Russia bombs Tbilisi airport, says official

[UpInArms]

Source: Reuters

TBILISI (Reuters) - Loud explosions rocked Georgia's capital early on Sunday, and a senior official said Russia had bombed Tbilisi's international airport.

"Russian jet fighters have dropped three bombs on Tbilisi's airport," Shota Utiashvili, the head of the Georgian Interior Ministry's information department, told Reuters.

Reuters correspondents working in Tbilisi heard the three loud bangs shortly after 0530 (0130 GMT).

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/topNews/idUSL768040420080810

---

very short blurb - this is not going to be over quickly I fear

[Faygo Kid]

1. Bombing the main airport: This is out of control. Happening as we post.

Wow. Allow me to post from your link, and thanks for the "heads up:"

TBILISI (Reuters) - Loud explosions rocked Georgia's capital early on Sunday, and a senior official said Russia had bombed Tbilisi's international airport.

"Russian jet fighters have dropped three bombs on Tbilisi's airport," Shota Utiashvili, the head of the Georgian Interior Ministry's information department, told Reuters.

Reuters correspondents working in Tbilisi heard the three loud bangs shortly after 0530 (0130 GMT).

[UpInArms]

2. if you go to the Reuters page

you will find a line of articles:

Related News
Russian general wounded in Georgia's rebel region
8:43pm EDT
Russian jets targeted major oil pipeline: Georgia
10:38am EDT
Georgia president tells Games team to stay
8:43pm EDT
U.N. says Georgia conflict widening beyond S.Ossetia
8:43pm EDT
Russian bombs spread panic in Georgia
12:22pm EDT
Putin says Georgia seeking "bloody adventures"
1:03pm EDT
French EU presidency urges Russia to accept truce
8:43pm EDT
U.S. says Russia uses "disproportionate" force
5:40pm EDT
TIMELINE: Georgia and Russia's worsening relations
08 Aug 2008
TIMELINE: Conflict between Georgia and South Ossetia
08 Aug 2008
FACTBOX: Casualty tolls in Caucasus conflict
2:49pm EDT
FACTBOX: Scenarios for Georgia's South Ossetia crisis
7:52am EDT
FACTBOX: What is Georgia's rebel South Ossetia region?
08 Aug 2008
FACTBOX: International reaction to South Ossetia conflict
08 Aug 2008

[Ghost Dog]

13. No. Get it straight, please. Our Russian neighbours are very much in control,

... in this part of the world. Most always have been.

Hot damn. ¿What business is it of yours', anyway? Please stay out of it.

[Faygo Kid]

17. This is the world's business.

You're kidding, right?

[Ghost Dog]

24. Not kidding. Not looking for flame, either.

Thanks to your most important right to freedom of thought and expression, and to "Hollywood", we mostly reckon we have some kind of idea about what your beautiful country and people are like.

Could a majority of citizens of the USA, respectfully, say the same about most other cultures of this world?

[amandabeech]

35. This is about oil and gas and the BTC pipeline.

That means that the whole world has an interest in it.

I'm not advocating sending in the troops, but war and pipelines don't mix well with global economic stability.

You're going to be very, very disappointed if you expect that only Europe will have an interest here.

Or are you afraid that the Russians will cut off the gas this winter?

[ButterflyBlood]

46. The pipeline is basically a red herring

It's nowhere near South Ossetia and the Russians have no interest in it. Maybe it makes a nice target of war to them, but it's hardly the cause of anything like some of the tinfoilers here are screaming.

[Ghost Dog]

54. Afraid? no. I'm too old for that. Worried, yes.

It does get cold, there, up north. My girlfriend and I moved way down south here, off the coast of Western Sahara, where the sun shines all year round and the trade winds usually blow. Don't mean we don't deeply feel for those less fortunate than ourselves.

Russians certainly have the right to sell or not sell their energy to whomsoever they choose, I reckon. Think it's called realpolitic.

[originalpckelly]

3. Holy crap, this is no longer about disputed territory,

this is the whole damn country!

This could escalate into WWIII very quickly if something is not done to end it now. The world is a damn just waiting to bust open in full conflict.

[libnnc]

4. Well according to HEyHEy, everyone here is full of shit

and no one knows what the fuck is going on so who cares anyway...

:eyes:

[originalpckelly]

5. Reporting things as they are going on is different than...

pretending to know the intricate details of this particular conflict.

[libnnc]

6. I know. But he's cheesed off so...

?

[Faygo Kid]

7. Everybody drink!

Yeah, why should DU try to follow a breaking news story ABOUT A F'ING WAR BETWEEN RUSSIA AND GEORGIA?

Who cares?

Enjoy the rest of your peaceful evening.

:toast:

[libnnc]

8. I care. I'm pissed that smart assed posters like him

always try to downplay important events.

[Faygo Kid]

10. Oops. I misread your post. A thousand apologies.

Sometimes that "sarcasm" thing goes right over my head.

Please have a nice drink, and I will slink off DU now, to have my first one tonight, and contemplate humility.

(But thanks for the excuse!)

:beer:

[libnnc]

11. between the pecker-fest and the Olympics nonsense

I'm about ready to pull my hair out.

Downing a Bota Box as I type...

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[High Plains]

12. I think the Georgians get credit for starting this particular shitstorm.

Mr. Saakashvili bit off more than he can chew, and his country is going to pay for it.

Isn't there some old saw about poking the bear?

[Redstone]

15. Well, yeah, you happen to be absolutely right about that. But the Russians have much more to lose

on the worldwide PR stage than do the Georgians. Big Bully Country versus Scrappy Independent Former Republic, and all that.

And, since you seem to be conversant in these matters, can I ask you for a further opinion? Why the hell, in the first place, would the country of Georgia give a red rat's ass if South Ossetia remains part of Georgia or not?

(I suspect the answer has something to do with oil. But it still doesn't seem to be worth fighting a war over. As much as I detest Russians, if I were in charge of Georgia, I'd not want to engage in large-scale combat with them.)

Redstone

[tchunter]

40. russia and georgia care aboot south ossetia and abkhazia because...

one has one of the few tunnels running through the mountains connecting georgia and russia and the other has the highest arch damn in the world. (hydroelectric power = cheap unlimited energy)



i just wrote my thesis aboot these two little enclaves!

