Russia "seizes U.S. weapons" near Georgian town

[laststeamtrain]

Source: Reuters

Russia "seizes U.S. weapons" near Georgian town
15 Aug 2008 09:27:23 GMT
Source: Reuters
MOSCOW, Aug 15 (Reuters) - Russia said on Friday its forces had seized U.S.-made weapons from a Georgian military base near the town of Senaki, but added there had been no gunfire in Georgia in the past 24 hours.

"Our forces have seized 1,728 arms in Senaki," Colonel-General Anatoly Nogovitsyn, deputy head of Russia's General Staff, told a news conference.

Nogovitsyn expressed fresh doubts about the nature of U.S. cargo being dispatched to Georgia. "We would like to know whether there is a humanitarian or some other kind of military cargo, but we don't have this information." (Reporting by Dmitry Zhdannikov and Conor Sweeney)

Read more: http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/LF670080.htm

[DRoseDARs]

1. And Russian weapons can be found everywhere. What's your point Nogovitsyn?

Seriously, can we stop the ride? I'd like to get off now.

[sourmilk]

9. I think that his point is:

Without the excessive number of US weapons sold to Georgia (military-build up from a budget of $50 million to $1 billion over the last 5 years), Georgia would not have had the temerity to attack South Ossetian pro-Russian dissidents stirring up shit last week, and all of this could have been avoided.

He's probably correct, too. Still, deflection of blame to Western Nations has long been a Russian staple in terms of detente, so how seriously can you take it? The propaganda value of this kind of statement is rather obvious, as well as effective, though.

[Skink]

29. Atleast we still make something.

[maxrandb]

11. I think one point is

that Russia is learning to play our game. To the Russians, we are to Georgia what Iran is to Iraqi insurgents.

Let's call the whole thing off.

[pampango]

2. Who knows how this will all end, but I wouldn't be surprised if Georgia

didn't get a boatload of new weapons from the US and NATO to replace all those that the Russians are taking or destroying. The Russians may inadvertently be helping Georgia to modernize its military in the long run.

[cstanleytech]

3. Which is their own stupid fault really.

Invading georgia was stupid of them to do, all it will end up doing I suspect is isolate russia some more and its a step back for russia from the direction they had been heading which hopefully would have made them a respected superpower again, now they appear little more than a bully to alot of people.

[atreides1]

6. "...now they appear little more than a bully to alot of people."

You mean like the United States?

[pampango]

7. "You mean like the United States?"

Exactly, which is why I can't defend either invasion - ours of Iraq or theirs of Georgia.

[Oregone]

14. Maybe Russia really cared about the 2000 innocent people Georgia slaughtered

Heh, well, not really, but we shouldn't entirely forget about it.

This whole conflict is probably less about Ossentia and Georgia and more about Russia and the USA for some time now.

[theboss]

18. Russia does care about civilian casualties

Hahahahahahahahahahaha

Sorry. I almost made it.

[sourmilk]

15. I think it was strategically, a brilliant move, on their part.

The Russians have been waiting and preparing for this since 2006. They warned of this several times since the original January 19, 1992 independence referendum, and again after the November 12, 2006 referendum.

The failure of the international community to recognise the results of either referendum (as they did with Kosovo) forced them to wait for suitable provocation. They waited, rebuilt two railheads necessary for quick troop insertion, and when provocation was offered, they POUNCED. The Russians do this well.

Now, because of the conflict and allegations of Georgian complicity in genocide and 30,000 Russian passport holding South Ossetian refugees, there is no longer any need for international recognition of their independence. International and Georgian recognition of South Ossetian and Abkhazian independence will be an obvious condition of any cease-fire treaty Russia signs.

It also sends a strong message to other US-friendly former Soviet states like Kazakhstan and Azerbaizian. "You cannot rely on NATO or the USA to save your asses" if ANY military provocation is offered to Russia. Regime change for Georgia could be likely, too, right now. A no-confidence vote in Mikael Saakashvili's leadership would certainly be devastating, at present...

