ABC defends show against outcry by pediatricians

[ursi]

Source: Reuters

LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - The ABC network said on Monday it will go ahead with plans to air an episode of its new legal drama "Eli Stone" despite objections from pediatricians who say the show may discourage parents from having their children immunized.

The debut episode features the show's title character and hero, a trial lawyer for big corporations who decides to fight for the little guy, convincing a jury that a mercury-based preservative in a vaccine caused a child's autism.

On the show, a jury awards the boy's mother $5.2 million in damages after it is revealed the CEO of the vaccine maker kept his own daughter from getting the company's vaccine because of autism concerns.

The "Eli Stone" plot ventures into a highly charged debate between the U.S. medical establishment and some parents and advocates for autistic children over the safety of vaccines for youngsters.



Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/televisionNews/idUSN2852014120080129

---

Key point: CEO of the vaccine maker kept his own daughter from getting the vaccine ...

[varkam]

1. Uh...it's a TV Show.

You do understand that, correct?

[ursi]

2. Really? Wow, I didn't know that! So, it's sort of like the SOTU address? Wow!

You know that this issue is one that is of importance to Robert F. Kennedy Jr., right?

[varkam]

4. RFK is not a scientist.

As is obvious to anyone who is.

Moreover, the SOTU address actually happened. Eli Stone is make-believe.

[MinM]

16. CDC's Dr. Thomas Verstraeten

Autism: Why The Debate Rages - Couric & Co.

Early in his study, the lead author, CDC's Dr. Thomas Verstraeten, found statistically significant associations between the amount of mercury (thimerosal) exposure kids got from their childhood vaccines, and a wide range of brain disorders. However, the published version of the study (the one the authors say is accurate) found no evidence of a link to autism. Not disclosed was that Dr. Verstraeten had left CDC midstream during the study and had gone to work for Glaxo, a vaccine manufacturer.

Autism Debate Strains a Family and Its Charity - New York Times
House Committee Approves Measure to Remove Mercury from Children’s Flu Shots
Bush Set to Veto HHS-Labor-Education Appropriations Bill Due to Provision to Remove Mercury From Infant Vaccines

[varkam]

17. Show me.

Show me the data that provse mercury in vaccines is connected with autism. Show it to me. Please. I'll be waiting.

[Zhade]

46. There is none.

NT!

[Djinn]

9. so

why should any care what is of import to the leisurely classes?

[Shipwack]

14. I understand your point and agree with it, but...

Unfortunately, there is significantly large portion of the population that will use this TV show to help them make a conclusion. I have heard people at work say that torture should be allowed "Because it works for Jack Bauer on '24'!". :banghead:

I personally think such people shouldn't be allowed to vote or raise children, but that would be a dangerous road to go down...

[Skittles]

44. do you know how many stupid Americans there are?

who are heavily influenced by what they see on TV? Look who is the f***ing "president".

[Zhade]

47. Should we count the science-ignorant here, too?

:evilgrin:

[Skittles]

48. looking at the popularity of crap like "CSI"

I would say that would be a giant chunk of the American TV-viewing audience

[Tunkamerica]

3. would be a better point if that actually happened

this is make believe. If there were proof that a real ceo did that it would be huge, till then its just a story.

[ursi]

5. I am sorry if I offended you for posting this story. I see the relevance of it differently

Fiction or not, this is a huge issue in the debate regarding the impact of vaccinations on children and autism.

That's why ABC is being questioned on the series.

Please don't get mad at me for my understanding of the issue, folks. It's not personal in some ways but in others it is. There is an autistic child in my family.

[Tunkamerica]

13. Not mad at all n/t

[Teaser]

15. it is an issue somewhat lacking in evidence

it is odd how the timing of these vaccinations is associated with autism onset. In autistic children who don't get the vaccinations, autism
onset begins at roughly the same time, indicating that onset is part of developmental time course and not a vaccination.

[smiley_glad_hands]

6. Recent study out of California

supposedly concluded there was no correlation. Basically, they stopped using mercury based vaccinations years ago and there has been no change in the rate of autism. This show is kind of moot and promotes an untruth.

[varkam]

7. Actually, autism rates *continued* to climb despite thimerosal being removed from vaccines.

[Ms. Toad]

23. Actually, it hasn't been completely removed

Next time you are looking for some interesting reading material, check out the flu vaccine data sheets. Flu vaccine is now being pushed for children ages 6 months to 5 years.