[Dead_Parrot]

14. As far as I am aware...

...The Russians have not deliberately leveled Tblisi. But by all accounts, the Georgians have levelled Tskhinvali.

"Fucking Russians" says less about the Russians than it does about your grasp of current events.

[Redstone]

16. Ask a citizen of Chechnya about the Russians. Or a citizen of Afghanistan.

Redstone

[Dead_Parrot]

18. Which bit of "Georgia bombed Tskhinvali" do you find hard to comprehend?

Or is not genocide if Gerogia does it?
We should all just sit back, watch the fucking Olympics and let Georgia do it's thing, should we?
After all, 1,500 South Ossetians dead and 30,000 refugees isn't that much. They're only fucking Ossetians, wipe the fuckers out, right?

Edit: According to Georgia, S. Ossetia is a part of Georgia. So what word would you use for a country firing rockets into one of it's own cities, inhabited mainly by an ethnic minority? "Remodeling"? Yes Chechnya is a good parallel - but we have different 'players' this time.

[Redstone]

20. Uh, I've BEEN in a war. And fought Russians, face-to-face. Maybe that colors my

opinion, even though it was 36 years ago. That's a long time past, so I probably shouldn't keep in mind the moment I blew the arrogant smirk off that blonde-haired, blue-eyed son of a bitch's face back then in An Loc just after he took my friend's head off with a tank round through the roadblock we'd set up.

So, I concede.

You win.

You'll have better dreams than I will tonight, and you're welcome to them.

I'll go no further with this discussion.

Redstone

[Dead_Parrot]

23. Maybe it has.

Russians aren't the only people capable of unpleasant things. I'm pretty sure the people of Fallujah have an opinion on Americans, but that doesn't necessarily mean all Americans are like that all the time, or that all non-Americans are good by default.

[UpInArms]

29. ...

:hug:

:cry:

[Redstone]

31. Thank you.

I'll talk no more of war this night. Now, if I could just think or remember no more of it...

Redstone

[Ghost Dog]

30. Better not touch this. But I must comment that YOU sound rather arrogant,

Sir.

[Redstone]

33. I said I'll not discuss it anymore, and I won't. You're welcome to your opinion, and

your opinion may indeed be correct, or not. As might mine be, no matter its source.

But in the end, whose opinion ends up being the "right" one matters not.

People are dying. Innocent people, old ladies, and most heartbreaking of all, children. Little kids who didn't do a goddamn thing to deserve to die. In Ossetia, in Iraq, in Kosovo, in Darfur, in everywhere we've forgotten about in our fixation with the latest celebrity scandal.

It's ALWAYS wrong. Allocate the blame as you wish, it's WRONG.

Fuck me, I'm going to bed now and carrying my memories with me.

Redstone

[Ghost Dog]

37. It is WRONG. Yes.

I just don't believe that pulling out more and more weapons (unless purely defensive, sure) helps much.

Sleep well. Wish I could. The Black Sea is not so very far away from my family here in W. Europe.

I just want to ask you folks, kindly, to leave it alone. Please don't pull that trigger. That would be a very big mistake. Leave it to European "diplomacy", ok?.

[TheLastMohican]

51. I reported your post

Just so next time you spew ethnic hate, it will be in another "forum".

[Dead_Parrot]

59. Incidentally, Redstone...

...I've belatedly realised what's been bugging me about your post: 36 years ago, you weren't fighting Russians, you were fighting Soviets. Which included Georgians, who incidentally have a higher percentage of blondes than Russia - Most Russians are brunettes with brown eyes - although not as high as the Baltic states.

In case you were wondering, Leonid Brezhnev was Ukrainian.

You might want to bear all this in mind next time you reorganize your prejudices.

[bitchkitty]

95. If you had been fighting China, would

you now hate all Chinese? If Vietnam, would you hate all Vietnamese?

I wish you well - I hope you find peace inside yourself. I am very sorry for what you had to endure.

War really sucks - the deaths may happen fast, but the aftermath lives on and on, doesn't it?

[The Croquist]

83. No one knows whats going on in Tskhinvali

but you can be sure that when we "find out" the story will be told by the Russians.

[NeoConsSuck]

19. It's almost as bad as Fallujah

but so far, the Russians haven't resorted to dropping phosphorous bombs.

Fucking who?

[Redstone]

22. Yes, indeed. But the fact that WE have been so bestial does not excuse anyone else who

does the same.

The whole subject makes me want to vomit. I know what war is.

God help us all.

Redstone

[Ghost Dog]

32. Peace, please. (Can hear you, Redstone: you sound like "special forces" to my ear).

... Folks ain't exactly at war on your left frontier, yet.

Didn't most of you folks just run away from the "Old World", preferring to attempt to set up a greater freedom, some time ago?

I repeat the question: Why should this be any business of yours'?

[Redstone]

34. No. I'm not taking that bait, OK?

Sorry to disappoint you.

Redstone

[Zhade]

26. That's a rather broad statement. "Russians"? How about "the Russian government"?

Surely you're not bigoted against everyone who happens to be born in Russia, right?

[Ghost Dog]

27. Apologies. "Fucking Yanks"

...don't seem to have learned much, on their side, either.

What, "genocide and mass murder" is supposed to be a US exclusive, now?

Um. ¿What happened to most of DU?

I'll listen. But I'm not going to flame. Prefer trying making peace. You folks ain't been much help, recently.

[ButterflyBlood]

47. I'm not sure what the logic here is.

The US's actions somehow get Russia off the hook? That's like arguing Hitler/Stalin wasn't a bad guy because the other guy was doing the same thing.

No genocide and mass murder shouldn't be US exclusive. NO ONE should do it, the less the better. Russia doing it and making it non-exclusive (and by the way it wouldn't be a US exclusive even if Russia wasn't doing this.) doesn't make things any remotely better. The logic is so awful it's making my head hurt.

[uppityperson]

49. By "you folks" do you mean the bush administration or usa people or DUers?

It is difficult to know whom you mean. I'm not going to discss more until you clarify as you seem to be accusing we duers individually of mr.bush's bs.

[Ghost Dog]

52. Yeah, I mean the wingers and trolls; the unelected regime, essentially,

of whom there appear to be rather more than usual, these days, in DU.

