On Tibet Frontlines, Protestors 'Shot Like Dogs'

[Rage for Order]

Source: ABC News

The Chinese military is shooting Tibetan demonstrators "like dogs," a Tibetan exile group said Monday, firing "indiscriminately" intro groups of people protesting Chinese rule. The accusation was leveled by the Tibetan Center for Human Rights and Democracy, a group run by exiled Tibetans in Dharamsala, India, home to the Dalai Lama. Exile groups in India receive some of the few reports from inside Tibet and have provided some of the only reporting from there since last Monday, when the most significant Tibetan protests in 20 years began.

"From reports we have been able to gather, the military forces, they do not tolerate anything more than a few minutes and then immediately they begin shooting or beating. And if the crowd goes out of control they shoot indiscriminately," Norgay said.

He said his group had confirmed that 55 protestors had been shot to death in the last few days. The Tibetan government in exile, which is seated in Dharamsala, maintains that it has confirmed at least 80 deaths in the capital of Lhasa alone during one week of protests.

If the Chinese military is in fact shooting into crowds, the accusation is impossible to prove. The Chinese government has kicked all journalists out of the region and exiled groups' sources are anonymous and refuse to speak directly to the media for fear of their safety.

Read more: http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=4468783&page=1

---

Indiscriminately firing into crowds of protesters? Sounds like Bush/Cheney wet dream :puke:

[SpiralHawk]

1. China showing the antithesis of the Olympic ideal

"The Olympic Truce is an expression of the yearning of mankind for peace, understanding, reconciliation and for the noble notion of distinction, based on honest competition...

"Discrimination with regard to a country or a person on grounds of race, religion, politics, sex or otherwise is incompatible with the Olympic spirit."

Athletes around our world, take note.

[Chovexani]

2. It's shameful that the IOC allowed China to have the Olympics

Unfortunately, the Olympics sold out to corporate interests a long time ago.

[saigon68]

29. the Olympics sold out to corporate interests

[sce56]

5. I like that symbol need to spread it around and here is a link to a youtube video using the Beijing

Logo http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385x106736

[wundermaus]

3. The Olympic Organization is not at fault... it is the family of Nations...

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005680

[1monster]

4. It wouldn't surprise me. Remember Tiananmen Square?

The Chinese government claimed that there were only about 150 people killed. Other estimates said thousands were killed by government forces.

I'd always wanted to visit China. It's artistic beauty called to my soul. But after the summer of 1989, I lost all desire to ever set foot in China.



And this YouTube... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJBnHMpHGRY&eurl=http://www.essentialspirit.com/archives/24

I won't be surprised by anything the Chinese government does to the Tibetans. I remember what they did to their own citizens.

[annm4peace]

6. Protest the Olympics and all Chinese goods !!!!

[daleo]

7. It sounds like Iraq. n/t

[noel adamson]

8. No wonder the Republicans are tight with China.

[Gonnuts]

9. One word

boycott

[peacetalksforall]

10. I started to ask if it's too late to pull out of the Olympics, then realized that

if we did it - it would be pure hypocrisy considering what our leaders have done.

Sadly, seriously. Everything is so messed up, how can we really protest? China is an OK country with our leaders. Cuba and Venezuela are the evil countries.

May the souls of the Tibetans rest in peace.

More soldiers ordered to kill brothers.

[David__77]

11. There's a lot of disinformation on both sides going on I'm sure.

The Tibetan lamaists are sure to come up with exaggerations, while the Chinese government will downplay everything. Likely, it is not as widespread as portrayed in the US/UK media.

[Kaleko]

12. Huh? Where are you getting your information from?

Calling them "The Tibetan Lamaists" is a dead giveaway that you are ill informed.

Sheesh! Who are you working for? The LAIB's (League of Arrogant, Ignorant Bloviators) would be my first guess.

[David__77]

13. I'm very well-informed on Tibet and its history.

I should clarify that I mean the theocratic Lamaists, and not the ones who respect separation of religion and state. The slave-owning aristocracy was no good to those who were enslaved until just the last few decades. A lot of Westerners are duped by the PR campaigns of figures with ulterior motives.

[Kaleko]

16. Clearly, you haven't been there yourself - or in touch with any Tibetan refugees

The Tibetans are a deeply spiritual people, innocent in many ways. The "separation of Church and State" is a dualistic concept that makes sense only to a western mind with no clue about what motivates this ancient culture built around achieving enlightenment.

Anyway, the whole argument is a strawman, tossed into the discussion to distract from the fact that long-suffering protesters against a brutal regime are being massacred.

