Canada says Russia showing "Soviet-era mentality"

[sabra]

Source: Reuters

OTTAWA, Aug 14 (Reuters) - Russia's military intrusion into parts of Georgia reflects a "Soviet-era mentality" that is deeply troubling, Canada's Prime Minister Stephen Harper said on Thursday as he urged Moscow to withdraw.

"I am deeply troubled by a notion I see developing in Russia ... that Russia somehow has a say or some control over countries outside of its borders. In my judgment this is a very worrisome development," Harper told reporters at an event in Newfoundland.

"It really indicates a Soviet-era mentality and I think it is something that all democratic countries should speak out strongly against and I hope Russia will reconsider its actions," Harper said.

Read more: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N14463643.htm

[LynnTheDem]

1. Harper. Gee, there's someone to listen to.

NOT.

[Captain Hilts]

5. It's almost as if he's a stupid version of Prez Bush. nt

[bemildred]

2. Good doggie, have a biscuit. nt

[TrogL]

3. That's a VERY interesting position for a Dubya sock-puppet to take

Especially since Canada may need to cosy up to Russia if Dubya/McCain starts sabre rattling over Canadian water or access to the Northwest route.

[JeanGrey]

4. I am constantly amazed that anyone thought Russia was going

to turn into some wonderful, democratic country.

[RaleighNCDUer]

7. There was a window of opportunity -

but our brilliant economic gurus insisted that they privatize EVERYTHING in order to get usurious loans from the west, which did nothing but put criminals in power.

It was by our insistence that they moved from communism to fascism, with only a rude gesture at liberal democracy on the way past.

[JeanGrey]

17. But of course. Everything is our fault.

[RaleighNCDUer]

18. It's just our way of doing things.

Just as with Afghanistan, when the Russians were kicked out they were begging for our help - we ignored them and got the Taliban. In Iraq, we slapped down Saddam and urged his people to revolt - when they actually did revolt we ignored them and hundreds of thousands died.

Ever hear of 'an ounce of prevention'? For minimal cost we could have supported real democratic institutions in Russia, but instead we pushed lassaiz faire ideals and let the mafia and KGB take over. Now, most Russians look back fondly at the imagined stability of the soviet days - short memories are turning those times into a golden age when Russia was a respected world power, competitive in all ways with the western world and its downfall was the result of predatory capitalism. It makes going back to communism or to fascism - anything with a command economy - look good.

And yes, it is OUR fault - we could have prevented it.

[Igel]

20. Let's not make Putin look humble and contrite.

No, it was not our fault. We couldn't have prevented it.

We might have made it slightly less likely, but "preventing" means we're responsible for it: We had the ability to go in and change the thinking of 180 million people in another country, redesign their culture, their society, their governmental institutions, whether or not they wanted it, whether or not they were going to cooperate.

Institutions have to be rooted in what people want. You don't change the thinking of that many people in a decade. You want a paradigm shift, you get to wait a generation or two, maybe three.

Already in the late '80s Russians were looking back fondly to previous times--when Russia was strong, powerful, the minorities were in their places instead of griping. By 1991 the period of zastoi was considered good, and many were outraged at state secrets--plane crashes, suicide stats--appearing in the newspapers. The info made public under glasnost' was received enthusiastically by the West--making many Russians think it should never have been published. It made them feel less proud, more humiliated.

There's a dichotomy of thought that needs to be understood. The first kind points to internal causes in Soviet economic collapse (Gaidar, a notorious liberal, is one such writer): The American left likes to look at those, because it means Reagan wasn't important (the American right isn't far off, but thinks Reagan pushed a rickety system that might have been saved). Russians hate looking at internal causes, on the whole, because it means they're at fault. WWII's effects on Russia were a combination of bad luck, Hitler's military might, and Stalin's incompetence; for many Russians, the West was in bed with Hitler, and only when he failed to destroy the mighty Russian state as we hoped he would did we decide to punish him and keep Russia from claiming even more of Europe. We've always liked trying to understand some of the atrocities in the USSR, and why they happened; most Russians prefer to ignore them, they're Western myths to undermine Russian greatness. Some in the West talked of having some sort of investigation--punishing those who did wrong and kept power. Russians hardly ever did; only the dead could be blamed, and after dismissing the numbers what was left could be seen as mistakes, "excesses". We get bent out of shape over Watergate; for most Russians, 10 million dead in the Ukraine is an "excess".

So, at what point after 1985 and before 1989 should we have been reinforcing democratic institutions in Russia? Would Gorbachev and the Supreme Soviet have gone for it? Zjuganov's thinking was popular--even if he wasn't--by '93 and '94. So we "lost" Russia by then. That gave us what? A two-year window of opportunity to reeducate 180 million people? Us and what army?