[varkam]

30. Even if it wasn't, then you would expect to see...

at least some sort of drop in the incidence of autism, though that was not seen at all. It really is just one more nail in the coffin for the mercury / autism hypothesis (among the preponderance of nails already present).

[Ms. Toad]

42. Or, the increase in diagnosis

which is based on health professional awareness of autism and/or different diagnostic criteria may have outweighed the drop related to the removal of thimersol.

I don't have a dog in this particular argument (thimersol - autism connection). I do have concerns about how we vaccinate (what age and what combinations are used) and what we vaccinate for (balancing seriousness of illness being protected against v. the artificial creation of incomplete immunity v. forced vaccinations).

I just don't happen to think all of the evidence is in on the thimersol-autism debate. I don't know where the jury will end up, but at this point I would make my decision to immunize a child with a thimersol preserved vaccine based on the severity (individual or community) of the illness being immunized against. If the risk associated with the illness is small. As an theoretical example, HIB is nearly entirely a day-care based illness. It is a critical illness, but is rarely found in children who are not in day care during the preschool years. Given the choice between an HIB with thimersol vaccine and the (extremely minimal) risk she would contract HIB given that I was a stay-at-home mom, I would have declined the vaccination. My decision would have been different had she been in child care during the critical years.

The autism trend argument bothers me because it ignores so many variables (I suggested two above) that it is not (in my opinion) a scientifically sound argument. Recently I discovered that not only is it scientifically unsound (in my opinion), but it is based on a false hypothesis.

I responded to your post since the conventional wisdom is that thimersol is no longer being used in vaccinations children are urged to have. I think people need to know that is not uniformly true so they can make informed decisions.

[NoBorders]

75. Yup - rates of diagnosing things like Asperger's

Is going up, because it was not until relatively recently even a 'diagnosis', i.e., in the DSM-IV. And I do have a dog, or rather a son, in this fight.

[happyslug]

43. Mercury-Autism is still a good argument, but the main thrust is coal

See by thread below which goes into details about the increase in the amount of Mercury being released into the air we breath since the 1960s. This involved NOT only an increase in the amount of coal we are burning, but that the coal we are NOW burning has much higher Mercury content then the coal we burned 40 years ago.

[nodehopper]

53. actually, no new vaccines with it are being manufactured

[Ms. Toad]

62. Unfortunately, that is not correct.

Flu vaccines are manufactured every year (so it is not just old stock being used up), and DO contain thimersol

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/thimerosal.htm

(Edited to correct clutzy fingers)

[smiley_glad_hands]

51. Oops, the rate increased.

I don't have a dog in this fight either. My pediatrician says the only shot she has in the office with mercury is the flu shot and no she didn't push that on to me either, and specifically said she wasn't doing that one in the series we recently got.

[Djinn]

8. yay

even more people with a scintilla of information and even less understanding will insist that immunising kids is evil and will put everyone else's kids at risk by refusing to immunise.

Even if immunisation DID cause autism (which there is not one single shred of credible scientific evidence) I'd rather my kid had autism than died.

Many people pushing this barrow are simply looking for answers for their children but many others are unethical con men selling "herbal" remedies and other quackery.

[ursi]

11. " RFK Jr. says Thimerosal and autism link is clear "

For years, the connection between thimerosal in vaccines and the development of autism has been argued. Studies continue to be presented in favor of whatever side of the fence being argued, but many people are still confused over what the official stance on the subject is.

Six out of every 1,000 kids have autism, which Robert F. Kennedy Jr. continues to attribute to Thimerosal. Kennedy has recently written an article about the possible Thimerosal and autism link in the current issue of Rolling Stone. In an interview on the ‘Scarborough Country' program, Kennedy said the autism blame falls on the government and its continued efforts to cover their tracks.

Thimerosal was first put in vaccines in the 1930s as a preservative, which Kennedy says is when autism cases began to appear. When the vaccine schedule was increased, thus requiring children to receive 24 vaccines from the previous 10 that prior generations received, the Thimerosal content also significantly increased without, according to Kennedy, first being analyzed to determine the impact a cumulative effect of the mercury would have on children.

