Ukraine says it may bar Russian navy

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Associated Press

Aug 10, 5:46 AM EDT


Ukraine says it may bar Russian navy

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) -- Ukraine has warned Russia it could bar Russian navy ships from returning to their base in the Crimea because of their deployment to Georgia's coast.

Ukraine's Foreign Ministry says in a statement posted on its Web site Sunday that the deployment could draw Ukraine into the conflict.

If so, that would give Ukraine the right to bar the ship from coming back to their base.



Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/UKRAINE_RUSSIA_GEORGIA?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2008-08-10-05-46-26

[Selatius]

1. This is why NATO would be wise to keep out countries like the Ukraine and Georgia.

Europe does not need another continent-wide war. They have already fought two world wars in the past 100 years. They do not want to make it a third.

[amandabeech]

24. The problem is, even without NATO, the U.S. has been buddy-buddy and very encouraging to Georgia.

If we don't help them now, our future promises of friendship and support, as well as our current and past promises, won't carry much weight.

We're in a sticky situation here, and I don't know how we come out of this with whatever shreds of our global good remain after Iraq.

I do agree with you that neither the U.S. individually or NATO as a whole should have encouraged Ukraine or Georgia. Or instigated their fruit and flower revolutions.

[daleo]

47. Promises of great powers are always gratuitous promises

Smaller countries have to remember this simple fact of international relations.

[Baclava]

30. So you'd let Russia just gather up any country it wants?

Didn't WWII start because Hitler tried that?

[daleo]

48. And WWI started because small powers dragged big powers in

The situation reminds me of WWI. In that case a dispute between Serbia and Austro-Hungary dragged Germany, Russia, France, the British Empire and eventually the U.S. into a protracted bloodbath.

Let's be careful about historical parallels with Hitler. They can overshadow more relevant historical lessons.

[Baclava]

65. Does the name "Hitler" scare you? .........hitler hitler hitler

He was just a speed junkie rabbel-rouser that saw weakness and exploited it.

The world is never safe from power hungry leaders. It's what history is all about.

[daleo]

71. That oversimplifies history

I am not a believer in the great man theory of history, although particular personalities do matter. I don't try to turn every historical event into the equivalent of Hitler, I think that's a mistake.

My dad fought Hitler's army and my mom lived through the blitz, so I am pretty familiar with the fellow's name.

[Selatius]

59. So you'd repeat World War One again by letting a problem country join a big alliance?

Didn't World War One start because some country decided to shoot first thinking it'd be a quick victory rather than settle it at the bargaining table? It was because of that mistake that the Weimar Republic became Nazi Germany.

[Baclava]

64. Good point. But Russia is alone in this....they got the swelled head now.

Mother Russia may just want to gather up her satellite kids again, but they're all grown up now and have pointy sticks of their own.

No good can come from violence in this region, and when the Russian tanks come rolling into town it's going to set off a firestorm somewheres, you can bet on that.

[rustydad]

69. This Board seems like it gets info from CNN

I watched CNN and Fox a bit yesterday. They were non stop except for damming the poor Edwards family, in condemning Russia for *invading* Georgia. Folks it aint that simple and never is in the Balkans. Here is the true timeline. The Soviet Union dissolved in the late 80s. In Georgia, now independent, a civil war broke out between break away provinces of South Osettia and Abkashia, and Georgia. A stalemate was the result with both S. Osettia and Abkashia being granted almost complete autonomy. Osettia, north and south, are a common people with a common language and culture. That they were divided is one of the cruel lessons of history, often repeated all over the world. And usually the result of empire building. For many years a general peace has been in place with both Russian and Georgian peacekeepers in S. Osettia. But late last week Georgia attacked S. Osettia and drove within firing distance of the Capital. They then claimed a cease fire in respect of the opening of the Olympic games. Yet hours later in the middle of the night they unleashed a massive wave of rocket and artillery fire into the capital and surrounding villages. Thousands died including Russian peace keepers. It was by all definition genocide. For Russia not to respond would have been unthinkable. This is not about Russian expansion. It is about stopping a genocidal atrocity.

[chatnoir]

70. Think you meant the Caucasus but actually, we get 80-90% of our news from Europe

Don't even bother with what constitutes American "news" anymore.

Where do you get yours?

[rustydad]

87. OK

Caucasus and Balkans run together in my limited understanding of that region. I get 99% of my news from the internet and mostly from non US sources. One percent from Countdown, an American cable TV semi news show. Americans are being force fed that this is all about freedom and democracy. In truth it's about genocide. And oil. And Israel.

[lark]

85. Just like they let us "gather up"

Iraq. Does the fact that both are heavily involved in oil have anything to do w/this? Nah, course not.

[AlphaCentauri]

91. Just ask the russians to press the red button to start the fireworks

Hitler didn't have any nuclear weapon

[ulysses]

2. the likelihood of this ending well seems remote.

[amandabeech]

25. This Ukraine business just spreads it further.

I am reminded of a scene in "The Hunt for Red October."

It takes place in the admiral's quarters on an aircraft carrier. Both the U.S. and Soviet navies are actively looking for Red October.

The admiral (played by none other than Fred Thompson) says to another senior officer something like, "with all these ships sailing around out here things could get completely out of hand."

I didn't care much for Thompson as a Presidential candidate, but I thought that he did a good job as the admiral!

[MnFats]

82. is this it?

it's between this one and one other. This one is distressingly appropriate, however.


"This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it."

[MnFats]

83. or this?

the Richrd Jordan character utters this line....

It would be well for your government to consider that having your ships and ours, your aircraft and ours, in such proximity... is inherently DANGEROUS. Wars have begun that way, Mr. Ambassador.

[amandabeech]

89. Too many from which to choose!!!!

Unfortunately, all are appropriate, especially if Russia installs its own guy in Tblisi.

Won't go down well, I don't think.

[dipsydoodle]

3. .......integrate into the West and join NATO

Ingratiate themselves more like it. Presumably the Ukraine doesn't need Russian gas anymore :sarcasm:

Here's a map of the area.

[jody]

4. Precisely, he who has the gas makes the rules and that's Russia. n/t

[amandabeech]

90. Ukraine has already has its natural gas chain jerked.

The question is whether Ukraine thinks that it is sufficiently important to risk going without the gas this winter.

Of course, we might be able to arrange some help for them, if we think that it is sufficiently important.

[ckramer]

5. Gorbachev is such freaking fool to give up Ukraine

Putin should invade Poland and Ukraine and take them back.

[originalpckelly]

6. ?

I do hope you're not being serious.

[chatnoir]

10. Oops, seems you forgot to add

:sarcasm: in there somewhere ;)

[Zhade]

52. Um, you're SUPPORTING ILLEGAL INVASIONS?

Are you fucking insane?

[ckramer]

61. Yeah, just like we illegally invaded Iraq

What the heck

[Codeine]

63. Are you serious?

Because that's the most reprehensible thing I've ever heard.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

81. Excuse me?

Seriously, WTF?

Neither Poland nor Ukraine ever belonged to Russia. Ever. Seperate countries, seperate cultures.

Sincerely,

A Polish-Ukrainian American.

Fool.