DU folks, generally, are clearly a fairly representative sample of the very best of the USA.

There seems to be, however, a noticeable, um, militaristic streak there. Maybe some are a little too willing to obey, unthinkingly, the patriotic call to arms?

But I don't want to get too rebellious, either. Hell, I'm just an uninvited guest here, after all. But at least I do speak up, some, rather than just lurking.



:hug: :banghead: :cry:

[uppityperson]

104. I think you do not understand when ,any of us say something should be done; not meaning militarily

Yes, there are "bomb them" types, including the head (blech) ruler of the USA, but many of us (esp on DU) view military power used simply to force compliance with another country's desires as totally wrong. They can be used in a proper manner, which unfortunately doesn't happen often enough.

I would like to see proof of that assertion "There seems to be, however, a noticeable, um, militaristic streak there. Maybe some are a little too willing to obey, unthinkingly, the patriotic call to arms?". Yes, there are a few (making your "some" true since "some" could mean any number), and there are disruptors, but my perception of any military support, or would it be what irks me about that (not disruptors or the few) is even here people feel they must "support the troops" moreso than I would like. I see that though as fear, and lack of communication rather than a noticeable militaristic streak.

Fear, or perhaps dislike at being scolded (combining my 2 factors, huh) by writing along the lines of the soldiers should not be, individually, in Iraq/Afghanistan/pick a place, not just "I hate the bigger military machine". Criticism of those partaking vs criticism of the bigger military machine.

Typping slowly on a strange keyboard slows down my thoughts and apologies if I am not as clear as I would like to be.

[autorank]

21. They're so direct.

It's similar to the way they handled things when Iranians seized their diplomats. Release them now
or get ready for some really unpleasant consequences.

Isn't Georgia one of those "orange revolution" countries?

[amandabeech]

38. That would be "rose" revolution.

"Orange" would be Ukraine, and I'm sure that they're not sleeping tonight.

Neither are the Poles, the Lithuanians, the Latvians and the Estonians.

They know what happens when the red tanks roll.

[autorank]

50. Rose, Orange, same thing in the end

"The Rose Revolution in Georgia unravelled in a haze of teargas last night as riot police broke up protests and the pro-Western President declared a state of emergency.

Mikhail Saakashvili accused Russia of attempting to destabilise Georgia, while special forces troops fired teargas and rubber bullets and used water cannon on demonstrators in running battles in the capital, Tbilisi.

The violence is the most serious challenge to Mr Saakashvili since he swept to power on a wave of popular support in the pro-democracy Rose Revolution in 2003. It also threatens American policy in the strategically important Caucasus region."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2826196.ece

"The Rose Revolution was not a simple uprising but was aided by the CIA and Ambassador Richard Miles (think Serbia). From early 2002 onwards the CIA had been operating in Georgia, supposedly to combat Al Qaeda. And yes, Georgia is an odd place to fight the war on terror against OBL. One of the main groups that took to the streets and stormed the Parliament house was Kmer (meaning "enough") was almost certainly CIA funded. Saakashvilli was never the democrat and wonderful liberal he was made out to be. His was a strategic role. He would further US interests in the Caucasus, especially with respect to Caspian sea oil in return for US and EU protection. However, Saakashvilli could never guarantee total support at home and thus slipped into heavily using patronage (what other may call corruption) and strongman tactics. He vamped up the nationalist rhetoric and classed with Russia over Southern Ossetia (population 70,000, about the same as Tunbridge Wells). He called Georgia’s participation in the USSR as the "Soviet Occupation" and put up posters around the Capital Tblisi stating that entry into the EU and the European Peoples Party specifically was his key foreign policy goal. The Prime Minister mysteriously died. All the time the EU was favourable towards Georgia’s entry into the EU and the US pushed heavily for Georgia to be brought into NATO. Saakashvilli has viewed and presented membership of NATO as not being part of the "western alliance" but in terms of nationalism. If Georgia is part of NATO it can play hard ball with Abkazia and South Ossetia, the two Russian backed breakaway regions (for a good economist article by Tim Judah click here), with the power of NATO behind it. That is why this small, often forgotten nation is of great strategic importance: oil and "great power politics"."
http://boards.msn.com/MSNBCboards/thread.aspx?threadid=746889

[daleo]

25. The BBC now says it was a military airport that was bombed

Russian warplanes bomb a military airfield close to the Georgian capital, Tbilisi, a Georgian security official says, as the conflict beyond the borders of South Ossetia deepens.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/

[Takoia]

53. Re: military airfield bombed

Actually, it is not a military airfield. Russia bombed TbilAviaMsheni located in Tbilisi (capital city0, which is a factory manufacturing small planes. It does have an airfield which is destroyed now.
At this moment Russia is attacking Zugdidi, another large city in Georgia. T

[Dead_Parrot]

63. Yes, Su-25s are technically small planes

...Earlier, Georgian officials said Russian jets had bombed a military airfield close to the Georgian capital, Tbilisi.
Three bombs had been dropped on the airfield, where there is a factory producing Sukhoi Su-25 fighter jets, they said...
http://www.b92.net/eng/news/world-article.php?yyyy=2008&mm=08&dd=10&nav_id=52589



Busy factory, is it?

[AlphaCentauri]

28. Georgia's attack on South Ossetia used the same Iraq war tactics

according to the description of the attack, South Ossetia was deprived of water, electricity by bombing those resources facilities. The response from the Russians of destroying Georgia's airport should be expected.

[amandabeech]

39. Are you reasoning from the position that South Ossetia was not a part of Georgia?

Just want to make sure.

[AlphaCentauri]

42. There are some facts laying around to make an opinion

a) South Ossetia declared Independence the same way Georgia did from Russia
b) Many South Ossetia residents are Russian citizens
c) There is something wrong with a government who lunch rockets to the people they consider their own
d) Georgia was preparing to lunch an attack last month http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/04/georgia.ossetia/index.html
e) This probably was the last change for the president of Georgia to get the US involve, after the presidential election many things could change.
f) The president of Georgia is a US lawyer, he may have lost touch with his people.

