Russia begins Georgia handover

[dipsydoodle]

Source: BBC News

Russian troops have begun handing over control of the area around the town of Gori to Georgian security forces.

But a Russian general in the area said Moscow's troops would remain nearby for several days to remove weaponry and help restore law and order in Gori.
>
The BBC's Gabriel Gatehouse, inside Gori, says Moscow insists that the purpose of its continuing presence in Georgia proper is to hand over security to the Georgian police and to remove abandoned weapons and ammunition.

Local residents reported feeling safe and secure on Wednesday night, our correspondent says, with Russian troops clearly in charge of the town.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7560100.stm

---

Note that the reporter is inside Gori as opposed to picking up hearday outside of the town. That at least may help prevent some of the Geoegian administration's fairy tales of the past few days.

Good to hear that the residents feel a bit safer again.

[DarthDem]

1. Thanks

Good post - - it IS really good to get some actual reporting, not just hearing things from the "perspective" of the maniac running Georgia. McSame's boy, that is.

[Dead_Parrot]

3. What you said

It's getting annoying, repeatedly reading about some startling turn for the worse then finding the magic words "...according to Georgian officials..." - meaning you have to waste ten minutes checking with an independent source, only to find out it's total bollocks.

[Ghost Dog]

2. Yes, thanks. Me, I recommend listening to BBC radio (forget the mostly unnecessary visuals)

eg. --> http://www.bbc.co.uk/go/newsifsbanner/int/-/mediaselector/check/worldservice/meta/tx/live_news?size=au&bgc=003399&lang=en-ws&nbram=1&nbwm=1;

[chatnoir]

4. Russia rejects west's call to recognise Georgian sovereignty

The US and the Europe today demanded that any settlement of the conflict in Georgia had to be based on recognition of the small Black Sea country's territorial integrity. But after overrunning Georgia in five days with troops, tanks, and bombers, Russia rejected the terms.

The EU unveiled a blueprint for ending the bloodshed in Georgia following several days of French-led shuttle diplomacy between Moscow and Tbilisi that resulted in a six-point plan underpinning a fragile ceasefire.

George Bush warned the Kremlin that it had to "keep its word and act to end this crisis."

But Russia refused to accept those terms, declined to acknowledge Georgian sovereignty over all of its recognised territory, and refused to have any reference to it in the six-point peace plan mediated by the French and agreed by both Moscow and Tbilisi.

<snip>

But Sergei Ivanov, Russia's deputy prime minister and former defence minister, repeatedly refused to recognize Georgian control over its territory.

"We recognise the sovereignty and independence of Georgia ... But territorial integrity, it's just another matter," he told BBC's Hardtalk. "South Ossetia and Abkhazia never were part of Georgia as an independent country."

More: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/13/georgia1

[dipsydoodle]

6. That link is from last night 7pm UK time

Maybe things have moved on. :shrug:

[chatnoir]

8. Things seem to change from hour to hour

Just noticed the time stamp - thanks.

Latest as of now from the Guardian
Thursday August 14 2008 12:30 BST

Georgia claims Russia sending more troops to Gori
Tbilisi says Kremlin dispatching more soldiers across border

Russia is expanding its military presence in Gori, the Georgian government said today, contradicting earlier claims they were pulling out of the key town where their presence had threatened the ceasefire over South Ossetia.

Georgia's foreign ministry also said the Russians had entered Poti, a Black Sea port with an oil terminal vital to the country's fragile economy.

Earlier, its interior ministry said Moscow forces had withdrawn from both.

More: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/aug/14/georgia.russia4

[14thColony]

17. I think it's the nuance of the wording as well

I think what Russia is saying is that since South Ossetia and Abkhazia are not and never were sovereign Georgian territory (at least in the views of Russia and those two enclaves), any discussion of Georgian territorial integrity that includes these two areas is null and void. No one has a right to territorial integrity with respect to territory that's not theirs. But this appears to be interpreted as "Russia is claiming it will do what it pleases anywhere inside Georgia." I do not belive that is the Russian position at all. At least in the LONG TERM - obviously in the midst of this conflict they are violating Georgian territorial integrity; but as I've said before, don't start a fight if you can't deal with the consequences.

[chelsea0011]

5. This is a good post. If you just watched CNN and MSM, it is pretty

near impossible to get and understand the full story(ies). Hell, I have had to spend hours here and on the internet to break down all the information and reach out beyond what the television is feeding me. And this is what makes CNN so infuriating. I can understand MSM and the nightly news being worthless. The story will get 7 minutes and five minutes will be Rice, Bush, and the administration spin. But CNN has all day to get the story and even with a reporter with the Russian army, I had a hard time getting the historical nature of the conflict.

