Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

OSCE report points finger at Georgia for S. Ossetia crisis

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 12:24 PM
Original message
OSCE report points finger at Georgia for S. Ossetia crisis
Source: RIA Novosti / Der Spiegel

BERLIN, August 30 (RIA Novosti) - The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe has accumulated evidence pointing to "numerous wrong decisions" made by Georgian leaders that led to a military crisis with Russia, Der Spiegel said on Saturday.

In a report to be published in its Monday edition, OSCE military observers in the Caucasus described detailed planning by Georgia to move into South Ossetia which contributed to the crisis, the German magazine said.

The report also backed up Russian claims that the Georgian offensive was already in full swing by the time Russian troops and armored vehicles entered the Roksky Tunnel, on the border with Russia and South Ossetia, to protect its peacekeepers and the civilian population.

The OSCE report also contains suspected war crimes committed by Georgians, who ordered attacks on sleeping South Ossetian civilians.

Read more: http://en.rian.ru/world/20080830/116412855.html



OSZE-Beobachter machen Georgien schwere Vorwürfe
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,575396,00.html

The planning for this operation began in 2006 (!):

"Saakashvili's plans for an invasion had been completed some time earlier. A first draft prepared in 2006, believed to be a blueprint of sorts for the later operation, anticipated that Georgian forces would capture all key positions within 15 hours."
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,574812-2,00.html

Look, I am all for supporting the Georgian people and for trying to find a peaceful solution to the conflict, but how can we continue to support a war criminal like Saakashvili who cynically plotted to start a war on the eve of the Olympics?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 12:45 PM
Response to Original message
1. Georgia bombed and invaded another country
Doing such is never right.

No matter what claims Georgia may have thought it had over South Ossetia, bombing it back to the stone ages is not the way to treat anyone.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Croquist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. It wasn't another country and even if it was
it isn't anymore. Russia has decided to take it over. So much for liberating South Ossetia.

PS: You comment about "bombing it back to the stone ages" may be a bit much.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Robbien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Then you haven't seen the pictures
And

It is a crime to bomb another country, and an even bigger crime to bomb those you believe are under your protection.

No matter what status South Ossetia is to Georgia, it should not have been destroyed by Georgian bombs. And it shouldn't have had to suffer from Georgia dropping sporadic bombs on it throughout these past eighteen years.

And, for the record, South Ossetia is the one who wants to join with North Ossetia in Russia.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Political Heretic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 07:10 PM
Response to Reply #3
37. You need to read human rights watch reports before talking.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
jaybeat Donating Member (729 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 01:17 PM
Response to Original message
2. Looks like another one for the "No shit, Sherlock." file (nt)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Croquist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 02:27 PM
Response to Original message
4. Do you realize that your main source is
"The Russian News and Information Agency"?

Just wondering...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Do you think you will hear the truth of FAUX SnewZ?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Croquist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. No.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Actually, the main source is Der Spiegel. RIA Novosti translated it into English.
The translation is fairly accurate. Here is the original article:

OSZE-Beobachter machen Georgien schwere Vorwürfe

Die georgische Regierung am Pranger: Nach SPIEGEL-Informationen hat die OSZE Hinweise darauf, dass die Führung in Tiflis den Krieg mit Russland verschuldet hat. In Berlin beschäftigte man sich schon vor Monaten in internen Szenarien mit den Folgen einer aggressiveren Außenpolitik Moskaus.

Hamburg - In der Zentrale der Organisation für Sicherheit und Zusammenarbeit in Europa (OSZE) häufen sich offenbar Hinweise auf ein massives Fehlverhalten der georgischen Führung, das zum Ausbruch der Krise beigetragen hat. Nach Informationen des SPIEGEL sind auf informellen Kanälen Berichte von OSZE-Militärbeobachtern aus der Kaukasus-Region an verschiedene Regierungsstellen in Berlin gelangt.

Demnach habe Georgien den Militärschlag gegen Südossetien intensiv vorbereitet und seinen Angriff begonnen, bevor russische Panzer den Verbindungstunnel nach Südossetien befuhren. In den Berichten sei von möglichen georgischen Kriegsverbrechen die Rede. So berichten OSZE-Beobachter davon, dass die georgische Führung die südossetischen Zivilisten zur Schlafenszeit habe angreifen lassen.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,575396,00.html


Now let's compare it directly to the translation:

BERLIN, August 30 (RIA Novosti) - The Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe has accumulated evidence ("hat die OSZE Hinweise darauf") pointing to "numerous wrong decisions" made by Georgian leaders ("massives Fehlverhalten der georgischen Führung") that led to a military crisis with Russia ("das zum Ausbruch der Krise beigetragen hat"), Der Spiegel said on Saturday.