[Takoia]

57. some facts to change the opinion that ossetia is not part of Georgia

I would like to comment on AlphaCentauri's points:

"a) South Ossetia declared Independence the same way Georgia did from Russia"

No, South Ossetia was never an independent republic and could not declare independence from Georgia the same way as Georgia (country of 20+ centuries) did. South Ossetia was granted the status of autonomous republic by Stalin. FYI, ethnic Ossetians came there starting only from the 18th century, which, for the caucasus is not of a too long ago. in the 19th century assessment they were minority. Ossetia used to be called Samachablo and it was an integral part of Georgia.

"b) Many South Ossetia residents are Russian citizens"

That was the Russian step to make ossetia more of its own - couple years ago it granted Russian passports to everyone who wished so in Ossetia and Abkhazia.

"c) There is something wrong with a government who lunch rockets to the people they consider their own"

As much as you say, initial steps against Ossetian separatists caused minimal damage and minimal casualties. Missiles were not directed against citizens. Currently, there is no more Tskinvali as Russian military completely destroyed it while "protecting" it against Georgia. In addition, for a decade Georgian government has been tolerating regular attacks on Georgian villages from Ossetian separatists/Russian peacekeepers.

"d) Georgia was preparing to lunch an attack last month http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/04/georgia.osse..."

Yes, probably in retaliation of Ossetians closing the water channels to Georgian villages (and it is Summer!!! how much could be tolerated). Even know, so called president of Ossetia was probably well aware of planned "invasion" as he evacuated his family three days in advance. Or was it a provocation that Georgians got caught it after so many attempts?

"e) This probably was the last change for the president of Georgia to get the US involve, after the presidential election many things could change."

We are not dreamers, we know that no one will fight against Russia just to protect small Georgia. Russia will never let Georgia go - it always hated this small rebel country - it has free spirit, russians do not like this.

"f) The president of Georgia is a US lawyer, he may have lost touch with his people."

`At this moment president of Georgia is supported by whole Georgia, even by very hostile opposition parties.

[Dead_Parrot]

60. A question for you, then:

Do you think a people should be allowed to choose their own leaders and run their own state if they wish to, or it it better for them to be run externally if it is deemed appropriate by a greater power?

[Takoia]

62. an answer to the question

Of course, people should choose there own leader. However, the case of Ossetia and Abkhazia differs in this case in these terms: Majority of the Georgian ethnic population (for example, 300,000 people from Abkhazia, which constituted almost 70% of its population aside from Armenians, greeks, russians, abkhazians, etc.) has been thrown out of these regions during the war, which was supported and in fact led by Russians; If 70% of population is not in place, I do not trust and take the choice of the rest of the people, especially if it is Russia's puppet.

[Dead_Parrot]

65. Ahh. right

Odd, since the region had a good 2/3 Ossetian population before the troubles started, so how they kicked out the 70% Georgian population must have taken some interesting maths.

What about the Ethnic Ossetians who fled for North Ossetia, BTW? I take it you would also insist on them being repatriated before another referendum?

[Ghost Dog]

68. Think Stalin was largely responsible for that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Stalin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Army_invasion_of_Georgia

Bolshevik v. Menshevik?

[Takoia]

70. re: ahh.right

I was talking about Abkhazians. And yes, Ossetians should be also repatriated. No one deserves to be kicked out of their own home. And by the way, last "presidential" elections in Ossetia split votes between Russian supported and Georgian supported candidates.

[Dead_Parrot]

102. So, is there any reasons why S Ossetia can't decide thier own future?

Perhaps you can help me out here: Who was the Georgian supported candidate, and what % did they poll?

[Dead_Parrot]

67. While you're at it...

...since there's clearly nothing wrong with self-determination in principle, maybe you can explain why the role of "State Minister for Conflict Issues" has been replaced by "State Minister for Reintegration" in the Georgian government?

[AlphaCentauri]

103. Your opinion is welcome

I would like to comment on AlphaCentauri's points:

"a) South Ossetia declared Independence the same way Georgia did from Russia"

No, South Ossetia was never an independent republic and could not declare independence from Georgia the same way as Georgia (country of 20+ centuries) did. South Ossetia was granted the status of autonomous republic by Stalin. FYI, ethnic Ossetians came there starting only from the 18th century, which, for the caucasus is not of a too long ago. in the 19th century assessment they were minority. Ossetia used to be called Samachablo and it was an integral part of Georgia.

"b) Many South Ossetia residents are Russian citizens"

That was the Russian step to make ossetia more of its own - couple years ago it granted Russian passports to everyone who wished so in Ossetia and Abkhazia.

"c) There is something wrong with a government who lunch rockets to the people they consider their own"

As much as you say, initial steps against Ossetian separatists caused minimal damage and minimal casualties. Missiles were not directed against citizens. Currently, there is no more Tskinvali as Russian military completely destroyed it while "protecting" it against Georgia. In addition, for a decade Georgian government has been tolerating regular attacks on Georgian villages from Ossetian separatists/Russian peacekeepers.

"d) Georgia was preparing to lunch an attack last month http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/07/04/georgia.osse ..."

Yes, probably in retaliation of Ossetians closing the water channels to Georgian villages (and it is Summer!!! how much could be tolerated). Even know, so called president of Ossetia was probably well aware of planned "invasion" as he evacuated his family three days in advance. Or was it a provocation that Georgians got caught it after so many attempts?

"e) This probably was the last change for the president of Georgia to get the US involve, after the presidential election many things could change."

We are not dreamers, we know that no one will fight against Russia just to protect small Georgia. Russia will never let Georgia go - it always hated this small rebel country - it has free spirit, russians do not like this.

"f) The president of Georgia is a US lawyer, he may have lost touch with his people."

`At this moment president of Georgia is supported by whole Georgia, even by very hostile opposition parties.

a) South Ossetia can be independent if their citizens wish, we can't deny them the right we granted to Kosovo, Israel, Liberia, Texas, Montenegro.... in the XXI century we can't expect to build nations based on religion or corporate wishes but we are doing it.

b) The passport may have been a russian security effort to avoid terrorist mix with South Ossetia people.

c) The preliminary reports said that there were 2000 South Ossetian deaths, of course there were no cameras available cos nobody expected the attack.

e) In essence Georgia is not showing a free spirit when they try to keep those regions under their rule.

f) At the beginning of any war nobody expect to see the people of a country like Georgia to drop support for their president, actually this war could make him popular if he exploit the Georgian patriotism.