Kennedy said the increased vaccine schedule meant children were being injected with 400 times the amount of mercury the FDA or EPA considers safe, and that when a child is born and injected on his/her first day with a Hepatitis B shot, EPA guidelines would mean the baby has to be 275 pounds to safely absorb it. As a reflection, Kennedy said by 1999, one in every 2,500 American children had autism, and today, one in every 166 children has autism.

more...

http://www.thimerosal-news.com/news/thimerosal-autism-news.html

[Lydia Leftcoast]

73. Is RFK Jr. an expert on pediatrics or immunology?

Countries that NEVER had mercury in vaccines are also seeing increases in autism.

The risk of whooping cough or diphtheria or polio (which used to kill thousands of children each year), especially if large numbers of children are unimmunized, is much greater than the unproven policy of children developing autism.

How do you know it's not other aspects of modern life: plastic nursing bottles, soy formula, car exhaust, being set down in front of the TV at too early an age, viral infections, anything.

We won't know without exhaustive epidemiological studies, back-checking EVERYTHING that autistic children experienced. .

In the meantime, if I had a child, I would make sure that it got immunized. Better a tiny, tiny risk of autism (if there indeed is any) than dying of whooping cough, diphtheria, measles, or polio or spreading them to other children or unimmunized adults.

Parents can be real ninnies at times, like the ones who won't let their kids play outside for fear of abduction.

[OKthatsIT]

56. GOOD. So where's the FLOURIDE EPISODE?

[truthisfreedom]

10. The real concern is, something in our environment is accelerating autism cases.

And we'd better find out what it is. Distractions like this are useless. The writers of that show are way behind the research and studies being done.

[varkam]

36. No. There is probably a similiar *actual* incidence of autism now as there has been in the past.

There is no autism "epidemic". The number of autism cases have been climbing for three main reasons: there has been an expansion of the diagnostic criteria for what is considered autism spectrum disorders (ASD), there has been increased training of physicians w/ respect to autism (in the past it would be diagnosed as mental retardation), and there has been increased surveilance. The supposed epidemic of autism is hokum.

[NoBorders]

76. Yes! Thanks. nt

[NoodleyAppendage]

12. Mercury is a NEUROTOXIN. PERIOD. Regardless of apparent non-autism link...why give it to kids?

I get the roll-eyes everytime we go to the pediatric clinic and demand the thimerosal-free flu vaccine. Each time the clinicians become dismissive, I stop them in their tracks by asking a simple question:

"Why is it necessary to give a neurotoxin to infants...even in small doses? Sure it probably won't kill or severely damage my child, but neither will a cigarette or a shot of whiskey, but you would have severe objections to those substances...what's the difference?"

Generally they pause and reluctantly agree that thimerosal is a POISON.

J

[varkam]

18. Vitamin C is also toxic in high enough doses.

I guess you won't be giving any of that to your children, then.

[joeglow3]

26. Water can kill you if you drink too much...

...none of that for me, then.

[NoodleyAppendage]

34. Straw man stupidity.

I wasn't arguing your point of little vs. much. I was noting why even bother giving a neurotoxin when you don't have to. There are Thimerosal-free versions of most, if not all (maybe not rabies), vaccines, so what's the harm in avoiding the vaccines that have the problem substance?

J

[varkam]

35. I wasn't the one comparing thimerosal to a cigarette or a shot of whiskey...

I believe that was you. Of course, there really is no comparison between the two except in high doses, but never mind.

Thimerosal is not toxic unless the dose is high enough. Vitamin C is not toxic unless the dose is high enough. Yet Thimerosal is a poison whereas vitamin C is not? A bit of special pleading, perhaps?

[NoodleyAppendage]

37. Please provide references that show biochemically that thimerosal is non-toxic in low doses.

I don't think you have ANY evidence to back up that assertion. A bit of a special pleading, perhaps?

J

[varkam]

40. Thimerosal is usually found in...

...very small concentrations in vaccines. In animal studies, toxic effects usually don't start showing up until around several thousand times the dose administered to humans in vaccines. Additional (and as I'm sure you are aware) all vaccines go through Phase I, II, and III clinical trials to evaluate for safety and effectiveness. Also, it is important to bear in mind the differences between ethylmercury (what is found in vaccines) and methylmercury (what the EPA guidelines are based on) as ethylmercury is not nearly as toxic as methylmercury.

http://www.fda.gov/CbER/vaccine/thimerosal.htm#pres

ETA Here's another link that another poster down the way that also addresses your question: http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/pr/news/story.cfm?id=160

[Tiberius]

20. We will be delaying our vaccinations

I will be a Dad in one week and we've decided to get the vaccines, but delay them a bit. I find no compelling reason to inject my baby with something within 12 hours of it being born.