In a report to be published in its Monday edition, OSCE military observers in the Caucasus described ("Berichte von OSZE-Militärbeobachtern") detailed planning by Georgia to move into South Ossetia ("habe Georgien den Militärschlag gegen Südossetien intensiv vorbereitet") which contributed to the crisis ("das zum Ausbruch der Krise beigetragen hat"), the German magazine said.

The report also backed up Russian claims that the Georgian offensive was already in full swing ("seinen Angriff begonnen") by the time Russian troops and armored vehicles entered the Roksky Tunnel ("bevor russische Panzer den Verbindungstunnel nach Südossetien befuhren"), on the border with Russia and South Ossetia, to protect its peacekeepers and the civilian population.

The OSCE report also contains suspected war crimes committed by Georgians ("In den Berichten sei von möglichen georgischen Kriegsverbrechen die Rede"), who ordered attacks on sleeping South Ossetian civilians ("die südossetischen Zivilisten zur Schlafenszeit habe angreifen lassen").


As I said, the translation is fairly accurate.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
The Croquist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
10. Was that the entire Der Spiegel article or just parts of it?
Was the Der Spiegel source the entire OSCE article (that hasn't yet been published) or just part of it.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 06:06 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. I don't know. We'll have to wait and see.
Apparently, the OSCE article will appear in the print edition on Monday. Will it be identical to the online version? Is there a difference between the print edition of Der Spiegel and SPIEGEL ONLINE? I have no idea. In any case, I hope that the article will it be translated into English.

It would be great to learn more details about those OSCE reports. I remember that they were already mentioned by the Washington Post:

Western officials in and around South Ossetia also recorded the troop and armor movement, according to a Western diplomat who described in detail on-the-ground reports by monitors from the OSCE. The monitors recorded the movement of BM-21s in the late afternoon.

-snip-

Russia denies any such late-night bombardment. OSCE monitors in Tskhinvali also did not record any outgoing heavy artillery fire from the South Ossetian side at that time, according to a Western diplomat with access to the organization's on-the-ground reporting.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/16/AR2008081600502_pf.html

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. I am sure we can trust this info 100%
:sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 10:22 AM
Response to Reply #15
18. Der Spiegel is a major mouthpiece for the "trans-atlantic partnership"
and you will find all talking points handed out to the US corporate media replicated there.

The information about the OSCE reports comes from sources in the German government, though, which earlier has indicated that it intends to maintain "a modicum of reason" (Steinmeier). Rest assured that the info is indeed 100% correct, and will be backed up, if necessary. It doesn't conflict with earlier reports, anyway.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 04:45 PM
Response to Original message
8. DPA, Deutsche Welle: "Spiegel: OSCE observers fault Georgians in conflict"
For those who don't trust RIA Novosti or my own translation skills, you can also compare the article to the versions offered by Deutsche Presse-Agentur and Deutsche Welle.

DPA:

Spiegel: OSCE observers fault Georgians in conflict
Aug 30, 2008, 9:52 GMT

Hamburg - European observers have faulted Georgia in this month's Caucasus conflict, saying it made elaborate plans to seize South Ossetia, according to the German news magazine Der Spiegel on Saturday.

In a report to appear in its Monday edition, it said officials of the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) had said acts by the Georgian government had contributed to the outbreak of the crisis with Russia.

Spiegel said OSCE military observers in the Caucasus had described preparations by Georgia to move into South Ossetia.

The onslaught had begun before Russian armoured vehicles entered a southbound tunnel under the Caucasus Mountains to South Ossetia.

It said the OSCE report also described suspected war crimes by the Georgians, including the Georgians ordering attacks on sleeping South Ossetian civilians.

http://www.monstersandcritics.com/news/europe/news/article_1427854.php/Spiegel_OSCE_observers_fault_Georgians_in_conflict


DW:

German news weekly Der Spiegel separately reported that OSCE observers were blaming Georgia for triggering the crisis in a series of unofficial reports to the German government.

