Israel cautions against Obama dialogue with Iran

[Poll_Blind]

Source: Reuters

JERUSALEM, Nov 6 (Reuters) - Israel said on Thursday U.S. President-elect Barack Obama's stated readiness to talk to Iran could be seen in the Middle East as a sign of weakness in efforts to persuade Tehran to curb its nuclear programme.

"We live in a neighbourhood in which sometimes dialogue -- in a situation where you have brought sanctions, and you then shift to dialogue -- is liable to be interpreted as weakness," Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni said, asked on Israel Radio about policy change toward Tehran in an Obama administration.

Her remarks sounded the first note of dissonance with Obama by a senior member of the Israeli government since the Democrat's sweeping victory over Republican candidate John McCain in the U.S. presidential election on Tuesday.

Asked if she supported any U.S. dialogue with Iran, Livni replied: "The answer is no."

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/vcCandidateFeed7/idUSL6708889

---

Obama Foreign Policy: Yes we can!

Israeli response: No you can't!

  Oh well, it was a nice 24 hours or something before Israel started telling us what to do and how to do it. How many electoral votes do they have, again?

:eyes:

PB

[skypilot]

1. I'm so sick of this...

..."sign of weakness" crap. People sound like a bunch of macho jerks when they say that and now we have a woman saying it. That phrase has been thrown around so much that it's almost meaningless. Obama should blow her off. In fact, that might be seen as a "sign of strength" and as proof that he can stick to his guns and do what he says he's going to do.

[Poll_Blind]

7. Well the good news is something like 78% of American Jewish voters backed Obama because they AGREE..

...with his call for dialog and an Obama-style foreign policy approach.

  So it's going to be a tough sell to those voters, who are also statistically likely to belong to American Jewish organizations, that they were wrong on one of the key planks in his Presidential platform. Israel is welcome to turn up the rhetoric but it's going to sound alot like what was coming out of McCain's mouth- and that's something few American voters are interested in buying.

PB

[goforit]

114. Dictating their threats on us as always.

Where was the welcoming?

[The Backlash Cometh]

9. First thing that needs to be made clear is that nothing is ever permanent.

Not Diplomacy, not continual bombing. Diplomatic efforts can be undermined easily by quasi-allies, as we have seen; and the call for war can be manipulated by quasi-allies, as we have seen. Nothing is permanent and we need to make this clear to the warmongering Republicans who are worse than vampires with their lust for bloodshed.

What Obama needs to do is avoid Clinton and Bush's mistakes. He needs to make sure he doesn't surround himself by neo-con sympathizers.

[methinks2]

131. I agree

You're right on. Anything he does that's different than what B$#% has done would be seen as a sign of intelligence and strength.

[thraxis]

132. This ignoring them over the years has really worked hasn't it?

[ixion]

2. And this rogue state has any pull here in the US because...

:shrug:

[Kolesar]

22. ...they are very good at "message control"

Reporters live on "their side" of the wall and reporting is one sided. There is also a tribal instinct that the dark-skinned people are not "like us Americans".

[Plucketeer]

37. That's always been my wonder!

Since I don't care whether or not they survive as a coal mine canary to alert us to the stupid Rapture, how about they handle their own damned affairs?

Frankly, I would like to believe in the Rapture and the sooner the better! Can you imagine how pleasant a place this could be without the religio-loonies!???

[No Elephants]

82. Votes, both Jewish and, lately, evangelical as well. that is a significant voting bloc.

[timtom]

83. Deep pockets?

[dennis4868]

3. weakness is when you...

are afraid to speak to your enemies....

[No Elephants]

80. What Dennis4868 said. this should not have to be about bashing

Israel or anyone else. Input is great. We are a self-governing nation, though, and entitled to our own concepts of national strength or weakness.

[LeftishBrit]

85. Absolutely

Any country can say what it wants, but America makes its own decisions, as is it's right and duty and it may listen to the ideas of other countries, but it shouldn't, doesn't, and won't change its policies to accommodate any other country's government. (I'm speaking as a citizen of an allied country myself.)

And I am sure that Livni is not expecting otherwise. This comment was probably more aimed at Israeli voters than Americans: she is in a tight electoral race against Netanyahu and his Likud party and wants to reassure swing voters that she's sufficiently tough. Once she (hopefully) gets elected, and doesn't need to worry about Netanyahu on her tail, I suspect that she'll become significantly more dovish in her own approach.

[Mithreal]

95. Your suspicions are irrelevant.

Israel lobbies the US government and has entirely too much control of US legislators.

[williesgirl]

4. Tell her to mind her own fucking business and stay out of our foreign policy. Period. rec'd

[razors edge]

5. Hey walfare queen

flying F-16s, STFU.

[Billy Burnett]

6. AIPAC will need more money.

Hillary and Joe to the rescue!

[NOW tense]

8. Thanks for the input Ms. Livni. I think we might try something

different for a change.

[DemFromMem]

10. and the bashing resumes

This is not very different than what Hillary Clinton said. Or Joe Biden. Ms. Livni offered her opinion and it can be ignored. Concluding that she's dictating US policy is in your head. Incidentally, I agree that we should engage Iran rather than continuing the policy of no dialog so I'm not debating the substance of the policy. It won't matter because when people question the anti-Israel positions on this board, they get hammered in the best Republican tradition.