You can look at how many dissident and anti-Soviet, anti-Stalin books were written and published. Usually with low press runs, but not all (sometimes they were just sensationalist enough to sell, but had little effect). More Russians prefer to read Suvorov and Bushkov, about how the West was responsible for the USSR's economic collapse, for Hitler, for all the bad things Stalin was forced into; for Russia's humiliation. They often fantasize about crushing the West and revenging their humiliation, and those books outsell the "good" stuff by far--they make 1950s anti-Soviet crap-literature seem elegant and sophisticated, tolerant and even-handed. They also never get translated, and aren't mentioned in serious conversation.

I reject claiming omnipotence for myself or my country. Since I'm not, and I know my country isn't, to assume otherwise is a betrayal of reality, and lacks a certain je ne sais quoi. Pokornost', perhaps?

[amandabeech]

23. Great post. Thanks. n/t

[theboss]

32. Wonderful post

Anyone who has studied Russia or spent any time there learns fairly quickly that being "Russian" is simply different than being American or British or whatever the case may be.

Even if there was some magical formula that the West could have given them for turning a totalitarian communist state into, like, Norway, they weren't going to accept it.

[Regret My New Name]

36. Wait... So does that mean most of those posts on the pravda forums are real???

:P

*interesting post by the way...

[Cousin It]

26. No way

Japan and Germany only got rescued after they got destroyed. You (the US) had crippled them, and their only sensible way out was to follow your lead and take gratefully the massive aid that was offered. The Japanese have done amazingly well to retain their culture, completely change direction and grow their economy at the same time. Likewise the Germans, but they were open to US culture anyway.

The Russians haven't been beaten down nearly so much. They've had economic pressure but not a total collapse. They had massive energy/mineral wealth that was always going to fill up the coffers. Their military is not so well funded as it was before, but then the funding was why they couldn't feed themselves. Its no match for US technology but noboby on earth could give you a better fight. Only their previous ideology has taken a beating.

So they've no need, and no desire to be conducted from Washington, to kow tow and I don't see what you could have done to support their step change any more than you did without it being interfering. The mafia (previously known as the one party state) and the KGB were in charge before, and are in charge now, uber capitalism replacing the old model.

I don't know how much time you've spent in former communist bloc states but from what I've experienced the regular people you meet in bars and shops and hotels aren't nostalgic for the old times.

You've said you ignored the Afghans and they got the Taleban, and you're right. It's the best reason to stand by the Georgians.

[theboss]

34. Russians are nostalgic for Communism necessarily

They are nostalgic for the days of being a world power.

One thing that stands out in these Olympics is that this used to be the Soviet Unions time to shine. They would send these incredibly powerful, incredibly disciplined young men and women into this cauldron and dominate. Now, they lose to the likes of Italy.

There is a Russian psyche and it is fragile. And Putin understands that better than anyone.

(I should add that what the Russians are not is "desperate." This is not Germany in the 1920s. There is a stable government. There is some wealth coming in. There is a strong military. There is no overt humiliation. So, I don't think that tanks will be rolling into Poland next week. But there is a large undercurrent of "We are still here. We are still strong. You will respect us.")

[Liberal Gramma]

6. We set the precedent

They are merely following it. Invasion of sovereign nations is on the table if you're a Bush.

[AlphaCentauri]

10. That's true, we are setting the rules. We side with evil Saddam against democratic Iran

We side with the undemocratic Kuwait against the evil Saddam.

We side with undemocratic dictator pinochet against the democratic elected president of chile.

Conclusion we fight for capitalism not for democracy.

[Andy Canuck]

8. There is going to be an election soon.

Probably around the time of the US Presidential election. Hopefully we sweep him and the conservatives out as cleanly as Obama and the Democrats will of the Republicans.

[Bragi]

9. Harper supported Bush in Iraq

So harper thinks it wrong that Russia somehow has a say or some control over countries outside of its borders.

This guy had no problem with Bush invading a country 6000 miles away, but he is alarmed that Russia is interfering in a country on its own border. Great consistency there.

[AZ Criminal JD]

11. ahhh, How is his position different than Obama's ?

[Spazito]

12. Hmmm, I see Harper received his talking points from the WH already....

gee, what a surprise, NOT. Harper is barely the PM (no majority government) and not for much longer, thank goodness.

[14thColony]

13. My question for Prime Minister Harper is...

what would have happened if Russia had done nothing when Georgia launched a rocket and artillery barrage followed by a full-scale attack on South Ossetia?

My guess: thousands of South Ossetians slaughtered while the world wrung its collective hands and tried to figure out a way to justify Georgia's actions, or better yet bury the story while Georgia buried the Ossetians.

Yes, Russia is in it for itself. No, Russia is not known for international philanthropy. Yes, Russia is an autocracy that mansquerades as a democracy, but dammit Georgia ATTACKED the South Ossetians in violation of a peace accord Saakashvili had just signed, and they attacked indiscriminately with artillery and rockets, then troops. Russia's actions were for its own self-interest, but as a result of their actions hundreds if not thousands of South Ossetians are still alive. No aggressor should EVER get a free pass just for being a democracy.