OSCE monitors said Georgia had made extensive preparations for the offensive in South Ossetia in early August.

http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,2144,3604909,00.html

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
libodem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-30-08 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
12. When you hear Chaney's aides were in the country
and that soldiers' bodies were recovered who were wearing black uniforms with american flags on them you have to wonder, why the country with the big oil pile line became embroiled in conflict. Maybe if we have a bone to pick with the Soviets anyway, going in to Iran, won't piss them off, any more than we already have.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
prkl777 Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 08:35 AM
Response to Original message
13. A Der Spiegel Scoop?
I cannot find this story from OSCE website, not in new documents or press releases http://www.osce.org/documents/latest.php .. isnt this the add where usually they publish their reports(?).I was wondering whether you've seen it? And could you drop the address for it, thanks!

Here is, by the way, something you might find interesting as a counter argument for the Der Spiegel's: "Saakashvili's plans for an invasion had been completed some time earlier ... "

From 7th August, An interesting text from a Moscow based defense analysist, Pavel Felgenhauer, although his conclusion "Kokoity and other Ossetian officials seem to be bent on provoking a major Russian intervention, but apparently not everyone in Moscow is ready to plunge headlong into war" was a bit .. errrr, wrong.

http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=427&issue_id=4583&article_id=2373294




Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. How is the article you cite a "counterargument" to the facts reported?
The article in Der Spiegel simply states that OSCE reports (not necessarily a formal document such as a "Final Report" which would be published at their website) have reached several "Regierungsstellen in Berlin" (i.e. unspecified officials in the German federal government) via informal channels.

The timeline of the Georgian attack has been reported in many press reports from day one, the OSCE observers only confirm this widely known information. See also: The 2008 Crisis in the Caucasus: A Unified Timeline, August 7-16 by Nicolai N. Petro, Professor of Political Science at the University of Rhode Island, Kingston, RI (USA).

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Welcome to DU!
:hi:

As Reorg pointed out, the Spiegel article is based on "a series of unofficial reports to the German government" by OSCE observers.

Thank you for this very interesting article by Felgenhauer (written literally on the eve of the war !). It seems to me that he fell victim to the same miscalculation as the Georgian leadership, believing that "apparently not everyone in Moscow is ready to plunge headlong into war" because "thousands of Russian troops with hundreds of pieces of armor must invade South Ossetia through the Rokki tunnel" to "prevent the fall of Tskhinvali" and "high casualties are possible".

Again I have to agree with Reorg that the article doesn't really represent a "counter-argument" against that other "Spiegel scoop", based on Western intelligence sources, that the planning for the attack on Ossetia began in 2006 and "had been completed some time" before the attack.

BTW, I described the Georgian plan here in some detail.

Did the Russians anticipate it in some form? Yes, as Putin himself admits in his interview with CNN's Matthew Chance.

"Putin: ... I'll be frank with you, and actually there is no secret about it, we had of course considered all the possible scenarios of events, including direct aggression by the Georgian leadership."

Still it was Saakashvili who made that incredibly stupid decision to launch a massive attack on the South Ossetian capital, killing Russian peacekeepers and giving the Russians the perfect pretext to act against Georgia. Nobody forced him to do that. He is solely and fully to blame.


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
16. In other news...
Jews with jobs cited as cause for concentration camps and uppity women force their husbands to beat them. :sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. The Ossetians would be the "uppity women" in your example, "forcing"
Saakashvili to "punish" them by pounding Tskhinvali with "Georgian mortars, then rockets, then heavy 122mm Grad missiles fired from truck-mounted launchers".

Nobody "forced" him to escalate the conflict by launching a massive attack on the South Ossetian capital, killing Ossetian civilians and Russian peacekeepers and offering the Russians the perfect pretext to act against Georgia and march into Ossetia and Abkhazia.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 01:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Your info is a little old....
Haven't you read the updated casualty figures or accounts. How about the attacks by South Ossetia in June? Try other sources instead of the RIA.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. Are you disputing that the Georgians pounded Tskhinvali with Grad missiles?
Then you will have to deal with the little problem that Davit Kezerashvili himself (you know, Georgia’s defense minister) told the Washington Post that they used Grad missiles in the attack:

By 2 a.m. on Friday, Aug. 8, Kezerashvili said, Georgian ground troops had advanced to the edge of Tskhinvali, and Georgian units had unleashed the BM-21 multiple rocket system, which can launch 40 rockets in 20 seconds.