[jayfish]

7. "Fairy Tales"?

http://www.newser.com/article/d92hihco0/georgia-says-russian-tanks-in-gori-violate-truce.html

Georgian officials said Gori, a central hub on Georgia's main east-west highway, was being looted and bombed by the Russians.

Moscow denied the claim, but it appeared to be on a technicality: a BBC reporter in Gori said Russian tanks were in the streets but it was Russia's South Ossetian allies who were seizing Georgian cars, looting Georgian homes and setting some homes ablaze.

Russia at first denied that tanks were even in Gori but video footage proved otherwise.

About 50 Russian tanks entered Gori in the morning, according to Lomaia. The city of 50,000 people lies 15 miles (25 kilometers) south of South Ossetia, where much of the fighting has taken place.

Russian deputy chief of General Staff Col.-Gen. Anatoly Nogovitsyn admitted that Russians went into Gori, but not in tanks. He said Russians were looking for Georgian officials to discuss the EU truce, but could not find any.

A Russian government official said Russian troops checked a Georgian military base near Gori and found abandoned weapons and ammunition, then moved the ordnance to a safe place.

An AP reporter saw dozens of trucks and armored vehicles leaving Gori, roaring southeast. Soldiers waved at journalists, and one soldier jokingly shouted to a photographer: "Come with us, beauty, we're going to Tbilisi!"

Yup "fairy tales". Keep siding with the Russians though. That'll show Bush!

Jay

[dipsydoodle]

9. If you check the date and time on link

you'll find that' 24 hours old and as such pretty meaningless.

We've been plagued all week by the lies spewing forth from the Georgian administration. Hence my reference to fairy tales - SFA to do with supporting Russia.

[jayfish]

10. Well, If You're Calling The Georgians Liars Then...

that means you believe that mother Russia is telling the truth. The link I posted is confirmation of one of the items that everyone is calling Georgia on. I listed to an NPR story on the way home form work yesterday that featured a voice report from a correspondent in Gori. He also verified the claims.

Jay

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

11. They could both be lying.

:think:

[dipsydoodle]

12. The Georgians have confirmed themselves

to be somewhat economic with the truth thoughout the past week. Many posts on DU refer to that exact subject with appropropriate links which I'll leave you to find but see here for a gross exageration.

TBILISI (Reuters) - President George W. Bush's pledge to send aid to Georgia means that the U.S. military will take control of the ex-Soviet state's ports and airports, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili said on Wednesday.

"You have heard the statement by the U.S. president that the United States is starting a military-humanitarian operation in Georgia," Saakashvili said in a television address.

"It means that Georgian ports and airports will be taken under the control of the U.S. defense ministry in order to conduct humanitarian and other missions. This is a very important statement for easing tension."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3437425

The USA had said nothing of the sort regarding taking control of the sea and airports. He just made that bit up.

Maybe the other person to whom you refer also caused this issue at Reuters.
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LB156487.htm

[jayfish]

13. Wait, Aren't You Shunning Links People Are Posting...

that are 12-24 hrs old? Yet you post one that's 72hrs old? Can we agree with RUMMYisFROSTED that both sides are stretching the truth here?

Maybe this was a lie: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/europe/2008/08/200881282217682257.html
Maybe this: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3582646,00.html
Maybe this: http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1424033.php/Security_situation_in_Gori_Georgia_not_even_close_to_calm__Feature_
Maybe this: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/2e879404-68ce-11dd-a4e5-0000779fd18c.html?nclick_check=1

Jay

[dipsydoodle]

14. Shouldn't you have posted those elsewhere

to get better attention. :shrug:

The issue between us wasn't todays news : it's the inability of the Georgians to actually tell undistorted truth. Nuff said - end of converstaion.

[jayfish]

16. Umm, I'm Sorry, You Don't Get To Dictate The Terms Of Discussion.

I'm not looking for attention. I didn't have these stories canned and ready to go to foment a propaganda war. It took me all of five minutes to find them from your post to mine. All of those stories feature reports from disparate sources on the ground in Gori. All of them contradict Russian assertions. Yet, according to you, Georgia is the only party required to tell "undistorted truth".

Unreal!

Jay

[14thColony]

20. I think this one is called

The Fallacy of False Dichotomy. "If Georgians are liars then Russians must be honest" implies there are no other possible options. In fact there are many, the most obvious of which is "Georgians and Russians are both lying."

[jayfish]

22. Correct.

But that's not what was being presented here.

Jay

[maddezmom]

15. AnonymousUS official: Russia damaging Georgian airfields

US official: Russia damaging Georgian airfields
8/14/2008, 9:09 a.m. EDT
By ANNE GEARAN and MATTHEW LEE
The Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) — Russia apparently is sabotaging airfields and other military infrastructure in Georgia as its forces pull back, in a deliberate attempt to cripple the already battered, U.S.-trained Georgian military, a U.S. official said Thursday.