[here_is_to_hope]

16. I dont see any one being 'anti-Israel'...

Its just sensible people are done with Israel's whining.
Israel should have no place at our table.

[Poll_Blind]

17. I agree- but I do think there should always be a seat for them. If they choose to take it...

...fine. If they want to continue to propagate Bush-era policies they're welcome to pout and produce reams of unhappy press-releases. I just hope they're into recycling cause nobody's going to be reading them.

PB

[fascisthunter]

71. you are if you ever criticize Israel

just as the right wing calls us anti-american for criticizing America when it's wrong. You get the picture...

[Kolesar]

24. I dont see any "best Republican tradition" , either...eom

[...of J.Temperance]

27. I don't see any comments being "anti-Israel"

Telling Israel to butt out of United States foreign policy decisions ISN'T being "anti-Israel".

[LeftishBrit]

106. No, but implying that it controls the USA is anti-Israel.

There have been a lot of leaders and journalists in a lot of countries telling Obama what he ought to do. I think that they should really all wait till he's at least been inaugurated before they start with the free advice; but that's life for a prominent leader these days, and it's no different with Israel than anywhere else.

[Poll_Blind]

31. I don't know what thread you're basing those comments on, but it isn't this one.

:shrug:

PB

[jrockford]

33. BS - was her opinion sought? No..that isn't how this has worked before and it isn't how it is now

[Demit]

38. Being anti-Israeli POLICY is not being anti-Israel. I'll tell you what the best Republican tradition

is—accusing people of being against a country instead of being against its administration's positions. And that would be what you just did. In the best Republican tradition.

An Israeli foreign minister has no business publicly cautioning U.S. presidents-elect about how to conduct U.S. foreign policy. It's presumptuous in the extreme.

[bemildred]

11. There sure are a lot of stories today about people warning Obama not to do anything rash.

Some might suggest they would do better to wait and see a bit.
:popcorn::popcorn:

[No Elephants]

81. I have a feeling that "warning" Obama is not going to go over big with Obama.

[momrois]

12. Time for Israel to shut up

Their non-talks have netted them tons of money and weapons from the US, but little security or peace.

The whole world needs a new approach.

[Leftist Agitator]

13. Dear Israel,

I know that for the past eight years you have had a lapdog in the White House who would do your bidding to no end.

Those days will soon pass. Please stay the fuck out of our politics.

Signed,

The American People

P.S. I'm pretty sure that Iran is no threat to you, what with your large nuclear arsenal and all.

[Johnnyheadstone]

14. Here is an idea...

Let's remind Israel that the idea of their being an unbeatable military power has been destroyed by the undeclared war they recently lost to Hamas....who then went in and rebuilt the infrastructure that was destroyed in the conflict...they need to be told in no uncertain terms to change their tone or else....the US military can not intervene to help them should they be attacked....further because of our misguided wars in the region coming to the defense of Israel would set off a much larger conflict....so wouldn't the smart thing be to avoid the conflict all together by simply sitting down and negotiating...

Lincoln said it best: "If I make you my friend, you are no longer my enemy"

[frickaline]

15. Sometimes Israel reminds me

of a spoiled child. You love them dearly, but you know they really need a time out.

[Crowman1979]

18. Who holds the purse strings Israel?

We do! So shut your Likud ass up! And we're not impressed by your military actions in Lebanon recently, oh what a great strategy that turned out to be!

[Festivito]

19. Sounds like Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni stands against America.

She gets to leave her office before our right to speak freely leaves US.

Israel stays; she goes.

[bdamomma]

20. oh crap, what the hell is wrong with these people

oh, no don't talk with Iran what total BS.

[bagrman]

21. Hmm Does Israel really run this country? Maybe we can turn the page and try it ourselves.

Edit sp.

[devilgrrl]

23. Shouldn't that read "Likud cautions against Obama dialogue with Iran"?

Because that's really what it is.

[Poll_Blind]

28. Actually, Livni's party is Kadima- not like there's any real difference, unfortunately.

  Ariel Sharon broke from Likud to form Kadima in hopes of bringing a slightly more centrist voice to Israeli politics. Whatever he had in store we will never know. After his stroke there was a brief battle between Livni and Olmert for control of the party- which Olmert won. Olmert fucked thins up royally, unable to decide if he wanted to take the party in the more moderate direction which Sharon had promised or to play a more hawkish role (i.e. Sharon in Likud) to show Israelis that he was up to the task of being the PM.

  As a result of his inability to lead (in any particular direction) he managed to piss of almost all Israelis and accomplish very little. Today's Kadima is pretty much the same as Likud in most respects, unfortunately.

PB

[AndyTiedye]

25. Israel(i hawks) Are Worried That We Won't Attack Iran When They Tell Us To

[...of J.Temperance]

26. Hopefully President Obama will tell Israel to STFU

HE is the President, HE decides foreign policy, HE decides who he does and who he doesn't talk to.

Last time I checked, Israel didn't have any Electoral College votes allocated to it....so what President Obama decides to do is none of their business....I think we are now at the END of a time when Israel can dictate to an American President.

President Obama is going to be even-handed and fair....he's not going to play favorites, Israel won't like him therefore, as they're USED to being treated as the favorite regardless of anything.