[atreides1]

96. You better check your history, Fool

From Wikipedia:

Human settlement in the territory of Ukraine dates back to at least 4500 BC, when the Neolithic Cucuteni culture flourished in a wide area that covered parts of modern Ukraine including Trypillia and the entire Dnieper-Dniester region. During the Iron Age, the land was inhabited by Cimmerians, Scythians, and Sarmatians. Between 700 BC and 200 BC it was part of the Scythian Kingdom, or Scythia. Later, colonies of Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, and the Byzantine Empire, such as Tyras, Olbia, and Hermonassa, were founded, beginning in the 6th century BC, on the northeastern shore of the Black Sea, and thrived well into the 6th century AD. In the 7th century AD, the territory of eastern Ukraine was part of Old Great Bulgaria. At the end of the century, the majority of Bulgar tribes migrated in different directions and the land fell into the Khazars' hands.

In the 9th century, much of modern-day Ukraine was populated by the Rus' people who formed the Kievan Rus'.

Rus’ (Русь, IPA: , Русичи, Русы) are an ancient people whose name survives in the cognates Russians,<1> Rusyns, and Ruthenians, and who are viewed by the modern Belarusians, Russians, and Ukrainians as the predecessors of their own peoples.

Ukraine has also been part of Poland and Lithuania.

By 1569, the Union of Lublin formed the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and a significant part of Ukrainian territory was moved from largely Ruthenized Lithuanian rule to the Polish administration, as it was transferred to the Polish Crown. Under the cultural and political pressure of Polonisation much of the Ruthenian upper class converted to Catholicism and became indistinguishable from the Polish nobility. Thus, the Ukrainian commoners, deprived of their native protectors among Ruthenian nobility, turned for protection to the Cossacks, who remained fiercely orthodox at all times and tended to turn to violence against those they perceived as enemies, particularly the Polish state and its representatives.

Left-bank Ukraine was eventually integrated into Russia as the Cossack Hetmanate, following the 1654 Treaty of Pereyaslav and the ensuing Russo-Polish War. After the partitions of Poland at the end of the 18th century by Prussia, Habsburg Austria, and Russia, Western Ukrainian Galicia was taken over by Austria, while the rest of Ukraine was progressively incorporated into the Russian Empire. Despite the promises of Ukrainian autonomy given by the Treaty of Pereyaslav, the Ukrainian elite and the Cossacks never received the freedoms and the autonomy they were expecting from Imperial Russia. However, within the Empire, Ukrainians rose to the highest offices of Russian state, and the Russian Orthodox Church. At a later period, the tsarist regime carried the policy of Russification of Ukrainian lands, suppressing the use of the Ukrainian language in print, and in public.

So, Ukraine did at one time belong to Russia, Poland, Lithuania, Cimmerians, Scythians, Sarmatians,
Ancient Greece, Ancient Rome, and the Byzantine Empire.

[SpikeTss]

7. This reminds me of Turkey not allowing its bases to be used for the war of aggression against Iraq

Bush and his henchmen and -women were really not happy about this.
Although: Turkey itself has an abysmal human rights records regarding Kurdish people.

[AllentownJake]

8. Which was one of the reasons the war was stupid in the first place

The only logical solution is Biden's plan to clean up the mess and Turkey will go crazy if there is a kurdish state.

[AllentownJake]

9. Putin's dream of re-establishing the old Soviet Empire

Looks like it is starting.

[ohio2007]

11. Russian war ships sail for Georgia

August 10, 2008, 17:14
Russian war ships sail for Georgia

The Russian Navy has confirmed that a section of its Black Sea Fleet is en route to the Georgian coastline. The task force includes a missile cruiser. Military officials insist the operation is to help refugees and is not part of an operation to blockade Georgia.

According to a source in the Russia’s defense ministry, three assault ships were earlier sent to the same destination.

‘This is not a sea-blockade, as a blockade would mean a state of war with Georgia, while we are not in a state of war’, the source said.

Georgia’s National Security Council Secretary, Aleksandr Lomaya, earlier said that Russian ships have reached the Abkhazian port of Ochamchir.


Ukraine may bar Russia from Black Sea

Ukraine’s Foreign Ministry has announced that Russian ships returning from the Georgian shore may be refused permission to enter its territorial waters in the Black Sea.

The ministry says Ukraine doesn’t want to be involved in the conflict between Russia and Georgia. It underlines that the move corresponds with the international law.

Meanwhile, Moscow remains unconvinced about Ukrainian claims of neutrality.

Referring to the shooting down of a Russian Tu-22 bomber over Georgia, the Defence Ministry says the Georgian military would have needed a C-200 anti-aircraft system to carry out the attack.

According to Russia, the Georgian army did not possess such equipment before the conflict.

Only Russia and Ukraine are armed with C-200 anti-aircraft systems, which is leading Russian defence officials to suspect that Kiev may have sold the equipment to Georgia.





http://russiatoday.com/news/news/28759

Georgia did knock down four migs recently, seems to be a breakdown in somebody's aircraft countermeasures equipment or
faulty intelligence on what was on the ground ?

Russia denies imposing naval blockade on Georgia

snip
Earlier, Interfax news agency cited a source in the Russian naval command as saying Russian ships had moved near the Georgian coast to prevent arms and other military supplies from reaching the country.

'Our navy sailors have been assigned the task of preventing arms and other military supplies from reaching Georgia by sea,' the source was quoted by Interfax as saying.

snip

'A sea blockade of Georgia will also help avert an escalation of military activity in Abkhazia,' a Russian-backed separatist region of Georgia along the Black Sea coastline, Interfax quoted the source as saying.

snip

....warships from Russia's Black Sea fleet had arrived in the eastern Black Sea, close to Georgia, including the flagship of the fleet and three major landing craft.

'On Sunday morning the flagship missile cruiser Moskva, the destroyer Smetlivy and support ships arrived in this area,' he was quoted as saying.

The ships joined three major landing craft that had already reached the area from the Black Sea ports of Sevastopol and Novorosiysk, in Ukraine and Russia, respectively, he added.

The warships' task was 'preparedness to assist refugees,' RIA Novosti quoted him as saying.

Georgia's government said Sunday that 4,000 Russian troops had landed in the port of Ochamchire in Abkhazia.


http://www.khaleejtimes.com/DisplayArticle08.asp?xfile=data/theworld/2008/August/theworld_August616.xml§ion=theworld
Yes, thats not a sea blockade...




?

thats an amphibious assault ;)

[bemildred]

13. "We are not at war."

That is so Bush-like, so US-foreign-policy-elite-like. It's like they have been studying us and learning our methods.

[AllentownJake]

16. We aren't at war either

We are in the 7th year of a police action. Congress has given away their war powers and authority to the Presidency since Vietnam.

[AllentownJake]

15. Hope the other former Soviet Republics unite

to fight this agression by the Putin.

[The Family Guy]

12. Let the Ukraine meddle, better them than us.

It's really not an important part of the world for the US. Make a complaint to the UN and let them solve the problem.

America should not be concerning itself about irrelevant foreign conflicts when we are headed into a serious recession at home. If Russia takes over some of it's neighbors, well that is sad, but it is the problem of Europe and the UN.