Sadly I would trust the whole process more if I thought we had a real FDA with teeth, and not stacked with government lackies.

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[NoodleyAppendage]

32. No. I wouldn't delay them...only make sure they are not Thimerosal-based.

The risks of not vaccinating outweigh the risks of Thimerosal, but you have a choice. Just ask for the Thimerosal-free versions of the vaccines. I believe the CDC website has a breakdown of the common vaccines and which still contain traces of Thimerosal.

J

[Ilsa]

50. With mom breastfeeding, baby will be protected against many illnesses/

Our children didn't get anything before two month checkup.

I'm not convinced that vax is the problem, but I do believe there are more children with autism. There sure are alot of kids with delayed speech and with autistic behaviors, pretty simple autistic criteria, in my son's class. The speech therapists and teachers are telling me there is a huge increase, as well. They are also concerned about pollution from our farm belt area. Some of us think that some fetuses are genetically predisposed to assault from environmental pollutants.

[nodehopper]

54. what about the fact that the same vaccines are administered in other countries?

Where FDA is not involved? Countries that seemingly care about their citizens more that the US gov't does?

[Tiberius]

70. Do you know this for a fact?

Do you know which vaccines are administered in which countries, and to what degree? In the U.S., my child is scheduled for some 35 vaccinations in its early life. I don't know what other countries do, but am in the process of trying to find out... so if I can find, or someone can point to, data that says that Europe has a very similar schedule, then yes... it would make me feel better about it.

Regardless, it's the fact that they administer the Hep B vaccine within 24 hours of birth that has me bothered the most, but we asked our pediatrician and he had absolutely no objection to doing it later. There is simply zero reason for that other than convenience to the medical system.

[Tumbulu]

79. I would like to hear the reason why the Hep B vaccine is recommended for infants at all

I am under the impression this is a disease eradication effort, not something most infants are exposed to.

And why any vaccines prior to 6 months if being breastfed and not in day care?

[joeglow3]

28. Since this was to be phased out 9 years ago

I would switch offices if I were you. Sounds like you go to an atiquated clinic.

[NoodleyAppendage]

33. Duke University Medical Center. Not antiquated.

Almost ALL major medical centers use a combination of Thimerosal-free and Thimerosal-based flu vaccine. It all comes down to economics. Thimerosal saves the hospitals money as they can pull many vaccine doses from one vial, while the Thimerosal-free versions are more expensive and single-use.

At Duke, what happens is an early rush to get the Thimerosal-free flu vaccine version, of which there is a limited supply bought by the hospital system. Once these are depleted, then they revert to the neurotoxin-laced vaccine version.

J

[NorthernSpy]

38. you get more mercury from a tunafish sandwich...

... than from a thimerosal-preserved vaccine.


The amount of mercury in a dose of vaccine is a drop in bucket compared to the amount of mercury that is in our bodies anyway just as a result of living on Planet Earth.

Thimerosal makes vaccines more stable and reduces the costs of production and storage -- a huge factor making them affordable enough for universal use.


http://www.urmc.rochester.edu/pr/news/story.cfm?id=160

[Ian David]

19. So, the show is going to be like "Boston Legal" for stupid people?

Are they also going to do a show where they sue the state because the mandatory seatbelt law kept their client from being "thrown clear"?

[robcon]

21. It's awful that parents are allowed to make those decisions.

The state should always make decisions for stupid, uninformed parents. :sarcasm:

[bemildred]

22. Indeed, why are they allowed to interfere with the work of medical authorities?

Don't they know that they are too ignorant to see what is best for their child?
:sarcasm:

[Pavulon]

55. Keep Your Measles, Mumps, and Rubella

victim kids in a bubble. Until then by not immunizing your ankle biters you put the rest of the population at risk.

Immunization as public health can tolerate a good number of stupid people who choose not to vaccinate their kids. Like idiots who dont carry jumper cables, everyone else covers them. Because the responsible people are resistant to infection.

However if the stupidity grows, fired by garbage that the Lancet retracted, the system becomes unsafe.

Reality is DSS will take custody of your children now in most states if you actually choose to do this.