Reports from Georgia indicate that Russian forces are doing what they can to disable Georgia's ability to fight a future conflict, the official said. The official spoke on condition of anonymity to describe incomplete but apparently convincing eyewitness accounts.

Explosions were heard near Gori on Thursday as a Russian troop withdrawal from the strategic city seemed to collapse. A fragile cease-fire appeared even more shaky as Russia's foreign minister declared that the world "can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity."

more:http://www.mlive.com/newsflash/index.ssf?/base/politics-11/1218717570240680.xml&storylist=washington

[dipsydoodle]

18. Beginning to sound

like the invasion of Iraq by the USA.

[Regret My New Name]

21. Yet it's still defended by so many who I'd think would know better...

but ehnn... Damn those annoying principles.

[14thColony]

19. Great Power Political Reality 101

Great Powers have never tolerated hostile minor states in their immediate zone of influence. Monroe Doctrine and coups in Central American countries being great examples. You can be neutral or friendly; hostile is not an option. I think Georgia is getting a lesson in why you shouldn't piss off the local Great Power. Destroying all their military bases, wrecking their 'navy' and military airfields, etc. is an object lesson for not only Georgia, but also Ukraine and some others. If this was a full-on invasion there would be a Russian flag over T'bilisi right now and nothing left of the Georgian military to hand security back over to. The statement from the US spokesperson that 'Russian tried to roll over Georgia and failed' is laughable. Russia swatted Georgia's butt and told them to knock it off. They didn't even use a paddle. All-in-all this has been a surprisingly measured response by Russia, but they have to be careful not to let their minions get out of control now.

I'm no apologist for Russia, but it's hard see how Georgia thought they were going to get away with this with zero repercussions. Saakashvili had better find a scapegoat quick. Once the nationalistic fervor dies down the Georgians are going to start looking for a head to adorn that platter.

[Cousin It]

24. Fair enough

That's a pretty fair assessment 14th.

But fundamentally the Russians crossed a border and the Georgians didn't - and for the sake of stability the Russians need to know that kind of conduct by a state that sees itself as the regional superpower and a G8 nation isn't on.

Of course they don't like it that their former client states are all looking west to the EU and the States for their future. But until Russia offers them something more attractive than the threat of invasion they'll carry on doing just that.

Not nice for Moscow that Nato extends right up to their front door, but they may have to live with, or join it.

In the end Putin would likely settle for pulling back on the proviso that the 2 disputed territories get independence elections.

The Georgian pm is getting heat here for his comment about the US taking control of ports etc and being roundly called a liar. This misses the point - he's being more honest than Bush would want him to be. The whole point of the aid offer is that it means, by implication, that the US will control the skies, roads and territorial waters because they'll want safe passage and will protect the operation. On the face of it thats just to ensure the safe delivery of aid and the people delivering it, but in reality it means American boots on the ground, eyes and guns in the sky if need be, and the coast secure. And pause for thought where Putin is concerned.

The Russians know they shouldn't be in Georgia, and if they dent any of your people in the process there'll be hell to pay.

[14thColony]

27. Likewise for you part.

Also a very realistic assessment.

Yes, the Russians crossed an international border, although that's caveated that South Ossetia--always an autonomous region in the Soviet days that just happened to be surrounded on three sides by Georgia (think Lichtenstein)--has never recognized Georgian sovereignty, and was invaded and subjected to Georgian 'ethnic cleansing' in 1991. Sure, the Russians were chomping at the bit to come to the rescue, but in the end they really were coming to the rescue against a Georgian attack that also killed 27 Russian peacekeepers (there with the agreement of Georgia) when Georgian artillery targeted their base.

I agree 100 percent that Russia will not be interested in independence for Abkhazia or S Ossetia; the last thing they need is a precedent like that when they're dealing with Chechen separatists and God knows how many other enclaves that would like to be micro-states. Plus if they encourage this then how do they bust the West's chops for allowing independence for Kosovo?

I hope we won't spread out in Georgia as far as you say, although we already had ~200 uniformed military trainers in T'bilisi when this started. That would stretch Russian tolerance to the limit, and at this point in history they are immune to most things we could do to them. It could start to spiral out of control. Personnally I think best to stay out of Russia's back yard; we wouldn't appreciate them in ours. Great Power etiquette is being violated, and at everyone's peril.

By the way I think you and I live in the same country if your flag is any indication.

[Cousin It]

30. Yep....

....I'm in Yorkshire. And you ?

In all honesty I don't think the US can be criticised for the way it's been handled so far.

Granted the Russians don't like the way it's panned out over recent years with neighbouring states turning away from them, but in the end I think they have to accept thats one of the prices of losing the cold war. What else, realistically, was going to happen ?