[AllentownJake]

14. It is an important area

Oil and Gas pipelines. If they didn't have that Russia would care less what they were doing. Expect oil prices to shoot up again this week. Who benefits from that...hmmmm

[The Family Guy]

17. It is not as important as you think.

So take the bus. Ride your bike. Take a train on vacation. Vacation at home.

You made the oil important. You make the prices go up by your attitude. If you own a car, you are part of that problem, and part of the cause of that war.

[AllentownJake]

18. I work 45 miles from where I live

and I own a fuel efficient car. Please tell me how I will bike 45 miles to work? There are no trains that take me there or I'd be more than happy to take the train. I don't go to work. I don't eat and most Americans are in my situation. I didn't build a society based on the automobile. We didn't build this society in a day we aren't going to change it in a day either. Your attitude is part of the reason we lose elections. Its going to be a 10-20 year transition from the Internal Combustion Engine. Not everyone can get on a bike.

Oh yeah and by the way not everyone can afford to move into the cities or work a few blocks to where they live and the way people change jobs do you think its intelligent to buy or rent close to your office. Companies lay people off all the time and people find better oppurtunities so you have to sell your house and leave your community everytime you want or need a new job.

Your statements make no sense.

[The Family Guy]

20. You must be kidding

So, to win elections we should pander to people that insist on being addicted to oil? You have to lead by example, not by pointing out how it's impossible. Let the Republicans be that voice.

Move to a community that has better public transportation. Elect officials who will make laws that force public transportation to be built. Look for a job closer to home.

Are you saying that there is just no way that you stop using petroleum? You just have to do it, and stop making defeatist excuses.

[AllentownJake]

26. No I live in the real world

In the real world statements from a party or a candidate that everyone should move or get a bike will result in a candidate getting 2% of the vote. The Presidential Election is a 50 state campaign and it can't be won with your ideas of everyone getting a bike or moving. Its like the idiots who ask why the people in Ethiopia are starving why they just don't move. You can stand on principle all you want to but when your principle isn't realistic than your principle is a waste of time. We need to have sympathy and work to help people make the transition in realistic way. This transition will take 10-20 years and significnat investment all of which I support but we also need to help people right now.

The public transportation infrastrucure has been either dismantled or never built in this country. It takes a significant amount of capital to re-build or build it and I support that. Train tracks connecting different towns and cities don't just appear overnight. That takes time, but the solution of "getting a bike" or "moving to a better place" is not plausible.

Lets say for the sake of argument everyone decides to take your suggestion and to "move to a better place" well than the demand for housing will increase and the price of housing that is already high in those areas will hit the roof. Not to mention the pressure on the areas public transporation infrastructe which will be unfit to handle the influx of people.

See I support real solutions, investment in new public transportation, alternative energy, electric automobiles, etc. However that infrastructure and transition to new technology will not occur over night. The problem didn't develop last year it isn't going to be fixxed next year either its a long and hard road that I support candidates who are willing to walk.

[The Family Guy]

28. Do what we've always done, get what we've always gotten.

It's the folks like you, without the courage of their convictions who have created the mess we have.

Ethiopia is a mess (and Dar fur, and Haiti and.....) because we never really get started doing anything. We issue platitudes about how bad things are and then we have people like you to say "will take 10-20 years and significant investment" or "I support real solutions". Of course, the people continue starving and when people like me point this fact out, you say "problem didn't develop last year it isn't going to be fixed next year". You sound like John McBush!

Perhaps if you set a better example rather than making excuses about why we can't do it, then your political candidates would get a backbone. They take the easy route because you do! If talk is what satisfies you, then you really stand for nothing. "Shit or get off the pot" as granddaddy used to say.

[AllentownJake]

29. Yes I'm doing nothing you caught me

:crazy: I put in 20-30 hours a week volunteering for Barack Obama on top of my real job. I hold events at my house and I give inkind donations to the effort in my town. I could move to Philadelphia I guess that has a half ass public transportation system mostly run on busses with your evil internal combusition engines which the price is going up on to run and the people who ride them are having to pay more and aren't happy about it.

Sometimes I even use my evil internal combustion engine to do work for the campaign by picking things up for the office and dropping it off or driving out to neighboorhoods to walk the street canvassing. I guess I could ride my bike to those neighboorhoods but that would be 2 hours I'm not talking to people and peddling.

You caught me I'm doing nothing for the cause and I'm not doing anything to support the candidate who wants to invest in moving us off oil. :crazy:

Other than riding your bike and being a good example...What the fuck are you doing.

[The Family Guy]

33. The changes are for other people to endure...not you?

Why are you supporting Obama? You don't live by the ideals he supports.

Some oil usage may be needed, but we could supply our needs from our own oil production if people changed their ways. You say you "could" move but don't? Why not? If your comfort and lifestyle are more important than doing the things you ask others to do, then you are a hypocrite. Supporting Obama is lovely, but it is you who are keeping us on oil.

Why not support those busses by riding on them? Why not use additional oil taxes to offset the cost of a bus? Or add a tax to car registration to update the rail systems?

I work hard to support Obama, but I use existing transportation and shoe leather to do the work. I DID move to the city to work. It was a hard change, but living in suburbia just adds to America's dysfunctions. I'm not proud of America for the first time in my life....yet. But maybe if people like you get their asses in gear, I soon will be.

[AllentownJake]

35. I'm not spending anymore time arguing with your holier than thou posts

You think that we are going to get where we need to get to overnight and ignores the plight of a majority of Americans because you think you did something good moving into a city. Not everyone can just pick up and move. I support everything your talking about but your attacking me for living in the 3rd largest city in PA. I don't live in some backward subburb I live in a major metropolitan area where you can't get where you need to go by busses all the time.

My ass is in gear. Open your eyes to the complexity of the problem and realistic solutions. Welcome to DU by the way.

[The Family Guy]

37. Saying "I can't" is not realistic

Thanks for the welcome. I am not "holier than thou". I just expect people to do what they asking others to do. If you use the excuse that "you can't get where you need to go by busses all the time" then that is what others will do. If we don't use public transportation and bicycles, and rarely our cars when we truly need to, than those things will always be seen as quaint, but not really for me. It's time to stop the excuses, elect an anti-big oil candidate, and live the lifestyle that we have been preaching. It is easy if you try, but it is impossible if the only tool in your toolbox is an excuse.

[AllentownJake]

39. I'm not asking anyone to do anything

Your the one asking people to get a bike. I'm calling for infrastructure to be built and technology to be developed the difference is I understand its not going to happen overnight. I'm more than happy to take a train to my job than ride a bike a mile. The problem is all the train tracks were torn up in the 70 and its going to take 5-10 years to rebuild them and 2-3 years before that to aquire the land to get them in place.