Sudan is great, go for a visit and get some polio.

[bemildred]

57. Do you always get so upset when people disagree with you?

You won't win many people over that way, you know.

[enki23]

66. obviously many parents DON'T know what's best for their children

being a parent doesn't give you magical powers of discernment. that should be bleedingly fucking obvious to anyone who isn't part of the paroblem, and most likely even obvious to the majority of those who are.

[bemildred]

67. Ah, another person that thinks getting spitting angry is the solution to the "paroblem". nt

[enki23]

68. gosh, looks like i forgot how to spell "problem" again. probably because of how spitting mad i am.

and yes, people need to be angry about this. because angry people might actually try to do something about it. sitting back and watching fools try to kill their children, and the children of others, isn't going to work. i'm spitting mad, alright, and for a good goddamned reason. i'm not worried about changing the minds of the committed anti-vaccine idiots. i'm much more interested in forcing them to do what is right and necessary for their own children, and everyone who comes in contact with them.

i'm perfectly comfortable with legislative, and if necessary coercive action to take away "right" of parents to abuse their children. parents who beat their kids often "know what's best" for them too.

[bemildred]

69. Well, good luck to you with that. nt

[Tiberius]

71. What a leap!

Questioning the vaccination schedule does not equal "beating our children".

If it's a highly contagious and/or dangerous disease, with a vaccine that's effective, then fine... force me to vaccinate my child. I have no problem with that. If there's risks associated with the vaccine, then we as parents accept that.

What I do have a problem with is the fact that the CDC seemingly rubber stamps every vaccine that comes down the pike and adds it to the mandatory schedule.

[happyslug]

25. No comment about Coal and Autism?

They are three ways Mercury can get into you, first is by Vaccine that use Mercury as a preservative. Now being phased out but was (and is) a source, mostly in young children. Second is mercury in non-gold fillings. These were (and are) popular for they are cheaper than gold, but Mercury was the binding agent. This is a source of mercury in adults as the mercury leaks from the teeth into your body.

The third, and by far the largest source of Mercury, is by breathing air polluted with Mercury. This pollution is from the burning of coal to produce electricity. Thus the issue is NOT the vaccination but Mercury.

Aside: Even if the main source of the Mercury was from pollution, if it can be shown that mercury is the cause AND one source of that Mercury was the vaccinations, the fact that the main source was something else is unimportant in any lawsuit. If you are the victim of a problem caused by several people you have the right to sue all of them or each of them (Jointly and Severally). If you win, the Defendant you sued has the right to sue the others for "Contribution" but he or she has to pay you FIRST and then sue the other potential causes of the problem for contributions.

Given the big push for Coal over the last 20 years, the last thing power companies want is to be held liable for Mercury caused aliments. The records of where Mercury is coming from is while known, the issue is does it cause most of the cases of Autism? The answer to that is becoming quite clear, it is a yes, but where is the mercury coming from?

Since the 1960s there has been a shift from Eastern Coal (Primary Bituminous) to Western Coal (Primary Ligate). Eastern Coal is hotter and has more Sulfur but less other impurities in it then Western Coal. The shift was do to both the unionization status of most Eastern Mines (UMW) and Western Mines (Mostly non-union) AND the fact of how much sulfur the user could admit (The less sulfur, the less need for Scrubbers to scrub out the Sulfur, if the requirement was set low, Eastern Coal was preferred for it burned hotter and cleaner, but if the Sulfur content was set just above the sulfur content of Western Coal, you could avoid installing the Scrubbers at all and save money, thus Western Coal would be preferred. The regulation on Sulfur was generally set to encourage the use of Western Ligate Coal).

Notice I did NOT mention Anthracite coal, the cleanest burring coal. Anthracite is also the hardest to mine and is the dominate coal in Eastern Pennsylvania. It has NOT been part of the great increase in coal burring over the last 20-30 years, in fact Anthracite production has DROPPED.

Just a comment on Ligate coal and Mercury which may be the REAL cause of this problem.