[Purveyor]

36. Russia has drawn and now demonstrated a 'line in the sand' on NATO expansion near its territory.

I don't see how anyone should be surprised by this except for the fact that the neocon influenced Georgia was stupid enough to engage them.

A hard punch in the 'new neocon world order' face is exactly what Russia is doing and I don't necessarily think that is a 'bad thing' geopolitically.

I do regret that so many innocents are being killed in this endeavor but I hardly doubt that it will equal the 100's of thousand civilians the US and its minions have slaughtered in Iraq.

[amandabeech]

41. I think that this conflagration also has a LOT to do with oil,

and Russia's ability to control totally oil and gas coming from its former Caspian and Central Asian Soviet Republics.

Putin is going to jerk the chain on almost all of Europe just like he has done with Ukraine. He already has the Germans in his corner, tied up with a natural gas pipeline deal.

Ukraine, Poland and the Balts are probably in a complete panic about now.

I don't like the neocons, either, but I would rather "punch them in the face" in some other way.

[AlphaCentauri]

43. from a neutral point of view

if we gain control of the oil in that region, wouldn't we doing the same to the Europeans?

[amandabeech]

44. I don't think that Obama would be cutting off the natural gas to Ukrainian children in winter.

Do you? I don't think so. I also don't think that most U.S. presidents would do something like that to their friends and allies. They do it to their enemies and those that they don't care about, like Iraqis. Russia seems to see most of Europe as an enemy these days, except the Germans, which is a little scarey.

Also, the pipeline is run by a consortium of companies, many based in Europe. You know how corporations act toward that.

[AlphaCentauri]

45. I don't think Obama would do something of that magnitude

he does not control private corporations nor oil companies but we have to consider if Ukrainian children can afford the price of oil corporations would dictate, high prices are another way to deprive people from basic elements.

[amandabeech]

48. Russian gas doesn't come cheap. They know the market price.

One of the squabbles between Ukraine and Russia is the price of oil and gas vs. the pipeline transit fees that Ukraine charges Russia.

Putin may be many things, but he is no dummy. He needs oil revenues to keep his country going and to keep himself and his cronies in power.

[WriteDown]

90. You nailed the reason (upcoming admission into NATO)....

but your support for Putin who is trying to become Stalin II is troubling.

[still_one]

55. Georgia was stupid to attack the seperatist areas. Unfortunately,

now the people of Georgia will pay a heavy price for that stupidity

There is no way NATO or the U.S. will be directly involved

[SpikeTss]

56. More than 2000 people slaughtered by Georgian missles

Gosh, who would have thought that crimes like these would still be possible today?

http://russiatoday.com/news/news/28757

Shelled city is living hell

Thousands of South Ossetians are trapped in the ruins of a city almost destroyed by Georgian missiles. The remaining residents of Tskhinvali are huddled in cellars beneath bombed-out buildings. They are struggling to survive - without water, food or electricity.

The death toll in Georgia’s breakaway republic has reached at least 2,000, according to Russian and South Ossetian sources. Georgian officials deny the figure is that high.

Twelve Russian peacekeepers have also been killed in the fighting with up to 150 others wounded.

...

The chief of Russia's ground forces says Georgian shelling has destroyed all the hospitals in the South Ossetian captial, Tskhinvali.

It's also reported that more than ten border villages have been burnt to the ground.

...

More than 30,000 refugees have arrived in Russia's southern regions as people try to flee the conflict zone. Meanwhile, thousands of people still remain in the demolished city of Tskhinvali. Amid continuing shelling, people are sheltering in bunkers, but are said to be running out of food, and there is no water or electricity.

Russia's Emergency's Ministry has delivered the first consignment of medication to the South Ossetian capital. Humanitarian aid and power generators are also expected to be delivered soon.

Russian military officials say the 76th Airborne Brigade of the Russian Army has arrived in the conflict region. One section of the brigade has already flown to the South Ossetian capital, Tskhinvali. Other troops will move to the region by ground transport, military sources said.

[Takoia]

58. people slaughtered by Georgian missiles ???? come on... people are dying from russian shells ...

I am sorry to disappoint you but you should pay attention to the fact that these are comments all made by Russian official. You can decide to trust them or not.

After the first attack there were very few casualties. As Russians intervened, they literally made the city disappear into ruins. I don't know how many people died as a result of their bombardments in Ossetia. But Russian missiles have been bombing other parts of Georgia - Poti port, Senaki, Gori, Zugdidi, even capital Tbilisi. These cities are far from conflict zone what in the hell are Russians doing there? How can they protect Ossetians by killing people throughout Georgia?
Please, check this site for their actions, watch the video:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7550965.stm

And now they are bringing even navy.

Georgia is being annexed and not for the first time.

[SpikeTss]

61. Yes, because it was the Georgian war criminal Saakashvili who ordered the attacks on the city

There is something seriously wrong with the president of a country who orders to bomb his own citizens. This is by definition a war crime, because by firing rockets on a civilian city Saakashvili not only risked killing innocent civilians, but intentionally did so. Petty dictators like Saakashvili seem to like to do these things, it's probably a personality defect that makes people like him do atrocities like these. I don't know ...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4493620.ece

From The Sunday Times

‘Bodies are lying everywhere. It’s hell’

Less than eight hours after Saakashvili’s pledge, the Georgian president had ordered his troops to retake South Ossetia by force.

“Suddenly there was a massive explosion which hit a house down the road from us,” said Kalchakeyev, who managed to flee across the border to Russia.

“Our windows shattered and I jumped for cover. I grabbed my son and wife and ran down to the basement, where I was joined by dozens of other civilians. The bombing only got worse. It was relentless and went on for hours. I never thought it would come to this – Georgians bombing us – not in my wildest imagination.”

...

Yesterday it emerged that Tskhinvali, a quiet, small town, had been all but destroyed by the initial Georgian attack on Friday.

As a barrage of artillery fell on its outskirts, Georgian tanks moved into the centre, where they were met with fierce resistance from South Ossetian separatist rebels.