Our candidate asked people to inflate their tires for better mileage and the right went nuts...what do you think would happen in Indiana, Virginia, PA, Ohio, Montana, Nevada, and New Mexico if he told people to get a bike. :crazy:

[The Family Guy]

45. Thats what happens when you pander

The tire inflation idea was pandering. Sure, it saves a gallon or two, but that is just a finger in the dyke. They right wing seeks out that weakness and exploits it. They point out that we don't do what we tell others to do. That makes your whole argument look silly, and it's hard to come back from that. Perhaps if people stood their ground on these issues and educated the public on reasonable alternatives, people would say" Aha, now there is an idea I can get behind". Instead, we explain how it not possible to solve the problem in 10 or 20 years, but drilling is bad because it helps solve the problem but takes 5 - 10 years. If that is all we hear, then peoples simple math takes over. That is why this issue is slipping away. Holy FICA wages folks, it's time to start doing what you should have been doing all along.

[AllentownJake]

46. I'll put this out there again just so you can get an edumecation

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy

Before you start telling me what my candidate who I've been with since February on a very active basis supports please actually read my candidate's energy plan.

When you find get a bike and move in there...please let me know.

[The Family Guy]

51. So it makes you angry when people urge folks to conserve???

Your candidate? I see, so if I choose to conserve and you don't then I am no longer on the Obama bus. Ah, and putting air in your tires and quoting his website is good, but doing what he says or <gasp> finding a bike is bad?

Maybe you should actually listen to his speeches and take the ideas to heart, rather than working solely to win and ignoring the whole message.

Senator Obama said in a speech: "Saying that America is addicted to oil without following a real plan for energy independence is like admitting alcoholism and then skipping out on the 12-step program." and "We must demand that they (auto makers) revamp their production, we must assist that transition, and we must make the choice to buy these cars when we have the option."

Oh and as far as bikes go: "It's time that the entire country learn from what's happening right here in Portland with mass transit and bicycle lanes and funding alternative means of transportation. That's the kind of solution that we need for America."

-- Barack Obama, speaking to a rally in Portland, Ore., where an estimated 8,000 out of 75,000 attendees arrived on bikes


If all you know is what you can quote from a website, and all you do is mock people who are actually making "change" then how can you truly say that Barack Obama is "my candidate who I've been with since February"

Sounds like maybe you should vote for McBush and more of the same. After all, if McBush wins, you can keep griping and still not have to make any changes yourself.

[AllentownJake]

53. You fail to understand my point

Most Americans don't live within biking distance from work. Requiring them to do so is almost instituting a serfdom being tied to the property that is close to their employer. In the current state of American workers people don't keep the job for 25 years collect a pension and retire.

I own a bike. I ride a bike. A bike can't take me to everywhere I need to go. Not every city in the country has the infrastructure in place to allow for what you are asking. Go get a bike is about the same as saying let them eat cake.

Building mass transit isn't going to occur overnight. I'm glad to see Portland has invested in it and I hope my town invests in it too. You see though right now the state and local governments are running huge deficits. So funding these projects is hard (less people working less tax revenue). So it takes the federal government to help these municipalities get these programs started. W isn't helping us. I'm very happy for Portland and I agree with Obama other municipalities should learn from Portland.

I never said it can't be done. I said this type of things don't occur overnight. Portland public transportation and bike lanes didn't appear one day out of nowhere.

You found a line in one speech mentioning bikes...and he doesn't say you all need to ditch your cars and ride bikes I don't care how far you live away from work. He compliments a community for being ahead of the curve.

BTW I'd ride my bike to an Obama rally too...biggest reason traffic would be a bitch.

[The Family Guy]

55. No one said bikes are the only answer

Perhaps you miss my point. I don't believe I said that bikes are the only answer....I never implied we should turn America into Beijing, though I think the Chinese have a good grasp of how to get around.

My point was, and still is, that people need to do everything they can to conserve....not just talk the talk. people need to stop making excuses for why they can't do it. Democrats need do what they ask the country to do, not make excuses for why all these energy saving measures are a good idea and then point out how, while the ideas are good, they are not really for US.

I started by advocating oil conservation. I have heard that people live too far from work to conserve, they don't want to move, it will take 10-20 years to do anything, bikes are no solution as there is too much traffic, busses don't go where I want to go, people will get mad and not vote Obama if we tell them to conserve, there is no infrastructure, trains would be expensive and take a long time........Hell, It sounds like the John McCain homepage. And all this because I said that people need to be leaders and start to conserve more than they are doing. Those places like Portland have people who did that. If all you can find is reasons not to follow through, then I think it is YOU that fails to understand the point.

[AllentownJake]

56. Beijing?

Is one of the smoggiest cities in the world :rofl: Most of China is a rural society in transition. Sorry just had to point that out.

I don't think we disagree with much however, I'm not saying not to do it. I'm saying its going to take years to unwind the mess we got ourselves into. Its not going to be cheap and its not going to occur overnight and a majority of Americans live in places outside of cities like Portland. We are in a transitional phase as a society and as a transitional phase we have to phase out of old technology to new technology. When new consumer technology comes out its expensive to recover R&D costs. The government has to offset those R&D costs during that transition.

Telling someone who is considering to vote for Obama in a small town in Indiana or PA he needs to give up his car for a bike or move to a bigger city isn't going to help us carry those states. Telling them when its time for you to buy a new car we'll make sure it energy efficient and affordable and we'll connect your town to other towns through rail service so you can work in the town next to you without having to drive will.

[AllentownJake]

54. No asking people to conserve doesn't make me angry

Assuming the answer to a complex problem and can solve everything with having everyone move or get bikes as an answer does and criticizing good progressives who don't have that option but are working so that better options will eventually be available in a holier than thou attitude makes me want to :puke:

[WriteDown]

72. Portland...

Land of gentrification. I love when all these homogeneous cities are lauded as examples. Places where brown people have been systematically displaced don't rank very high with me.

[snappyturtle]

86. What do the citizens of Portland do in the winter...ride bikes? nt

[Marrah_G]

84. Jake

Why are you arguing with a self-righteous jackass who joined 6 days ago? You are being baited.

[AllentownJake]

19. Oh yeah and BTW

Who benefits from disrupting oil supply and increasing price...maybe a country with a large supply of oil like RUSSIA.

[The Family Guy]

21. They only benefit if you BUY their oil.

If you burn it, they will come. People who choose to live on oil are the ones driving the price up. Let China and India do that.

Or, just use oil, and claim that you are helpless in the face of overwhelming circumstances. That requires no sacrifice at all on your part.

[AllentownJake]

27. I think the only thing we are arguing is timeframe

The internal combustion engine isn't going to disapear in a day. It will take time for us to get off of it.

As new technology comes out people will buy it but it will take time till the cars that run on gasoline disapear off the road and the public transportation infrastructure is built. We need a transition plan while we are dealing with this otherwise the Drill Here, Drill Now, Pay Less liars are going to win the elections and nothing we want will get done.

[ohio2007]

22. but some people complain about the price of food going up and never consider transporation costs

of having that pizza delivered in 30 minutes of less ;)

btw,
who is hit the hardest with rising oil ?

Not first world nations thats for sure but soon, the wealthy first worlders won't be able to afford to support the 3rd world welfare states.

[The Family Guy]

23. That is our penance. Higher prices but better ideals.

If you vote to get off oil, you are voting for across the board price increases, and naturally tax increases to offset the damage done to the poor. That is our penance for our reliance on oil. Yes, it will cost a fortune, but it is the right thing to do.