Kezerashvili said the system was used to target separatist government buildings in the center of Tskhinvali, including the Defense Ministry and the Interior Ministry, where police forces have their headquarters. "It's not like a very open and big city, and I can tell you that we only targeted the places, the governmental organizations," Kezerashvili said.

But military experts said the BM-21 is a weapon for battlefield combat and not for use anywhere near civilians. "The BM-21 was designed to attack forces in large areas, and, as a consequence, if you use them in an urban environment, the likelihood of collateral damage is high," said retired Army Maj. Gen. William L. Nash, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/16/AR2008081600502_pf.html


How can you say, "try other sources instead of the RIA", when the quote you took issue with is from an article by... wait for it... the Financial Times? Sorry, but that's ridiculous.

And how can you claim that the "info is a little old" when the article was published only five days ago, on August 26? And the Spiegel article will be published... tomorrow. How can that info be "too old"...? BTW, the Spiegel is a German news magazine. It is not in any way linked to RIA Novosti. I also posted translations of the original article by DPA and Deutsche Welle.

I did not mention casualty figures, but the very paragraph of the Financial Times article quoted by me contains some information:

Starting at 11.30pm that night, Georgian mortars, then rockets, then heavy 122mm Grad missiles fired from truck-mounted launchers pounded Tskhinvali. The bombardment killed dozens, perhaps hundreds, of civilians over the next few days, though it appears that early Russian estimates of 1,500-2,000 dead were exaggerated; as of last week a Russian special commission had confirmed 133. At 6am, Russian peacekeepers say, Georgian tanks began to storm the city. At least 15 Russian peacekeepers were killed by Georgian fire, while many were wounded, says Capt Ivanov.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/af25400a-739d-11dd-8a66-0000779fd18c.html


If you have "updated casualty figures or accounts", why not post them here?

Again, I don't think that anything what happened in the preceding months could justify such a massive escalation. And how do you explain that the planning for the attack began in 2006?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. Oh, you and your FACTS. Some low-info DUers don't like them.
I, for one, welcome honesty like yours.

(In other words: nice job. You won this round handily.)

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:33 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Yep, those pesky facts
Like the ones that come out AFTER the propaganda has had its effect.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24219963-2703,00.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:32 AM
Response to Reply #24
29. One sided much?
Check out the Wikipedia write-up. Its mostly footnoted so you can confirm it for yourself. Notice that its not all black and white as you'd have us believe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetia#Georgian-Ossetian_conflict

You may also want to check out the Tsitelubani missile incident to get a full understanding of the conflict. Same link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian-Ossetian_conflict

I guess you also support Russia's use of cluster bombs as well.

You wanted updated casualty figures. Well here you go. This was posted on DU a few days ago.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24219963-2703,00.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #29
32. You are clearly not paying attention to what I am saying.
The "updated casualty figures" in your article are exactly the same as the casualty figures in the Financial Times article quoted by me.

The article quoted by you is in fact four days older than the Financial Times article, yet you complain that "your info is a little old"... Simply hilarious.

The Wikipedia articles also don't contradict anything I have written here.

I clearly stated that "I am all for supporting the Georgian people" and that "the continued Russian occupation of Georgia is totally unacceptable", but somehow you "guess" that I "support Russia's use of cluster bombs".

Guess what? You are wrong!

I also don't understand why you are so keen to defend a president who has been exposed as a liar and a possible war criminal and who is buddy-buddy with Cheney and McCain.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #32
33. You said thousands of civilians had died...
No one can confirm this. I don't necessarily support the Georgian president. I am just less likely to support him that the tiger conquering Putin. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 06:48 PM
Response to Reply #33
36. Could you point out where I said that?
Thanks.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. My bad...
I think my argument was with you terming it a "massive attack." I just won't sign on to Super Putin.s (see tiger saving incident thread) agenda. I think Obama recognizes that this is a dangerous man as well and I trust his judgment.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. You said thousands of civilians had died...
No one can confirm this. I don't necessarily support the Georgian president. I am just less likely to support him that the tiger conquering Putin. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. You said thousands of civilians had died...
No one can confirm this. I don't necessarily support the Georgian president. I am just less likely to support him that the tiger conquering Putin. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
prkl777 Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 02:31 AM
Response to Reply #16
26. Thanks!
Reorg & Satyagrahi ... Point taken. My purpose was to provide an alternative account("Ossetians are provoking a major intervention") to the notion of "Saakashvili's plans for an invasion had been completed some time earlier. A first draft prepared in 2006" hence I used the wording "counter-argue" but which was not very precise as you point out.