I think the umbilcal cord just got cut on November 4th.

It's obvious why Israel wanted McCain to win....McCain meant more pandering and bending over backwards.

On Edit: Dammit spelling error

[liam_laddie]

36. In complete agreement!

The radical Zionist parties currently in control in the Knesset are a coalition, quite common in parliamentary systems of government. The majority of Israelis themselves favor a two-state solution, but due to the high number of separate parties there, they are unable to have the influence they deserve. Due to this "numbers game," moderates and progressives have been unable to shift the hawks' foreign policy toward other countries in the ME.

The ruling coalition there should stay the fuck OUT of our foreign policy! And contrary to what AIPAC claims, they DO have an unreasonable influence on our policies in that region. Personally, I am fucking sick-and-tired of being jerked around by Zionist jerks. No doubt, Israel has a right to exist, but they'd better start acting like a decent neighbor. No more withholding water from Palestinians, or settlers on non-Israeli land, or a multitude of inhuman policies toward non-Jews.
Shalom...

[Phx_Dem]

42. In your view

Do the Palestinians have any responsibility for the situation they find themselves in?

How many times have they been offered a state?

Or is it all the "radical zionists" fault?

[wellst0nev0ter]

46. Read "Shattered Dreams" By Charles Enderlin

that whole process was a fooking joke, starting with the fact that Ehud Barak refused to meet face to face with Arafat during most of the negotiations. Gee, sounds familiar?

[Phx_Dem]

49. Not according to Pres. Clinton

Maybe you should read a little--start with The Missing Peace by Dennis Ross.

Enderlin is a professional propagandist btw. He really had people going with the al-Dura hoax.

[wellst0nev0ter]

57. And Dennis Ross Really Had People Going With That Eye-Rack War

You should really know how to pick your sources.

Since I don't want this thread to be I/P'ed I think I'll end it right here.

[Phx_Dem]

58. Clinton has backed up everything in Ross's book.

It's the single best book on the peace process, something that Ross, as US envoy to the ME has been deeply involved with the entire time.

[The Stranger]

54. How many times have the Palestinians "been offered a state"?

Are you fucking kidding me?

Maybe offered a state of shock or various other bad emotional states.

[fascisthunter]

70. **cricketts** from an extremely biased individual

IThose who pick one side are extremists who actually keep that division between Israel and Palestine alive and well.

It's time for sensible people to shut out the extremists and start talking to each other with respect.

[bitchkitty]

78. Simply put, yet brilliant!

A philosophy that applies to more than just Israel and Iran. Thank you!

[wellst0nev0ter]

45. I Seriously Doubt That

He had to bend over backwards during the campaign in order to convince various right-wing Jewish and Israeli hawk groups that he will be joined at the hip with Likud Israel. He'll probably take the fig-leaf stance that "Israel has the right to protect herself" or some other warmed over soup.

[curse of greyface]

29. Isreal should STFU. that said can we add Isreal as a state when we add D.C.? nt

[curse of greyface]

30. DUPE

[jrockford]

32. Maybe Obama will do the right thing and cease assistance with Israel which will reduce tension in

the region...since when are Israel's interests more important than America's?

And don't bother with the B.S. that they are mutual interests...they aren't.

[Mithreal]

34. Livni should step down. Sometimes folks are their own worst enemies. nt

[LeftishBrit]

87. You do know who would almost certainly become PM if she did step down?

[Mithreal]

92. Does it change my point?

Do you really think you invalidated my point by predicting the future?

[LeftishBrit]

105. So what do you WANT to happen in Israel?

Livni isn't my favourite either, I'd like the left-wing Meretz party to win; but they're not going to, and it's not up to me anyway, and Livni is the best they're going to get at the moment. Better than Netanyahu or Mofaz.

[Mithreal]

111. I want a fair election, what more could I want? nt

[LeftishBrit]

113. So do I.

I just consider that it would not be productive for the most liberal of the electable candidates to step down, even if she did say something silly, at a time when it would probably lead to an extreme right-winger winning.

It doesn't really matter what we think, I suppose. She's not going to step down in response to the opinions of an American and a Brit, any more than Obama is going to cancel talks with Iran in response to the opinions of an Israeli. And that, in both cases, is as it should be.

[Mithreal]

116. You are right

Backoff would have been better.

[SOS]

35. A "shift to dialogue -- is liable to be interpreted as weakness"

Nixon - Mao
Reagan - Gorbachev

eom

[LeftishBrit]

107. good examples

Winston Churchill said that 'jaw jaw' is better than 'war war'.

[Name removed]

39. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Grinchie]

40. Hopefully the days of Israel wagging its American Dog are over

This support Israel no matter the cost scheme has got to stop. If they feel the need to get into a war that they cannot win, just let them do it. Bur withdraw all aid, military equipment and support other than doctors to healp treat all of their casualties.

Israel has long since gone over the line of self preservation, and has becaome a little too confidant that the U.S. supports them at any cost.

Believe me, if they were left to fend for themselves, youd see a major change in the way Israel behaves with its neighbors.

Now that Snivelin Joe Lieberman is walking on eggshells, they have lost a major cheerleader. Now that the elections are over, maybe Obama will have the guts to explain to America why we ignore the atrocities inflicted by the Israeli's, why we ignore the U.N. Sanction against Israel, and are unable to help resolve the huge land theft by Israel of the palestinian motherland.

