Wind Energy Bumps Into Power Grid’s Limits

[RamboLiberal]

Source: NY Times

When the builders of the Maple Ridge Wind farm spent $320 million to put nearly 200 wind turbines in upstate New York, the idea was to get paid for producing electricity. But at times, regional electric lines have been so congested that Maple Ridge has been forced to shut down even with a brisk wind blowing.

That is a symptom of a broad national problem. Expansive dreams about renewable energy, like Al Gore’s hope of replacing all fossil fuels in a decade, are bumping up against the reality of a power grid that cannot handle the new demands.

The dirty secret of clean energy is that while generating it is getting easier, moving it to market is not.

The grid today, according to experts, is a system conceived 100 years ago to let utilities prop each other up, reducing blackouts and sharing power in small regions. It resembles a network of streets, avenues and country roads.

“We need an interstate transmission superhighway system,” said Suedeen G. Kelly, a member of the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.



Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/27/business/27grid.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin

[lapfog_1]

1. Or distributed power generation

that doesn't require a superhighway for power.

Solar works better (less obtrusive in a suburban environment) for this, but small wind can work for rural customers.

[Devil_Fish]

28. Wind generates far more power with a smaller foot print. Cheaper too.

Looking at cost, and space requirements I can get about 10-15 amps for about $2K for my sail boat, but I don't have enough deck space for two 2x4 panels. For $900 I can get a small wind generator that will give me 33 amps at 25 knots of wind and mounts to a pole. All of this is scalable. Large scale solar will run into the same problem with the grid.

Why use the grid?

A friend of mine lives on the coast and gets 12 knots average wind speed year round, only dipping below 7knots for a half hour a week. he, and every one in his neighborhood could install one of these: http://potomacwindenergy.com/ and the power company would have to pay him. This wind gen cost about $7K installed and will run the electric meter back wards in as little as 7MPH of wind. Large scale wind farms have problems because of the grid, and cost. We the consumers can however, start producing our own power to the point where burning cole will no longer be profitable for the power company. Neighborhoods could start supplying themselves and the "Grid" will become obsolete if it isn't already.

[BrklynLiberal]

2. THis should have been planned for during the Carter administration...

I mean his second administration..the one that was stolen from him by Reagan and his cohorts.

[MicaelS]

19. Bullshit...

The only one that cost Carter the election was Carter. Carter's abject failure to do anything concrete about the Hostages and let the Iranians humiliate us for 444 days is what led to his loss.

[yellowcanine]

20. Actually Carter lost mainly because of the lousy economy which he inherited.

Combined with a major run up in gas prices and gas shortages.

In the late 1970's the U.S. economy was still absorbing the impact of runaway inflation caused by the "guns and butter" policies of LBJ and Nixon. Nixon made things worse with wage and price controls in 1971 which briefly dampened inflation but by the 1976 election inflation was skyrocketing. It would not be brought under control until the deep recession of the early 1980s.

As for the hostages, it is easy to second guess Carter but I have never heard anyone suggest how he could have done anything differently, except not approve the disastrous rescue attempt which had little real chance of succeeding and probably made things worse. After all the hostages came home safe and sound and probably would have come home earlier had Carter won reelection - at that point the Iranians wanted to be rid of them and only held on to punish Carter for freezing their assets in U.S. banks and for the hostage rescue attempt. The hostages were actually more of a disaster for Iran than for the U.S. Holding diplomats hostage is just not done by civilized countries and Iran has paid a steep price for it - no one trusts them to this day.

[Psephos]

26. He had four years

and the economy was worse when he left office than when he entered it. Politics isn't fair and rationalizing after the fact is a trait of those who played the game and lost.

Carter, though plenty smart, was not an economic wunderkind.

[agincourt]

30. I can't speak for the coasts,

but in the midwest I had a hell of an easier time finding a job and making semi-decent money under Carter than I did under the Reagen administration.