[AllentownJake]

31. Penance being paid by the poor

Not the assholes who got us into the mess in the first place.

[The Family Guy]

34. Simple taxes could solve that issue.

Make the rich and the oil users pay a stiff tax for their behaviors. Use that money to subsidize the most vulnerable Americans.

[AllentownJake]

38. umm the oil users are the poor/lower middle class

What do you have this ridiculous idea that only rich people own cars? The family of 4 that has an income of 35,000-50,000 that is squeaking by with all their other expenses and trying to save for their kids to attend schools so they can have a better life are now being hit with increased food prices and fuel cost to get to their jobs you want to add a tax on them? I'm not even bringing up the single family homes.

Who do you think drives most of the cars in this country families making 80,000-250,000 a year.

[WriteDown]

32. And the people who starve or lose their jobs...

they are just collateral damage, right? What bubble do you live in? You sound like a Wall Street hedge fund manager.

[The Family Guy]

36. What? Did you get that from Bill O'Reilly?

There is no need for the underprivileged to suffer. We are a rich nation, and we would be richer if we kept our money here instead of sending it to Bush's wealthy friends in Saudi Arabia, or giving it to Exxon. It would be easy to tax the people who insist on driving cars and using that money to offset the costs we incur. If we used more local produce, or used rails to transport goods more, the price of diesel would drop, and so would food prices. You just don't want to face the fact that oil addiction is the real cause of all those troubles. The only way out is to fix the problem, one family at a time if need be. Instead of offering our politicians excuses, make them do what is right.

[AllentownJake]

40. Where are you posting from Europe

Where they have in place the things that make your lifestyle feasible and it doesn't have to be purchased over the next 5-25 years.

[WriteDown]

41. Huh?

You are the one that sounds like you are espousing repuke values. A poster previously states that he lives 45 miles from work and he cannot afford real estate closer to his job. Millions of people are in the same boat. Are you prepared to just write them off. What kind of people would you tax, pickup truck owners? And how exactly would that help the people commuting to their jobs. Gasoline is just part of the problem. Look around you. Everything, and I mean everything is made of plastic. Nothing is going to replace that soon. The fact that you think it'll be easy for the poor and those just getting by to toss out their autos seems to indicate that you are out of touch.

[AllentownJake]

42. Apparently the poster moved to a city with decent public transportation

and now has a holier than thou attitude about the majority of the country who live in areas removed from the infrastructure the poster enjoys. Nor does the poster realize the efforts that have to be taken to get that infrastructure. Capital spending, forcefully moving people with eminent domain to lay train tracks, etc etc.

[The Family Guy]

43. So you support Obama, just not his mission statement.

It seems that there are just endless reasons why you can't. Or, if you can, it will 10, 20, 30 years.

People said the same things in the 70s, and here we are 30 years later, saying them again. Yes, petroleum is a problem.....we'll get to it as soon as we can.

Ok, put up or shut up. I can become a Freeper if I want excuses. If you live 45 miles from your job and claim there is no housing closer, the real reason is that you don't care for any of the closer housing.....Buy a battery powered car for the 45 mile commute? Oh, but those are too small and uncool. So much easier to excuse my behavior, or blame it on others.

If you think there is no way to build a train, how about an electric bus? No tracks, no eminent domain, little infrastructure.

If it will hurt the less privileged, then tax the activity to pay for the damage it causes. Vehicles used for work can be exempt. Have a mileage tax? then you tax the real abusers....it's been tested successfully in several states. Wheel taxes, Energy Taxes, tax rebates for electric car usage. Toll-ways instead of Free-ways. All ideas people can get behind, unless you point out how it's just too much of an inconvenience.


How easy it is to say we can't and then vote for Obama and say "There, see. i did all I could.". The reason we lose elections is that when you say something is terrific but you don't do it yourself, people think you are just an idealogue....and they are right. Why should someone support a movement that it's own members don't really believe in? So go ahead and hit me with more reasons we can't (or really reasons why we won't) I can give just as many reasons we can, but don't.

[AllentownJake]

44. From the Obama website

Obama’s comprehensive New Energy for America plan will:
Watch the VideoProvide short-term relief to American families facing pain at the pump
Help create five million new jobs by strategically investing $150 billion over the next ten years to catalyze private efforts to build a clean energy future.
Within 10 years save more oil than we currently import from the Middle East and Venezuela combined.
Put 1 million Plug-In Hybrid cars -- cars that can get up to 150 miles per gallon -- on the road by 2015, cars that we will work to make sure are built here in America.
Ensure 10 percent of our electricity comes from renewable sources by 2012, and 25 percent by 2025.
Implement an economy-wide cap-and-trade program to reduce greenhouse gas emissions 80 percent by 2050

http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/newenergy

Now stop telling me what Obama supports. When you have no clue yourself. I don't see move and get a bike being on his to do list.

Oh and by the way I'm doing alot more than just "voting for Obama"

By the way I drive a small car that gets 35 miles to the gallon I'd buy a Prius but I don't have the money for one and the wait to get one is 6-8 months in my area even if I did. Since I don't have the money for a Prius I don't have the money to buy an electic bus to take me to my job either.

Oh yeah and I never disagreed with some of the things you are saying about moving us in the right direction but the things you are expecting me to utilize to get to my job don't fucking exist right now and if they do exist they aren't being sold in America at a reasonable price.

[The Family Guy]

49. So, are you doing those things?

He wants to:

Eliminate Our Need for Middle Eastern and Venezuelan Oil within 10 Years

Reduce our Greenhouse Gas Emissions 80 Percent by 2050.

by:

Weatherizing One Million Homes Annually.

Get 1 Million Plug-In Hybrid Cars on the Road by 2015.

Ensure 10 percent of Our Electricity Comes from Renewable Sources by 2012, and 25 percent by 2025.

How many of these things do you do now? You could already have done them all, and be standing tall. But instead, we point to how Obama will do them for us. If he loses, it will be because people won't vote for change that the very proponents of change won't do for themselves. I hear that argument every day at work, and it is hard to counter. We would I vote for people who want ME to change but would not change themselves? I changed already, so I can show others what I did. But still, it lacks gravitas when you are one of a tiny minority.

Barack wants to: Make the U.S. a Leader on Climate Change. How can we do that if his own supporters won't be leaders themselves. Passing out pamphlets is lovely and makes you feel good, but the real change takes place at home. Be a leader, not a nay-sayer.

[AllentownJake]

50. I'm glad your doing well however most Americans aren't

A Prius cost $21,500. Which is the best option right now. There are no electic cars and the first one that will hit the market is in 2010 and will probably cost that much or more. I have a car I bought 6 years ago that I just stopped making payments on two years ago that gets decent gas mileage and isn't a SUV. When I got my car it cost less than $21,500 and I'm not doing as well financially as I was doing than because the economy is in the shitter and I no longer get a bonus at the end of the year and this is what the average American is going through. Most people actually have it worse than I do so who the government needs us to help pay for the new Hybrid cars and also ensure there is an adequate supply of Hybrid cars.