Anyone notice how the Barrier Wall (Iron Curtain) in Israel has become a disappeared news item?

Actually, Israeli performed Air Strikes on on Hamas on Election Day, just to remind the U.S. that they control the fate of peace in the Middle East.

There are a lot of people in the U.S. who remember the U.S.S. Liberty in 1967. We also know it was McCain's father that buried the story, most likely in payback for protecting his idiot son from the fallout of the U.S.S. Forrestall incident.

I also think that Israel is just an excuse to project Military resources into the Middle East without actually taking responsibility for it. We get to come to the aid of "Our Friends" who just happened to be stealing our military secrets, sitting on a stockpile of undisclosed Nukes, are armed to the teeth with American weapon systems, and really like to kill palestinians.

How convenient.

I believe the little war in Georgia was an attempt to install a similar Israeli type of regime as cover for U.S. Operations in the Baltic. There were many U.S. Military and Israeli "Advisers" in place prior to Saakashvili's invasion.

But the Bush admin is so stupid they didn't get the timing right, and the response from Russia was swift, overwhelming and complete. It appears that the Russians took advice from Colin Powell in regards to fighting a war to win, instead of staging a media event.

It is time for the U.S. to review this dirty little relationship it has with Israel and examine the true costs of maintaining it.

[Phx_Dem]

41. How about aid to Egypt and the Palestinians?

Should the US withhold all aid to ME entities or just Israel?

Maybe you could tell me how that makes the ME safer?

Israel is the only democracy in the ME and you describe our relationship with them as "dirty"?

Do you have any evidence that Israelis "like to kill Palestinians" or do you like to just make shit up.?

[Kolesar]

43. They provoke children into throwing rocks, then they spray them with machine gun fire

Like rocks are going to hurt an armored personnel carrier.

[Phx_Dem]

44. I'm asking for real evidence

not stuff you just made up.

[Behind the Aegis]

51. You'll only get more propaganda.

Look at the responses on this thread.

[razors edge]

77. Shut it all down.

Take care of the children living in the streets of our own country first.

Israel can fend for herself, and our involvement in their problems obviously isn't helping either of us.

I could give you many links to the information you have requested, but I doubt that would matter to you.

[anitar1]

47. K&R How dare they think that the United States exists to be lectured and

dictated to by Israel? Or any other country for that matter. We have given them untold amounts of money and military supplies for years and years.So shut up already.I think they need a reality check. Our tax monies go to pay for all of the help they receive from us.

[KansDem]

48. First China warns Obama about Taiwan, now this...

I don't recall Bush the Unelected getting all this "Global Warning" in 2000...

[Behind the Aegis]

52. Where is that thread?

[KansDem]

55. Heard it on the BBC this morning

Here's a news report from an Australian source:

China tells Obama Taiwan remains key to good relations

Updated November 7, 2008 08:07:30

China has urged the US president-elect Barack Obama to oppose independence for Taiwan, saying the issue is essential to good relations between Beijing and Washington.

China's foreign ministry spokesman has also called on the U-S to stop selling arms to Taiwan and to honour the one-China policy, which sees Taiwan as part of mainland China.

During his election campaign, Senator Obama said he would work with China on economic and security issues while pushing Taipei and Beijing to settle their differences peacefully.

Taiwan is curently hosting the highest ranking Chinese envoy ever to the visit the island.

Radio Australia

[Behind the Aegis]

56. Thanks. Hadn't heard that and didn't know if there was a thread on it.

Though I doubt it would garner as much attention.

[KansDem]

59. Obama wins the election just two days ago...

...and already China and Israel are telling him what they want and don't want. I don't know, it just seems a bit hasty...

[Behind the Aegis]

60. And just wait, there will be a host of countries doing the same thing.

I don't know why this is so surprising to anyone. Obama is the president-elect of one of the most powerful nations in the world, it kind of makes sense that leaders from around the globe would start placing their wish-lists in, what are they gonna do, call the lame duck, Bush?

[KansDem]

61. Agreed. But I just thought these countries might wait more than a day or two...

And just wait, there will be a host of countries doing the same thing.

Perhaps we should be grateful officials from these countries didn't jump up on the stage immediately following Obama's acceptance speech Tuesday night and wave their "wish lists" in front of his face...

[Behind the Aegis]

62. But they didn't.

Why should we be grateful for something that didn't happen and would have never happened? Sounds like sour grapes. BTW, other countries have already started with suggestions of renewed dialog and other desires, Venezuela, for one.

[KansDem]

64. Hugo stated that Obama's win would be positive for US/Venezula relations...

Venezuela hopes Obama's election betters relations

CARACAS, Venezuela: Venezuela's foreign minister says Barack Obama's election as U.S. president is a historic moment for international relations.

Nicolas Maduro says the poor, black and immigrant people who elected Obama have chosen a "new brand" of diplomacy.

Venezuela has been victimized during U.S. President George W. Bush's eight years in office, Maduro said Thursday.

In September, Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez expelled U.S. ambassador Patrick Duddy after accusing him of aiding a conspiracy against his government — a charge Duddy denied.

Chavez also withdrew his ambassador from Washington, bringing relations to the lowest point in years. Asked whether the ambassadors would be returned, Maduro said "everything has its time."