More on Mercury and Autism:
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/33/9707
http://www.infowars.com/articles/science/mercury_air_pollution_autism.htm
http://autisminnb.blogspot.com/2007/10/autistic-children-canaries-in-coal-mine.html
http://www.mercola.com/2005/apr/2/autism_mercury.htm
http://www.panda.org/about_wwf/what_we_do/climate_change/news/index.cfm?uNewsID=20796
http://www.usautism.org/USAAA_Newsletter/usaaa_newsletter_103007.htm
http://www.utsystem.edu/news/clips/dailyclips/2005/0312-0318/UTHSCSA-HC-links-031705.pdf
http://www.prleap.com/pr/105706/

Decline in Autism with a Ban on Mercury:
http://autismcoach.com/Autism%20Declines%20When%20Mercury%20Vaccines%20Banned.htm

Reports on the "Studies" showing "no link" between Autism and Vaccines:
http://www.bolenreport.net/feature_articles/feature_article061.htm

Ligate Coal has twice the Mercury of Sub-Bituminous (Another Western Coal):
http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2006/10/11/news/state/37-mercury.txt

Bituminous has less mercury in it than ligate coal, and when "cleaned" loses even more of the Mercury in it:
http://energy.er.usgs.gov/health_environment/mercury/mercury_coal.html

Study on Coal fire plants, finding most plants designed to burn Ligate removing 0% of the mercury in coal, while most plants design to but Bituminous coal remove 95 % of the mercury.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/servicerpt/mercury/analysis.html

Study showing Ligate Ash release Mercury into the Atmosphere while Bituminous ash Absorbs Mercury:
http://www.allbusiness.com/sector-56-administrative-support/waste-services-other/1191568-1.html

Thus the increase in Autism may be the switch to ligate coal and the increased mercury released

[varkam]

29. Cherry-pick, much?

:shrug:

[joeglow3]

31. Amen. nt.

[happyslug]

41. No, but facts are hard to face at times.

Much of our Bituminous is shipped overseas (It is a better fuel for Steel production than Ligate), thus you have the situation where Coal in mined in Western Pennsylvania and shipped overseas, and then we import coal to produce our Electricity.

I was pointing out a problem, coal has been burned in the US for over 200 years, yet we have ONLY seen an increase in Autism as we switched from burning primary Bituminous and Anthracite to Ligate. It may be cherry picking or the reason for the increase in Autism over the last 40 years has been the switch to ligate from bituminous coal. Given that ligate coal has much higher levels of mercury then either Bituminous and Anthracite, it may be the cause of the increase in autism than any other single factor.

Secondary, I mentioned that under the law, if a group of people does someone a harm, that person can sue all or any of them for compensation. The victim could sue the person who used a pencil while others were using baseball bats, all that is needed is to slow HARM to the Victim and the Perpetrator was ONE of the persons who did the harm. No need to show that the perpetrator did ALL of the harm or even a Majority of the harm, all that needs to be shown is the perpetrator was involved, even if the actual harm done by the perpetrator is minor or insignificant compared to the harm done by others.

Thus if the main cause of the Harm is mercury from Coal, does NOT relieve a supplier of Vaccines free from liability IF SOMEONE IS HARMED BY MERCURY AND THE VACCINE HAD MERCURY IN IT.

Now this rule has been modified over the years. Starring in about 1800, you had the Contributory negligence doctrine, a Victim could NOT recover from a perpetrator if the victim was at fault even to an minor or insignificant degree. This was referred to as "Contributory negligence" and forbade any recovery. Starting in the 1950s the courts (and state Legislatures) started to modify this Doctrine (Once people in Juries learned of it and started to find victims in NO WAY AT FAULT, even if they were in part). Under the new doctrine of "Comparative Negligence" any award was reduced ONLY by the proportion of negligence the Victim was at fault.

The problem with Vaccines and other medicines is that the "victim" is almost NEVER at fault. i.e. how is the Victim to fully understand the risks he or she is taking in taking the medication? especially if the victim is a child?.

The Asbestos cases are the best example of this problem. Asbestos was a known problem by the 1880s, but industry refused to tell anyone of the problems tell it came out in the 1960s. How could a victim KNOW he was taking a risk by working around asbestos (Especially since its fire Resistance was PUSHED as a Safety Feature)? Juries had problem finding workers with asbestos related problems in any way at fault for their disease. Strict liability became the rule and the Asbestos makers all went into bankruptcy.