[Ignis]

22. Never heard of the October Surprise?

Welcome to DU. Research is your friend. :hi:

[MicaelS]

29. Same way I've heard of other conspiracy BS

As the Wikipedia article linked below states

Two separate congressional investigations as well as several investigative journalists looked into the charges, both concluding that there was no plan to seek to delay the hostages' release. At least three books, all titled October Surprise, have argued the case for the alleged conspiracy.

After twelve years of news reports looking into the alleged conspiracy, both houses of the US Congress held separate inquiries into the issue, and journalists from sources such as Newsweek and The New Republic looked into the charges. Both Congressional inquires, as well as the majority of investigative reports, found that the charges were groundless. Nevertheless, several individuals, most notably former Iranian President Abolhassan Bani-Sadr and former Reagan-Bush campaign and White House staffer Barbara Honegger, continue to claim otherwise.

The October Surprise is just more woo-woo Conspiracy BS in my opinion.

[Ignis]

31. Oh yes, the hostage release date was just a HUGE coincidence.

:eyes:

If you follow the line from the October Surprise through Iran-Contra, you will find an unbroken chain of deals between the BFEE and America's "enemies."

But I'm sure the wool over your eyes is nice and comfy, so I'll let you continue on your merry way. Saint Ronnie thanks you for your support.

Welcome to DU.

[BrklynLiberal]

25. One of many sources that refer to the October Surprise...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/October_surprise#1980_Carter_vs._Reagan

The original Carter October Surprise was first written about in a Jack Anderson article in the Washington Post in the fall of 1980, in which he alleged that the Carter administration was preparing a massive military invasion of Iran for rescuing the hostages in order to help him get reelected. Subsequent allegations surfaced against Ronald Reagan alleging that his team had impeded the hostage release to negate the potential boost to the Carter campaign.<1>

During the Iran hostage crisis, the Republican challenger Ronald Reagan feared a last-minute deal to release the hostages, which might earn incumbent Jimmy Carter enough votes to win re-election.<2> As it happened, in the days prior to the election, press coverage was consumed with the Iranian government's decision--and Carter's simultaneous announcement--that the hostages would not be released until after the election.<2> In fact, the election coincidentally fell on the one-year anniversary of the 1979 hostage-taking; this undoubtedly contributed to Carter's loss to Ronald Reagan.

After the release of the hostages on the same day as Reagan's inauguration on January 20, 1981, some charged that the Reagan campaign made a secret deal with the Iranian government whereby the Iranians would hold the hostages until Reagan was inaugurated, ensuring that Carter would lose the election.<2> Two separate congressional investigations as well as several investigative journalists looked into the charges, both concluding that there was no plan to seek to delay the hostages' release.<2>{as credible as the Warren Commission and the 9/11 Commission, no doubt} At least three books, all titled October Surprise, have argued the case for the alleged conspiracy.<3>

[RantinRavin]

33. But why would they need to hold them that long ?

The election was in November, why would they need to be held until January to make sure he lost the election ?

[LanternWaste]

35. What was the precise and relevant

What was the precise and relevant 'concrete' course of action Carter should have taken and how does that compare to what Reagan did?

[truthisfreedom]

3. There's other solutions. Even with low-efficiency electrolysis, hydrogen can be manufactured from

water using excess wind power and stored locally for use later in hydrogen-powered vehicles and anything else that benefits from burning clean hydrogen fuel. With a conversion efficiency of only 30% a huge amount of energy can still be stored away. In a rural setting, hydrogen could be a godsend. Entire communities could go completely off the grid with wind power and hydrogen production!

[Bette Noir]

4. Links?

[krispos42]

9. Or use the power to distill ethanol

As opposed to, say, natural gas or goal. Industrial-strength heating elements will do the job just fine.

[Trajan]

5. WTF have we been paying for ?

WHO is spending the money that should be paying for infrastructure development ?

[Rebellious Republican]

15. Trajan, you have been posting around here long enough for me to

know that your question is purely rhetorical. But for those who may be less informed, I will happily answer your question for them.

That money is being used to pay their CEO's four hundred times the average employee salary and record bonus pay outs to the CEO's and Board members.

[galledgoblin]

6. hopefully another of our neglected problems that the Obama admin

will step in and take care of.

enough is enough. if the private market cannot handle the demands, the government needs to run things.