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/11/06/news/LT-Venezuela-US-Obama.php

I don't see anything in this report about Hugo placing restrictions on Obama's approach to other countries as Israel and China have done, so why bring up Venezuela?

[Behind the Aegis]

75. Can't speak for China...

...but the remarks from Livini were in the course of an interview and were hardly "placing restrictions" on Obama or the US. All I see in this thread has been paranoia and the same old bigotry directed at Israel. Israel didn't tell Obama what he could or couldn't do, but that seems to passed by those who have nothing but contempt for Israel.

[KansDem]

84. Read the article.

Israel said on Thursday U.S. President-elect Barack Obama's stated readiness to talk to Iran could be seen in the Middle East as a sign of weakness in efforts to persuade Tehran to curb its nuclear programme.

Sounds like a warning to me. I just don't think Obama needs this kind of restriction placed on his future administration right now...

[Behind the Aegis]

90. You read the article, yet you see things not there.

"Could be seen" is a warning? You have got to be fucking kidding. Also, it wasn't "Israel," it was the PM-elect (possibly) in an interview when asked a DIRECT question. You and others are acting like she rushed the stage in Grant Park and yelled this in his face. Get a fucking grip!

[KansDem]

91. "Israel cautions against Obama dialogue with Iran" --says it all for me.

If you wish to read between the lines for me, go ahead; I won't stop you...

[Behind the Aegis]

99. Of course it does. Much like many others here.

I mean, why bother reading past the headline and getting the actual story? You were the one reading between the lines claiming it is a "warning" or "placing restrictions" on Obama and the US. Yet one more pathetic display of knee-jerk anti-Israeli attitude.

[sugapablo]

109. Don't bother...

...the anti-Israel crowd here is just too set in its ways.

Doesn't matter that Israel is BY FAR the most progressive state in the entire Middle East.

Doesn't matter what its contributions to the scientific, technological, and medical communities over the years gave been.

Doesn't matter how many people it may help through relief efforts and free medical care.

Doesn't matter that it has the only true democracy in the Middle East where every person regardless of age, race, gender, or religion has an equal vote (yes, the do try to maintain a Jewish majority, but all citizens may vote), and can personally petition the Israeli courts.

Because it uses a top of the line military to defend itself against lesser-armed attacks against its civilian population, it is seen as a bully by progressives here who somehow see suicide attackers against women and children as "freedom fighters".

Doesn't matter that if Israel didn't do this, it would see its people suffer and die an an alarming rate being surrounded by enemies who would love to "push them into the sea".

Doesn't matter that Israel is merely realizing the same hopes and aspirations as the Tibetan people which most people here actually support: to return to their homeland and practice their religion, speak their language, and re-establish their temples freely, with self-determination. (Why do you think the Dalai Lama wanted to meet with Jewish leaders in Dharmasala some years back to discuss just how he could maintain Tibetan hope in the diaspora and someday pull off what Israel did?)

I mean, come on...let's have Israel pull out and let Hamas run the show. Let's see how women and minorities are treated. Let's see a true democracy flourish. Let's see another diaspora of Jews wandering the Earth with no home of their own.

Just don't bother. No one cares.

[LeftishBrit]

108. Lula in Brazil has already suggested that Obama should end the embargo on Cuba

And I adore Lula and have never understood why there is an embargo on Cuba when America deals with loads of other communist countries after all; but nevertheless he too is giving Obama his advice. Why is it somehow a threat when someone from Israel does, and not when everyone else does?

[KansDem]

118. I've never understood the embargo, especially now.

We lost some 58,000 troops in Vietnam, yet when relations were "normalized," US corporations fell all over each other to get in there and set up factories and junk-food eateries. But we still have this embargo against Cuba, a communist country in which we never lost US troops. Don't ask me...

And I wasn't calling a "threat" an Israel official's warning to Obama about talks with Iran. I just thought Israel should perhaps wait until Obama begins putting together his cabinet. Then Israel, knowing who the Secretary of State is, could start letting their desires known.

I mean, the election wasn't 24 hours old when Israel and China began "advising him."

[LeftishBrit]

119. I agree with you..

and I wasn't referring to your post. You were complaining about ALL nations starting on Obama before he's even president. Which I agree is a bit much and must be a right pain in the arse for him; but comes with the job, no doubt. Some other posts, however, seemed to imply that it's somehow only Israel that does this, or that it's worse than when others do it. That's what I meant by 'saying it's a threat'.

[zelta gaisma]

50. ok I get Israel is an ally but

what the HELL gives them the right to tell us what to do (I know the rest of the world is saying pot calling the kettle) and WHY do we give the flying F*** what they say anyway? What will they do cut off our supply of dead sea salt? I love Israel, 1/2 of our family is Jewish but I am so sick of the US running middle east policy by Israel before doing anything. We don't ask the Uk's input every time we wipe our nose in Europe do we?

As I understood it the nuclear programme they have is energy based at the moment and isn't up to making weapons. Has that changed?

