Chinese police kill eight after opening fire on monks and Tibet protesters

[Sabriel]

Source: Times Online

Chinese paramilitary police have killed eight people after opening fire on several hundred Tibetan monks and villagers in bloody violence that will fuel human rights protests as London prepares to host its leg of the Olympic torch relay this weekend.

Witnesses said the clash – in which dozens were wounded – erupted late last night after a government inspection team entered a monastery in the Chinese province of Sichuan trying to confiscate pictures of the Dalai Lama.

Read more: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/asia/article3683878.ece

---

Is it time to pull out of the Olympics yet?

[atreides1]

1. Is it time to pull out of the Olympics yet?

It won't happen! It would take someone with principles to refuse to attend.

Unfortunately, principles are only for some, when it comes to a competition like this principles get tossed out the window, sometimes for the chance to win a medal

[xioaping]

37. NO! Keep your politics out of the Olympics

Keep your politics out of the Olympics. We made the mistake once already. It did not good and cost many athletes a once-in-a-lifetime, life-long effort to compete in the Olympics.

[HEyHEY]

41. Fuck the olympics. It's just a fucking scam.

A bunch of rich bastards come into your country and get tax dollars to stage an event then reap all the benefits. That's why it's done somewhere else everytime... cause it's just a raping of public coffers.

[xioaping]

44. That's rediculas talk

Olympics is good.

[HEyHEY]

47. ....

[cornwell]

104. A shame you are using Canadian flag as display pic

A shame you are using Canadian flag as display pic.

[Codedonkey]

132. How dare one of your countrymen have a differing opinion than you???

Please...

[TommyO]

52. China put politics into the Olympics by trying to cleanse your country of dissidents

prior to the opening ceremonies.

[Xithras]

55. Be aware that China has paid posters and bloggers running interference.

Been known for a while now. They're trolling every message board they can find to post pro-China propaganda and attempt to paint the Tibetans as terrorists and their overseas supporters as misguided. They're pointless to argue with.

Paid trolls. I don't know if this guy is one of them, but glance at his reg date.

[Name removed]

63. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Freedom Train]

59. Ha! Politics are conflated with the Olympics whether you like it or not

And wishing the opposite won't make it true. China should be taken to town over this, and the IOC even more so. It's appalling that they even gave it to China in the first place.

[natrat]

60. fuck china fuck the olympics fuck china apologists

[girl gone mad]

86. seconded.

Doubly to the naive regs defending China with the ridiculous argument that "America is worse".

[sudopod]

113. Thirded

Marx was wrong.

Sports are the opiate of the masses.

[Dutch]

127. fourthed

[arikara]

84. I say down with the olympics

the overt brutality of the Chinese government with Tibet is but one valid reason. My husband and many others getting sick from prescription heparin with a toxic ingredient from China is one more. The death of my friend's pet cat along with uncountable thousands other animals is another reason. How many children get sick from date rape beads and toxic levels of lead paint on toys. Personally I don't buy anything if I know it is made in China.

My friends and I won't watch the olympics, and the reasons are very political. Its better to boycott a symbol that really doesn't matter than it is to go out and kill, poison, maim and otherwise do harm the way China is doing.

[stimbox]

100. Statement opposing anti-China campaign

We are opposed to the campaign of disinformation and demonization that is targeting the People’s Republic of China (PRC.) The timing of the campaign is linked to China’s hosting of the 2008 Summer Olympics. That the Olympics are taking place in China is of historic significance and great pride to all the country’s people. It was less than six decades ago that China emerged from a century of colonialist humiliation at the hands of the same big powers that are spearheading the China-bashing campaign today.

Washington is providing financial, political, diplomatic and propaganda support to the racist demonization effort, supposedly because of concern for “human rights.” This is the same government that is directly responsible for the death of one million Iraqis since 2003.

While one out of every three Iraqis have been killed, wounded or displaced since 2003 the US government is eager to have people in the US., especially students, protest any government other than their own. One pretext for the anti-China campaign is the fact that the PRC has trade relations with Sudan. The US wants to overthrow the government of oil-rich Sudan and replace it with a puppet. It has supported “rebel groups” who are prolonging the civil war. The people of the Sudan, who are suffering greatly, are cynically used as a fund raising vehicle by organizations that have raised tens of millions of dollars but have never spent a penny actually helping the people of Sudan, including those who live in the Darfur region.

Demonization campaigns against particular countries and their leaders are not just media exercises. Over the last two decades, such campaigns have preceded the invasions of Iraq and Panama, the bombing war against Yugoslavia, the coups in Haiti and attempted coup in Venezuela, and a threatened war against Iran. The pattern is clear and so too is the danger.

