Sought: Wal-Mart Shoppers Who Trampled NY Worker

[Hissyspit]

Source: Associated Press

Sought: Wal-Mart shoppers who trampled NY worker

By COLLEEN LONG, Associated Press Writer – 47 mins ago

NEW YORK – Police were reviewing video from surveillance cameras in an attempt to identify who trampled to death a Wal-Mart worker after a crowd of post-Thanksgiving shoppers burst through the doors at a suburban store and knocked him down.

Criminal charges were possible, but identifying individual shoppers in Friday's video may prove difficult, said Detective Lt. Michael Fleming, a Nassau County police spokesman. Other workers were trampled as they tried to rescue the man, and customers stepped over him and became irate when officials said the store was closing because of the death, police and witnesses said.

At least four other people, including a woman who was eight months pregnant, were taken to hospitals for observation or minor injuries. The store in Valley Stream on Long Island closed for several hours before reopening.

Police said about 2,000 people were gathered outside the Wal-Mart doors before its 5 a.m. opening at a mall about 20 miles east of Manhattan. The impatient crowd knocked the employee, identified by police as Jdimytai Damour, to the ground as he opened the doors, leaving a metal portion of the frame crumpled like an accordion. "This crowd was out of control," Fleming said. He described the scene as "utter chaos," and said the store didn't have enough security.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081129/ap_on_re_us/wal_mart_death

[tularetom]

1. IMO they don't have to look very far if they want to affix blame

and it has nothing to do with any shoppers. Haul the manager of the Walmart in and throw his ass in jail. And go after the Walmart directors and officers who encourage or insist upon these kinds of mob scenes.

[Hugin]

3. Eh, you beat me to it.

I'll have to be faster next time.

[WriteDown]

33. Yep, damn them for offering such attractive sales....

:sarcasm:

[Oak2004]

41. See my link below

posted in #37 ( http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=3622669&mesg_id=3622918 -- sorry but I can never get urls to display with a short text link here).

It's called crowd crazing, and it is negligence. There are other, safer, ways to have a sale and attract crowds.

[Hannah Bell]

64. Worth posting some of that:

Crowd Crazing

(updated 20th February 2006)

Keywords: Overcrowding, simulating people, simulating crowds


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Crowd crazing is the term used when a promoter markets/hypes a product or offer in order to create a large, excited crowd. It is a VERY dangerous practice and has resulted in many deaths around the world. We are specifically concerned about this practice when it is a DELIBERATE strategy to create unmanageable Crowd Dynamics.

2001 (December 18th)

Free Christmas Gift Distribution Creates Crush And Death. Four people died, including three children, when a poorly planned and managed government sponsored Christmas gift giveaway program for children went awry in Aracaju, Brazil. Forty to forty-five thousand people showed up at a public building for the holiday event, approximately the crowd size anticipated. Tens of thousands of people waiting to receive their free gifts were caught in a craze when one of the main gates opened triggering a surge and crush, according to local news reports. In spite of the deaths, government authorities continued the distribution of toys, after order was restored.

etc. (more cases)

It also disproves the assertion that there's something peculiarly american (selfish, greedy, consumerist) about the case.

[yardwork]

42. Companies have a legal obligation to provide a reasonably safe environment.

Wal-Mart was grossly negligent in this instance.

[WriteDown]

43. You can throw Toys R Us in that mix as well...

See that thread too.

[Acadia Blue]

58. Yes, and Wal Mart is at fault for not having security and gigantic

crowds with no plan of security.
I hope the family sues these pigs and wins big.

[qanda]

51. Best Buy passes out tickets to people in line (first come, first serve)

It's the most fair and safe way to do it. If people don't use their ticket by 9 am, they sell the remaining items to those who are willing to wait in an orderly line at the customer service counter.

[heliarc]

56. Wal-mart will likely collect on his life insurance policy too.

http://wakeupwalmart.com/news/article.html?article=1530

I hate Wal-mart. They make my skin crawl.

[lebkuchen]

40. Is Walmart unionized?

I live overseas and wonder if employees are protected by a union.

Walmart no longer exists in Germany. When it did exist, German workers' rights to on-the-job protection and full medical care were fully covered, by German law.

[surrealAmerican]

46. Certainly NOT.

They would sooner close down their stores than allow a union to organize.