We tried the stick (sanctions) and now it's time for the carrot (talks)

[kitty1]

66. I use skin products with dead sea salt in it. Really good stuff

[zelta gaisma]

67. I cook with dead sea salt :P but seriously...

I'm tired of Israel yanking the US around by the nose (new York) and schlong (Florida). They and a large part of the US government seems to think that Israel has the US by the short hairs just because we have a large Jewish population...I say BULL ! Just because part of my family is Jewish doesn't mean ANY of us are going to side with Israel over the US if the US chooses to do something that Israel doesn't like. If we are Americans then we are Americans PERIOD! If we want to be Israeli we'd move there and THEN we'd support Israel over the US and we would be right to do so...get my point?

[killbotfactory]

53. What's the harm in dialogue?

wtf?

[Poll_Blind]

63. Well, they pretty much say it point blank: They're afriad it'll make them look weak.

  How lame is that? When a country gives press releases like that, citizens should start asking why they settle for such a government.

PB

[kitty1]

65. Shoot first; ask questions later; Lebanon's near annihilatation

a few years ago is testament to that. I think a country should defend itself at all costs if there is a real and viable threat to it.
But being a bully and using strong arm tactics just to prove your position and threaten off neighboring countries isn't going to win you any friends either.
Russia also has a history of employing those tactics especially before the break up of the Soviet Union. It produced the cold war and created a lot of animosity and problems.
I don't think that the government of Iran is so neanderthal and backward that they wouldn't want to reason with other countries. It's only in their best interestes.
But at the same time they need to know that they are being scrutinized carefully and if they get out of line all bets are off. There has to be some kind of balance here.
Obama is not going to rush into any decisions on this until he has time to carefully review his options I'm sure. Clinton will be advising him big time on this kind of thing.
Let's hope Obama doesn't pander to Israel the way Cheney did.
Israel wants to do to Iran what they did to Lebanon. And if that happens all Hell will break loose.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Zorra]

68. We'll talk to anyone we damn well feel like. Maybe we'll save you from getting nuked.

Now STFU and take care of your own country's extreme RW problem before they get you nuked.

[Proud of my country]

72. No, I think I'll leave it to Rahm Emanuel, Obama's New Chief of Staff

He'll have Obama's ear and he knows a little something about this situation being that his father is an Israeli immigrant (who fought with the Irgun) and Rahm was a civilian volunteer in the Israeli army during the first Gulf War. I'm sure everyone involved wants peace, but not peace at any cost. Thank you, though, for your well thought out and intellectual comments.

[Poll_Blind]

73. Yes, and he was also instrumental in staging the now-famous handshake between Arafat...

...and Rabin at the conclusion of the Oslo Accords. Unfortunately of course, Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish extremist for his work toward Peace. I think he will bring a unique and likely unexpected perspective and drive to the Peace process.

PB

[yellowcanine]

74. Israel, Russia, Chavez et al need to cool it for a while. Obama is not YET the President.

Until he is, they need to just keep quiet.

[LeftishBrit]

86. Good point - but unfortunately they are all embroiled in their own internal political battles

As I said upthread: Livni is NOT trying to dictate American policy, which she knows very well she can't do; she is undoubtedly trying to take votes away from Netanyahu in Israel's imminent election.

[Mithreal]

94. You are claiming knowledge of Livni's motivations

Do you know Livni personally? Have you had personal conversations?

[LeftishBrit]

102. Do you know her? Have you spoken to her?

You are making assumptions, as much as I am.

Mostly, politicians are out to win elections, not to do the impossible, like controlling another country many times their size. And note that she said this when put on the spot in an interview, not as an official government statement to the USA.

What I think is really bothering me here is that people are acting as though Israel COULD or DOES rule America. Other politicians in other countries may say all kinds of things about "America should do this" or "Britain shouldn't do that", and at worst the individual leader is seen as stupid and arrogant to poke his/her nose in something that's not their direct business. But when it's someone from Israel, suddenly it gets treated as a real threat! It isn't; Obama can do what he wishes; Israel doesn't have military power over the USA, nor is the USA financially dependent on Israel (the other way round in fact); nor is it a state with electoral votes!

[Mithreal]

110. Neither do I claim to know her motives which you did

The Israeli lobby rewards US legislators with cash.

I agree with some of your sentiment.

I would say the same about Turkey and Saudi Arabia having undue influence! It is not just an Israeli thing. They owe us a lil more loyalty and self-control.

[LeftishBrit]

115. What is THE ISRAELI LOBBY?

Specifically, do you mean the American pro-Israel lobby, or some group of Israelis? Two different things entirely. (I guess what bothers me about equating the two is that it can lead to an assumption that Americans who support Israel are not real American citizens but Israelis. Same goes for any other country.)

I am glad you are not singling out Israel, as I strongly oppose the scapegoating of 'bogeynations'. This applies to Iran too.

I don't know what you mean by 'ignorant or worse'. I am in *favour* of talks with Iran; and I am not in favour of President Obama changing his policy simply because a foreign leader wants him to. Nor do I think he will do so. But I don't think Israel should be blamed for any but ITS OWN actions. American leaders' choices are their own. And other countries don't 'owe' America any self-control in their expression of opinions; that way lies the sort of attitude expressed by the right: "We saved France from the Nazis 60-odd years ago, so they should shut up and not criticize us'. Of course, America also doesn't owe Israel, France, Britain or anyone else any guarantee of acting in line with these opinions! But everyone should have freedom of expression, even to say something stupid; and the only duty any country owes another is to abide by international law, *and* any treaties or economic agreements between the countries.