Even if I had the money for a Prius it would take me 6-8 months to get one from a dealer. So that's 6-8 months of paying out my ass for gass with my compact gas guzzler.

Guess what the government is going to have to intervene here and help Americans reach those goals because unlike people who are obviously doing well like you are we are barely scraping by right now. All of the goals you posted aren't thing indivuals do they are things the government does or encourages with tax breaks or through programs.

You conviently leave at that most of Obama's plans are over 5-25 years with short term relief for the transition which is what I've been pointing at.

I'm glad your doing so well that you can set an example for the rest of us. I worship at your greatness :sarcasm:

[WriteDown]

67. I moved from Plano which is about...

25 miles from my office to a house in Dallas which is about 6 miles. I moved into a "transitional" neighborhood where crime was pretty high, but had a lot of potential. I was robbed 6 months later and my house was cleaned out by two men in an air conditioning van. I guess its all for the cause right :sarcasm:.

[MellowDem]

57. Good for Ukraine!

Stand up the neighborhood bully that is Russia! Russia likes to bark, but it has no bite. It couldn't retake the Soviet territories, even if it tried, and the effort would destroy Russia itself.

[Odin2005]

58. Good for Ukraine.

Ukraine to Russia "We are not your vassals any more, go fuck yourselves."

[chatnoir]

60. Slava Ukraini n/t

[Paula Sims]

88. Slava Heroyam (translit: Honor to the heroes)!!

As a Ukrainian, I feel great that my countrymen finally are standing up to their Russian oppressors. Feels good. Unfortunately, that feeling is fleeting because, as someone posted, Ukraine needs the natural gas from Russia for heating during the winter. It's a delicate game Yushchenko has to play -- nationalism vs the nation. I wonder what Tymoshenko would have done has she been in his place. Yes, Yushchenko has made deals with the devil regarding the outcome of the Orange revolution but at least the country is no longer under the oppression of the evil Puti-Put.

Interesting situation of "chicken"

[chatnoir]

92. Za Ukrainy!!

:toast:

I feel Ukraine very close to my heart and am proud it has taken a stand against their neighbor's aggression. The gas situation is a delicate game Yushchenko must play, unfortunately. I wondered myself what Tymoshenko would have done in his place. He did make deals with the devil but somehow certain quarters parlay that into his being a US-puppet for their own political machinations/benefit.

[New Dawn]

62. Ukraine also has a US-installed puppet regime just like Georgia

Those two puppet regimes have been working together (by Ukraine supplying arms to Georgia) to help murder the South Ossetian people.

[TheLastMohican]

66. Right you are

Moreover, there are reports that Ukrainian mercenaries have been killed in South Ossetia fighting on the Georgian side.

3 or 4 bodies shown on TV, clearly slavs, not georgians.

If I were Ukraine, I would try to be as invisible on the issue as possible.

[chatnoir]

68. Right, Russian media

The same who are also reporting many black mercenaries fighting for Georgia. :eyes:

[rayofreason]

76. Black mercenaries...

...in Georgia would play right into the huge Russian racist orientation. Just wait for hysterical reports like Black Georgian Mercenaries Rape Blond Russian-Ossetian Women. Hell, there will probably be links to interracial porn sites provided as "evidence."

I remember a conversation in Moscow in 1990 with a guy I had just met, who on learning that I was an American, went into a rant about how he does not like black people. I asked how how many black people he knew. He told me that had never met a black person! From my last trip to Moscow a couple of years ago, I would say that little has changed.

Just goes to show that the Russian media is scraping the bottom of every pit it can find to whip up hatred of Georgians.

[chatnoir]

78. Pandering to their worst prejudices

It's fairly out in the open there and for a Westerner like myself when I've been there it's fairly shocking how open exactly many are about it. If you've ever seen Russian football games when they're playing a European team with non-white players, the banners/signs can be quite disgusting.

Russia media incites this hysteria that everyone is an enemy. I guess saying blacks is a way of also implying US soldiers are fighting alongside the Georgians. Another bogeyman for them: the US.

Volunteering to Kill Georgians

"A tall, blond, athletic Serb in his mid- 40s, with blue eyes and curly long blond hair, comes into the courtyard. He walks over to the group of Cossacks, picks the oldest one out of the group and gives him a big hug and a kiss on both cheeks. According to two of the men in the courtyard, the Serb, who is wearing new fatigues and slightly worn Asolo hiking boots, had fought Bosnia and is now there to fight in South Ossetia and Georgia. He may have fought in Chechnya, but no one will say. I talk to him for a moment. He speaks some English but is more comfortable in his lightly accented Russian. "I've come to fight in South Ossetia alongside the Russians," he says.

The older men in the group of would-be recruits sit in a row on a bench smoking cigarettes. Some carry plastic, red-, white- and blue-striped rice bags. The few recruiters who agree to be interviewed tell similar stories. They accuse the American and western press of lying about the events in Georgia. No one believes that the Russians have invaded Georgia and that Tbilisi and other cities have been bombed. Because the Russian press has not reported it, they say, it cannot be true. A rumor widely circulated is that black soldiers have been spotted fighting on the Georgian side. This is seen as incontrovertible evidence that America is helping Georgia with military aid. There is widespread, anti-American sentiment here.

<snip>

Kuchiev has amber eyes and a calm but intense demeanor. He served his two years in the Russian army at a base near Moscow. Now he is unemployed, and wearing a bright red shirt and pointy black shoes. "I want to go to Tskhinvali. The Georgians shot small children there. I want to go kill Georgians."

More : http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1831523,00.html

[Inuca]

73. You think there are no slavs in Georgia

after all these years as part of the russian empire?

[rayofreason]

74. "on TV, clearly slavs, not georgians"????

That is one hell of a tricorder you've got there Mr. Spock.

[rayofreason]

75. Talk about Russian propaganda!

The governments of Ukraine and Georgia are democratic governments brought to power by popular movements against corrupt authoritarians. Those nations had been occupied and ruled by Russia for centuries. Now they want the Russians to let go and Russia does not want to. Poland and the Baltic states know what is at stake, and their statement began -

"We, the leaders of the former captive nations from Eastern Europe and current members of the European Union and NATO– Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland – are extremely concerned about the actions of the Russian Federation against Georgia." (emphasis added)

Boy, that really pissed off the Kremlin because 1. Putin don't like to be challenged, and 2. They would like to get rid of that "former" business.

From the content of your post I conclude that you are either an ignorant fool or an enabler of the Russian project to retake the near-abroad by force if need be. Probably both.

[TheLastMohican]

79. Don't repeat the same media garbage please

Governments of Ukraine and Georgia was pushed down everybody's throat through "Orange" and "Rose" revolutions supported and financed by you-know-who.
What you hear coming from Ukraine are just official messages from ze government, ukrainian people on the other gather money and supplies for bombed out South Ossetians.
I have lots of ties with people living and working there, no need to dismiss me with russian propaganda crap!

[rayofreason]

80. What evidence do you have..

that "....Governments of Ukraine and Georgia was pushed down everybody's throat through "Orange" and "Rose" revolutions " except for Russian propaganda?