[AntiFascist]

27. How "democratically" was South Ossetia being treated?

I think we have a lot more to learn about their politics with Georgia, and the dispute sounds like it goes back way before even the Soviet Union. It sounds somewhat similar to Iraq. It is difficult to force a united nation on peoples with deeply ingrained divisions.

[David__77]

14. Why don't the Liberals, BQ, and NDP get rid of him?

I don't understand it.

[Doctor Cynic]

19. They had a million chances to.

The Liberals chickened out ever time because they weren't ready.

Now it looks like they have prepared.

[Canuckistanian]

29. The BQ and NDP would LOVE to get rid of him

The problem is that the Liberals are too chickenshit to actually pull the plug on them and call for an election.

[Regret My New Name]

15. Harper and everyone else needs to leave Russia alone and mind their own business...

I hope Russia invades Iraq next. Now that is an Iraqi invasion I can support. Go Russia!!!!


Not really though, just making a point...

Fact is that if the US did the exact same thing for the exact same reasoning, then I would not simply accept it and tell the world to mind their own business... Of course that is just me, *some* may a slidable right & and wrong scale thing depending on whom is involved... Of course this applies to the other side too. You know, those who pretend to be appalled by this, yet seemly see the Iraq invasion as being perfectly ok... I seriously don't understand how most people think.

[SpikeTss]

16. There was an interesting article about Canada's military engagements

And I'd like to share it. It's highly interesting:

http://www.zmag.org/znet/viewArticle/17296

There are probably still a few people among the hardcore supporters of Canada's war in Afghanistan who believe we're there to restore peace, create democracy, and help women go to school. Yet among opponents, whose numbers are growing, the most common analysis is that we're there to please the U.S. and to atone for the fact that Canada did not send troops to Iraq - complaints often rooted in a lament for a romanticized Canada, the "honest broker," the "peacekeeping" nation.

...

For those who are troubled by the increasing militarization of Canadian society, ending Canada's occupation of Afghanistan is only the beginning of the story. Yes, as the war grows more unpopular, Canada will likely withdraw its troops from active combat, and it may happen sooner than we think, though it will probably be the success of the Taliban's roadside bombs, not public opinion, that will bring an end to Canada's mission in Afghanistan. Yet unless we can unravel the increasing interdependency between military exporters and the public sphere in this country, we will have achieved only a temporary respite from the many more Afghanistans that will certainly follow.

[Spazito]

22. Yes, it is an interesting article and makes some very key points...

The change from a peacekeeping/security mission to one of combat was made during the Liberal government as was the appointment of the war monger, Hillier, to the top post. The fauxcons now in government have towed the neocon line ever since.

The Liberals can't get their shit together because they cannot admit they made a big, repeat BIG, mistake in their decision to change the mission and so any opposition the Libs try is so milquetoast as to be worse than useless, imo.

This post is coming from a Liberal supporter NOT someone who supports the NDP (the party that is now all about their Leader instead of what used to be the grassroots issues).

I WILL vote Liberal again but with much less enthusiasm than I did before. They are still much better than the fauxcon neocon wannabes.

[fedsron2us]

21. What Putin is about to revive Marxist-Leninism ?

It may be comforting for some politicians and the media to retread their old Cold War shibboleths but it does not necessarily make them relevant. Recent events have more echoes of the world of the great powers pre 1914 rather than than post 1945.

[amandabeech]

24. The Russian Navy recently claimed the North Pole and its oil and gas for Russia

by dropping a Russian flag onto what the Russians believe is a continuation of their continental shelf.

The Canadians are pissed, as are we.

If the Russians get rought in the Arctic, the Canadians will probably look to us for help. They're not going to diss what we do here if they themselves might need some subs in the future.

We and the Candians should get a joint design for military ice-breakers going. *sarcasm*

[theboss]

35. I forgot about that

That's an important point.

[cobalt1999]

25. Of course it's the same mentality

The government is run by all ex-Soviet officials. No surprise they think the same way they used to.

[Posteritatis]

30. I don't get why that's such an astonishing concept to some people (nt)

[JVS]

28. So what are Canadian troops doing in Afghanistan?

[melm00se]

31. he is not the far off

The Russian/Soviet invasion of Georgia happened before: Feb/Mar 1921.

This was a post revolutionary military action by the Soviets to re-integrate the breakaway Republic of Georgia (sound familiar?) as part of the return of Imperial Russian territories (who broke away post-revolution) to Soviet control.

you know the quote: "Those Who Forget History Are Doomed to Repeat It"?

it may have application here.

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

==================
GROVELBOT.EXE v4.1
==================



This week is our third quarter 2008 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!