Pastor Who Helped Get "Under God" in Pledge Dies

[Hissyspit]

Source: Associated Press

Pastor who helped get "under God" in Pledge dies
From Associated Press
November 29, 2008 11:27 AM EST

ALEXANDRIA, Pa. - A church official says the clergyman credited with helping to push Congress to insert the phrase "under God" into the Pledge of Allegiance has died in Alexandria, Pa. The Rev. George M. Docherty was 97.

Nancy Taylor, historian for the Huntingdon Presbyterian Church, says Docherty died on Thanksgiving at his home in Alexandria, with his wife, Sue, by his side.

Docherty delivered a sermon saying the pledge should acknowledge God in 1952 at Washington's New York Avenue Presbyterian Church, just blocks from the White House.

On Feb. 7, 1954, he delivered it again after learning that President Dwight Eisenhower would be at the church. Congress inserted the words a few months later

Read more: http://enews.earthlink.net/article/nat?guid=20081129/4930cc50_3ca6_15526200811291478389617

[varkam]

1. The Good Die Young. eom

[annabanana]

17. (also my first thought). . .n/t

[ComtesseDeSpair]

32. Very well put.

[amdezurik]

2. another traitor to the Constitution dies

after living a full life...

[Pale Blue Dot]

3. And now he is gone

and unable to tell us that there is no afterlife, there is no heaven and there is no God.

He is unable to confirm that he was a collection of atoms and molecules that came to be through millions of years of evolution. There is no soul and there is no "higher purpose" to our lives.

It's time to stop all of this nonsense and face facts. We should be happy we're here, and happy we can think about these things. Believing in fairies and sky gods is a waste of our time.

[hendo]

12. Not quite as much of a waste

as lambasting people for thier beliefs.

Go take your negativity somewhere else.

[gabby garcia]

16. but when they force THEIR beliefs

on every one else - that's ok?

Lambast away!!

[Frisbee]

19. Amen. err, RIGHT ON!

;-)

[varkam]

20. Well, yes it is. Because this is a Christian nation, dontchyaknow?

[hendo]

26. they cant force you

to do anything you don't want to do.

[mitchum]

34. Other than have to listen to their insipid propaganda

[hendo]

85. Oh, how dare you listen

you have the choice of ignoring him. You choose to listen and then you complain about it.

[mitchum]

87. Fine...when school districts,etc...allow me to say,"Your beliefs...

are nothing more than fairy tales for herdsman starring a schizophrenic born of a promiscuous liar betrothed to a gullible cuckold" and those who may be offended are only expected to ignore me, I will consider it a fair trade.
Until then, the "poor oppressed" god bullies are running an unfair game.

[hendo]

106. when school districts allow you to be an a**hole?

Thats what you really mean, right?
What about other religions? Or is all of your ill-placed rage focused on Christianity and your belief that it somehow ruined your life by existing. If you want people to pay attention to what you are saying dont be a dick.

[riverdale]

109. Christians are the dicks

Forcing all of us to pretend their ridiculous beliefs are legitimate thougts

[hendo]

126. you are forced to do no such thing

unless you don't have the backbone to refrain from participating.

What's the next claim from you, did baby Jesus steal your train set?

[hendo]

127. you are forced to do no such thing

unless you don't have the backbone to refrain from participating.

What's the next claim from you, did baby Jesus steal your train set?

[mitchum]

110. Give me a fucking break; Christians ARE the whining bullies of superstition...

in this country
It wasn't rabbis or mullahs pushing for that "under God" addition

And just what is "asshole-ish" about pointing out:
it does have its origins in fairy tales for herdsmen
the alleged Jesus of Nazareth exhibited all of the signs of schizophrenia
that was quite an outlandish explanation that Mary sold to Joseph (Would you buy that story?)
? ? ?

[hendo]

125. your tone

make a well thought out argument and maybe you would have a shot.

All of the anti-christian posts that I see her sound like they are voiced by a pissed off 5 year old.

"no, you're the doo doo head".

Seriously, WTF.

[mitchum]

129. Where in the hell is the "well thought out argument" for believing in that skygod nonsense?

All of the pro-christian posts that I see here sound like they are voiced by an incredibly gullible 5 year old.
Onward Christian Whiners...

[spoony]

134. Shouldn't you be off calling women derogatory names

that rhyme with punt?

[mitchum]

147. "Aunt" is a derogatory name for women???!!!

Wait a minute...that doesn't rhyme with "punt" (even though it appears as if it should)
I dunno what you mean...

[hendo]

153. did you use the "c" word?

thats not very nice. Not that i have seen you use it, so I dont know what the other poster was referring to.

[mitchum]

158. Sure...Clorox, crayon, crouton, carbuncle, craisins...bunches of 'em

[hendo]

159. now you are just dodging the issue

but thats alright.

[mitchum]

167. Why...thanks for that absolution!

[hendo]

174. thats what im here for :)

:P

[hendo]

146. being attacked for thier beliefs

does not usually bring out the best in people.

[mitchum]

149. Well, it's better than having nails driven through their wrists and feet

However, for some reason
many of them
seem to think
it's the equivalent

Methinks they misinterpret that whole persecution gospel thing.
I wonder why?

[hendo]

152. So, would you crucify a christian?

or would you just feed us to the lions?

[mitchum]

157. Ah...there is that "us" I have been waiting for

Somehow I knew you weren't a mere disinterested observer.
Frankly, I would prefer to ignore you.
Unfortunately, not all of the branches of your curious sect observe that whole vow of silence thing.