Russia is not afraid of being isolated, because they CANNOT BE isolated. They can veto any sanction scheme offered either in UNSC or UNGA, and Europe must become even more dependent upon Russian oil and gas, due to the BP shutdown and possible damage to the BTC pipeline. It's not that Russia has ever cared about loss of human life or UN condemnation (which will obviously not be forthcoming, anyhow, because of Georgia's provocation).

They have shown that they are a fast and efficient military machine, rather than a paper tiger, at the same time as consolidating their interests on their Southern Front. They get to humiliate the Georgians and embarrass the USA (forced to withdraw 1500 seemingly impotent soldiers, contractors and advisors) at the same time. They also have forced the USA into an unplanned shift of Georgian personnel in Iraq. They may have destroyed Georgian confidence in their own military COMPLETELY while destroying Georgian confidence in the USa at the same time. They have already sunk a good percentage of the Georgian Navy and effectively blockaded the country. Any humanitarian airlift is completely dependent upon their explicit agreement. They get to rid Georgia of millions of dollars of military hardware, sabotage vital Georgian defense, economic and communications infrastructure and reassure Russian allies (like Iran and Syria) of their military agility and might.

For Russia, this would seem to be a win-win-win-win-win situation...

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

21. I made a similar point yesterday...

here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3436902&mesg_id=3438508

Though I went further to speculate as to wether or not Russia might have actually provoked the conflict (they definitely have an incentive to do so before Georgia gets anywhere close to joining NATO.) On the other hand, that was before Georgia's nutjob-in-chief started ranting about how the US was going to take over their ports and military bases, so I'm kinda questioning his grasp of reality at this point.

[sourmilk]

22. I think we may have to consider the Saakashvili government as a casualty, at this point.

Russia may even manage to get enough leverage under the USA to keep missiles out of Poland/Ukraine in return for getting Russian armour out of Georgia, proper.

This may have been one of the items they were looking for, to begin with.

They are hard negotiators, this is known.

[14thColony]

16. Russia supplies one-quarter of Europe's oil and one half of its natural gas

Europe needs Russia far more than Russia needs Europe; Russia needs the US even less. Russia is in the driver's seat and Putin and Medvedev know it. Invading Georgia was only stupid if they didn't meet their national objectives. I can't think of one national objective they failed to meet.

- Russia has called NATO's and the US's bluff - when it comes to their 'allies' in Russia's sphere, Russia has shown that NATO and the US will not do a whole lot beyond talk.

- Russia's action has served to intimidate countries in its immediate sphere of influence, whether they admit it or not; reinforced by point 1 above. Expect neutrality to become the new political alignment of choice, which is what Russia wants (not applicable to the Baltic states, but think more Central Asia - a place the west doesn't think about much)

- Russia has shown that it will use force to protect its interests - as Russia defines them; Georgia was as much about a signal to Ukraine, the Baltic States, Poland, and the Czech Republic as it was anything about Georgia per se.

- Russia has, without saying a word, made it clear the strategic advantage they hold as an energy exporter; I imagine every European country is couching its public statements right now based on how much energy they need from Russia.

Russia is coming back, and coming back fast. They are making it clear they will not be ignored any more. We need a foreign policy that serves to accomodate this and moderate them instead of continuing the course of action started in 1992. That course of action only works if the guy you knocked down stays down. Russia not only got up off the mat, they came up with a shotgun and an attitude.

[theboss]

19. Pretty good summary

And this is why I think the US needs to make a few bold moves towards Russia. And which is why I agree with the agreement with Poland.

Russia did this to send a message. It's like the neighborhood tough guy returning from prison and beating someone up. It's an announcement of "We're back."

If there is no response, they will just keep moving forwards.

[14thColony]

24. Obviously Poland is sovereign and can do what it wants

But Russia will have a counter-move already worked out. Probably more than one. A demonstration of Poland's energy dependence on Russia will probably be coming, say right about the time winter sets in...