In regards to the OSCE "report" - I think I have to start reading all the words in stories - it seems to have been a rumor or something, because the OSCE spokesman Martin Nesirky has denied the information in the article, saying "none of" its regular reports distributed to 56 members through diplomatic channels "contains information of the kind mentioned in the Der Spiegel story."

Saakashvili is solely and fully to blame about giving the excuse for attack?

I agree in one way. I think he made a huge error by giving Russia some justification for invasion. But I also think that the Russian admin would have used some excuse sooner or later, at least one of the reasons being the Georgian NATO aspirations, rather than national sovereignty or protection of Ossetians, etc.

Then Chief of the General Staff Yuri Baluyevsky threatened "military action to defend our interests near our borders," if Georgia and Ukraine joined NATO (RIA-Novosti, April 11)
Minister Sergei Lavrov: "We told the Georgians that their desire to join NATO will not help solve the problems of Abkhazia and South Ossetia; it will lead to renewed bloodshed" (RIA-Novosti, June 6)

Source was again Pavel Felgenhauer's text - (I know, a bit limited selection of commentators but I like that he references his text with mainly Russian sources) -
http://www.jamestown.org/publications_details.php?volume_id=427&issue_id=4591&article_id=2373314 )
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
reorg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 05:20 AM
Response to Reply #26
27. Well, a link would be fine
Because from what I read about Mr. Nesirky's statement, he did not at all "deny" the information in the Spiegel article. All he said was that it was not from a regular report distributed through official "diplomatic channels". Which was never claimed in the first place.

The information leaked to Der Spiegel, namely that

- the Georgians carried out a massive, well-prepared attack
- in the dead of night, thereby victimizing sleeping civilians

has been reported by other sources and is not really in dispute, except for some contradictory statements by the attackers after the fact. Satyagrahi did a fine job putting everything together here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=389&topic_id=3827274

That it is not contained in any of the "regular reports" (yet) distributed by the OSCE may have many reasons, it is a long and complicated process until such documents are vetted and finalized, the OSCE is a large and complicated bureaucracy (I read a book by an OSCE observer in Kososo, who described how it works).

As for possible Russian motives to intervene, they are out in the open for a very long time. South Ossetians had never wanted to split from Russia and never agreed to be part of an independent Georgia. I'm not sure what the geostrategical benefit for Russia may be, but they were willing to deal with the problem all along.


Never since Hitler and the Western allies carved up Czechoslovakia at Munich in 1938 has a sovereign state been dismembered with the agreement of the international community, as the West is proposing to do with Serbia," says Nadezhda Arbatova, head of European studies at the official Institute of World Economy and International Relations in Moscow. "Russia is asking the West to stop and think about the precedent they are setting. Kosovan independence might make life a little simpler for Europe, but they are opening Pandora's box for the rest of us."

Last week, a group of four breakaway post-Soviet statelets – South Ossetia, Abkhazia, Transdniestria, and Nagorno-Karabakh – signed a joint statement calling on the world community to "recognize the will" of their peoples for independence.

Though Russia backed the emergence of those rebel territories, all four of which won wars of secession against their ex-Soviet parent states in the early 1990s, Moscow has never recognized their independence. Experts say that Russia, a multiethnic federation with an active separatist rebellion of its own in Chechnya, has good reasons to support the status quo. But the looming Kosovo verdict could tip the balance in favor of insurgent minorities, they warn.

Christian Science Monitor
Why Russia is against Kosovo plan, June 28, 2007
http://www.csmonitor.com/2007/0628/p06s02-woeu.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
prkl777 Donating Member (3 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 11:32 AM
Response to Reply #27
31. Reorg,
OK,

Mr. Nesirsky rejected that such information existed in reports which have been given out to member-state governments trough diplomatic channels and according to Der Spiegel OSCE observers were blaming 'Georgia for triggering the crisis in a series of unofficial reports to the German government'(Deutsche Welle). Hence, to say that 'Martin Nesirky has denied the information in the article' is not entirely wrong unless OSCE observers are reporting directly to German government.