[lebkuchen]

48. That's what happened in Germany, and they're gone now

I think it's past time for unionization to come to Walmart. They either compete with other businesses on a level playing field or hit the road.

Employee safety should never be compromised for great profits. That's unAmerican, or should be.

[Vidar]

67. Give them a choice: permit unions, or the government will seize alr industry assets

& nationalize the damned monopoly.

[ZombieHorde]

61. "nothing to do with any shoppers"

Some of the shoppers pushed the people in front of them, otherwise, this would not have happened.

[crys630]

63. Wal-Mart thinks they have nothing to account for

I live in Arkansas about 30 min away from the headquarters and Wal-Mart thinks they don't have to account for anything. For god sakes a couple of days before Thanksgiving I caught one of their employees in the parking lot giving head to someone. When it was brought to managements attention they said it would be taken care of. She was fired, yet a male manager thought that was to harsh of a punishment and gave her her job back. Well she now brags that she has had sex not just a blowjob in their garden center at least three different times. And customers saw her at least once because they told her to get a room where she told the customers to pay for her to get one and she would. The night before she was caught giving head she was talked to about the fact that she was grabbing customers butts and treating to hit customers. Are they going to wait until a child sees this because I won't take my children to Wal-Mart until they get rid of her for fear that my children will get a sexual education lesson from there.

[Hugin]

2. Did the security cams catch a picture of a...

Big blue sign with seven letters emblazoned on it?

Sure, I want those directly responsible punished, but, before they release the dogs. Why not work on preventing
future disasters.

Before you flame... Arresting the people who trampled the man will put a few people away for years, but, they'll
just be replaced by a few more people during the next tragedy. A tragedy that -will- happen, because Wal-mart will not
have suffered any negative consequences and will continue with the 'business as usual' SOP.

[yardwork]

44. Also, the people who actually trampled the man probably didn't intend to do so.

When a mass of people becomes this large, there is tons of pressure on the people in front. It's simple physics. The people in front can't withstand the pressure - they are literally forced forward and must run for their own lives, lest they themselves fall down and be trampled to death by the people behind them.

[JNelson6563]

4. The one good thing about this horrible story

The cops closed that WalMart down. Think of all the business that was lost. I appreciate the irony of that though it hardly makes up for this tragedy, of course.

Julie

[no_hypocrisy]

5. The police could interview the first 100 or so who paid by debit or credit card.

Those with cash may well escape interrogation.

[ohio2007]

13. I think you nailed a good angle. Plenty of faces in that crowd to ID also

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_XqWhC3Pxc&feature=related

How hard could it be toget those people rounded up ?

Did the WalMart doors once a few years ago, never again.
'Black friday' greed kills
to many animals, not enough "stuf"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bhp1ElO4MiA&feature=related


Wal-Mart can LEARN from this best buy video
outside human crowd control door blockade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHYE7dOFzr4&NR=1

[Merlot]

21. The people in the front were being pushed by the people behind them

there is no way they could not move forward. A crowd of 2000 pushing on them? Forget it. It's not the peoples fault, it's the store's fault for lack of crowd management.

ps. I worked in the airline industry boarding planes and know a little about crowd control.

[Edweird]

6. "customers stepped over him and became irate when officials said the store was closing"

"Other workers were trampled as they tried to rescue the man, and customers stepped over him and became irate when officials said the store was closing because of the death, police and witnesses said."

The problem here isn't walmart. It's the people IN walmart. I'm no fan of walmart, but these people are dirtbags, and THEY are the reason that employee is dead.

[geomon666]

7. Treat people like animals and they become animals. n/t

[ohio2007]

14. greed turns humans into animals

this is how its done, crowd control from the outside

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHYE7dOFzr4&NR=1

[DBoon]

17. capitalism turns people into animals

capitalism elevates greed into the only virtue

[WriteDown]

34. Bluray turns people into animals. nt

[ohio2007]

53. and soylent green is made out of people

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Sp-VFBbjpE

[liberal N proud]

8. Credit card transactions

Haul everyone in who payed with Credit Cards that morning for questioning at the very least.

[FarCenter]

11. Right, bring them in, match them up on the video, and then

question them about the identities of everyone else around them on the video.

Eventually you will get to the perps.

[Deja Q]

9. Well, as all the customers did their part - arrest them all. At leats we're not in Iran...

where the same people would likely be trampled on to death. Not that you'd find me complaining.