As over-used as this word is, I think ultimately Russia wants respect. And unlike in personal relations where respect is earned, in Great Power politics it really is given. We may have hated the Soviet Union but we had a healthy respect for them, if only because they could annihilate us. Russia has energy AND military might, and they will not allow the current lack of respect (as they perceive it) to continue.

[daleo]

25. What moves do you suggest?

An invasion? An air war? A naval blockade? All would be exceedingly difficult, if not disastrous.

Arm their "restive populations"? They could supply stingers (or the equivalent) to Iran and Afghanistan insurgencies.

Go nuclear? Obviously not a workable scheme.

I suppose we could kick some of the Russian capitalists out of the best clubs in New York and London.

[amandabeech]

28. You use the word "[w]e," in your sentence, "We need a foreign policy . . . ."

Your personal info says that you are UK, and your avatar suggests it.

Did you mean to say that the UK and the US need a united foreign policy?

If McCain wins and Brown stays in power, I don't see it.

Just curious.

[14thColony]

30. American living in the UK

I've lived in Europe or the UK on and off since 1993.

The 'we' I was thinking of was the US, but US/UK or better yet US/EU would be great.

I doubt Brown has a chance of staying around. New Labour is as popular as rabies right now.

[amandabeech]

31. Perhaps both the US and the UK will have new leadership soon.

It would be great for the Western group of countries to agree on and put up united policies in the international arena.

I do think that liberal democracy of some sort seems to work out best as a means of political organization. Imperfect? Certainly. But . . . the best thing going right now.

[14thColony]

35. As Winston Churchill said

"Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others..."

He shared your sentiments exactly.

[amandabeech]

37. When I wrote that I was thinking that some had said something like what I was writing.

Thanks for replying with the real quote!

[stillcool]

26. Asia Times has a good..

story about that 'isolation' thing...

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page.html
The bear is back
By Richard M Bennett

Despite being rather moth-eaten and while still missing a claw or two, the Russian bear is definitely back in business.

The conflict with Georgia over its troublesome breakaway provinces has as much to do with nationalistic pride and the Kremlin's wish to reassert itself on the international scene as a determination to protect the predominately Russian citizens of South Ossetia or the determinedly independent-minded Abkhazians.

Despite constant assertions by Washington that Russia risks isolation for its military actions of the past week, it is arguable that it is United States itself that faces the greatest dilemma.

To enforce any form of diplomatic or economic "punishment" on the Russians, Washington desperately needs the wholehearted support of the international community and its closest allies in particular.

For a variety of reasons, this might not be forthcoming.
-------------------------------------------------------
India and China may well be loath to support Washington, particularly as both nations would wish to keep a free hand in dealing with areas such as Kashmir or Tibet. While not directly comparable, both these long-running problems are similar enough in that the protection of the lives and rights of their citizens may require military action at any time.

It cannot be seriously denied that Washington itself also desperately needs Russian cooperation in the "war on terror" and to be "on side" over the Middle East and Iran in particular.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Central_Asia/JH16Ag01.html

[pokercat999]

4. Of course, we (American middle class taxpayers) pay

for those weapons and Colt, Remington, Winchester, US Arms etc profit. The only people not happy are the people being slaughtered, some for wanting to live under a different system and some for being in the wrong place at the wrong time but they're all just as dead. Russia, happy they get to flex those old unused military muscles, the US very happy we get another war to distract us from our problems at home and in Iraq and the industrial/military complex makes more and more profit.

[pampango]

5. All very true.

My point was that in a few years Georgia may be thanking Russia (silently, of course)(and the American tax payer) for this invasion. And Russians, unless they can achieve a Georgian government that is more pro-Russian may be trying to figure our which politician or general to blame for this fiasco.

[Arctic Dave]

12. Just when the MIC was going to have to go on a diet

along comes another "incident" to keep their pig trough full.

[muriel_volestrangler]

8. They could easily use the verb 'looted' there

Or 'pilaged'. The Russians have come, armed, into another country, and taken weapons that are properly stored in a country's military base. If they were at the base, it's not as if they were even being used against the Russians.

I'm astounded that the Russians announced this. Yeah, looting goes on all the time in wars, but rarely is it a matter of pride. I suppose they're just showing off that they really have control of a large part of Georgia, and can do whatever they like, with impunity.