The same with Mercury, the harm is well known, just because the Government says it is safe, does not make it safe. The courts have long ruled people are liable for their own actions, as are corporations, they can NOT rely on Government rules and regulations to avoid doing what they need to do to avoid harm to others. I can not run 60 ton trucks over a bridge that I know can NOT handle such loads just because the Highway department says I can. I can NOT produce an unsafe product just because the Government grades and rates it, if I know the product is unsafe. Such unsafe produce do NOT become safe just because some Government agent calls it safe. In litigation I can use the Agent's opinion to show it was NOT intentional and maybe reduce my liability, but such agent's actions can NOT relieve me of my duty to produce a safe product.

Mercury is the problem agent in this matter. Mercury seems to be tied in with most (but not all) autism, and most of the increase in Autism over the last 40 years. Mercury, like lead and the "heavy metals" do severe harm to the body and the mind. Just because the Government says so much mercury in the air we breath is "safe" does NOT make it "safe". Just because the Government says so much Mercury in vaccines are "safe" does NOT make in "safe". Growing evidence exist that Mercury in the amount being released into the environment can cause harm, thus exposure to Mercury has to be reduced and if that includes reductions in some vaccines, it may be worth the cost.

[joeglow3]

27. Lets have 57% kids die from staph infections from vaccines instead.

Just like with the diphtheria vaccine in the 1920's, when we had no preservatives.

[depakid]

39. So- ABC gets fined millions for showing a woman's bum

whereas anti-science programs are just fine.

Wow.

[Zhade]

45. Oh man, more woo-woo bullshit that kills.

Such ignorance of science in the world - even here, in this thread.

[lanlady]

49. are people that stupid?

If you don't get your child immunized due to a fictional TV show, you're too dumb to be a parent.

[enki23]

52. yes, they are.

and yes, they are.

[NoodleyAppendage]

78. People aren't suggesting not to immunize...just get the Thimerosal-free versions.

Thimerosal (mercury derivative), whether it causes autism or not, is still a NEUROTOXIN. Why give it to kids if you don't have to?

J

[bemildred]

58. Scarier Than Fiction: Pediatricians Try To Censor ABC

On Monday, the American Academy of Pediatrics will release the contents of a foreboding letter sent last week to ABC/Disney executives, demanding they cancel the January 31 premiere of a new legal drama series, Eli Stone, because it features a family attorney who successfully argues in court that a mercury-containing flu vaccine caused autism in one child.

The letter, signed by AAP President Renee Jenkins, borders on near-hysteria over a fictional television entertainment. It ominously warns that ABC "will bear responsibility for the needless suffering and potential deaths of children from parents' decisions not to immunize based on the content of the episode."

Dr. Jenkins calls on ABC to cancel the episode but, anticipating a refusal, urges executives to run a disclaimer that "no scientific link exists between vaccines and autism," if the offending network "persists" in airing the show.

I share the AAP's concern that parents should not be driven away from protecting their children from dangerous, even deadly diseases. But parents are far too smart to base such an important decision as immunization on the "content of the episode" of a single drama on broadcast television.

http://www.alternet.org/healthwellness/75248/?page=1

[ursi]

59. if it is no big deal then why are the pediatricians trying to stop it?

They must like their kickbacks from the pharmacuetical companies.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

60. yes that has to be the reason

Or they could actually know what they're talking about.

In every country in the western world, medical authorities say there is no proof of a link between autism and vaccines, from the corporate market system of the US, to the Nordic social democracies.

[bemildred]

63. Well, I was thinking they might be concerned about liability issues.

I generally favor having your kids vaccinated etc. at the right time, but I don't know how to explain the hysterical reaction except fear about something, and liability is the first thing that comes to mind.

[enki23]

64. because they don't want to have to treat our kids for diphtheria

the lazy bastards. it's only about ten percent fatal with modern medical treatment, after all. providing extensive medical care, including treatment with actual pharmaceuticals rather than with biologicals like vaccines, doesn't make doctors any money. all these vaccines, on the other hand, are big, big money. especially the kickbacks they get for administering them.

another possibility is that they are smart enough to know that the deliberate spread of this sort of lie on prime time television might not be such a good fucking idea, given our generally shared interest in avoiding actual dead, maimed, and sick children. because they're smart enough to know that millions of americans are really, really fucking stupid. some americans even think pharmaceutical companies give kickbacks to pediatricians when they go out of their way to give children their government mandated vaccinations. yes, some are even foolish enough to believe there's big money in convincing people to things they are required to do by law (in most places, barring certain exceptions, which--unfortunately--includes exemptions for those who claim their callous fucking idiocy is based on their religion, a claim which is not at all hard to believe).

it's all a goddamned conspiracy.

[Nevernose]

74. What about the near-hysteria over the fictional connections between vaccines and autism?

There aren't any scientific studies that show a link between autism and vaccines. However, propagating a show that propagates a dangerous urban legend is irresponsible.

And the writer's claims that "parents are far too smart?" More than half of this country voted for George W. Bush in the last election, despite four years of evidence to the contrary. Americans, by and large, are notoriously anti-intellectual.

[bemildred]

77. They are nuts too.

But I generally expect more of "professionals" that claim to be scientifically trained and all that. I don't feel that the correct answer to parents that are skeptical about doing whatever some doctor tells them to is anger and police state tactics.

[Anarcho-Socialist]

61. It makes sense

that the whole vaccine-autism "link" can only be presented in a fictional story.

[cureautismnow]

65. The LP et al (2004) Paper Calculations were IN ERROR.

"Blood Levels of Mercury Are Related to Diagnosis of Autism: A Reanalysis of an Important Data Set"

The question of what is leading to the apparent increase in autism is of great importance. Like the link between aspirin and heart attack, even a small effect can have major health implications. If there is any link between autism and mercury, it is absolutely crucial that the first reports of the question are not falsely stating that no link occurs. We have reanalyzed the data set originally reported by Ip et al. in 2004 and have found that the original p value was in error and that a significant relation does exist between the blood levels of mercury and diagnosis of an autism spectrum disorder. Moreover, the hair sample analysis results offer some support for the idea that persons with autism may be less efficient and more variable at eliminating mercury from the blood."

http://jcn.sagepub.com/cgi/content/abstract/22/11/1308

--------------------------------------------------------

They either LIED for Big Pharma or were grossly incompetent in their work.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

72. Further down on this page you apologized. Please don't! You did a great thing!

This information should get out. Why shouldn't it?

Thimerosal (from what I know about it), is a mercury-containing preservative, used as a preservative in vaccines commonly given to babies, children and adults.

Mercury is a substance toxic to humans. One exposure, depending on the quantity and length of exposure, and the age of the individual, can cause either death or have long-term consequences. It is best known for its neurotoxic effects. Consequences of exposure to mercury can have any, some or all of the following:

Mental disturbances, memory loss, mood swings
Inability to think and learn
Damage to a growing child brain, damage to the unborn
Damage to the heart, kidneys, lungs and immune system.
Impairment of movements, speech, hearing, walking
Impairment of peripheral vision
Odd sensations such as pins and needles & numbness
Lack of coordination
Muscle weakness
Rashes

Thimerosal is a VERY cheap preservative, and vaccine manufacturers don't want to have to test a new preservative because testing is expensive and because they have huge supplies of Thimnerosal on hand. Suspicions are that they'll eventually be pressured to stop all usage of Thimerosal in vaccines in the U.S., and I heard through the grapevine that in order to continue to make huge profits and lose nothing, they're planning to send the Thimerosal-laden vaccines to third world nations in exchange for something else.

Canada refuses to innoculate its children with vaccines that contain Thimerosal. Our government has not passed such a law.

There was a HUGE study done to test the premise of a vaccine causing autism. The study was done in Denmark. Lots of kids were tested about 5 years... from vaccination to 5 years later. They found the vaccine did not cause autism. The problem with this study is that they only tested one vaccine: MMR (measles, mumps, rubella). MMR had no Thimerosal at the time that the study was done. They did not test vaccines that *did* have Thimerosal. Vaccines currently found that have or had Thimerosal are: Polio, DTwP (diphtheria, tetanus, pertussis), Meningitis, DT (diphtheria and tetanus), influenza, Tetanus Toxoid, Hep-B.

There are other studies showing the opposite. For example, this one: http://www.ebmonline.org/cgi/reprint/228/6/660.pdf

Many Congressmen have urged the passing of laws like Canada did, to outlaw Thimerosal. They haven't because of corporation pressure (as always), and as we know, there are no elections without corporate money. Our country has no system in place for elections to go forward without needing corporate money.

However, since they're almost at the end of their Thimerosal supply it won't matter. What hopefully will happen is a huge, massive lawsuit that will force these companies to pay through the nose all children who were exposed to this mercury and ended up autistic.