[David__77]

17. That's so condescending.

"Enlightenment?" You act like serfdom is somehow idyllic. No such thing at all! Are there a lot of Tibetans who want independence? Yes. There are also a lot who don't. Fifty years ago, most Tibetans were basically slaves living in the service of the Lamaist aristocracy. That's a fact, and no amount of PR is going to make that sound good to most Tibetans.

[Kaleko]

18. "You act like serfdom is somehow idyllic." Nonsense. Serfdom is not the issue here...

At issue is the brutal oppression of Tibetans by communist Chinese soldiers for over 50 years, amounting to slow, cultural and physical genocide. But you know that you're using strawmen to inject doubt about what is going on. Thus, I'm outta here as far as your pontificating discourse is concerned.

[SpiralHawk]

21. Tibet "belongs" to China, the way Cuba "belongs" to the USA

Not at all. Just ugly old greedy imperialism.

[Chovexani]

31. LOL, comedic post of the day

Did you ever stop to think that the reason there's so much "disinformation" as you put it is because the Chinese government won't actually allow anyone in there to investigate what is going on?

Your post is tantamount to not believing any of the atrocities committed by the Bush administration because they won't allow anyone to investigate them.

[Kaleko]

14. Please support helpless Tibetans by signing this petition...

Excerpt from an email by Avaaz.org. (people who know first-hand what they're talking about).



The Tibetan Nobel peace prize winner and spiritual leader, the Dalai Lama has called for restraint and dialogue: he needs the world's people to support him. Click below now to sign the petition--and tell absolutely everyone you can right away--our goal is 1 million voices united for Tibet:

http://www.avaaz.org/en/tibet_end_the_violence/97.php/?...

China's economy is totally dependent on "Made in China" exports that we all buy, and the government is keen to make the Olympics in Beijing this summer a celebration of a new China, respected as a leading world power. China is also a very diverse country with a brutal past and has reason to be concerned about its stability -- some of Tibet's rioters killed innocent people. But President Hu must recognize that the greatest danger to Chinese stability and development comes from hardliners who advocate escalating repression, not from Tibetans who seek dialogue and reform.

We will deliver our petition directly to Chinese officials in London, New York, and Beijing, but it must be a massive number before we deliver the petition. Please forward this email to your address book with a note explaining to your friends why this is important, or use our tell-a-friend tool to email your address book--it will come up after you sign the petition.

The Tibetan people have suffered quietly for decades. It is finally their moment to speak--we must help them be heard.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

15. Done.

Thank you. :hug:

[Fedja]

19. Judgment

...is easy to pass from the outside. I don't assume to know the details to the conflict which would allow me to pass judgment on who's right.

Just one question though, what would the US do if Texas decided it wants independence? Think on that for a second. :)
The Iraqi people protest the US a lot and demand the US army's departure from Iraq. Has that wish been honored?

Black-and-white opinions on international affairs are retarded.

[Kaleko]

20. China invaded Tibet illegally from 1949 - 1951 and wreaked havoc on a sovereign people

Check out this link: http://www.tibet.com/WhitePaper/white2.html

The Tibetans are not Chinese to begin with, so you cannot compare them to Texans wanting independence from the US.

The fact that the Iraqui people's wish to be free of US invaders has not been honored doesn't make their plight any less compelling to those who have some empathy and a conscience.

Retarded opinions... indeed, those have no place around here.

[Fedja]

24. Sigh...

Your white paper source:
"This site is maintained and updated by The Office of Tibet, the official agency of His Holiness the Dalai Lama in London."

All I'm trying to say is that you can't see the world as black and white. Citing a Dalai Lama source further compounds you acknowledge but one view of the situation.

Now, before you go all foamy around the mouth, allow me to elaborate. I love Dalai Lama, I do. He's a swell guy and fights for the independence of his people. I admire that. But NOTHING in international politics is black&white. EVER.

You get your information from the US MSM, EU media, and the Dalai Lama website. You refute Chinese statements as fabrications, because they're the bad guy. Right? Same as the Taliban were the bad guys. Same as Saddam was the bad guy. Same as the "arabs" are the... oh wait, let's give it a few months.



I grew up in Slovenia, the first republic to detach from Yugoslavia. I lived through the Balkan wars. I have immediate family both Bosnian and Serbian. And I kept track of what you guys thought about the region. Trust me when I tell you that you were, are, and will always be spoonfed. Spoonfed cops and robbers, heroes and crooks, rambos and the russian colonels. You're spoonfed 2-tone black and white images of a world rich with color.

