of watching America's economy sold out to the highest corporate bidder. Additionally, in brazenly Orwellian fashion, the DLC has also called its extremist agenda "centrist," even though polls show the American public opposes most of their agenda, and supports much of the progressive agenda. http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0727-32.htm

The progressive movement has not just threatened this message monopoly -- it is undoing it. Through MoveOn, the rise of popular documentaries, blogs, think tanks, etc. It's not just that we talk about real values and innovative strategies. It's because we're talking, period, that the centrists feel threatened.

Hence the DLC's vicious attempts to discredit the movement. And that's what they want. They don't seek to win an argument over policy. They seek to destroy the credibility of their opponents and restore their message monopoly. http://www.openleft.com/showDiary.do?diaryId=721

This is why the DLC is dangerous. For all their claims of supposedly wanting to help Democrats, they employ people like Marshall Wittman who specifically try to undermine the Democratic Party, even if it means he has to publicly defecate out the most rank and easily-debunkable lies. They reguarly give credence to the right wing's agenda and its worst, most unsupportable lies. They are the real force that tries to make sure this country is a one party state and that Democrats never really challenge the Republicans in a serious way. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-sirota/why-the-dlc-is-so-dangero_b_13640.html

"The Democratic Leadership Council's agenda is indistinguishable from the Republican Neoconservative agenda," http://rawstory.com/news/2007/Kucinich_DLC_agenda_undistinguishable_from_Neocon_0813.html


Without a doubt, the DLC is the most fundamentalist organization within the caucus, the most ideologically rigid, and the most destructive to the progressive cause.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/5/24/1712/23448

These DLC types are amazing, they really are. Their pathology is unique; they all secretly worship the guilt-by-association tactics of Lee Atwater and Karl Rove, but unlike those two, not one of them has enough balls to take being thought of as the bad guy by the general public.
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/story/11275627/the_low_post_democrats_walk_themselves_to_the_gallows

[xiamiam]

109. guess the ignore feature is important to use once you determine who they are

i dont need to dialogue with these folks..i get enough of it just by turning on the tv..i just wish there was a list so that i could avoid their posts before being snagged...
when i watched the supreme court help steal the 2000 election, i sat in front of the tv in shock that my fellow americans could not see what was happening...the biggest lesson i've learned over the last several years is just how willing we are to be manipulated..and how few people are willing to think for themselves..hard pill to swallow..

[krkaufman]

111. Love the Steve Sibelius post, where he felt the need ...

... to detail that Kucinich "called us on our iPhone." Wouldn't "called us" have sufficed?

[Dogfur]

112. I think people are missing the bigger picture here -

I'll come out of my long standing lurking mode to add this to the conversation.

Kucinich and Ron Paul's ideology (and voting records) aren't part of the party(s) line, but their involvement in the process can't be eliminated at the party operative level without public repercussions and exposure. While fringe people like us may be amused and perhaps excited at these alternative platforms, it quickly becomes the media's job to protect the illusion of democracy by eliminating anything that the two parties can't control. Neither can afford to go off script. While I admire and encourage the optimism of many on this board, it cannot be avoided that our representation as currently functioning is deeply, deeply conflicted and corrupted beyond hope for change within the corporatist reign. That is our new flag and national identity, with no geographic or moral boundary.

I too will take part in the illusion of democracy, but I know in my heart that it is only cheap theater. Relying on the democratic process for change is not any more a realistic solution as is relying on your corporate-owned media for information of importance to democracy. They will crush any and all who challenge the power structure from within. They will alienate, silence and malign any who might come too near the curtain.

[f the letter]

113. i hear it

Well said.. i try to forget that as often as possible.

At the same time, although change proper is unattainable through the system, small changes can add up to slightly less small changes sometimes. i'll take that over participating in a violent revolution (i am not accusing you of inciting violence) until i have a better plan.

But you're right

[rhett o rick]

123. Damn you. If the emperior don't have no clothes, keep it to your self. I am hanging on only

because of my delusion that there is hope. Thanks a lot

[Dogfur]

124. It IS better to know some version of truth if you wish to pursue a change

and I also share your longing to be maintain an illusion for 'hopes' sake. I also agree that incremental small changes are better
than nothing at all. At this point any sort of 'revolution in the streets' will just make a mess of the streets we have to live in,
and in no real way change the way that money and power move and who holds them. I think the real questions to be asked are:

If our 'democracy' is truly beyond repair, what is the most logical path of action?

I don't have any meaningful answers.

[donkeyotay]

125. What is the most logical path of action?

AS you point out, both the Ron Paul and the Dennis Kucinich populist wings realize that the only way we're on the table is when we're on the menu. If the citizens of this country are tired of being lunch, we need to regain control of our representative government by demanding fully funded elections including the use of our airwaves. I think the percentage of people telling pollsters that the country is on the wrong track is approaching %80. This is not a new but a growing realization. Decades ago the leading concern was getting the corrupting influence of money out of elections. In the years since that corrupting influence has achieved its pinnacle. If the Left and the Right populists can unite and force congress to make bribery illegal again, a responsive congress can begin to put the country back on track. Naturally, the ptb are not going to let this happen unless we make it happen.