“Georgian snipers are taking down anything that moves, even outside the town’s hospital, which is making it hard to deliver the wounded. They are not sparing anyone,” claimed a South Ossetian government spokesman.

...

“The town is destroyed. There are many casualties, many wounded,” said Zaid Tsarnayev, a resident. “I was in the hospital on Friday where I saw many civilian wounded. The hospital was later destroyed by a Georgian jet.”

Russia’s response to the crisis was swift. Tank columns from the 58th army rolled across the border into South Ossetia. Backed by Russian fighter jets that pounded the Georgian army’s position, they quickly advanced towards Tskhinvali.

[Takoia]

64. War Criminal Saakashvili? What about war criminal Putin?

Saakashvili acted in the interest of its own country. News never reported how Georgian villages were attacked in "peaceful" time. Saakashvili's action was in response to the ongoing attacks by Ossetian separatists. Saakashvili did not target civilians and did not destroy Tskinvali, Putin did. Tskinvali was there the day before yesterday, but not today after Russia's bombings.

What would you say about Russia's bombings of Georgian cities? This is not a crime? How dares Putin? I truly believe it is personal against Georgia. More than 90 civilians are killed as a result of bombings throughout Georgia - Tbilisi, Poti, Senaki, Gori, Marneuli...

And don't talk about Georgia's war crimes when you have Putin acting in Beslan and blowing school full of kids, theater full of people in Moscow, etc.etc...

[Dead_Parrot]

66. Well, it's not like Saakashvili hasn't got form in this area

http://www.humanrights.ge/index.php?a=article&id=935&lang=en

"I... have advised my colleague, Justice Minister Zurab Adeishvili, I want criminals both inside and outside prisons to listen to this very carefully, to use force when dealing with any attempt to stage prison riots, and to open fire, shoot to kill and destroy any criminal who attempts to cause turmoil. We will not spare bullets against these people."

Hardly the words of the world's greatest pacifist, are they?

[Takoia]

71. Saakashvili - this is not my concenr - I am concerned that Russian jets keep bombing Georgia

Once again, I am not the rigorous supporter of Saakashvili, but I have to note that this specific phrase was used in a specific context. I am sorry but I don't think any civilized country allows prison riots overtake prison management :)

And I am not here to defend Saakashvili. Somehow everyone is ignoring the fact that Russian jets are bombing number of Georgian cities. What gives Russia the right to attack Tbilisi? or Gori? or Zugdidi? Unless this is not a clear desire to annex it?

[Dead_Parrot]

101. You actually think execution without a trial deserves a smiley?

That's pretty fucking sick.

And here you said:
At this moment president of Georgia is supported by whole Georgia, even by very hostile opposition parties.

So what you're saying is, the whole of Georgia supports the murder of civilians?

If I actually believed that, I'd be happy to watch the bombs fall until the Russians ran out of them. Fortunately, I don't believe that for one second. What I do believe, is that you are full of shit, and you've come to DU for the sole purpose of posting Saakashvili's propaganda.

[fedsron2us]

69. Or War criminals Bush and Blair for that matter

The world is full of f*****g 'war criminals' keen to shed innocent blood to prop up their power and egos. Politicians start wars and then use 'patriotism to con the rest of the population to back them. Hermann Goering got that right and the Nazis were subject matter experts when it comes to war crimes..

[frankieT]

84. INCREDIBLE

Saakashvili bombed the shit out of Tskinvali during the night of 7 to 8 august ! We saw the images of georgian GRAD rockets showering Tskinvali all night long. There was no valuable military target! it was an obvious war crime. South Ossetians are overwhelmingly against georgian rule, so Saakashvili choosed the path of ethinc cleansing !! It almost worked : thousands of ossetians fled on friday to Russia, hours before russian tanks approached Tskinvali !! And you know it ! You're totally deluded, it's utterly disgusting to read you.

[chatnoir]

81. Thank you

"I am sorry to disappoint you but you should pay attention to the fact that these are comments all made by Russian official." - Exactly.

Can anyone give any independent sources? Citing Russian officials or Russia Today (mouthpiece of the Kremlin analogous to perhaps what Fox News is in the US, if not worse) is not much more than citing propaganda.

"After the first attack there were very few casualties. As Russians intervened, they literally made the city disappear into ruins."

Sadly most of the information coming out is controlled by Russia and some are only hearing this. Also, the fact that Ossetian artillery had been firing indiscriminately on neighboring Georgian villages and policemen is omitted and that the Ossetian response to the ceasefire was to shell yet again another Georgian village AFTER the ceasefire was declared seems to never be mentioned in these reports.

Why the aerial bombardments of civilian targets not inside S Ossetia - the apartment buildings in Gori, the port city of Poti, etc - if Russia is "only defending Russian citizens"? The same they fast-tracked into Russian citizenship for their own ulterior motives, btw.

This isn't about minority rights or defending their citizens or whatever else they might say. They have been itching to punish Georgia for a very long time and were looking for any pretext.

[frankieT]

85. Stop talking about RUSSIA

And tell me what you think of the LARGE SCALE and ALL OUT GEORGIAN ATTACK against the CITY of Tskhinvali ??? Stop turning around the painful question. Sure Russia is the imperialist bear ... blabla... But they have done the right thing and prevented a large scale ethnic cleansing. They targeted mainly military positions.

[chatnoir]

89. "Targeted mainly"??

Yeah, they just targeted residential apartment buildings and villages the rest of the time.
















They bomb apartment buildings inside Georgia and somehow this will prevent the ethnic cleansing they are claiming? Please. This from the same who completely razed Grozny in their war to re-take Chechnya. Do you have any sources independent of Russian ones? Tskhinvali was decimated when the Russians went in and engaged.

[frankieT]

92. That's the same building and same 3 wounded people we saw

EVERYWHERE FOR 3 DAYS ! Putting 10 photos from different angles doesn't make it more serious than it is already.
Beside, at the time of the bombing western journalists saw clearly that the target was a military base nearby in Gori but somehow they rushed only to watch the results of the bombs that went astray in this building. I don't know maybe it's security measures by Georgia but we never saw the military base hit, nor the military airport, nor the aerospatial factory hit... We saw also scores of infantrymen in Gori, this is the outpost (and you know it!) from where all the georgian military regroup before entering South Ossetia. VALID MILITARY TARGET to me. At least compared to the senseless bombing of Tskhinvali... I hope this madness will end as soon as possible, but please BE HONEST five seconds you have to recognise that russian reaction is by no means as destructive to civilians as the georgian treacherous attack of civilians in South Ossetia.