Let me ask you something: would you feel the same way if Gordon Brown, in response to an interviewer, made some criticism of Obama's policies? I actually think he shouldn't at this stage, but I don't think reactions here would be as harsh.

[Mithreal]

120. I edited my comment earlier. It wasn't fair of me to say

I agree with you on nearly everything you say here. My emotions are just running pretty high right now. And yes, I would feel the same about any leader, even Gordon Brown. It is not an Israel thing for me. IMO it is way too early for any leaders to do anything but congratulate PE Obama. I sincerely apologize for writing anything that was inflammatory. think I might have been mean. Sorry about that. Thank you for the conversation : )

[LeftishBrit]

121. self-delete (dupe)

[LeftishBrit]

122. Thanks for that.

And congratulations on your new president.

[Owl]

76. I'm sick of Irael's arrogance, or rather that of their leaders/spoke-persons.

[Midwest_Doc]

79. What Else Does Israel Want?

They already have representation in the U.S. Senate.

[LeftishBrit]

88. They have no representation in the US Senate.

And what Livni wants is to win her own election.

[Mithreal]

93. BS. The Israel lobby is extremely over powerful in US politics

Israel has more control of the US Congress than the middle class of America has had.

[LeftishBrit]

104. HOW can Israel be that influential on American politics?

Usually when one country has power over another, it is because it either (1) has greater military might, or (2) holds the economic pursestrings; or (3) has a commodity that the other country needs (e.g. oil).

(1) Israel does not have greater military might than the USA; in fact it's a much smaller country.

(2) Israel depends financially on America, not the other way round..

(3) Israel has no oil or so far as I know any other commodity on which America depends.


Israel is actually in a similar role to the UK with regard to Israel: an allied country, whose right-wing has been collaborating too much with the right-wing of the USA. I don't think that this right-wing collaboration has been very good for ANY of the countries involved; but that does not make Israel - or the UK - the dominant party. Or do you think that the UK also dominates the USA?

Are you perhaps really saying that *American supporters of Israel* are overly powerful? Apart from anything else, American supporters of Israel are not Israelis.

Finally: is all this just an opinion on your part, or did you get it from some actual printed source? And if so, what source?

[Mithreal]

112. The problem with your argument is that I ask the same questions

and am amazed at the influence Israel has on American politics.

You need to Google the Israeli lobbyist organizations and see how they influence American politics with CASH. They have become a model for other countries lobbying efforts.

Yes, indeed, how is it that money influences the US government so much? Come on, you can google it yourself and check sources.

[riverdeep]

127. I'm sure you've heard of the controversial book that came out last year,

"The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foriegn Policy":

http://www.amazon.com/Israel-Lobby-U-S-Foreign-Policy/dp/0374177724

The authors (political scientists at U of Chicago and Harvard) believe that Israel does have an influence that cannot be accounted for by shared values, or support for democracy or similar arguments. They believe that there is an Israeli lobby that makes it impossible for American politicians to even question anything not resembling unwavering support for Israel in all of it's policy decisions.

Here is an article the authors wrote for the LA Times earlier this year for those seeking further insight:

("Israel's false friends-U.S. presidential candidates aren't doing the Jewish state any favors by offering unconditional support.")
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/sunday/commentary/la-op-mearsheimer6jan06,1,6831048.story

[Behind the Aegis]

100. What a load of shit!

Seriously, where you do come up with bullshit like this?

[LeftishBrit]

89. It might indeed be better if other countries waited at least until Obama took office before

giving free advice; but it's not all in one direction. I remember when it was found that Israel was negotiating with Syria, and officials in the State Departments started whining that Israel hadn't 'asked America's PERMISSION' to have these talks! At least Livni is only offering (perhaps unnecessary) advice; not implying that she can give or withold permission!

FWIW, I fully support America's right to negotiate with Iran, Israel's right to negotiate with Syria, and Britain's right to negotiate with anyone at all, whatever other countries may think of it. But leaders may nevertheless comment, especially if they themselves happen to be in tough election contests with RW-ers who are accusing *them* of showing weakness.

[Mithreal]

96. LeftishBrit, I am not entirely against some of your arguments

Especially ones from this particular comment.

If I can be allowed to also give an opinion, weakness is what the US has shown with its Iran policy. The weakness came from fear and hatred of other. The Bush presidency has been run by extremist fundamentalists and I am taking my government back and worked nearly 60 to 70 hours a week volunteering many of the past weeks to end this horrible period in American history. These neocons and their supporters have shown shameful weakness. At risk of sounding stupid, we can show more strength if we let love be our guide when dealing with friends and enemies. If the enemies do force war, then fine, but we should face those conflicts with peace, justice and mercy in our hearts. I know I probably sound stupid, since a soldier may still be faced with the necessity to kill, but Obama represents strength. Too bad for Livni she can't embrace Obama's overly-simplistic but strong policy to talk with enemies without preconditions.

[LeftishBrit]

103. I agree on all this.

[snooper2]

97. FUCK ISREAL

nt

[Poseidan]

98. no thank you

If Israel wants peace, it must stop putting itself before others. Arrangements must be mutually, and equally, beneficial. (mis)Interpretations can be corrected.

[fourvahl]

101. Isreal will have to

consider the risk here. Iran must not develop nukes. Obama has made it clear that he is not going to do things the cold war way. Its a new century and things must be done more diplomatically.

[Dover]

117. I wonder how our relationship with Israel might shift IF we became more energy independent?

And by that I mean that we pull out from Iraq and from Afghanistan (both wars related to energy) and no longer rely on Saudi or ANY foreign oil. It seems to me that THAT is the solution we need to be
working on and putting our resources into.

[Haole Girl]

123. STFU Israel!

You can't tell us what to do.

Or, wait, can you?

[ohio2007]

124. Israel has a seat in Baracks cabnet 9 al Jazeera )

snip

“Provocative appointment”
Even though the Arab world rejoiced at Obama’s victory, it seems that Emanuel’s appointment reinforces perceptions in the Arab world that Obama’s presidency wouldn’t change the U.S. foreign policy toward the Middle East.
Ali Abunimah of the Electronic Intifadah seems upset at Obama's selection of a "pro-Israel hardliner."

"There could not be a more provocative appointment than Rahm Emanuel, if he wanted to send a signal that he is going to stick by a quite hard-line pro-Israel policy," Abunimah said on Democracy Now.

Abunimah pointed out that Emanuel's middle name is "Israel," and described Emanuel's father as "a gun runner for the Irgun… Of course, Rahm Emanuel himself is not responsible for any of that, but his record is sometimes far to the right of President Bush when it comes to supporting Israel."

Many Arab commentators have already mentioned the influence of Israel’s supporters in Washington and the possibility that they will restrict Obama’s freedom of movement in Middle East policy.


snip

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/newsfull.php?newid=180832

Already, the honeymoon is over for the Arab world by his first appointment and sour grapes over the new boss has begun.

Nobody saw this unchange comming ?

[entanglement]

125. I predict that very,very little will change in the mutually harmful US-Israeli relationship

Even the slightest attempts at peace will be thwarted by the Likudists and the military-industrial complex in both nations. The carte-blanche to the Israelis to do as they please will remain intact. Israel on the other hand will continue to be America's "enforcer" in the neighborhood at great loss to its people. More innocents will suffer everywhere.

[Behind the Aegis]

126. I, also, predict, little, very, very, little will change in the idiotic knee-jerking...

...of those that see the word "Israel" and predictably act as if Israel was Satan incarnate, despite religious figures being "verboten" among 'good' progressives. The remarkably stupid charges of 'genocide,' 'apartheid' and 'rogue nation,' will fly fast and furious because truth will never enter the equation in their minds when Israel is a factor.

[entanglement]

128. Partisan as ever, my friend?

FWIW, I am not a liberal, I'm an internationalist socialist. Just as I hold the ruling classes of Israel and their cheerleaders in America guilty for the brutality in the middle-east, so do I hold the ruling sheikhs responsible for their corruption, bigotry and medievalist oppression of their people.

But I'll never support imperialism, colonialism or racism. I'll never support collective punishment or second class-citizenship of the variety that Israel practices. Nor will I understand those like you who preach progressive values in America and support diametrically opposite values in Israel just because it's "your side".

I reject ethno-racial-religious supremacist philosophies and politics. I also reject narrow minded nationalist chauvinism, so I disagree with those on this thread who act as if the US ruling elite has no share of the blame and is somehow a "puppet" of Israel.

I will definitely oppose cheerleaders of any of these bankrupt and harmful philosophies.

Before you reply, consider that I'm not your enemy or an anti-Semite. If anything, my dream is to see workers all over the world, irrespective of race, nationality, orientation, gender or immigration status unite to form a just world with economic security, respect and freedom for all. But no support of oppression anywhere by anyone period.

[Behind the Aegis]

130. Sure, why not?

But it doesn't change what I said, now does it?

"Nor will I understand those like you who preach progressive values in America and support diametrically opposite values in Israel just because it's "your side"." You obviously don't understand me, but then again, it is another example of those like you who automatically see any defense of Israel as "blind devotion."

[FreeStateDemocrat]

129. A foreign country dictates US foreign policy publicly. LIEberman for Sec of State to appease Isreal.

The stick is BO's re-election bid will be undermined by AIPAc. Roll over and beg BO:

Jun 4, 2008 ... In his speech to AIPAC, Barack Obama laid out a very hard line position that was music to the ears of the pro-Israel lobby -- attempting to ...
firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/06/04/1109815.aspx

[Poll_Blind]

133. He did what he had to do to get elected. Appointing Rahm was....

...a smack in the face to many hardliners. It's unfortunate that so many here unable to see past the fact that Rahm is Israeli- he was responsible for the handshake between Arafat and Rabin at Oslo. That's what Rabin was killed by a Jewish terrorist for, btw. Peace makes some people hunger for blood.

  With Obama as the president, I see some positive movement in his first term. If you recall, Oslo was signed in Clinton's first term.

PB

[Mesteryo]

134. Israel has a right to express their opinion..

The anti-Israel crowd is certainly always willing to lecture Israel for its foreign policy and security decisions.

Also I'm sure no one minded when Israel told us that invading Iraq was a mistake.

Also I'd be pretty careful of sounding anti-semitic by asking if Obama will appoint Lieberman to appease Israel.

Next you'll ask if Obama was elected to appease Africa.