[eShirl]

10. an uncontrolled crowd like that is a human tsunami wave

They will have to arrest the entire crowd if they arrest nay of the people who happened to be at the front. But the responsibility for creating the situation - gross negligence, imo - lies with Walmart.

[Oak2004]

18. Yes

(Putting on emergency management hat here): the police are barking up the wrong tree and any charges they bring will either be dropped, or the persons will be acquitted. People trample people in trampling incidents because of crowd pressure, not individual choice. In fact anyone near the front of that crowd who had attempted to stop for the victim would have themselves been trampled.

Trampling incidents are a function of entryway design and poor crowd management. In fact, the motion of a crowd can be very accurately modeled, and there are computer models which can be used to assess trampling risks in buildings.

Assuming media reports are accurate and this is a classic trampling incident, no individual in the crowd is at fault. Walmart, however, is very much at fault. Once the local officials get their act together and start barking up the right tree, I expect Walmart will pay dearly for this incident.

[Doremus]

23. But that's too reasonable. We must blame the crowd because, well, just because! n/t

[Politicalboi]

47. LOL!

I guess some here have never been in a big crowd and don't know that sometimes you can't help it. When being pushed from behind in 30 feet of people how are you going to stop. And you better not fall or your next. Unless there's video of someone pushing the man down I can't see how anyone can be charged. It's Wal-Marts fault they should have been prepared.

[WriteDown]

35. You should design European soccer stadiums.

Since trampling is common there. :sarcasm:

[Oak2004]

37. Common, no. Has happened, yes.

It happens less often than it used to because there are professional crowd control consultants working with stadiums to reduce the risk.

A link I posted elsewhere today, http://www.crowddynamics.com , is one such company that works with European soccer clubs. There are American consultants too, who work with American teams, concert producers, and the like, though for whatever reason they didn't pop up in the two Google pages I was willing to search through to find a few quick references for these threads.

I am no specialist on crowd management -- I'm an emergency management generalist -- but as a generalist I certainly know a bit about the specialties. And, your :sarcasm: tag notwithstanding, I know these are serious, life-and-death, matters, where knowledge and expertise (remember science? We used to use science in decision making, oh, about eight years ago), not knee-jerk reactions to people who go to stores some people (rightly) disapprove of, matters.

[Sugar Smack]

22. You have a good point.

The responsibility lies mostly with Walmart & their gross negligence.

I was talking with one of my girlfriends last night as to where the mob responsibility lies. For example, If I were being crushed for a half hour at the front of the store, would I be more cognizant of what's going on at chest level (I can't breathe) and the need to escape, or would I be more cognizant of what's going on under my feet? Who can say? The point that I generally *have* regard for other people's space & comfort becomes moot, then, & I become a murderer.

What I mean is, if there was nobody else around, another person just lying on a sidewalk, and I stepped on him, I'd notice. If I was becoming crushed slowly without any sign of order making the crowd stand back, my need for air would override any other sensation.

Say there were people at the periphery of the mob crowding in and the pressure of the crowd got more intense at the entrance to the store, to where the only way the people there could move was forward. The people at the back have a hand in it, too. They helped cause the crushing momentum.

The people who saw this & did nothing at all are also responsible.

WalMart has the *hugest* obligation of all to protect its workers, and they're the ones who first and foremost knew the risks and did NOTHING.

Such a horrible event.

[ohio2007]

12. video of the stampede

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZYxKR-IdGo&eurl

gotta have an Xbox even if you loose your head and the wig falls off


somebody smell a pay day ? ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_XqWhC3Pxc&feature=related

bet she has lawyers beating a path to her door by now

[all.of.me]

15. Amazing only one person died!

Did you see how many people fell?! And only in the first few seconds?! This is disgusting. And oh so sad.

[Doremus]

24. Um, that's an old video. I haven't seen any video from the recent one.

BTW, what's up with this "payday" crap?

Blaming the victim is usually something we expect from foaming RWers.

[Hannah Bell]

65. um, that's thanksgiving 2005.

which pretty much shows walmart knew what to expect.

[JI7]

66. that's old but about 20 seconds into it you see a guy who keeps pushing people down

[DBoon]

16. If this had happened at an anti-war demonstration

or a hip-hop concert, I'm sure the organizers of those events would be in jail already, and the media would be all over the evil of "violent protesters" and "gangster rappers".