SOUTH OSSETIA is the first and heaviest victim here. Maybe Georgia is David to russian GOliath but South Ossetia is definitely David to Georgian Goliath.

[chatnoir]

97. They are now moving into Gori. Putin and Russian officials will say/use anything as a pretext.

If you want to believe them, go right ahead.

[frankieT]

98. i seriously doubt that Russia want or even can do something to Georgia

These last 3 days we were overwhelmed with reports of the same minor incidents showed and rehashed in every manner possible. We heard also A LOT the official georgian propaganda line : this is an invasion of Georgia to destroy the country. Maybe Georgia destroying South Ossetia and cleaning the mountains of those pesky rebellious Ossetians was a manageable goal (if you accept bombing and torching everything civilian in SO - which Georgia US & NATO seem comfortable with) but invading Georgia is the stupidest thing to do. It's impossible, and russians know it. They probably want to teach some lesson to the georgian military and Saakachvili ambitions; we will see in the next few days.

[chatnoir]

99. I'm sure they would love to and who would stop them if they try?

NATO? The US? Somehow it seems like nothing will be done and ppl will continue to live in terror.

Terrified civilians have fled in their thousands, convinced that Russia will not stop at the border but sweep into Georgia. Some fear that the Kremlin is intent on establishing a buffer zone to guard South Ossetia against future incursions.

Gori, normally a bustling city of 50,000 people, is largely deserted after Russian airstrikes at the weekend. Scores of people were abandoning their homes and loading possessions into vehicles or carrying what they could on foot. “There is a lot of panic. Many people have left and I am thinking of joining them. My bags are already packed,” Georgi, a 56-year-old resident of Tirdznisi, said. “We are afraid that the Russians will come here and kill us. People would not go if we had a strong army but they don’t believe in our army any more.”

Iago Jokhadze abandoned his village of Ergneti, close to Tskhinvali, after it was bombed by Russian jets yesterday. Fighting back tears, he said: “I have left everything, I don’t even have another shirt. If the Russians stay, then I can never return. We’re afraid of what the Russians can do.”

Miriyan Gogolashvili, of Tkviav, said: “The Russians will be here tomorrow. They want to show us and the world how powerful they are. Tomorrow it will be Ukraine and nobody in the West is doing anything to stop them. Why were our soldiers in Kosovo and Iraq if we don’t get any help from the West now?” he asked.

In Tbilisi, the Georgian capital, refugees from the fighting told how Russian helicopters bombed homes in Tshkinvali and neighbouring villages. Some spent days in basements before emerging to discover that their communities had been obliterated. Mzia Sabashvili, who hid for three days, said: “I know that lots of my neighbours are dead. I have no idea who is left.”

The Russians paid little heed to those in their way. A vehicle carrying observers from the Organisation for Security and Cooperation in Europe was shot at by a sniper near Tskhinvali. The bullet cracked the toughened glass of the passenger window, where a British officer had been sitting.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4500362.ece

and

"The Russian army attacked the capital this morning. We were woken up at 5 am by the aerial bombings that rocked Tbilisi. Contrary to most reports, they not only bombed the train station, but also struck civilian plants located in close proximity to residential complexes and a gas station in the city. They also bombarded the area near the airport."

According to Bedvanov, Russia has also disconnected the Georgian people from most of their information sources. "The Russian have blocked all of the Georgian websites; they are trying to spread fear," he said.

According to him, the residents of Georgia are receiving false reports from the Russian media, adding that one report showed Russian President Dmitry Medvedev saying the Russians want to destroy all of Georgia, and not just fight for South Ossetia.

Bedvanov said he feared for the Jews living in the Georgian city of Gori. "There is a Jewish community there and a synagogue; the Russians bombarded the city for three whole days," he said.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3580573,00.html

[ChazII]

72. Think of the size

of the carbon footprint those bombs will leave. :evilfrown: I am in a bitch mode today. The department of information or misinformation?? Or perhaps I am too cynical after 8 years of *.

[maddezmom]

73. and a second time: Russia bombs Tbilisi military airport - official

Russia bombs Tbilisi military airport - official 10 Aug 2008 15:26:08 GMT
Source: Reuters
TBILISI, Aug 10 (Reuters) - Russia bombed a military airport and aeroplane construction plant on the outskirts of the Georgian capital Tbilisi on Sunday evening, the Georgian interior ministry said.

The strike came hours after Georgia said it had pulled out of Tskhinvali, capital of breakaway South Ossetia, where Georgian and Russian forces have been engaged in heavy fighting for the past three days.

It was the second time on Sunday that the airport was targeted.

more:http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LA549260.htm

[Takoia]

74. vow - is this a peace loving Russia? I am sooo impressed

Yes, it did bomb Tbilisi again... and not only Tbilisi...

[thewiseguy]

75. Georgia started this conflict

They shelled the hell out of the capital of the breakaway region causing many civilian casualties.

People have brought that to your attention upthread but you seem to be ignoring that very fact. :eyes:

[Takoia]

76. Be Wise

MR. Wise Guy,
Georgia had minimal - 25 casualties as a result of its invasion. Russian "peacekeepers" have been killing and beating Georgians in Georgian villages from time to time causing much more casualties throughout years. Two days ago Georgia did not shell the hell out of Tskinvali, it was a very short attack. But there is no more Tskinvali now - it cannot be done by Georgians if you just consider the timeframe - it was Russian jets.
Somehow I get the feeling that you are ignoring this fact.
And, please, don't give the shit that Russia is trying to protect its citizens - this is not protection of people, its protection of its own interests. It does not even stand back to kill its own citizens when it comes to punishing its enemies. Like they did in Beslan - blew up a school to kill terrorists and eventually killed more than 300 children.
But going back to the fact that Georgia destroyed Tskinvali - please, be wise and just think how 7 Georgian jets that Georgia possesses could do such a damage. WHile Georgia already hit down 11 Russian jets - can you imagine how many of them are being used by Russia?