Don't buy the bullshit from either side. Always assume that there's more to it, and even tho you may not be able to put your finger on it, at least you'll remain open-minded and curious.

[Kaleko]

34. Fedja, it is you who are making assumptions about where we get our information from

and what we are "buying" as you put it.

I have worked with both, Tibetan and Palestinian refugees and have visited their countries/communities in exile.

That you jumped on the fact that I linked to the Tibetan people's account of events is very telling.

That was a test just to see how biased you are.

Google the history of Tibet and you'll find the same stories, except, of course, when you get into the officially sanctioned Chinese versions which are pure propaganda.

[Fedja]

36. Of course.

I acknowledge the fact that the Chinese are launching their propaganda machine. However, I also assume before anything else that every side with a vested interest is doing the same.

As much as occupations suck, our world has a limited area to parcel out. Borders move all the time, many parts of the world can be called "occupied" if you look at them from one point of view. As a citizen of a region that paid for its independence in rivers of blood a decade ago and as someone who's lost several family members on both sides of the same struggle, I know how these things go. And I also know that most armed conflicts are fuelled from both sides. Both sides have an interest in one particular type of resolution of it, and both sides launch propaganda machines as part of their effort.

That's why I was pointing out that before subscribing fully to one view and rejecting the other, one would be wise to be cautious and critical of all information he gathers in events such as this. If you bother to re-read my statement, I was appealing to critical thought and pointing out that blind trumpeting of one side's position is unwise.

It's sad that so many people fail at realising this, and -that- naive flag waving on all sides of international conflicts is the main reason politicians can rally blind supporters of their agendas in order to fuel their wars.

[bluerum]

22. How about if we just give texas back to Mexico and be done with it.

[ForeignSpectator]

23. Killing protestors is okay because that's what the US would do if Texas wanted

independence??? :crazy:

Besides, the Tibetans don't want independence anymore, that's chinese propaganda. They just want autonomy and live by their culture.

AND given that china invaded Tibet, I think the picture is pretty clear.

[Fedja]

25. Invaded...

AND given that Israel invades Palestine daily...
AND given that the US -bought- Alaska...
AND given that the US as such is a product of invasion...

Some invade, others liberate. Yet liberation is often bloodier than invasion.


I'm not saying killing protestors is ok. It's horrible. Killing anyone is bad mkay. My point was that before one forwards propaganda, he may want to keep an open mind.

EDIT: And yes, don't doubt for a second that any regional independence movement that had a realistic chance of succeeding in the US would get stifled by any means necessary under this administration. The last resort being a drowning in blood.

[ForeignSpectator]

26. Well, look...

...we basically agree, I'd say. You just sounded a lot like "the US does it, too so...?"

I guess the only difference is that there is no benefit of doubt for china as far as I am concerned.

After all, china declared the people's war on Tibet and foreigners had to leave. They also won't allow international investigation of the situation. Well, china doesn't want an audience for what is happening and going to happen. While I won't straight believe everything 100% what the Tibetan side says, the story seems pretty clear to me.

Make up your mind as you wish, keep an open mind, that's definitely a good thing, but don't fall for chinese propaganda either ( Tibet refrained from wanting independence a while ago )


PS : that you compare the current US administration with the chinese government and conclude they handle or would handle this situation the same way shows what we are dealing with here. And would you believe a single word the current US administration had to say?

[Fedja]

33. Indeed..

falling for propaganda is bad, from either side. This is the new "Cold War", with the emerging global empire and superpower, and one which has seen its zenith pass, and now struggles to keep a grip on the top of the foodchain.

Tibet will be embraced by both sides for fingerpointing and armwrestling (same as the Kosovo issue serves the Russians to assert their international influence). The more we buy into one-sided stories, the more we reaffirm their authors that this approach is working to serve their goals. And incidentally, the more handy prolonging the bloodshed of innocents in Tibet remains a viable political policy.

[4dsc]

27. just like Burma.....

SO when are you going to support BOYCOTTING the Olympic's??

[conspirator]

28. Nothing to see here. Keep shopping and watch the Olympics sponsored by mcdonalds n/t

[raccoon]

30. kick nt

[Supersedeas]

32. Any word from Condi -- nothing new since she bailed on Taiwan

[Joanne98]

35. Is there any video yet?

[ckramer]

37. These Dalai Lama troopers finally had their chance

They have been waiting all along to act on the eve of the Chinese Olympics.

Great timing.

Folks, get used to be indiscriminately fired at if you want to be a trouble maker in China.

They even fired at their own Han people in 1989.

You think they have affirmative action for Tibetans? LOL.

If you don't want to die unnaturally, stay out of trouble in China.