But this is WalMart, so the ones who are responsible get to roam free, and the consumer culture that pays for the media treats it like a freak occurance

[Kolesar]

27. Trampling deaths happened at a Who concert in Cincinnati

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_who

On 3 December 1979 in Cincinnati, Ohio, a crush at Riverfront Coliseum before The Who's concert resulted in the deaths of eleven fans. The band was not told of the deaths until after the show because civic authorities feared more crowd control problems would arise if the concert was cancelled. The band members were reportedly devastated by this event.

[yardwork]

45. I remember it very well. That's when I learned about the physics of crowds.

Because of those deaths in 1979, large concert venues are no longer allowed to offer festival seating. It's why we have so much security at concerts insisting that people sit in their assigned seats.

I'm appalled that huge corporations like Wal-Mart are still allowed to create these conditions. They have to have known the risks. They obviously don't care. It's time to make them care.

[shanti]

49. interesting...

those crowds were mostly younger people. from the videos of walmart, best buy, etc., it appears that these crowds were younger too. shame on them, but shame on the stores even more!

[yardwork]

54. Good point. I always remind my kids of the dangers of large crowds.

Younger people might not realize this as much as those of us who remember previous incidents.

[glinda]

50. My very good friend's son died in that one.

[DBoon]

57. by 1979, The Who were respectably mainstream

A trampling death at a Who concert in 1966 would have been treated far differently by the media - likely used as an example of youth culture run amock

A trampling death at a hip hop show would result in homilies about how hip hop cultivates violence, and why these shows should be banned for reasons of public safety

[Kolesar]

60. People who don't know *anything* are still not hesitant to offer their opinions

I recall opinions from decades ago that "rap" music was the #1 problem in black communities causing: failed marriages, poor student achievement, etc.

[DiverDave]

19. Why was there a stampede?

Did the store advertise a special, and say there was a limited amount on hand?

If they did, it's depraved indifference, IMO.
They set up the stampede by selling a 'few' items at a big mark down.
Oh, and to not control the crowd BEFORE they came through the doors is criminal also.

The family of the dead person is gonna get some cash, lets hope they make an example of the store manager and walmart.

[Iggo]

20. I've avreaged 2-3 arena-sized rock concerts per year...

...over the last 25-30 years. I've seen huge crowds and I've seen proper crowd control. You let people in one-at-a-time. It ain't rocket surgery.

For me the bottom line is this: Proper crowd control techniques exist to prevent this kind of thing from happening. Walmart knows (or should have known) these crowd control techniques exist.

I'm no lawyer, so I'm not in a position to say whether or not that rises to the legal definition of negligence. But it sure smells like it.

[Maeve]

26. Yes; remember 'festival seating' at that Who concert and how that led to deaths?

Same principle.

[Iggo]

31. If I remember correctly...

...and if not, please forgive me. It's been a lotta years and a lotta brain cells in between.

But if I remember correctly, the infamous stampede at the Who concert was people rushing to get INTO the venue. Pretty much what we had at Walmart yesterday: a crush of people waiting to get in, then they fling open the doors.

When done properly, the main crowd is held back, and a single file line is created well away from and leading up to the entrance. This takes a lot of security. But it's worth it.

EDIT: Come to think of it, it doesn't always take that much security. The kids at Guitar Center line up quite nicely every year on Black Friday in single file, waiting to be let in a few at a time.

[Maeve]

52. You have it right

Very like the Walmart mess, the few "best" seats (best buys) went to the ones who got there first.

My daughter went out to the doorbuster sales yesterday. At Walmart, there were people using carts to block/fend off others and NO STORE SECURITY to maintain order. She left there and went to Target, where the lines were well monitored and someone who tried to sneak to the front was removed (and the crowd cheered). She got what she wanted, didn't have to fight for it and came home safe and happy.

As for me--I'm cheap, but I don't want ANYTHING enough to play the Black Friday games.

[lunatica]

25. No one deliberately tampled anyone people!

The people at the head of that mob were lucky not to get trampled themselves. The surge comes from the back of the crowd, not from the front. There are any number of stories about the people at the front being crushed to death while standing in front of a fence by the crowd behind them.