[blayne]

7. I first heard about this problem a few months ago.

When T Boone Pickens came out with his wind energy plan this was addressed somewhere. Can't remember now, but I think one of his goals is to bring the infrastructure up to speed here in Texas so that the wind/energy out in West Texas can power the bigger cities on the other side of the state.

I'm sure the grid is alot worse up North and in California though. Can't say that we have ever had a blackout here in Texas. Even when Enron was trading energy.

[dkf]

12. I think I read that Texas isn't connected to the national grid.

[Pete2069]

8. Do you believe that maybe

So this means that they have intentionally keep the profits
and never plan for any improvements.
They can now use this for a reason to charge more for less.

[bananas]

10. Al Gore invented the Electranet

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electranet
Electranet is a proposed smart electric grid which would allow people to sell electricity into the grid without any artificial caps. It was proposed in an op-ed article Al Gore wrote in a "My Turn" column for Newsweek in 2006.
<snip>

http://www.newsweek.com/id/37580
My Turn: The Energy Electranet
The climate crisis will force a historic shift to a new global power network of small alternative sources. This network will then feed a smart electric grid. Welcome to the future.
By Al Gore | Newsweek Web Exclusive
<snip>

[LaPera]

11. Our infrastructure in this country is in bad shape and the past eight years under BushCo

it gotten far worse, they don't give a shit.

[lonestarnot]

13. Woodamnwhoo! More jobs! And they can't ship those out!

[Rebellious Republican]

16. Thats why undocumented workers and HB1 visa's are so loved

by our fascist leaders and corporations. Thats who will get those coveted jobs, sorry to burst your bubble. Just face it, we are fucked!

[Ghost Dog]

14. We (the World) need High-voltage direct current (HVDC) supergrids:

and distributed renewable energy sources.

Wind-fuelled 'supergrid' offers clean power to Europe: 5,000-mile network could cut entire continent's carbon output by a quarter

Solar power from Saharan sun could provide Europe's electricity, says EU: Huge £35bn supergrid would pool green sources; Brown and Sarkozy back north African plan

Power transmission: How to make wind power hum: Economist.com

[PugNot]

17. How can we upgrade power distribution when...

NIMBYS, Luddites, and other backward people consistently oppose upgrading the electrical infrastructure? (and at the same time often wonder where the electric cars are) Just google "opposition to new high power lines" to see for yourself.

[progressoid]

18. That's been the problem here in the midwest for years.

I've often driven by wind farms in Iowa where 20% of the generators are shut down because allowing them to run would generate more electricity than the grid could manage.

Nebraska is ripe for wind power. Unfortunately, the windiest parts of the state are also the least populated and therefore have the least infrastructure.

[Dover]

21. Perhaps in the short run we ought to emphasize (and subsidize) decentralized power

for homes and businesses rather than waiting for the grid system to catch up.

Why not make that cheaper for the individual?

[The2ndWheel]

23. How is that decentralized power?

Where is the money coming from to subsidize the energy?

[Dover]

24. It's not hooked up to the grid. By that I suppose I mean mainly solar power

with some people able to install wind as well.

Government incentives on solar panels, whether in rebates or tax breaks, etc.

[The2ndWheel]

27. So the centralized state is subsidizing the decentralization of energy use

To me that means one of two things. The state is actually giving up power voluntarily, thus reducing the authority of the state(where does the money keep coming from?). Or, the energy will still be centralized, since if the subsidies are cut, you can't pay for the energy(or at least have to pay more for it).

Take healthcare as an example. What we have now, is pretty much a decentralized system. Everyone wants a centralized system, a national system, where everyone is pooled together under one roof.

I'm not sure decentralized energy can involve the government paying for any part of it. I'm not sure the government could continue to function the way people want it to with actual decentralized energy.

[LeftHander]

32. Utility monopolies can't charge $$$ for abundance of power....

Forget big windmills...

Time to get the American people OFF THE GRID and producing our own power from solar and wind.

[RantinRavin]

34. Okay, so shut down one of those damn coal fired plants

to make room on the grid.