Regarding Tibet, for many centuries a region of China, the hand of Washington in the latest events is obvious for anyone who wants to see. For more than 50 years, the CIA and other U.S. government agencies have trained, funded, coordinated and supported the old feudal and repressive regime in Tibet represented by the Dalai Lama. The CIA front group the National Endowment for Democracy funds the International Campaign for Tibet, the Tibetan Youth Congress, the Tibetan People’s Uprising Movement and the Dalai Lama himself. The U.S. maintains close ties with the Tibetan “government-in-exile” in India, whose real aim is to break away a region making up a quarter of China’s territory. These U.S. actions constitute an effort to de-stabilize and dismember the Peoples Republic of China. The progress in education, women’s rights, employment and health care would be immediately eviscerated if the old serf-owning ruling elite, represented by the Dalai Lama, was brought back to power.

No one, least of all progressive people, should be misled about what is really going on. The real motivation for the anti-China campaign has nothing to do with human rights or liberation, and everything to do with an agenda of global domination.

We the undersigned call for an end to the disinformation and demonization campaign against China, and a halt to the attempts to boycott and disrupt the 2008 Olympics.

Initial Signers:

Ramsey Clark, former U.S. Attorney General
Muna Coobtee, Party for Socialism and Liberation
Tony Gonzales, American Indian Movement-West*
Richard Becker, Western Region Coordinator, ANSWER Coalition*
Dave Ewing, Co-Chair,U.S.-China Peoples Friendship Association,San Francisco
Willie Bartolome, Coordinator, Philippine Peasant Support Network (Pesante)-USA
Arturo P. Garcia, Philippine Immigrant Network for Empowerment
Bob Anderson, Stop the War Machine, Albuquerque, New Mexico*
Chuck Kaufman, Co-Coordinator, Nicaragua Network*
Mara Verheyden-Hilliard, Civil Rights Attorney
Peter Erlinder, Law Professor, former President of the National Lawyers Guild
Riva Enteen, member, National Lawyers Guild
Idriss Stelley Foundation
Education Not Incarceration, San Francisco Chapter
San Francisco Village Voice Community Radio
Mesha Monge Irizarry, San Francisco Bayview National Black Newspaper reporter*
Gilberto López y Rivas, Professor and Journalist
Beatrice Eisman, U.S.-Vietnam Friendship Association*
Mario Santos, National Coordinator,Alliance for a Just and Lasting Peace in the Philippines—USA
Jim Lafferty, Interim General Manager, KPFK 90.7 FM Pacifica Radio* and Executive Director, National Lawyers Guild, Los Angeles*
Ecumenical Fellowship for Justice and Peace-Los Angeles
Judi Cheng, New York City, NY
Eli Stephens, Left I on the News
Allen Cooper, Veterans for Peace, GI Rights Hotline*
Peing Baclig, Justice for Filipino American Veterans (JFAV)*
Jack Vergara, Echo Park Community Coalition (EPCC)*
Pons De Leon, First Quarter Storm Network (FQSN)-USA-
Harald Neuber, journalist, Germany
Jazy Bonilla D.C.16 IUPAT Organizer *
Dr. Carmen Mercedes Baez, Argentina
Eladio González, (toto) Ernesto Che Guevara Museum, Argentina
Tara Hui, activist, San Francisco
Christine Araquel, Chair, Kabataang maka-Bayan (KmB,Pro-PeopleYouth), USA
Riya Ortia, UGNAYAN, NJNY
Ernesto Arce, Pacifica Radio, KPFK 90.7FM, Los Angeles*
Salvador Cordon, Coordinator, FMLN, Northern California

[Dutch]

128. Ah, Ramsey Clark, ever the indefatigable enemy of tyrants...

:sarcasm:

[xxqqqzme]

120. Wake up - It was politics that got China the nod in the first place

[kwyjibo]

2. They were trying to confiscate pictures and ended up killing 8 people?

How fucked up is that? I hate this mess.

[natrat]

3. i am now solidly in the FUCK CHINA camp-they suck

[Zachstar]

8. Fuck China!!

[ryanmuegge]

53. If you were going to give the world an enema, China would be the first place to start

Followed by India. Having half of the world's population split between two countries is absolutely inexcusable.

[stimbox]

101. The NED, CIA and the Bush regime thank you! n/t

[Dutch]

126. Because you're either with us or against us, eh?

:eyes:

[sam sarrha]

4. here are some atrocities the Tibetans suffer every day..>>Link>>

http://www.tibettruth.com/birthcontrol.html

the Genocide of the Born.. has murdered about 1.25 million Tibetans, now the Chinese are brutally keeping them from being born

i will not watch the Olympics

[stimbox]

103. Brutally not allowing them to be born?

Are they also unplugging incubators and bayonetting babies?

[ckramer]

105. China has a one-child policy to all its citizen, I think

not just for citizen in the Tibet region.

The reason to restrict population growth is that they have too many people already (1.4 billion?)

It's not a unreasonable national policy in my opinion.

[stimbox]

107. China does have a 1 baby policy, but Tibetans and other ethnic minorities are allowed 2 babies. n/t

[kimmylavin]

5. "Opening fire on monks"

What's wrong with this picture???

[DearAbby]

6. I would support

the Athletes who boycott the games, stand in solidarity against these actions.

[Zachstar]

7. I agree.

If your nation will not boycott this BULLSHIT then we will boycott them and lower the ratings.