[Kolesar]

29. You are correct, but Wal*mart management was negligent

Whether that can be proved in court remains to be seen.

If that had happened at that store before, the Wal*mart management would be in a poor place, legally.

[snooper2]

71. Oh bull...me me me me...

I'm getting in first, you telling me nobody just ran right over the top over somebody to get in the store faster...

That's deliberate trampling thank you very much...

[Doremus]

28. Ironic that another mob has arisen to criticize the first mob.

Blaming the people.

It couldn't be WalPuke, oh no, it's those filthy animal shoppers.

:eyes:

[Steerpike_Denver]

30. The crowd was doing EXACTLY what was expected

What's dismaying is still hearing ads on the radio for "door-buster" specials. The stores advertise these insanely low-priced, time- and quantity-limited loss-leaders to get exactly this kind of frenzied mob scene. You can't blame the people at the front of this crowd as it surged forward, any more than you would if someone dumped a pile of $100 bills on a crowd exiting a football game.

[MessiahRp]

32. At Wal-Mart it's called a Blitz

rather than Door Busters, not that either is particularly calming. I worked two Black Fridays at Wal-Mart. I found it strange how people would fight over stupid shit... (this was 1999-2000) 20" Emerson TVs... old ladies were doing cart demolition derbies over those. I had to call the cops because two guys got into a fist fight over a Razor scooter and one guy got his nose broken.

By calling it a Blitz as Wal-Mart does, they purposely set it up for people to run through the doors.

Best Buy probably has the best approach. Everyone lines up and once you're in a store you pretty much stay in lines that slowly drag along. Yes your chances at getting the "door buster" items are very slim but there is never a tidal wave of people pushing through the doors in any dangerous fashion.

Rp

[Oak2004]

38. A link on the subject:

http://www.crowddynamics.com/Disasters/crowd_crazing.htm

[JohnAB]

36. WAL-MART

I'M SO SORRY FOR THE LOSS OF THIS PERSON LIFE THIS DID NOT HAVE TO HAPPEN

MAY WAL-MART TAKE THIS EVENT AND LEARN SOMETHING FROM IT AND NOT PUT THIS DEATH IN A USELESS STATE

THERE IS NOT ONE ITEM IN THAT STORE THAT IS WORTH THE LOSS OF THAT OR ANY LIFE.

THE PEOPLE AT THE DOOR ARE JUST AS RESPONSIBLE EACH AND EVERY ONE

THE MACHINE UNMAKES THE MAN NOW THAT THE MACHINE IS SO PERFECT THE ENGINEER IS NOBODY

LIFE IS GOOD ONLY WHEN IT IS MAGICAL AND MUSICAL
APERFECT TIMING AND CONSENT AND WHEN WE DO NOT ANATOMIES IT

YOU MUST HEAR THE BIRDS SONG WITHOUT ATTEMPING TO RENDER IT.

JOHN

[Critters2]

62. Yeah. We get it. Could you stop shouting?

That is, turn off your caps. Thanks! :hi:

[47of74]

39. They should be holding the company to account

Law enforcement should be holding the company to account. Huge fines against Wal-Mart or other companies that show such reckless disregard for human life are the only things they understand.

[Selatius]

55. The local district attorney shouldn't go after individual shoppers unless he also goes after Wal-Mar

The store is just as culpable in the death of an innocent person as well as the injury of countless other people.

[Ignorimus]

59. Someone has to go to jail

If it was my relative, I wouldn't like his death to go unpunished.

[pinniped]

68. They're too busy playing with their bloody electronics to be bothered.

I suppose these stampeding assholes thought they were crushing a sleeping bag someone left on the floor, not a person.

Uh, maybe they shouldn't have let the multiple suspects leave the store?

Then again, were that to happen, a riot would have ensued and the store would be burned to a crisp.

I guess the police didn't show up in time. Either that, or they weren't notified before the hordes of shoppers fled the store with their cartloads of crap.

[Zombie2]

69. I hope they prosecute ever single person that....

....MURDERED this poor man, along with Wal-Fart.

[snooper2]

70. Stupid Materialistic Humans

Hope they catch the bastards and give them some prison time. I would have done everything possible to help the man who was down on the ground, including popping people in the throat - man & woman.

Proud Wal-Mart hater here but I'm not jumping on the bandwagon, no excuse for ignorant fucking people.