On what basis do you call bullshit on the documented histories of these events?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rose_Revolution
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orange_Revolution

I also have many colleagues and friends in both Moscow and Tbilisi - relationships that go back more than 20 years. The events in Ukraine and Georgia were authentic, bloodless, people power revolutions that brought popular, democratically elected governments to power, and I challenge you to provide real evidence to the contrary. And Pravda or Izvestia do not count. It reminds me of the good-old-bad-old days: в Правде нет Известия и в Извести никакая правда.

[NickB79]

77. How much natural gas does Russia supply to the Ukraine?

If they displease the Russians, all they have to do is stop the sale of Russian gas to the Ukraine and watch the Ukrainian economy implode.

Seriously, Russia has itself a major trump card in the form of energy, and they WILL play it if they need to.

[Crowman1979]

93. And Ukraine has the major trump card in the naval port of Sevastopol!

They just had to wait for the right time for Russia's Black Sea Fleet to leave it. Now Russia is without an equivalent port large enough in that area to repair or maintain it's ships. And if this war had continued, they would have been blocked from going to either the baltic, Murmansk or Vladivostok. Since the only way out is the strait which goes through Turkey. Plus the cost to build another port of it's equivalent would be enormous!

[Crowman1979]

94. That said, the US and the EU had jack shit to do with the cease fire.

It was through the actions of the former soviet republics that made this possible.

[amandabeech]

98. Russia has already cut off and threatened to cut of gas to Ukraine and Moldova.

I believe that Estonia and Poland have had problems, too. In the winter. They've been through it and lived.

Did you notice that Ukraine's president, Yushenko, the one who was mysteriously poisoned a few years ago, stood on the podium with Saakashvili and the prime minister, presidents or foreign ministers of Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland at one of Saakashvili's outdoor speeches today?

Those nations are in Russia's crosshairs, yet there they were, supporting the leader of another country who they probably think is similarly situated.

They have lots of guts.

[Crowman1979]

100. Ukraine is a lot bigger than Georgia.

Added with the fact that the Ukraine has a more sophisticated military, will drive the russian army into chernobyl and cause casualties without firing a shot--using this as a military tactic.

[amandabeech]

101. That's an interesting possibility.

Is this your idea? If so, neato.

Do you have any info on whether Ukraine would do this?

[Crowman1979]

105. Only when invaded!

Their not cocky like the Georgians are. Especially since a large percentage of their military leadership had prior soviet military experience.

[Crowman1979]

106. Yeah, the chernobyl thing was my idea.

Because it makes common sense, driving an invading army into the most artificially radioactive piece of land on the planet.

[happyslug]

95. Geography has been called the "Curse of History", and Russian Geography explains its Paranoia

Geography more than any other factor has determined a country's outlook. For Example Egypt will (and has) gone to war with anyone that threatens the Flow of the Nile waters. The Nile is Egypt's heart and any threat to the Nile will bring swift and violent response from Egypt. China has the same attitude to its two main rivers, threaten either and they will fight to the death. India was NEVER united before the British for India is in reality three Countries, One that look to the Ganges, one the looks to the Indus and Southern India that looks to the coasts. Brazil is the Amazon and its tributaries (and Brazil has gone to war to protect the headwaters of the tributaries of the Amazon). One of the reason the US dislikes Castro is that Cuba has been used as a base to attack New Orleans (By the Spanish when they took it peacefully from the French in 1763, by the English in 1815 and by the Union Forces in 1862). The US heart is the Mississippi river and its tributaries (i.e. the Ohio and Missouri Rivers and the easy portage to the Great Lakes, Canada adopted the Dollar in the 1850s for Canada had become economically part of the US by that time, the British looked at defending Canada during the US Civil War and realized it was impossible so gave Canada its independence in 1867 so if the US ever really anted to annex Canada, the British could call its Canada's call and ignore anybody who spoke of Sending British forces to Canada, this has been acceptable to Canada and the US ever since).

Russia is NOT based on a River, but like France the Portage between rivers. Furthermore Russia has no desert or Mountains on its borders to act as natural borders. Thus where does Russia ends? Half way to the Vistula (The main river in Poland)? How Independent is the Ukraine since the Modern Russian State claims descent from Ancient Rus whose Capital was Kiev, the Capital of Modern Ukraine. You can not use a river as a border for a River is a highway and that is where most people live. The problem for Russia is its nearest natural borders is the Baltic Sea, The Silesia Mountains of Modern WESTERN Poland (Germany prior to WWII). The Romanian Alps which separates the Ukraine from Romania, the Black Sea, The Caucasus Mountains, the Deserts of the Aral Sea area and Western China the Arctic and Pacific Oceans. If you look at this area it is one flat piece of earth, the Ural Mountains is in the middle, but it borders no Country and the passes are so wide that is is NOT much of a barrier (as is the River that flows out of the Ural Mountains, the Ural Rivers, both together is the traditional border between Asia and Europe, but like the rest of the borders between the above Natural Borders an Arbitrary one).

This is complicated by two factors, the person who drew the borders of the former Soviet States (and why he did it) and the use of many of the countries on the edges of the above territory as bases for attack on Russia itself. First the internal borders, Drawn by that lover of peoples, Joseph Stalin (I am being Sarcastic). Stalin drew the borders for one thing, to keep the Russian #1 AND to make sure he could always get a Majority of votes. For example, he further divided up the Russian Federation so that he could always win the majority of those votes (and make sure they were all his supporters) then use his supporters (Mostly Russians) to win sizable minorities in the other Federal Republics. He then used the these two groups to win on the Federal level making sure the Russians were #1. In fact after WWII Stalin was so afraid of the addition of the various Warsaw Pact nations into the Soviet Union, he set them up as Allies outside the Soviet Union, thus he could again use his control over who made up the majority of the Soviet Union to outvote his "Allies". Thus the borders were never intended to be made up of one or another set of people. Stalin wanted each to be mixed AND with huge Russian Minorities so he could use them to control those countries even when technically being ruled by whatever was the Majority nationality in that Country. Thus the borders are artificial and NOT design to minimized conflict but to maximize Conflict, something the majorities in each country has refused to accept and keep falling into the trap set up by Stalin.

The second problem is how often these countries have been used by other powers to invade Russia. Darius I of Persia invaded what is now the Ukraine via modern day Bulgaria (then Thrace). Herodotus takes him as far East as the Volga, but most historians believe no further East then the Don. Rome had some bases in what is now the Crimean but stayed out of Russian Steppes. Byzantine, on the other hand, did send troops into the Steppes (Mostly AFTER the Arab Conquest, when the food source for the City of Constantinople shifted from Egypt, which had come under Arab Control). Post Arab Conquest food source for Constantinople became the Ukraine. The introduction of the Heavy plow converted the Ukraine from an area of pastures to a primary farming area about the same time period.

With the Dark Ages you have the Vikings Invading from the North, continued Byzantine interventions, and then you have the Mongol Conquest. This put Russia under Mongolian power for over 200 years (during Which Timberlane Invaded what was then called the "Golden Horde" and while never attacking any Russian city, his troops destroyed areas now considered Russian, his base or supplies was Persia and the Central Asia Republics of today). Also at the same time you have the German Invasion via the Teutonic Knights, and when the Knights were defeated in 1415 by the Poles, the Poles invaded Russia during Russian's "Time of Troubles" (The Poles attacked in Winter and left in the Spring, a lesson ignored by all subsequent invaders, through the Mongols had also attacked in Winter).