[sourmilk]

10. Enemy armaments seizures are not normally thought of as "looting."

Every single army in an enemy zone has ALWAYS adopted this strategy regularly, simply as a matter of common sense.

You would have to be a complete suicidal moron NOT to do this. It's one of the most important acts in properly securing any forward position.

If your enemy does not have access to weapons caches, it makes it a little more difficult for them to attack you...

Are NATO and US Armed Forces engaged in weapons interdiction assignments in Iraq and Afghanistan to be considered "looters," too?

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. There's meant to be a ceasefire on, though

they're not meant to be at war with Georgia right now.

[sourmilk]

17. Every army secures military assets within its sphere AUTOMATICALLY.

A ceasfire is a perfect time to complete this vital and necessary task. Seriously - it is done ALL THE TIME. As a Western commander, if you didn't do this, you would probably be court martialed. As a Russian, you would quite likely qualify for the "Lead Medal," as it is known.

[Takoia]

27. the arms were seized in a quite different region than a confilct zone

Sure, one can get "war trophy" as one of the russian generals announced on TV from maybe a conflict zone, but Senaki was not a conflict zone at all. Maybe I should put up a Georgian map sometimes.
If you knew Russian I would suggest you to check http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxLM7ua6LGQ&feature=related . It shows how drunk Russian soldiers are examining military base in Senaki and are impressed by the conditions there and how one of them tries the shoes found there. I can provide detailed translation if anyone wishes to see.
And what about stealing stuff from abandoned houses? Here you can see how one of the soldiers has a fork (yes, FORK) in his pocket :)).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB_f_Ew1wfY&feature=related;
I don't think one can call it anything else but looting.

[ohio2007]

39. Russia can't control the technology tools used by citizen journalist

Russia can only control their state media. And maybe some internet blocks.

[Scurrilous]

20. The Russian army loves its NATO loot

<snip>

"The troopers of Russia's 58th Army, fresh from chasing their US-trained Georgian opponents out of South Ossetia, are just in love with their NATO-issue loot.

'Check out this war trophy,' a T-62 tank commander named Viktor proudly pointed out to a Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa reporter. 'A real NATO-standard bayonet!'

Russia's soldiers currently occupying the Gori district of northern Georgia - abandoned by the Georgian army without a shot - are festooned with personal military kit previously owned by their enemy Georgia, whose government is intent on joining the North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

Some soldiers, like Viktor, chose to obtain just a souvenir. One of the most popular formerly Georgian military items now in Russian hands is a spiffy black-handled knife.

Viktor's mates said the weapon, sometimes issued in a snappy leg holster, is suitable for locking onto a US M-16 automatic rifle sold to Georgia, and holds a great edge.

'There were piles of them in the depot over there,' said a sergeant name Oleg, pointing with his thumb to a plume of smoke rising from behind a hill. 'The Georgians just ran, they didn't even take their (expletive deleted) stuff with them.'

more

[AlphaCentauri]

23. Oh! Oh!!!! is someone making a civil militia there?

to keep the russian busy?

[sattahipdeep]

40. ....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC1nTSxuLgM&feature=related

[unkachuck]

32. darn....

"Russia said on Friday its forces had seized U.S.-made weapons..."

....does this mean I won't be receiving another stimulus check anytime soon?

[DU GrovelBot]

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[fascisthunter]

34. It's Like Watching a Game of Risk... but with Human Lives

at stake

[ohio2007]

36. Stuf found could have been left abandoned

[ohio2007]

38. Video of Russian

Raw footage of Russian army in Georgian soil
- Post Media Reply
Footage of the Red Army in Georgian soil.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7a1_1218975996




Watch for this surplus stuff to be auctioned off soon


ski

[HuffleClaw]

41. anyone reminded of bushista whining about IRANIAN weapons in Iraq?

because I sure am

[Javaman]

42. And it was a mystery that the US sold them weapons?

that's news to me. I thought everyone knew we were arming them.