I will be calling and letting them know that I will not watch the Olympics and will urge others not to watch. Any athlete that volunteers to not go to these games deserves our support and respect.

The 2008 Olympics have turned bloody and red. So fuck the 2008 Olympics and FUCK modern day China!

[FloridaJudy]

26. Has anyone got a list of Olympic sponsors?

I think the corporations sponsoring the Olympics should hear from us. Gods know the Chinese couldn't care less what we think, but maybe if the corporations realize they're in for a carload of negative publicity effective pressure can be exerted.

[David__77]

9. I'll await confirmation from other sources.

I hope no blood was shed.

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. AP: New Violence Reported in Tibetan Area

By CHRISTOPHER BODEEN – 4 hours ago

BEIJING (AP) — New violence has broken out in a volatile Tibetan region of western China, leaving eight people dead, an overseas Tibet activist group said Friday. China's official Xinhua News Agency said a government official was seriously injured.

The London-based Free Tibet Campaign said police opened fire on hundreds of Buddhist monks and lay people who had marched on local government offices to demand the release of two monks detained for possessing photographs of the Dalai Lama, Tibet's exiled Buddhist leader.

Xinhua made no mention of deaths or injuries among protesters, but said a "riot" had flared up Thursday night outside government offices in the Garze Tibetan Autonomous Prefecture high in the mountains in Sichuan province along the border with Tibet.

It said the official was "attacked and seriously wounded," and said police were "forced to fire warning shots and put down the violence." No other details were given.

more: http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h5Z6bJwtN_roGSIUQiQnfbf2NkhgD8VR4BNO0

[DrCory]

11. If it's not Xinhua...

he won't be satisfied.

[David__77]

13. Not at all.

I'm not satisfied with reports from AP, Xinhua, et al. It takes seeing a lot of sources and reading between the lines to get a clearer picture. I imagine there was violence on both sides. It's quite common in China these last few years.

[Ichingcarpenter]

18. Anyone see Colbert's take on the China crackdown and Olympics?

Being a Buddhist this news is appalling so I nominate it, that being said;

Colbert points out the hypocrisy of the west in this video:
http://www.comedycentral.com/colbertreport/index.jhtml

[LiberalLovinLug]

12. Boycott the Opening Ceremonies

Apparently that compromise was suggested by a French politician and it was promptly shot down by the IOC. I would like to see that idea revived.

It is a way to shame the Chinese government without punishing the athletes. Some of which have trained many years for this one shot. Canceling the whole shabang would punish every country and further isolate and harden China.

I think it would be a devastating image. No public political representation from most every country, as well no athletes when they introduce the various countries: Canada....cricket.......USA......cricket........Germany.......cricket.....

[bitchkitty]

88. Or still have the Olympics, but make the

ceremonies virtual. With the internet, events can be in whatever country is closest to the athletes. Ceremonies could be online...

Maybe I'm just being fanciful, maybe I love the Internet too much. I just don't think that the desires of a few athletes, however heartfelt and lifelong, outweigh the rights of an entire culture.

[ckramer]

14. I think we are played by this Dalai Lama dude

It seems to be his plan:

Get some protest and violence going in Tibet before the Olympics; draw the world's attention to the bloody incidents figuring that without a thought Nancy Pelosi would start to visit him and call for boycotting the Game;

Looks like everything happened perfectly according to the plan.

[spoony]

15. Sometimes I am truly gobsmacked by the things people say here.

[Freddie Stubbs]

19. Hugo Chavez claims that it is the United States which is stirring up trouble:

Venezuela's Chavez blames U.S. for Tibet unrest

Mon Mar 24, 2008 12:36am EDT

CARACAS (Reuters) - Venezuela's socialist President Hugo Chavez blamed the United States for violent protests in Tibet during the last two weeks that he said were aimed at trying to destabilize China.

In comments reported by his press office on Sunday, Chavez said the protests were an example of the U.S. "empire" "going against China" and trying to divide the Asian powerhouse.

Communist China has occupied Tibet, a Buddhist region previously ruled by monks, since a military invasion in 1950.

At least 19 people were killed after protests and rioting against the occupation broke out on March 10.

more: http://www.reuters.com/article/newsMaps/idUSN2330162720080324

[Dorian Gray]

49. Oh Chavez....

ever the statesman. I think his hatred of the USA is blinding him of the injustice in other parts of the world.

[stimbox]

102. Are you on the NED payroll Freddie? If not, you should be. n/t

[fascisthunter]

118. Or on some payroll

definitely not a progressive one.

[Ichingcarpenter]

20. WTF?........ the Dali Lama plan was to get Tibetan monks and Tibetans killed?

Un fricking believable!!!!!

[superconnected]

21. Maybe you should read more about the "dali lama dude" before

writing him off as some mass-murder-planner.

Your statement is making you look severely ignorant - and, I'm someone who hates using that word.

Peace.

