Church fury as coma woman allowed to die

[Swede]

Source: The Independant

Italy's Supreme Court provoked the fury of conservatives yesterday by ruling that a father can disconnect the feeding tube that has kept his daughter alive in a coma for nearly 17 years.


In one of the most painfully emotive cases this Catholic country has confronted for years, the court overturned the earlier rejection by an appeal court of the father's right to end his daughter's life. The ruling was denounced by conservatives as the legalisation of euthanasia in Italy, but by the father, Beppino Englaro, as "a way out of hell".



Read more: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/church-fury-as-coma-woman-allowed-to-die-1017959.html

[DesertFlower]

1. well i guess they're all going to hell. nt

[Ohio Joe]

2. RIP

I think the family and the doctor are best able to determine this.

[roguevalley]

11. where were they when I had to make the decision on my mother? how do they

have the fucking gall? I hope they have their affairs in order. it can happen to anyone at any time. Then they will find out how awful it is to LOVE SOMEONE enough to let them go. My mother knows that her freedom was bought by my undying and neverending love for her. Fuck these people who do this.

[Tansy_Gold]

21. been there, done that, and I share your justifiable anger.

Fuck 'em.

:hug:


Tansy Gold

[roguevalley]

22. aw, Tansy, hugs back to you.

RV---> :hug:

[thraxis]

32. If it is a sin to prevent a life from coming into the world, then it is

also a sin to interfere with the natural death process.

[Book Lover]

40. Then would not the proper thing to do be to remove the

mechanisms keeping the lungs artificially operating?


on edit: spelling

[thraxis]

51. I am merely making an observation about how easy it is to justify

something.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

3. Catholics are pro life..consistently.

They are anti abortion, anti capitol punishment, and anti euthanasia. You have to give them one thing: At least they're consistent.
Duckie

[kestrel91316]

5. I wouldn't put it past these uber-pro-life types to insist on putting

artificial hearts into dying people to keep them "alive" longer.

You KNOW they would, if they could.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

7. Well, until they get artificial brains...

...there is no really saving someone.
Duckie

[kestrel91316]

9. They don't care if a body has a comatose brain or a dead one,

it's all still just as important to them as you or me.

And if it's a female body, there's always the potential to use it to grow those abandoned frozen embryos languishing in freezers........

[Crunchy Frog]

14. You would think that they don't believe in the immortal soul or eternal life.

[Delphinus]

23. I

KNOW!

That's the thing that's always confused me - why are they so afraid of going to their 'heavenly reward'? And/or letting others go.

[LeftishBrit]

24. Horrifying...

and yet most of these Religious Right types support economic policies that lead to many preventable deaths. It's sick; they will worry about the right to life of stem cells, and of unfortunate people who have NO chance of ever regaining consciousness; yet the horrible gaps in infant mortality levels and life expectancy between rich and poor don't sem to bother them at all.

In the UK, you can have a living will if you don't want to be treated like this. I don't know what are the rules in Italy.

[HeresyLives]

8. Well, except for the stakes

and bonfires of course.

[hlthe2b]

12. Yes... although the Vatican certainly gave Bush* "cover" for

his illegal war with Iraq... Unfortunately, there is precedence for such walking a fine line with respect to war crimes in recent history.

I respect Catholics-- but I have considerable trouble with Catholic hierarchy.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

34. WAit...

That is actually not true. The Pope actually constantly condemned the war was unjust and uncalled for.
Duckie

[hlthe2b]

39. Ratzinger may have condemned but gave Bush* cover

nonetheless--same as he has with respect to Gitmo, Abu Gharaib, extraordinary rendition, torture and captitol punishment. All talk, no action. (except when it comes to pro-choice Dems, of course--we must excommunicate THEM)

[YellowRubberDuckie]

48. When have they ever done anything but talk to our nation?

There's not a lot the Vatican can do to Bush.
Duckie

[hlthe2b]

50. they send out their Archbishops to excommunicate

(or at least refuse communion to)Catholic politicians and their supporters who happen to hold pro-choice positions, help Bush* and his RW cronies get elected and you say they have no power? If the Vatican really meant it when they claim to condemn killing though war, capitol punishment, or the myriad of war crimes committed by this administration, then American Catholics would be sent fleeing from supporting Republicans. Quite the opposite, in fact. Only the issue of abortion REALLY matters, it seems, when it comes to "sanctity of life."

I have Catholic roots myself and am far from "anti-Catholic." Just anti-hierarchy... Especially Ratzinger...

[SharonAnn]

18. Well, some of them aren't anti-war. So that's not very consistent.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

35. SOME...

But the Pope has condemned the war on many occasions.
Duckie

[PassingFair]

19. I have known many to be actively pro-war.

Even when the war is "unjust" in their
own criteria.

[John Q. Citizen]

20. Yeah, but they don't deny communon if you vote for a pro death penalty politician.

[mondo joe]

25. If you don't count being serious about war, death penalty, poverty.

And if you don't count denying communion to Republicans who support those lethal choices.

[YellowRubberDuckie]

36. They are anti death penalty, poverty, war.

Maybe not some American Catholics, but the Vatican has been calling for an end to the Iraq war for some time now, and have you not ever heard of Catholic Charities? I know more Catholics against the death penalty than anyone. I have no idea what you're talking about. The decrees from the Vatican has condemned everything you are talking about.
Duckie

[Book Lover]

41. Not really

When Church law carves out an exception to justify war, it is an inconsistency.