The Swedes under Charles X fought Peter the Great for what is now St Petersburg around 1700. Charles X used the Baltic States as basis for his wars with Russia. The Turks attacked from the South via present day Romania (following the Path of Darius I) or via the Caucasus (and sometime via the Black Sea and the Crimea). Napoleon, while using French troops, used Poland as his base of supply for his attack on Russia. Britain, France and Turkey used the Black Sea to attack Sevastopol during the Crimean war of the early 1850s. In 1905 Japan attacked the Russian fleet while it sat at anchor and then declared war (Repeating the same maneuver at Pearl Harbor 36 years later). While China has never attacked Russia, China was the Base the Mongols used in the 1200s for the Mongol conquest of Russia. Lets don't forget the German invasions of WWI AND WWII and the French, British and American intervention during the Russian Revolution and Civil War (1918-1921). These invasion hit the Russian Arctic (mostly Archangel and Murmansk). The Russian Pacific (Vladivostok) and even the Central Asia Republics via British invention from Persia and India.

The above is to show that Russia is paranoid, but with good reasons. Russia has NOT liked any power on its border and will view such power actions on its borders with suspicion. What has the above to do with Georgia? Georgia has come under increased US influence over the last ten years. Russia does not, never has and never will trust another power having influence over an country on its borders (This Finland since WWII have never let US troops inside its borders and kept itself neutral between East and West during the Cold War, even after the end of the Soviet Union Finland has refused to demand a return to its pre-WWII borders, knowing that it was to close to St Petersburg to make Russia happy). Finland was NEVER a member of the Warsaw Pact but never favored the US during the Cold War (This was also followed by Sweden, through Sweden was more willing to fight Soviet naval units if they entered its waters, something Finland was reluctant to do).

Given this history and Geography what does Bush do? He offers NATO membership to Poland and the Baltic States, all states that are jumping off points for invading Russia. Russia will accept an alliance and an offer of protection for these states by the US against Russia, but NATO is an integrated military force in addition to being an alliance. As part of an integrated Military force these countries are a direct threat to Russia, for each then can be used as a base to attack Russia and that is unacceptable to Russia. The same with the US alliance with Georgia, it is more an attempt to encircle Russia (And return to the old encirclement doctrine of the Cold War) then any valuable alliance for the US. The US has Turkey as an ally, why does it what Georgia? Any Russian move south will be stopped by Turkey (or in Turkey by Nato Forces). Georgia's only value to the US is as a base to cross the Caucasus (And that is why the old Russian Empire wanted Georgia and why the former Soviet Union wanted Georgia, Georgia is a great base to attack up the Volga and the Don into Russia, the Don can be attack via the Black Sea, but the Volga the largest river in Europe empties into the Caspian Sea, thus to attack along it you need Georgia).

Yes I know Bush probably only wants Georgia as way to bypass Russia for Natural Gas shipments from Iran to Europe, but that is NOT how the Russians are looking at it and why I went into the above.

[amandabeech]

97. So, then, is it your opinion that powerful nations have the right to dominate

their neighbors now? If so, do you agree that the U.S. has the right to dominate its neighbors? Do we get to invade Cuba, for example?

[happyslug]

108. I was NOT given an opinion, but an explanation of why Russia is Russia.

Geography and history is the best explanation, and to understand a country you must study both. That is all I was pointing out and it has been the best explanation of Russia's actions since the days of the Rus.

[Lithos]

99. Yes, geography is important,

But Russia is not so wide open as you project. One of the major barriers which has served to define the border area between Russia, Poland, Ukraine and Lithuania is the Pripet Marshes. The other which was a barrier until very recent times were the vast forests of Russia.

[happyslug]

109. The Pripet Marshes are only a barrier during the Summer,

During the winter the Pripet Marshes freeze like the rest of Russia and becomes an open Highway. It was this frozen state that the Mongols used to conquer Russia in the 1200s. It was this Frozen state that the Teutonic Knights used to invade Prussia about the same time period (In fact prior to the First Battle of Tannenberg in 1415, the head of the Teutonic Order told the invading German Host to wait for Winter to March on Poland, but they ignored him). This was the great error of Charles X, Napoleon and Hitler, they attacked Russia in Summer where the Swamps and Rivers are Barriers. In Winter they all Freeze over and Russia is one big flat plain from the Baltic to the Pacific.

More on the Marshes:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pinsk_Marshes

Please note the Marshes are NOT much of a Barrier to horse mounted troops, Germany maintained its last Calvary unit in the Marshes till the Red Army pushed the German Army into Poland in 1944. My point is simple the Marshes are NOT much of a Barrier and are easily bypassed. IT is an area of Low population and thus often used as a border between administrative units(As it is today between Russia, Belarus and the Ukraine) but it is till more a line drawn in the dirt then any real border like a set of Mountains or the Sea (And the sea may NOT be a barrier for a sea like the Baltic and the North Sea have long been used for trade and thus tend to unite people more then separate them). .

[Lithos]

111. Tannenburg

Is in what was Eastern Prussia, the Pripet Marshes are what are now most of Belarus extending slightly southward into the Ukraine. The Polish Troops crossed the Vistula and went northward from Central Poland while the Knights went southward from East Prussia - the Pripet Marshes never entered into the picture.

No recollection of any significant Hun movement in Winter, all campaigns north of about Bulgaria were done in April when they could provide fodder for their horses. Russian Winter (which I could also argue is a major barrier) would have prevented any major movement of forces. The only crossing of a major body of water during the era you describe was the crossing of the Danube by the Mongols in 1241/42, but the Mongols were already encamped in Hungary and were engaged in a large scale plundering operation. Both the Huns and the Mongols as a matter of point avoided heavy forests as their horses lacked maneuverability and their main movements generally went SOUTH of the Pripets.

The Germans kept their last cavalry unit there as a pack unit because it was SO harsh. However, cavalry tactics of WWII were QUITE a bit different than that of the Huns or Mongols. First the Germans operated from bases and the horses were used to move infantry and carry equipment - think of it more as mounted infantry (ride and dismount). They had few of the logistical issues that the Huns/Mongols would have faced. This is quite a bit different than the Mongols/Huns who used their horses as fighting platforms, continually on the move while on campaign.

Also in WWII, it was the Pripet Marshes which divided the Soviet Union such that it created in effect two fronts, North and South which the Germans exploited initially to concentrate their forces in 1941 to help isolate the Soviet Armies.

[Winterraven]

102. Viktor Juschtschenko

signed a new order, every russian ship that has to trespass the ukrain border has to ask for it.....

[amandabeech]

103. Do you have a link for that? n/t

[Winterraven]

104. Still its on german for now

http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/telegramm/news-ticker,templateId=renderIframeText,rendertext=5463656.html

[chatnoir]

107. Thanks for the link n/t.

[Winterraven]

110. next german page announces it....

http://de.rian.ru/postsowjetischen/20080813/116014088.html