It isn't realistic either to expect the Russians to conduct their affairs in some modern western european fashion - that's not the place they're at, at least not yet and not for a good while.

They've clearly been given carte blanche by Bush to do as they see fit in Chechnya, Bush sees that as part of the WoT. But the Georgians represent no real threat to Russia, and wading over borders in energy sensitive areas is plain irresponsible. even more so if the reports that Human Rights Watch are producing are true, ie the Russian claims of thousands of South Ossetians dead, of ethnic cleansing, are in fact horseshit.

Putin knew full and well that Bush had stood in front of a crowd in Tblisi and promised the people America would stand with them. I'd be very surprised if the US left the Georgians to their fate. bush doesn't need to worry about his popularity, and theres a good chance mcCain will benefit from a confrontation, provided a lid is kept on it.

[14thColony]

35. Agreed

"Putin knew full and well that Bush had stood in front of a crowd in Tblisi and promised the people America would stand with them."

Precisely why I think Putin was looking for a way to get at Saakashvili. Teach him a lesson. For Putin I think this is more personal than it should be. Russia could have handled this far better, even if they did intervene. They seem to willfully avoid positive PR which they must be smart enough to figure out how to generate. Hell, just hire a major Washington PR firm. But as you say they can't be expected to act like a typical western nation, because they're not.

I also don't think we'll leave them to their fate, and I agree McCain stands to gain.

I'm in Cambridgeshire.

[Cousin It]

36. Cambridgeshire.....

....eh ?

Apparently they're building 3 million new houses on your street 'cos we're "beyond regeneration" up here !

A Washington PR firm ? Hell, there are one man band pr firms operating above fish and chip shops in Barnsley that could have handled this better than the Russians have. The Georgian pm seems to have a knack for the camera though, a Tony Blair for the breakaway states !

Sarkozy risks making a fool of himself. I credit Blair with actually being very good at the shuttle diplomacy and media thing when at his best, but still getting the detail right. But Sarkozy is just playing Blairs old role, its been a deliberate strategy of his to do that from the outset of his Presidency imo, and I suspect is giving more away to the Russians than Washington wants. Sure he's getting on camera, but a negotiator he is not.

There is clearly a problem to be resolved, and it's hard to see how this doesn't end in elections in the 2 regions. The Georgian pm is going to be under huge pressure to survive losing territory, and needs throwing a line from Bush that he can call a victory (an open door to Nato maybe, but Bush is gone soon, certain EU states would baulk, and Putin would have to resist or lose face) Medium term he also needs Obamas support as well as McCains. As has been suggested elsewhere I think the upcoming US election probably figured in his timing of the clampdown on the separatists.

[14thColony]

37. The more I hear Shaakashvili speak...

the more the word 'delusional' comes to mind. He's just talking crazy now.

Interesting editorial from Michael Binyon at The Times:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/guest_contributors/article4525885.ece

Not sure it was quite the home run for Russia that he makes out, but the salient points are there.

Yes, Cambs and Beds are on a house-building spree, although not all councils are thrilled with the idea.

[Igel]

26. Yes.

Finlandization by another name.

[amandabeech]

23. I'll believe it once the Russians and their friends have retreated into

the rebellious areas, and the Georgians say that it is true.

[Cousin It]

25. Exactly....

....well said.

[amandabeech]

28. Thanks for not jerking your knee. n/t

[jayfish]

29. Doesn't Look Like It's Gonna Happen Anytime Soon.

...all those pesky recon missions. With BMP-2's of course.

Jay

[pampango]

31. Looks like the handover was just temporary for now.

"In Georgia on Thursday, Russian forces briefly allowed Georgian police to return to the city of Gori as Russian troops appeared to prepare to pull out. But joint patrols were canceled three hours later and the city returned to full Russian control.

In a further sign that Russian forces remained in control of key parts of Georgian territory, Russian tanks conducted maneuvers in the city of Poti, a Black Sea port to the west.

Russia’s president, Dmitri A. Medvedev, held a televised meeting with the leaders of the two breakaway regions, South Ossetia and Abkhazia, and pledged that Russia would provide whatever they needed to secede lawfully from Georgia.

At the Kremlin meeting with leaders of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, Mr. Medvedev said Russia would back their aspirations as long they complied with the United Nations charter and other principles of international law. It is unclear whether the two regions want full independence, a formal alliance with Russia or full integration with Russia."

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/15/world/europe/15georgia.html?_r=1&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss&oref=slogin

[Karenina]

32. OOPS! Two pawns threatening a knight!

:popcorn:

[Cousin It]

34. Maybe.....

....I'm stupid, but could you explain ?

I'm guessing the Russians are the knights in your analogy, and the Georgians are one of the pawns. And that'd be pretty accurate.

But if the other pawn is the US then I think your way wrong.

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v4.1
==================



This week is our third quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!