[fed_up_mother]

43. The just war theory

People have a right to self defense, but only a defense that is proportional to the attack.

I'm very much against the Iraq war, but I do believe in a just war theory. You don't have to be a pacifist to be a liberal.

[Book Lover]

44. My point is not what your or my opinion is, but

pointing out the inconsistent position of the Church. Which by the way does not care one whit what you or I in the pews think (not that I am in the pews anymore, but you take my meaning).

[fed_up_mother]

45. There's nothing inconsistent about the just war theory

[Book Lover]

46. Killing is killing

and is wrong. If it is a grave moral wrong, it can never be right.

Please understand: I am not myself advocating complete pacifism; I am pointing out that the Church says it is against all killing... well, except for these instances. That would be fine with me if the Church did not publicly proclaim that it is against all killing. Because it is not, clearly.

[fed_up_mother]

52. Actually, there is a difference between killing and murder

And the commandment is actually "Thou shall not murder." It's translated killing, but there are different words for killing and murder in Hebrew. Killing in self defense and as a last resort is not considered wrong.

Peace. :)

[YellowRubberDuckie]

49. The exception is in situations like what happened during World War 2.

Not Iraq.
Duckie

[Book Lover]

54. I think you misunderstand me

I understand the Church says there are exceptions. My point is that on the one hand, they proclaim that the Seamless Garment position is absolute; on the other, they carve out this exception.

[Doremus]

53. Are they also anti-war?

Not being snarky, just asking if you know. Thanks.

[gateley]

4. Pope John Paul II said he didn't want to be kept alive by any such measures,

so this should be okay, too. Why don't they just leave it up to their God? If He wants her to live, she will, regardless of whether or not she's on life support -- right? Right?

[DRoseDARs]

15. Yeah, I remember Bill Donahue railing against PJP2's anti-Catholicism...

:sarcasm:

[YellowRubberDuckie]

37. I have no idea who or what you are talking about.

[...of J.Temperance]

6. I'm sure that this man faced the WORST decision of his life

His final act of love for his child, was allowing her to pass with a degree of dignity, his choice to do this is HIS business and NO business of the fanatical so-called pro-Life crowd.

I'm completely in support of the legalisation of Euthanasia, people with no hope of recovering to a sufficient quality of life should be allowed to die with dignity.

[juno jones]

10. We just passed such a bill in WA state

By a decent margin IIRC.

[...of J.Temperance]

13. Hopefully more will follow

I believe it's one of the greatest acts of compassion that a person can show another person, to help them put a stop to their suffering and assist them to die with dignity.

[MadMaddie]

17. Yes we did...I get so tired of explaining to those that didn't

vote yes on it...

I explain that it is not my right to tell someone who has devastating bone cancer or catstrophic disiese that must live in excruciating pain.

I don't want anyone to tell me that it's not my choice in that situation.

[juno jones]

26. I watched both of my parents die of cancer.

I don't know if they would have availed themselves of the choice. But I want to have that choice if it ever gets that bad. Doesn't mean I would use it, but I saw how my parents lost their lives after years of illness. Things that once gave joy became pain. My father (who had multiple myloma, a bone cancer) became so sensitive under chemo that certain colors made him ill and he could not listen to music anymore(he loved jazz) because it physically hurt to do so. I felt a certain peace when he died. I cry for him now and again I miss him so much, but at the time, I could only be glad that he was out of pain.

I voted yes. Thanks for supporting this too.

[Joanne98]

30. My father died of cancer. The doctors said they never saw anyone suffer like that.

I don't know if he would have committed suicide though. He had a life insurance policy for 25,000$. He probably thought that if he did it wouldn't be good. Ironically, the policy wasn't good because he missed the last payment because he was so sick. There are no words to describe how much I hate insurance companies. Kramer told his audience to SELL them (life) last night. I laughed my ass off. It seems they sold a bunch of "out of work" policies that they can't pay now. Expect the bastards to be in DC asking for bailout money any day now. I hope they all go bankrupt.

Anyway, I think it's EVIL to make dying people suffer. But if you change the laws make sure to change them for life insurance companies too. Because they will screw the families.

[juno jones]

55. I agree

Thank you on the perspective. I lack insurance, for the most part, so I don't think of that.

[meow2u3]

16. I don't see anything wrong with allowing natural death to occur

It's not like they're deliberately putting her to sleep like a sick animal.

[MindPilot]

27. making people suffer is what religion is all about

That is why they want to make terminally ill people and their families live as long as possible in as much agony as possible. That's why they molest children, stone 13 year-old rape victims to death and and reduce women to baby factories. The more people on the planet, the more pollution, famine, disease and poverty. All so "people of faith" can sit in their churches, mosques and synagogues and feel good about themselves.

[Joanne98]

31. True

[NYC Liberal]

28. Why is allowing the woman's life to take its natural course bad?

I don't get it. Why don't they think all these machines are just "playing god"?

[Joanne98]

29. People die of hunger and thirst everyday in this world.

I'll have NO respect for Christians until they quit kissing the ass of capitalism. To me they are all just a bunch of frauds! We need a religious LEFT movement.

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[Locrian]

38. I just dont get it

I just dont get it - why doing all this to keep her alive not interfering with "gods plan" ? I mean whats next? Start trying to raise people from the dead?!

[and-justice-for-all]

42. Will the church ever learn to mind their own fucking business!! nt

[zelta gaisma]

47. now don't you know your life and death ARE their bu$ine$$??