[thewiseguy]

77. It was a very short attack? Please knock it off

[Takoia]

79. yes - very short compared to Russia's actions afterwards towards whole Georgia and Ossetia itself

Very short compared to what Russia did not only is other parts of Georgia but in Ossetia itself

[chatnoir]

82. Of course Russian officials or media will always claim the opposite

And if anyone reads any Russian forums, you will see many people positively gleeful over what Russia is doing right now to Georgia. Reading them last night I became sick to my stomach.

[frankieT]

86. it's a military airport OUTSIDE TBILISSI

THIS is the usual misleading title we see in propaganda.

[Takoia]

87. It is inside Tbilisi - that's why factory is named TBILaviamsheni

Does it make it more clear?

[maddezmom]

88. here is an updated link: Tbilisi civilian airport hit in Russian air strike

Tbilisi civilian airport hit in Russian air strike 10 Aug 2008 17:15:51 GMT
Source: Reuters
(Recasts with strike near civilian airport)

By Margarita Antidze

TBILISI, Aug 10 (Reuters) - A bomb dropped by a Russian plane exploded near Tbilisi's main civilian airport on Sunday before the scheduled arrival of French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner to mediate an end to Georgia's conflict with Russia.

A Reuters cameraman saw smoke rising from near the runway at Tbilisi international airport. An Interior Ministry spokesman said the air strike appeared to have been aimed at the nearby military airport and an aviation construction plant.

"It turns out they hit both military and civilian airports," ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili told Reuters.

Kouchner was due to arrive later to meet Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili. He is expected to fly to Moscow on Monday.

more: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LA695505.htm

[frankieT]

93. Sorry but I read near "Tbilisi's main civilian airport"

WHAT WAS THE SUPPOSED TARGET ? DAMAGES ? CASUALTIES ?

I guess it is some kind of radar installation used for military purpose. But why bother, all the headlines in the whitewashing propaganda machine sound like Tbilissi inner city is bombed.

[WriteDown]

91. As a Russian friend said to me last Christmas while....

I was in that region. The Russian people do not care if they lose some freedoms. They just want a STRONG leader. And he was dead serious.

[frankieT]

94. thank you for sharing that :)

[gaemtheory]

78. Russia bombs Tbilisi airport, says official

1) the problem of South-Ossetia raised even before Russia appeared as independent state, back in late 1980s;

2) if Russia would seriously, big way help South-Ossetia, then it long time would have military air planes, for example. Not so much help with that;

3) and, Russia could agree to include South-Ossetia as its territory starting from 1992 any day;

4) boycotts and et cetera on Georgia were not out of the blue but each time reaction to Georgia's actions.

5) initially Russia did not want anything from Saakashvili, aside of it keeping peace agreement as accorded before (contrary to goals that Saakashvili announced when coming to power, which needed peacekeepers being taken away and/or discredited). Lately, with Georgia aspiring to become NATO member, Russia started to want this would not happen for obvious reasons. However, this has nothing to do with current war since it was not Russian foreign minister who gave consultations to Mr.Saakashvili days before he ordered troops move to South-Ossetia, it was Ms.Rice. So how exactly we should put Russia in this concrete mess?

With this, Russia trying to stop the violence, where exactly can we blame the country, indeed? What should Russia do else in the story with Georgia, concretely?


Quote:
"Russia has consistently pursued imperial aims in its near abroad"

With that rhetoric everything that was "reported" about Russia was brainwashing during latest years. Of course, every country wants to be as successful as possible.

However, at no case during recent years Russia done anything "imperialistic". I tracked all those suspicious cases all and even dissected number of them here in General Discussion, showing articles, for example, describing situation with gas supply to Ukraine. Whole articles consisted of direct lies and/or untold truths.

At the same time, as I said above, no side at war can come out of it "in white", and I do not trust Russian media, as well as any else. And, of course, I said here many times earlier that there is wide area of critique of Kremlin, but in areas that are not interesting for use in international politics so western media do not write about it. Instead, they write about things are outright brainwashing. Either if we take this case with war in Georgia, or other "imperialistic" moves.

For starters, during last fifteen years Russia never broke a UNO resolution/international law/signed contract of supply, no matter how good it could seem to do so. I will not disclose details since there are so many cases that this may concern to. So ask details for anything, if you want.

But keeping Russia as "eternal evil" has many advantages in policy, so there almost no thing that western people could read about the country went without turning upside-down.

Thankfully, no country aside of western world sees Russia as "evil" since people are not get brainwashed there for years. And, on the contrary, most American people are still sure that Mr.Clinton's administration did nothing illegitimate internationally, while it broke as many international laws as Mr.Bush's one. People just do not know.

The same as most people in Russia do not know about internal policy things that are crimes of Kremlin regime. But those crimes relate to internal doings/undoings, not international "imperialistic" things.

[Haole Girl]

80. I hate it when they do that

:-(

[frankieT]

96. as journalists arrive to Tskhinvali ...

http://www.russiatoday.ru/news/news/28788/video

[maddezmom]

100. Georgia says Russian planes bomb near Tbilisi 11 Aug 2008 01:46:11 GMT

Georgia says Russian planes bomb near Tbilisi 11 Aug 2008 01:46:11 GMT
Source: Reuters
(Adds background)

TBILISI, Aug 11 (Reuters) - Russian warplanes bombed a military base and radar installation near Tbilisi early Monday, Georgia's Interior Ministry said.

"There were two bombings. One at the Kojori military base and another on Mt. Makhata. As far as I know there are no casualties," Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili told Reuters.

The explosions, heard in Tbilisi's city centre, came just hours after French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner arrived for talks with President Mikheil Saakashvili aimed at trying to end the four-day-old war over the breakaway region of South Ossetia.

Kouchner was scheduled to depart Tbilisi for Moscow immediately after his talks with Saakashvili. It was unclear if he left before the bombing.
more:http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LB564480.htm

[Takoia]

105. There is first time for everything - even hearing bombs falling near you

I am living in Tbilisi. The bombings came at 4:30 local time and we were awaken by the noise of the planes. It was already clear what would happen, one just did not know where it would happen. The noise was loud (two bombs) and there was light. I am sure you can all agree that it would not be a nice feeling especially with your 7 months daughter waking up and crying.