[Dorian Gray]

50. Can you provide sources

to "educate" us regarding the "Dali Lama Dude" and his murderous plans for world domination? Because I need my ignorance to be eradicated.

[tavalon]

27. You're joking, right?

I mean, really, you did just forget to put the little sarcasm smiley, right?

"this Dalai Lama dude'?! You did NOT say that.

Wow.

[Posteritatis]

36. That guy beats the same drum on every Tibet thread

He's convinced the Dalai Lama is purest evil, that China's occupation of Tibet is a good thing, and that anything bad happening there was engineered by the DL somehow.

[xioaping]

39. Have you considered the points he makes?

Just wondering. Please don't attack me.

[saigon68]

131. ...

[xioaping]

38. If you study political movement 101 it is obvious

What you suggest is right out of the playbook. Of course the events have been timed this way. Anyone setting out strategy would have this scenario worked out. It would be totally naive to not recognize this. People are easily played. Easily moved. It is the classic, scatter five people throughout a crowd and get them to act in unison to bring about a desired effect.

I suspect some on here will blast you for stating the obvious.

[Selatius]

77. You would have to show proof this is what the Dalai Lama did instead of conjecture passed as fact.

Poly Sci 101 aside, you won't stand up in a courtroom without evidence.

[xxqqqzme]

121. it would be acceptable evidence in a Chinese courtroom

[sudopod]

129. What a load of Deng.

lolz

[Selatius]

78. Got evidence that the Dalai Lama engineered this? Or is this merely your conjecture? nt

[awaysidetraveler]

80. FYI, the Dalai Lama discouraged the recent protests in Tibet, knowing full well that the Chinese

will simply engage in genocide in Tibet again.

If history teaches us any lessons about China's government, it is that they have no qualms about initiating policies of genocide against any citizens within their borders.

[fascisthunter]

117. I Think You are the one "playing"

[Doctor_J]

16. Snark. Last week's headlines read that things were stable and non-violent

The GOP is watching to pick up tips.

[kirby]

17. Don't punish the athletes...

If this country were seriously concerned then we as a nation would use our economic leverage (what we had) to force changes in China. We would impose trade sanctions or penalties. American consumers would boycott Chinese made products.

All this outrage a the Olympics only serves to punish the athletes and is misdirected. I say leave the athletes out of this issue.

[xioaping]

40. I agree

Dont punish the athletes

[Codeine]

69. Fuck the athletes.

Trained monkeys who caper for our amusement rank far below basic human rights.

[spoony]

75. EXACTLY

I cannot believe the short-sightedness of people saying we have to think of the athletes first. Yeah, it might suck for them, but a hell of a lot less than it sucks to be brutally oppressed and killed.

[superconnected]

22. Oh look, China shows it's colors on how much it values human life.

At least the bush admin try to hide their crap by doing it out of the country.

This is just so sickening. I don't know if the athletes will boycott the olympics but I certianly well. I won't be watching now.

[Codedonkey]

23. We can blame the CIA for stirring this up though...

Point and attack China if it makes you feel better, but it's well documented that the CIA has its hand in this...

[Mudoria]

24. You're serious?

:eyes:

[ckramer]

31. It's common knowledge that CIA supported the

Tibetian Khampa guerilla resistance force till early 1970s when Nixon visited China.

[tavalon]

28. Well, if it's so damn documented,

I don't suppose you'll have any trouble putting together your well documented sources for that assertion.

Preferably before you go out for pizza.

[DrCory]

29. Yeah...the party (China)...

which posesses all the military, judicial, and police powers has no responsibility whatsoever.

:eyes:

[HEyHEY]

42. Let's see these "Documents"

[girl gone mad]

87. What is this place becoming?

Mods, please get some control.

Chinese government propaganda does not belong here.

[mrJJ]

25. China does not give a damn

Nothing can stop China from doing anything they (PRC) want to do in Tibet. 10 monks 100 monks 1000 monks. Even if it was splashed on every tv screen and posted on the front page of every newspaper in the world. The standard line will be "This is an internal Chinese affair" stay out of our business.

Its a damn shame. Tibetans monks wear masks when they till the ground to farm so as not to kill even an insect by mistake.

[awaysidetraveler]

81. Does China have a face to save?

On first glance, the government of China appears to have no face; they appear to be shameless, genocidal imperalists.

However, if the shameless government of China cares little for world opinion, then why is it so concerned with gaining the prestige of hosting the Olympics?

[ckramer]

30. Who is Dalai Lama?

Dalai Lama was a slave master and absolute autocrat from Tibet in exile.

Why some democrats like Nancy Pelosi are so gun ho about this kind of character is beyond me.

It's irrational.

The current Chinese government appointed him to be the ruler of Tibet in the 1950's. If he hadn't been duded by some ill advice (CIA?) at that time by taking part in and directing a rebellion in the 1960s and fled to India with his followers, today he wouldn't live like a pariah. He made his wrong choice and seemed to be regretting it everyday.

I think he has to live with this idea now: he will die outside Tibet one day without setting foot on it again.

Politically, Dalai Lama is simply a wedge between the West/US and China.

[Wednesdays]

32. Oh, so you're back? Perhaps you might post some links

to back up your claim. While you're at it, maybe you could answer your critics upthread.
Lest you be accused of being a hit-and-runner.

[ckramer]

33. There is something called google

that you are welcome to look them up.

Let me know which statement I made so far was not true.

[Wednesdays]

34. There is also something called "backing up your claims yourself"

"Go google it" is quite the lazy cop-out.

You still haven't provided links of your own, including to the challenges upthread.
I'll respond once you've done so.

[Kaleko]

35. David 77 and ckramer sound like the Chinese govmt shills that pop up in every thread

about Tibet on the worldwide web.

Just watch them repeat the Chinese party lines over and over ad nauseam.

Goes to show how afraid tyrannical regimes are of the truth.

[xioaping]

45. Chinese govmt shills pop up everywhere. Danm Commies!

My goodness, wern't you just over at the Pubbies website. The same exact post was made over there about commie shills posting. It seems true that nationalism takes over and that all peoples of a nation (no matter their politics) unite under a percevied threat. The International Working Man's Association never had a chance to stop war.

[Kaleko]

46. Go ahead. Post your inane disinformation and kick up threads about the Tibetan's plight.

It's good to see you expose yourselves like this, along with your agenda.

Mind you, most DU'ers have high-functioning bullshit detectors, so I'm not worried.

But you guys obviously are worried enough to infiltrate websites all over the world.

[xioaping]

56. You sound like McCarthy

You are disagreeing with a statement that nationalism most often takes over and trumps the greater good of workers uniting to prevent war? I don't know what BS detector you think you have but it is not working. I'm right here in the U.S. Born and raised.

[awaysidetraveler]

85. Actually, your disinformation campaign sounds more like McCarthy than he does.

What does "nationalism most often takes over and trumps the greater good of workers uniting to prevent war" have to do with what he's saying here about China's role in the subjugation of Tibet's people?

Look, it doesn't matter where you're from: China is responsible for subjugating Tibet, and ignoring that fact or spreading disinformation about it will impress no one.

[xioaping]

93. Impossible. I know not to do that.

I was responding to a comment made in a post. I've definately know not to express an opinion on Tibet that is in any way counter to the position adopted on this board.

[Occulus]

54. You would know, wouldn't you?

I've read your profile. Pardon me if I accuse you of very rank bias on this subject.

[xioaping]

57. I changed it just for you

[Kaleko]

58. which exposes you as a known fabricator on DU

[xioaping]

72. Nothing any different than others have done, you just wish

to make an issue of it. I'm sure I am not the first one to update their profile. Besides, it makes it easier to do my spying and get around your tin foil hat defenses. Hey. What's that? Whose there? Look behind you. Oh my gosh, you missed it.

[sudopod]

130. Even the kids on the short bus

can sometimes point out the obvious.

[awaysidetraveler]

83. Wow, I thought you were going over the line when I read the title of this thread...

but then I looked at the text, and it's full of classic Chinese disinformation and propaganda.

I'm really shocked.

If these posters are actually Chinese, shouldn't someone tell them the truth about their country?

[conscious evolution]

97. Truth about the CCP here--Link

http://ninecommentaries.com/

[stimbox]

108. The nine commentaries is distributed by The Epoch Times which is the falun gong propaganda paper.n/t

[sudopod]

111. OH SHIT

They're doing Tai Chi at us! RUN AWAY!

(yes, I know it's not really Tai Chi, lol)

[stimbox]

123. You could walk away and they wouldn't catch you. They may try and levitate you though. n/t

[Dorian Gray]

51. Honestly

if you are making these assertions, the onus is on your to provide documentation to back them up.

[LanternWaste]

62. It is much better form to source...

It is much better form to source out and cite your references when making an absolute statement(s) rather than asking some else to do it for you...

Just a heads-up.

[ckramer]

66. I have not seen so far specifically the question from above posts

I am willing to look them up again if they narrow down the questions.

[LanternWaste]

73. I'm referring to citing references to back up your *own* assertions...

I'm referring to citing references to back up your *own* assertions you've made in this thread...

And, I'm sure you are aware of your own assertions without them pointed out to you, yes?

[ckramer]

76. Which one?

I made many in this thread.

[LanternWaste]

79. You have made many.

You have made many. And have provided no sources nor citations for any.

So take your pick...

[HEyHEY]

43. Except for he said he will step down if Tibet is granted independence

[awaysidetraveler]

82. Wow, this thread reads like a history textbook from a middle-school class in China.

Is that where you got the information?

What does it say under the entry for Mao?

[girl gone mad]

89. Why waste your time?

No one here is buying what you have for sale.

[Dorian Gray]

48. I can't believe that they got the Olympics...

If anything good comes out of it, hopefully it will be to enlighten the Tibetan situation to the world.

And yes, I do think that there should be some boycotting going on.

[arundhatiroyfan]

61. I'm for boycotting the olympics.

[Better Believe It]

64. 8 Have Been Killed? Where's The Proof?

The key sentence in the "story" told to the Times is: " The Times has been told."

Well .... that's certainly good enough for me!

[spoony]

65. versus what a murderous regime says

which is good enough for you!

[Better Believe It]

67. Some Unidentified Source Told Us ......

Hey, that's gotta be the truth!

Oh .... I didn't support the old line Stalinist type regime headed by Mao nor do I support the current capitalist regime in China run by so-called communists who have discovered they can enrich themselves by embracing capitalism.

Nor do I worship the "God King of Tibet"

So contrary to what you might believe, I don't take for granted the statements or claims made by either the Chinese government or Mr. God King and his religious cult followers in Tibet.

Now that we settled that matter, why do you accept as the "gospel or God King truth" claims made by unidentified sources who don't provide the slightest bit of documentation to back their claims?

"Someone told us blah, blah, blah and blah!"

[Robb]

68. Welcome to DU!

The Dalai Lama ate my baby, too. :eyes:

[Better Believe It]

70. I Believe You!

No need to cite sources or provide documentation.

I have it on good authority that the Chinese government is planning a nuclear strike on Tibet! But, they will be using a precision missile so that only non-Chinese will be nuked!

[LanternWaste]

74. All other things being equal...

All other things being equal, I'll take an unnamed source over the government of China on any day.

As it turned out, the inappropriate amounts of lead in Chinese-made exports this past winter was an unnamed source also. And it turned out to be true despite the initial protestations and denials of the Chinese govt.

But if that means that from your perspective I worship the the "god King of Tibet" as phrased in such an unbiased manner by you, then so be it... :eyes:

[Contrary1]

98. Well, that and Penn and Teller

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3133638

[awaysidetraveler]

90. What kind of proof do you require?

For instance, one of my Chinese-American professors forcibly had her thyroid surgically removed in a Chinese hospital.

She claimed that she tried to refuse the treatment, because she had a stomach ache and no problem with her thyroid. She was then drugged, the cameras started rolling anyway and when she awoke she no longer had a thyroid. The people in charge of operating on her had rank over her, so it was not possible for her to hold them accountable for surgically mutilating her for the sake of a propaganda film on the successes of Chinese medicine.

I heard this, it was a first hand account. I believe her, she is a respectable professor.

Of course, it's just hearsay... right?

Only there's volumes of such accounts, and there's tens of millions of dead still unacknowledged from Mao's regime... there's the missing students from Tianamen Square and there's the disappearing followers of Falun Gong.

So which truth should we believe on the American side of the Pacific?

There are so many truths missing from China's government that--were it not for the decency of Chinese-Americans--one might wonder how we should respect China at all....

Are we only to respect China out of fear?

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[awaysidetraveler]

91. Wow... I would really have to lose my entire sense of history to believe your argument.

First of all, California and Puerto Rico want to be a part of America. They're not trying to break away.

Second of all, Tibet existed for centuries as a nation apart from China, and that's how it still recognizes itself today.

Third of all, Tibet is the continual victim of the current Chinese government's oppression. It's not only that their land has been annexed and that their religion has been made illegal.

You don't have to be American to see that as an abuse of human rights. In fact, you have to be less than Chinese to ignore the abuses of Tibet: you have to be as narrow-minded and fascistic as the current Chinese government is.

[ckramer]

92. I disagree

Tibet may be an independent country centuries ago, which is no longer relevant.

Today Tibet is an area within the territory of China, therefore part of China.

Are you going to argue that fact?

If no, then what is the issue making this thread stays alive?

I don't see that the USSR model was a good one - breaking the country into a dozen pieces.

Today the Russians probably are eating their remorse medicine.

My opinion is - they were very politically naive.

[sudopod]

112. What the fuck

It's ok because it happened a few decades ago?

Well, alrighty then.

[ckramer]

114. Too bad, sudopod

Dalai Lama be damned, Tibet is part of China now.

That is as factual as California is part of the USA.

What are you going to do about it, sudoboy?

[sudopod]

115. Ruin the Olympics, lol.

Enjoy your epic fail on the world stage.

Fuck ur fascism in the ear.

[jman0]

96. There are NO countries that recognize Tibet

Period.
None, not even ONE.
These idiots harking-on about "Free Tibet" are ideological victims to Hollywood and their CIA propaganda.
Did you ever wonder if your Dalai Lama is such a benevolent person, why would he ever accept so much funding from the CIA?

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saigon68]

94. Lots of love in this thread

Lots of F--Bombs too.

LOL

[Endangered Specie]

95. Reminds me of a stinging cartoon in the local paper:

[darue]

99. Tibet hypocrisy called out, I've been meaning to try to say...

Thankfully, Uri's just said it for me, at the moment I couldn't agree more:

"Not You! You!!!"
by Uri Avnery
April 9, 2008
Gush Shalom


"Hey! Take your hands off me! Not you! You!!!" - the voice of a young woman in the darkened cinema, an old joke.

"Hey! Take your hands off Tibet!" the international chorus is crying out, "But not from Chechnya! Not from the Basque homeland! And certainly not from Palestine!" And that is not a joke.

LIKE EVERYBODY else, I support the right of the Tibetan people to independence, or at least autonomy. Like everybody else, I condemn the actions of the Chinese government there. But unlike everybody else, I am not ready to join in the demonstrations.

Why? Because I have an uneasy feeling that somebody is washing my brain, that what is going on is an exercise in hypocrisy.

I don't mind a bit of manipulation. After all, it is not by accident that the riots started in Tibet on the eve of the Olympic Games in Beijing. That's alright. A people fighting for their freedom have the right to use any opportunity that presents itself to further their struggle.

I support the Tibetans in spite of it being obvious that the Americans are exploiting the struggle for their own purposes. Clearly, the CIA has planned and organized the riots, and the American media are leading the world-wide campaign. It is a part of the hidden struggle between the US, the reigning super-power, and China, the rising super-power - a new version of the "Great Game" that was played in central Asia in the 19th century by the British Empire and Russia. Tibet is a token in this game.

I am even ready to ignore the fact that the gentle Tibetans have carried out a murderous pogrom against innocent Chinese, killing women and men and burning homes and shops. Such detestable excesses do happen during a liberation struggle.

No, what is really bugging me is the hypocrisy of the world media. They storm and thunder about Tibet. In thousands of editorials and talk-shows they heap curses and invective on the evil China. It seems as if the Tibetans are the only people on earth whose right to independence is being denied by brutal force, that if only Beijing would take its dirty hands off the saffron-robed monks, everything would be alright in this, the best of all possible worlds.

THERE IS no doubt that the Tibetan people are entitled to rule their own country, to nurture their unique culture, to promote their religious institutions and to prevent foreign settlers from submerging them.

But are not the Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, Iran and Syria entitled to the same? The inhabitants of Western Sahara, whose territory is occupied by Morocco? The Basques in Spain? The Corsicans off the coast of France? And the list is long.

Why do the world's media adopt one independence struggle, but often cynically ignore another independence struggle? What makes the blood of one Tibetan redder than the blood of a thousand Africans in East Congo?

Again and again I try to find a satisfactory answer to this enigma. In vain.

Immanuel Kant demanded of us: "Act as if the principle by which you act were about to be turned into a universal law of nature." (Being a German philosopher, he expressed it in much more convoluted language.) Does the attitude towards the Tibetan problem conform to this rule? Does it reflect our attitude towards the struggle for independence of all other oppressed peoples?

Not at all.

WHAT, THEN, causes the international media to discriminate between the various liberation struggles that are going on throughout the world?

Here are some of the relevant considerations:

*
Do the people seeking independence have an especially exotic culture?
*
Are they an attractive people, i.e. "sexy" in the view of the media?
*
Is the struggle headed by a charismatic personality who is liked by the media?
*
It the oppressing government disliked by the media?
*
Does the oppressing government belong to the pro-American camp? This is an important factor, since the United States dominates a large part of the international media, and its news agencies and TV networks largely define the agenda and the terminology of the news coverage.
*
Are economic interests involved in the conflict?
*
Does the oppressed people have gifted spokespersons, who are able to attract attention and manipulate the media?

FROM THESE points of view, there is nobody like the Tibetans. They enjoy ideal conditions.

Fringed by the Himalayas, they are located in one of the most beautiful landscapes on earth. For centuries, just to get there was an adventure. Their unique religion arouses curiosity and sympathy. Its non-violence is very attractive and elastic enough to cover even the ugliest atrocities, like the recent pogrom. The exiled leader, the Dalai Lama, is a romantic figure, a media rock-star. The Chinese regime is hated by many - by capitalists because it is a Communist dictatorship, by Communists because it has become capitalist. It promotes a crass and ugly materialism, the very opposite of the spiritual Buddhist monks, who spend their time in prayer and meditation.

When China builds a railway to the Tibetan capital over a thousand inhospitable kilometers, the West does not admire the engineering feat, but sees (quite rightly) an iron monster that brings hundreds of thousands of Han-Chinese settlers to the occupied territory.

And of course, China is a rising power, whose economic success threatens America's hegemony in the world. A large part of the ailing American economy already belongs directly or indirectly to China. The huge American Empire is sinking hopelessly into debt, and China may soon be the biggest lender. American manufacturing industry is moving to China, taking millions of jobs with it.

Compared to these factors, what have the Basques, for example, to offer? Like the Tibetans, they inhabit a contiguous territory, most of it in Spain, some of it in France. They, too, are an ancient people with their own language and culture. But these are not exotic and do not attract special notice. No prayer wheels. No robed monks.

The Basques do not have a romantic leader, like Nelson Mandela or the Dalai Lama. The Spanish state, which arose from the ruins of Franco's detested dictatorship, enjoys great popularity around the world. Spain belongs to the European Union, which is more or less in the American camp, sometimes more, sometimes less.

The armed struggle of the Basque underground is abhorred by many and is considered "terrorism", especially after Spain has accorded the Basques a far-reaching autonomy. In these circumstances, the Basques have no chance at all of gaining world support for independence.

The Chechnyans should have been in a better position. They, too, are a separate people, who have for a long time been oppressed by the Czars of the Russian Empire, including Stalin and Putin. But alas, they are Muslims - and in the Western world, Islamophobia now occupies the place that had for centuries been reserved for anti-Semitism. Islam has turned into a synonym for terrorism, it is seen as a religion of blood and murder. Soon it will be revealed that Muslims slaughter Christian children and use their blood for baking Pitta. (In reality it is, of course, the religion of dozens of vastly different peoples, from Indonesia to Morocco and from Kosova to Zanzibar.

The US does not fear Moscow as it fears Beijing. Unlike China, Russia does not look like a country that could dominate the 21st century. The West has no interest in renewing the Cold War, as it has in renewing the Crusades against Islam. The poor Chechnyans, who have no charismatic leader or outstanding spokespersons, have been banished from the headlines. For all the world cares, Putin can hit them as much as he wants, kill thousands and obliterate whole towns.

That does not prevent Putin from supporting the demands of Abkhazia and South Ossetia for separation from Georgia, a country which infuriates Russia.

IF IMMANUEL KANT knew what's going on in Kosova, he would be scratching his head.

The province demanded its independence from Serbia, and I, for one, supported that with all my heart. This is a separate people, with a different culture (Albanian) and its own religion (Islam). After the popular Serbian leader, Slobodan Milosevic, tried to drive them out of their country, the world rose and provided moral and material support for their struggle for independence.

The Albanian Kosovars make up 90% of the citizens of the new state, which has a population of two million. The other 10% are Serbs, who want no part of the new Kosova. They want the areas they live in to be annexed to Serbia. According to Kant's maxim, are they entitled to this?

I would propose a pragmatic moral principle: Every population that inhabits a defined territory and has a clear national character is entitled to independence. A state that wants to keep such a population must see to it that they feel comfortable, that they receive their full rights, enjoy equality and have an autonomy that satisfies their aspirations. In short: that they have no reason to desire separation.

That applies to the French in Canada, the Scots in Britain, the Kurds in Turkey and elsewhere, the various ethnic groups in Africa, the indigenous peoples in Latin America, the Tamils in Sri Lanka and many others. Each has a right to choose between full equality, autonomy and independence.

THIS LEADS us, of course, to the Palestinian issue.

In the competition for the sympathy of the world media, the Palestinians are unlucky. According to all the objective standards, they have a right to full independence, exactly like the Tibetans. They inhabit a defined territory, they are a specific nation, a clear border exists between them and Israel. One must really have a crooked mind to deny these facts.

But the Palestinians are suffering from several cruel strokes of fate: The people that oppress them claim for themselves the crown of ultimate victimhood. The whole world sympathizes with the Israelis because the Jews were the victims of the most horrific crime of the Western world. That creates a strange situation: the oppressor is more popular than the victim. Anyone who supports the Palestinians is automatically suspected of anti-Semitism and Holocaust denial.

Also, the great majority of the Palestinians are Muslims (nobody pays attention to the Palestinian Christians). Since Islam arouses fear and abhorrence in the West, the Palestinian struggle has automatically become a part of that shapeless, sinister threat, "international terrorism". And since the murders of Yasser Arafat and Sheik Ahmed Yassin, the Palestinians have no particularly impressive leader - neither in Fatah nor in Hamas.

The world media are shedding tears for the Tibetan people, whose land is taken from them by Chinese settlers. Who cares about the Palestinians, whose land is taken from them by our settlers?

In the world-wide tumult about Tibet, the Israeli spokespersons compare themselves - strange as it sounds - to the poor Tibetans, not to the evil Chinese. Many think this quite logical.

If Kant were dug up tomorrow and asked about the Palestinians, he would probably answer: "Give them what you think should be given to everybody, and don't wake me up again to ask silly questions."
http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/1207434781/

[sudopod]

110. TL;DR

Let me summarize:

"Other people did bad stuff before, so it's A-OK for China to rape Tibet."

[ckramer]

106. Did you folks watch Ann Curry interview Dalai Lama yesterday

He said he supports Olympics in China and don't wish protestors being violent.

[fascisthunter]

116. Gee... Thanks ckramer...

thanks for outing yourself.

:eyes:

[fascisthunter]

119. Everybody in my Family is Boycotting the Olympics and

boycotting as many products manufactured in China as possible.

[askmr]

122. Uhmm...british, a group of silly losers.

They are kind of silly. They should at least know that the location they mentioned
is OUTSIDE Tibet. Can't they just do some basic study and make something more "real" next time.
Totally disappointed.

Please find how American researchers explore the issue, for example:
http://www.michaelparenti.org/Tibet.html

[sudopod]

125. Welcome back from the dead!

Have another delicious tombstone!

[gear_head]

124. shame on San Francisco, for allowing

a symbol of Tibetan oppression
in their city