Maybe its better to wait 'until such documents are vetted and finalized' as you said, and we see the observations putted together into an official conclusion. :)

"I'm not sure what the geo-strategical benefit for Russia may be, but they were willing to deal with the problem all along"

The spokeswoman of S.O. wasn't really happy with the Russian way of dealing the problem: "War is coming, but everyone, including Russia, is turning a blind eye. Russian statements are not helping us" (Kommersant, August 5).

In regards to the geo-strategical benefits I think that, although there has been some development in relations between NATO and Georgia since the war, the crisis has decreased Georgian possibilities to NATO membership in an extent that it would have been incorporated to the Atlantic Treaty. i.e. That "already members" would bind them to the faith of Georgia but instead they would continue to show their support in other forms. In Budapest, the reason why Germany and France where against a schedule on Georgian membership was de-stability. And now, I think, the region is not more, but less stable ... And this de-stability will not go away soon even though Russia now has showed support for increase in EU / OSCE presence in the buffer zones, i.e. in the Georgian regions outside S.O / Abkhazia where Russia has military presence and which cut the main transportation link from coast to the capital, and which could be used to "control" Georgia by limiting the ability of movement in the country, .. thats my opinion.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 10:22 AM
Response to Original message
17. We need to blame the Russians so that we can have Cold War II; facts be damned!
Those South Ossetian separatists are Osama-loving, WMD wielding, "terrarists."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Anarcho-Socialist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
19. I don't hear a peep from the Anglo-American media about this
Edited on Sun Aug-31-08 11:06 AM by Anarcho-Socialist
I won't live in hope.

Even "respectable" sources pushed the "Russia was the aggressor" line despite evidence to the contrary.

A question that I have though is, did the US government allow its Georgian client state to be pummelled by Russia so that Poland and Ukraine be frightened into signing onto the US Missile Shield project?

The talk of a "new Cold War" may be justified since Russia fears NATO encirclement, just like the Soviet Union feared "imperialist encirclement."
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
progressive_realist Donating Member (669 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-31-08 01:44 PM
Response to Original message
23. Facts don't matter.
The important thing is that Russia is EVIL.




:sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Satyagrahi Donating Member (254 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Sep-01-08 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
28. Diplomat: “Saakashvili lied 100 percent to all of us, the Europeans and the Americans.”
RUSSIA AND THE WEST
The Cold Peace

By Ralf Beste, Uwe Klussmann and Gabor Steingart
-snip-

Meanwhile, various ministries in Berlin have started to doubt the credibility of the most problematic friend of the West. Saakashvili, contrary to his own version of events, apparently ordered the attack on South Ossetia before the Russian tanks entered the province from the north via the Roki Tunnel.

'Carelessly Playing with Fire'

This was reported by military observers working with the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) who were in Georgia at the time. Information from tapped phone conversations involving Georgian political leaders may have also made its way into the reports, which have been leaked from OSCE headquarters in Vienna. One source who is personally familiar with the reports summarized the findings as follows: “Saakashvili lied 100 percent to all of us, the Europeans and the Americans.”

Just last week, the Georgian president told Germany’s mass-circulation Bild newspaper: “We respected the cease-fire. It wasn’t until the Russian tanks rolled into South Ossetia that we deployed our artillery.” The OSCE reports also indicate that Saakashvili attacked the civilian population while they were asleep in their beds. That could be tantamount to a war crime. “Our dialogue with Georgia has to become more critical again,” says a top Western diplomat.

-snip-

Rumors are currently circulating in the US that Cheney may have sparked the crisis in Georgia as a favor to the Republican presidential candidate. There is a wealth of evidence to support such a theory. McCain’s foreign policy advisor Randy Scheunemann was a lobbyist for the Georgian government until last May. McCain is a close friend of Saakashvili. If the OSCE allegations concerning Georgia’s war plans are substantiated, it could fuel debate on the issue. In the meantime, an election campaign conducted in the shadow of an international crisis offers McCain a golden opportunity. In the hour of peril, experience is likely to garner more votes than hope. Putin has triggered what McCain urgently needs: a sense of anxiety.

More:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,575581,00.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Tue Apr 30th 2024, 07:11 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC