8-year-old arrested in double-homicide

[RamboLiberal]

Source: MSNBC

An 8-year-old Arizona boy may face double-murder charges in the shooting death of his father and another man at the family residence, The Arizona Republic reported Friday on its Web site.

The child is being held in juvenile custody for a hearing scheduled for Friday afternoon in Apache County Justice Court.

St. John Police Chief Roy Melnick told the newspaper that officers arrived at the home in the rural community of St. John in eastern Arizona within minutes of the shooting on Wednesday. They found one of the victims deceased just outside the front door and another dead in an upstairs room.

----

Arizona law generally holds that a child lacks competency to be held responsible for a homicide.

However, Melnick told the newspaper, “We think an exception can be made based on the facts and circumstances … This is precedent-setting. We're going to charge an 8-year-old with two counts of homicide."



Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27600105/

---

What is going on in that child's life that caused him to murder 2 people?

[LisaL]

1. And why did an 8 years old had access to guns?

[JerseygirlCT]

55. My first question, too

Kids get angry. Even unreasonably angry. Even out of control, probably need help angry.

But they should never, ever, ever, ever have access to guns. Ever.

[HeresyLives]

2. 2 men and an 8 year old boy

Take your best guess.

[RamboLiberal]

4. That's what I'm wondering

I would bet something horrible was happening in that house.

[LisaL]

5. Would police chief be saying he got to charge the boy based

on the circumstances?
I doubt it.

[HeresyLives]

9. 2 men in 2 different locations.

The boy knew how to handle guns, and it wasn't accidental. So they're charging him.

What we don't have is the reason.

[HeresyLives]

10. Well it could be

something silly and childlike. They wouldn't buy him an ipod or something. But my first thought was self-defense.

[LisaL]

11. Yea.

They might have forbade him from watching TV or something.

[MetaTrope]

3. Ah, guns, the great equalizers...

[superconnected]

6. Too bad his father can't be here to defend guns in the house.

[CountAllVotes]

14. no sh*t

:grr: :mad: :grr: :mad:

:dem: :kick:

[bperci108]

15. Uh.....

:wtf:

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

7. The vast majority of child murderers...

have killed their mother's abuser.

No idea if it applies here, but it's the best guess.

[olddad56]

37. sometimes that is the case, some times the child suffers from ...

a reactive attachment disorder.

[orleans]

39. found this:

Melnick said both victims worked at a nearby power plant. The child's stepmother was not home at the time, and there are no other children in the family, he said.
http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/news/articles/2008/11/08/20081108kidmurder1108.html

[Cronus Protagonist]

8. Darwin Award By Proxy

Seems appropriate.

[ohio2007]

12. his dad had it comming to him leaving an unlocked gun in the childs reach.

What's his mother have to say about it ?

[rst02]

51. WTF

Had it coming to him??????????????? That's just like saying a if a woman wearing a sexy outfit is raped that she had it coming to her because of the outfit? I don't think the father or anyone else would have ever thought his 8 year old would kill him and another.

[LostinVA]

58. It is very irresponsible to leave guns unlocked, but he certainly didn't "have it comming to him"

I think the sexy outfit=rape analogy another poster used is apt.

[curse of greyface]

75. Had it coming to him is wrong. NT

[Nevernose]

13. Premeditated murder -- original article

http://www.wmicentral.com/site/news.cfm?newsid=20190155&BRD=2264&PAG=461&dept_id=505965&rfi=6

...
Chief Deputy Apache County Attorney Brad Carlyon told The Independent his office is prepared to prosecute the youngster to the fullest extent of the law. "Charges of premeditated murder have been filed against Christian Romero in the Apache County Juvenile Court. The Apache County Attorney's Office is exploring all possible means of handling this matter given the juvenile's age and the heinous manner in which the killings were done."
...

[zelta gaisma]

21. ok sooooo....?

what exactly happened?! premeditated murder have been filed against Christian Romero?? can an 8yr old even plan a murder? almost all the 8yr olds I've ever known have trouble planning their DAY without an adults help. *MY* 1st thought is how long have those 2 adults been raping the boy? that's the only thing I can think of that would drive an 8yr old to plan a murder. maybe I'm giving the kid more sympathy than deserved I don't know

[Nevernose]

31. I was just posting a link, however

In Nevada the age at which a child can be held responsible for their own actions is 7. So a six year old steals a candy bar from the store, the mother could be charged with shoplifting; an eight year old steals the candy bar, he was old enough to know what he was doing is wrong. Either way, you obviously don't drag a little kid off to jail -- but I don't know WHAT the hell you do with an eight year who just killed two people.

By the way, kids that age do terrible things for no reason at all, every day, in every city. The person who deserves to be in jail was the person who left a gun where an eight year old could get to it.

[zelta gaisma]

54. oh! i get it now :)and..

I totally agree the gun owner should be charged with the bigger crime the kid should 1st and foremost get counseling. yeah kids that young do terrible things but how many plan those terrible things out? moet that young think it and do it with little to no thought in between.

[Shardik]

25. Holy shit. They want to strap an eight year old down and put a needle in his arm?

Why not? They probably believe easy access to guns had nothing to do with it either.

[msanthrope]

35. I'm betting Apache County dropped the ball on this kid....

you don't get this kind of full-force over-charging without a reason--a CYA reason. As in, someone didn't follow up on the report/charge/allegation concerning this kid....

An 8-year old who has done these things needs to be in a hospital.

And some asshole, somewhere, not only left a gun where an 8-year old could get a hold of it--they taught him how to shoot it.

[LisaL]

46. The articles I've read said the kid has never been in trouble,

and there are no reports with CPS of any kind.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/08/child.charged.ap/index.html

[rebel with a cause]

16. I hate to say this again but I worked with children with behavior disorders

and some of these children were very capable of planning and carrying out killings. As young as 8, 9, and 10 year olds were treated as dangerous. We had one case where a child had attempted to kill his teacher. A very charming little boy, he reminded me of what Ted Bundy might have been like as a child. While in the facility, he was treated with caution although he was nine years old. He ran away from the facility (I was not on duty at the time) and was caught about eight hours later. He had robbed a home where the people were gone on vacation. Stolen a gun, fishing equipment and money. He then hid these items (except for a gun) and went to a nearby house where he told the people that he was lost, had been abandoned by his parents and begged them for food. They fed him and secretly called the police, thinking that he had been abandoned.

When the police showed up, the child was outraged. He told them that he wish he had just went ahead and killed them instead of waiting until they went to sleep. He was returned to us, a facility with unlocked rooms and easy access to the unsuspecting world. And there was no history of this child being abused, in fact he was thought to be over indulged by his parents.

It is sad to say but there are children out there that are very capable of planning and carrying out things that we use to not think children would be capable of doing. I don't know. Has our society changed or were children always capable of such things and we were too naive to know it? :shrug:

[BeliQueen]

17. That's a chilling story.

[ChazII]

18. Having had 2 similar students

in my 28 years of teaching, I would say we were a bit naive with a whole lot of society changing.

[AlbertCat]

19. Has our society changed or were children always capable of such things and we were too naive to know

Perhaps it's time to stop thinking of all children as being the "same"...a child. Children also know about sex too an can reek havoc with that notion "Children don't do that". Oh yes they do. Ever heard of the "Little Rascals" case in NC? Ever read Lillian Hellman's "The Children's Hour"? Children are not stupid.

[rebel with a cause]

23. I spent part of my time working with sexual predators that were children.

They all had been sexually abused in one way or another, so I am far from being naive about that.

As far as the two cited things you mentioned. The day care case was not the children's fault as much as it was the parent's and investigators. The initial parents were obsessed with sexual abuse and questioned the children excessively, planting thoughts in the child's mind. Then when the investigation began, the same was done by the investigator. children are very easily influenced.

I knew a woman that was convinced her little blond blue eyed daughter was going to be sexually molested, either by a pedophile or a satanic cult. She talked endlessly about this in front of the three year old child. The child then brought accusations against anyone that she was left with while her mother worked. I refused to keep her, I didn't think I wanted to deal with it.

"The Children's Hour" is a work of fiction and is concerning adolescents. The adults in the play carry as much guilt as the children do it this work, and I believe it is more a criticism of society than it is anything. That the women should be punished for being lesbians, whether it is true or not, is the act of unreason. And that one of the women kills herself when she realizes that she is a lesbian is also a call against society, that she has been made to feel so guilty for her feelings.

The child that is capable of killing is thought to be the unbonded child. It is one without a conscience. Some think it is due to the child not bonding with its mother, and others feel the child is born this way. Again the nurture vs nature argument.

[LisaL]

30. Children are easily influenced. Which makes me wonder as

to what evidence police actually got against the kid. He's only 8-how would someone that age be able to carry this out?

[rebel with a cause]

32. They could carry it out under certain cercumstances, I believe.

But it would be interesting to watch the questioning of the child, because you have to be very careful when you do this. During an investigative questioning you cannot suggest anything to a child, because they are more apt to agree with it. Even teenagers have been known to confess to things they did not do because the police convinced them that they should confess. "You can go home if you just say you did it." "We'll understand if you say you did it." For an eight year old. "Your mommy will come in to get you as soon as you tell us you shot your daddy." Yeah, it would really be interesting to see the questioning of an eight year old murderer.

[LisaL]

33. For a child to be able to carry it out, he'd have to be

trained on how to use a gun and shoot, I presume.
I for one would like to know if police got any physical evidence, because an adult can easily influence the child to say things that are not true.

[LostinVA]

60. Society hasn't sudden;y started "producing" socipaths -- they've always been around

They are born that way. OIne study suggests they are 20:1 in society. Not all of those one in 20 are Ted Bundy's -- most are "low-level" sociopaths. A great book about this is,"The Sociopath Next Door."

Some people are hard-wired wrong -- it can't be fixed.

[NuttyFluffers]

27. we're only recently playing naive.

most world cultures always recognized that children were just "little adults," meaning that they are human just like everyone else. on average they may not know as much as an adult, but not all children are the same or have the same sheltered experiences. humans of all stripes have the capacity to learn fast and be deadly. just because the vast majority have humanity and compassion stopping them doesn't mean they *all* do. when you look into the eyes of another person, remember: there's another consciousness looking back at you -- and not all of consciousnesses develop accordingly to standard norms of our charts and graphs.

[msanthrope]

36. Really. Your story reeks of poor training and BS.

Any intelligent person who has worked with children in crisis knows that over-indulgence is a classic sign of abuse....

Shall I tell you about how many kids I've represented who were given Playstations by their abusers??? It's how smart child abusers work.

Open your eyes...kids who are 'overindulged' are being abused, and usually, to some nefarious end.

[rebel with a cause]

38. deleted by poster because this is not worth it.

[LostinVA]

61. Oh brother

[InvisibleTouch]

42. There are psychopaths in the world...

...who are just born that way, for no discernible reason, who were raised in loving homes, not abused or neglected, and just don't seem to have a "soul." Like a genetic defect. Don't know if it applies in this particular case, of course, but it does exist.

[LostinVA]

59. My first two thoughts: abusive father or the kid's a sociopath

If it's the latter, then Arizona will have a murderous sociopath on the loose in a bit more than a decade, with no criminal record.

[qwlauren35]

71. Nobody wants to believe me when I say it's video games...

and violent movies.

So, I'll just point out another fact - young boys in Iraq probably know how to hold and fire a gun. Is anyone really surprised?

[Occulus]

77. That's probably because you're just wrong on that point

We gamers have been being told this for years decades, and it's just an idiotically stupid and tired old argument that we know beyond doubt to be completely untrue.

Here, I'll say it real loud and clear so you get it:

CORRELATION DOES NOT EQUAL CAUSATION.

That one study I bet you're about to refer to has been debunked several time on this board and others, as well as scientifically, I believe. That said, while there are deeply disturbing games out there, these are games that are explicitly made for adults, and certainly not for children aged in the single digit range.

I grew up on video games as my choice entertainment (my first console was an brand new Atari 2600- when it was the "in thing"). I watched then, and watch today, very little television. I prefer games for their exquisite ability to "put you there", and if I ever am in the position to start a new career, game design is where I'll go. I've even developed concepts for one or two already.

The video game industry is bigger than Hollywood.

If this kid was playing Dead Space, or something similar, his parents were "doin' it rong".

[curse of greyface]

20. Well this is wrong.. very wrong. Should not be tried as an adult.

to quote a favorite movie of mine.

"I don't think anything bad ought to happen to children. I think the bad stuff should be saved up for the people whose grown up. That's the way I see it"


Man that Billy Bob Thorton brings tears to my eyes everytime.

[Mojorabbit]

22. Perhaps some

children as young as this exhibit sociopathic behaviour. I don't know but it seems plausible.

[Marrah_G]

24. My former sister in law did from a very young age

There were 17 years between she and I. I remember her at age 2 biting my thigh so hard it drew blood because I would not let her in her room because she kept tearing it apart. I blocked the door with my body and she bit me clear through my pants.

When she was age 5, I was 8 months pregnant and had to drag her from a supermarket where whe was throwing things off shelves ... as I was trying to get her into the car she was violently trying to kick my stomach while screaming " I will kill your baby"

She was very violent towards her mother.

We tried everything to help her.

She spent most of her young life in special schools and hospitals. Getting her placed so she would not hurt herself or others was always a struggle.

She is 21 now and out in the world.

Were I to hear she was a mass murderer I would not be surprised. I honestly would say "saw that coming".

Some brains are born defective, it is a sad truth.

[LostinVA]

63. Ted Bundy's relatives cite situations from when he was as young as two or three

[mopinko]

26. i do not think that the old freudian idea of cause and effect is correct.

we would all like the world to be like that- actions have roots, evil begets evil, good begets good. i think that is so simplistic as to be false. yes, bad things can have a bad influence, but the same bad things might happen to another person, and have no impact. and a kid who had everything can turn out to be a psychopath. the human mind is far to complex for such a simple, straight line explanation to be of any use. some brains are just broken. even at 8.
of course such children have always been with us. would we have a juvenile justice system if they had not?

[goodgd_yall]

67. Have you read Alice Miller?

In particular "For Your Own Good: Hidden Cruelty in Child-Rearing and the Roots of Violence." In this book she puts forth some ideas of why two people can be raised in similarly cruel or abusive environments yet turn out differently, one a sociopath and another an empathetic human being.

[mopinko]

72. i don't mean to imply that monsters cannot be made, just that

some monsters are born. and most people are pretty much who their genes and other physiologies make them. even the way that events shape them is inturn shaped by who they are born. the equation is not simple, is all i am trying to say.
i am aware of alice millers work, but have never read the book. nonetheless, i very, very rarely resorted to any kind of violence against my children. yelling, yes. hitting? almost never. beating? never, ever.

[Shardik]

28. Children "act out."

Their brains do not act like adult brains and look at consequences of actions or ramifications.

Adults are supposed to as in their responsibilities of safe gun ownership.

[Libertyfirst]

29. Anyone else read the novel "The Bad Seed"?

Not saying that it applies in this case, but it was a very chilling story of a child murderer.

[livetohike]

57. The movie terrified me when I was a kid

:scared:

[bitchkitty]

82. My big sis and I had a sick sense of humor.

We laughed uproariously throughout the film. After that, when we were fighting, screaming "I'll hit you with my shoe!" would cause us both to collapse in laughter and forget the fight.

[Maine-ah]

34. A lot of interesting thoughts in this thread about the boy

but what about the boy's mother? Where was she? I suppose it could be possible Mom set the boy up, thinking they wouldn't charge an 8 year old boy.

No suggestion of that in the article, but it certainly could be a possibility.

[LisaL]

47. The mother lives in Mississippi.

[Maine-ah]

48. ah, thank you

must have missed that in the article :hi:

[appleannie1]

56. And she had visited this weekend.

[goodgd_yall]

65. Are you thinking of the case that was on TV ?

I was thinking that scenario that you mentioned too but only because there was a TV show about a case in which it was claimed the mother set up her son.

[Skip Intro]

40. What's going on in anyone's life that causes them to kill another person? nt

[Chulanowa]

41. Well, if only the liberals had let those two men have guns!

Amirite?!

[Coventina]

43. This is a very difficult situation. And it almost happened to me.

I'm reluctant to post the story, for the sake of all involved, because fortunately tragedy was averted.

But anyone who thinks that children aren't capable of murder either have forgotten their childhood or have never worked with children. That's not to say that they fully understand the ramifications of their act, but they can and do sometimes want to inflict the maximum harm to others, to completely eliminate them.

I don't think this kid should be tried as an adult. But I also don't think that he should get a "clean slate" at 18 either. Murdering two people isn't something anyone should be able to walk away from, ever.

[goodgd_yall]

68. At that age

you have few options, or think you have few. You're still dependent on your parents, yet they can be the source of misery when there is abuse. Already, if raised in that environment, you may not trust other adults, so you think of taking things in your own hands. Having guns available can make something that is a fantasy, come to life.

[Coventina]

70. I suppose we'll learn more as the case unfolds.

Certainly, if the kid was subjected to horrific abuse that would be extenuating circumstances. We'll have to wait and see.

The child who nearly killed me was not abused in the classical sense, but his parents were going through a messy divorce at the time.

[FedUpWithIt All]

44. The police questioned the boy without representation.

Defense attorney Benjamin Brewer argued Friday that police overreached in questioning the boy without representation from a parent or attorney and did not advise him of his rights.

"They became very accusing early on in the interview," Brewer said. "Two officers with guns at their side, it's very scary for anybody, for sure an 8-year-old kid."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27600105/

[LisaL]

45. If he was not represented by a parent-well, his father is dead

and the mother doesn't live with the father. I dunno, but since the kid is accused of killing the parent, it strikes me as ironic that defense lawyer is complaining the kid was not represented by a parent.
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/11/08/child.charged.ap/index.html

[demwing]

53. "Parent OR Attorney" /nt

[FedUpWithIt All]

78. He has the legal right to some sort of representation. n/t

[mopinko]

73. those cops got what they projected. willing to bet.

why the hell would they even talk to that kid without an attorney? and without a specialist in interviewing kids?
i would put up a few bucks right here that this case is thrown out of court, and this story is not even close to what really happened. not that we will find that out now that these bozos have poisoned the well, but....

[FedUpWithIt All]

79. It just seems to incredibly foolish and irresponsible to ignore his rights like that.

:shrug:

What on earth were they thinking?

[mopinko]

83. they weren't.

thinking doesn't seem to have been part of the plan. seriously, tho, at this date and time, how could these cops have not known better than to tread lightly interviewing a kid. let alone interrogating a kid. don't they even watch law and order?

[villager]

49. 8 Year Old Arizona Boy Shoots, Kills 2 -- including dad

Source: AP

Ariz. boy, 8, accused of killing 2, including dad



By FELICIA FONSECA, Associated Press Writer Felicia Fonseca, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 10 mins ago

FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. – It's a crime that police officers in a small eastern Arizona community can hardly fathom yet have to deal with: an 8-year-old charged in the fatal shootings of his father and another man.

"Who would think an 8-year-old kid could kill two adults?" St. Johns Police Chief Roy Melnick said Friday.

The killings on Wednesday sent shock waves through St. Johns, a community of about 4,000 people. The boy had no disciplinary record at school, and there was no indication he had any problems at home, prosecutors said.

"It was such a tragedy," said the boy's defense attorney, Benjamin Brewer. "You have two people dead; you have an 8-year-old in jail. It tugs at the heart strings. It's a shocker, no doubt about it."

On Friday, a judge determined there was probable cause to show that the boy fatally shot his father, Vincent Romero, 29, and Timothy Romans, 39, of San Carlos, with a .22-caliber rifle. The boy faces two counts of premeditated murder. Under Arizona law, charges can be filed against anyone 8 or older.

Melnick said the boy didn't act on the "spur of the moment," though he didn't elaborate on what the motive might have been.

<snip>


Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081108/ap_on_re_us/child_charged

[msongs]

50. yet ANOTHER 8 year old stands up for his second amendment rights to shoot & kill people nt

[PfcHammer]

52. IF dad was pack'n he could've fired back and defended

hisself.:eyes:

[goodgd_yall]

62. My first reacion was

"poor kid!" Yeah, his dad and friend(?) were killed, but I don't know if there was a reason for the child to kill his father and all I could think was that the boy must have been treated badly to do that. And to kill to stop the pain means he was suffering. This is all my first reaction without knowing what will eventually be learned.

[investintrains]

64. Rupert Murdoch and other tv violence programmers bear some respons.

Rupert Murdoch and other tv violence programmers bear some responsibility for the murders

[curse of greyface]

74. Bullshit. Spongebob didn't kill these men nt

[secondwind]

66. the latest I heard was that they were looking into abuse of some sort

[undeterred]

69. Look at how many television shows there are on murder

and I mean the shows about real homicide stories. Children watch these and see ordinary people commit murder. They have no real understanding of consequences.

I think the police should have immediately made sure that there was somebody like a parent or an appointed attorney looking out for this child's rights. Even if he is a sociopath he has the right to an adult's judgment.

[CRF450]

81. The obvious problem is some kind of abuse between the parents or towards the child

If the parents are doing their jobs AS PARENTS, tv shows or violent video games wouldn't have that kind of influence on a kid's mind.

[bitchkitty]

76. I want to know the reason...

Eight years old? I was playing with Barbies, or playing in the sprinklers, or riding my bike - all the things that 3rd graders do.

I have to know the reason. What really scares me is, what if there is no clear reason?

[npk]

80. This case has the Supreme Court written all over it

If they do proceed and try the child for two counts of murder, the Supreme Court will likely over turn the decision, if it even gets to that point. They will have a hard time proving competency and intent. The latter must show that the child intended to cause serious bodily injury or death in this case. Competency goes back to proving intent. Does an 8 year old understand that when he pulls the trigger and shoots somebody, that said somebody will in fact be dead to the same level that a competent adult would understand that shooting somebody will likely cause death. These kind of cases never have a good outcome. The child will most likely be placed in state run mental facility for lack of a better word, and will remain there for the rest of his childhood. But I don't see the murder charges sticking.

Another thing I found interesting in reading this story is how an 8 year would have been able to squeeze the trigger. I mean obviously he managed, but man that is strange. Depending on the gun, most guns have a considerable pounds of pressure to pull the trigger. For example a Smith and Wesson .45 caliber hand gun requires about 8 pounds of force in the trigger finger to completely pull the trigger.