[hendo]

160. :)

ignore me personally? or my religion?

[mitchum]

168. Obviously...

neither
:)

[hendo]

173. YAY! :)

nt

[JI7]

60. they do things like this dead guy with installing the "under God" into the pledge

[hendo]

84. and that harms you personally how?

someone is too easily offended.

[JI7]

88. and how does Finnfan's Comments harm you

you are the one who is so offended by what he and others have said.

the difference is the religious types always want to put things into law or get entire groups to do it as they do with prayer in school.

but you don't see atheists pushing to BAN prayer, just that it shouldn't be organized.

[Bake]

145. Oh really? We "religious types" ALWAYS do that?

Personally, I'm just fine with the separation of church and state. But feel free to paint with the extremely broad brush.

Bake

[Warren DeMontague]

138. It DOES NOT BELONG IN THE PLEDGE OF ALLEGIANCE.

It is a gross violation of the establishment clause, even if no one is "forcing" six year olds to say the actual words.

It doesn't belong in the pledge. Personally, I think that time could be better spent every morning teaching kids the constitution and civics, but that's just me. Assuming there is some legitimate reason to have a pledge, religion -and "Under God" is a religious statement- doesn't belong.

Period.

[superconnected]

131. I hate to say it but I see athiests as more likely to be intolerant of others beliefes than most

other groups as a whole.

It used to be Christians but now it's not most Christian or even a tenth that go out of their way to attack everyone else's beliefs, it is nearly every atheist though. Intolerance of other's beliefs is ugly no mater where it comes from. I remember when I knew mostly tolerant atheists. It's amazing what how that movement got overrun by the people ready to insult others for their beliefs. If most of Christianity got taken over by the Fred Phelps group of attack and insult anyone who doesn't think like them, it would be comparable to the average atheists that posts on DU now a days when religion comes up in the topic.

[Deja Q]

151. Life's a beach.

:popcorn:

People get so riled about the surface issues that they forget the real issues that exist underneath.

40 years ago, atheists were evil.

Today Christians are evil.

Meanwhile, it's not the label but how the flying fig people act in the first place.

And, worst of all, is "tolerance" indeed. See, if anyone is in love - that's great. Unless they abstained from even kissing before the honeymoon night. Oh, then it's a total phony farce. What tolerance? As long as it doesn't become inconvenient, and intolerance can be contagious when one is surrounded by it.

Of course, everything is all wal-mart's fault too, go figure. See, if they didn't exist, nobody would be doing any wrong and daffodils would be flying out of our butts every time they'd pass gas. That's how perfect the world would be without walmart. People could still act like rabid cattle but because walmart never existed, well that's okay. (not)

[Pale Blue Dot]

42. I'm not going away quietly anymore.

These beliefs are based upon nothing but fear and wishful thinking yet they effect almost every aspect of our lives. And when someone dares to point this out they are told to shut the fuck up and "take your negativity somewhere else".

Not anymore. Sorry. Ask yourself why, if you God is so powerful, does he have to be protected against my words? If your belief is so strong, why can't you listen to differing opinions?

[hendo]

86. s/he doesn't

edit:
and i didn't quite say to stfu. You are welcome to your negativity, but focusing on negativity will make you bitter.

[Zhade]

97. Your calling it negativity doesn't make it so.

I find the truth quite positive myself.

[hendo]

105. the tone was negative

taking pleasure in someone else's death, thats just wrong.

[Zhade]

116. There was no "taking pleasure in anyone's death". At all.

NT!

[fascisthunter]

169. same with me...

[onager]

114. "S/he?"

That doesn't quite cover all the bases. Depending on which religioso I talk to, I have been assured that God is male (Jews, Xians, Muslims) female (pagans) or has no gender (the spiritual sorts).

I've concluded that the only fair way to settle this is by coming up with a new pronoun to describe all gods:

s/he/it

OK, another post sure to be deleted soon...

[hendo]

128. okay, that's fair.

I'm still wondering why so many aethists only care bout Christianity here. Look at all the other wonderful religions.

[Politicalboi]

22. Here! Here!

I wish these cults would get out of our government. I hope I live to see it taken out and off our money too.

[Ecumenist]

30. Finnfan, I understand that you have issues with his type, as do I

But you're going so far out on a limb that you can no longer see the tree. Just as you are extrapolating that there is no afterlife, soul etc, you may be COMPLETELY wrong and will be quite shocked to find that death is simply a passage in the same manner as birth is; that there is life and souls and a whole other plane of existence that is as real as the one you occupy now. You are entitled to your own opinion but to express them as fact is as obnoxious as you consider the opinions of those who see the universe in a different fashion.

[Pale Blue Dot]

35. You're right: I will be shocked and pleasantly surprised to find that

even though there is absolutely no scientific or logical evidence to support it, that your conjecture, based on your desire to believe that you can live forever, is true.

Sorry. We have GOT to start calling out the bullshit. THERE IS NOTHING THERE.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Pale Blue Dot]

47. Your anecdotal evidence can be conclusively, scientifically disproven.

Want to try? Get me some of your "anecdotal evidence."

If you want to believe in all of this in the privacy of your own home, fine with me. But for too long people have been failing to point out the elephant in the room because we aren't supposed to question others' beliefs. Hell, if we do question it we get called "obnoxious moronic idiots". How very "Christian".

I'll be waiting for that evidence.

[Ecumenist]

50. First of all, you cannot use science to prove or disprove anything Finnfan

that has too many unknowns. You damn well know that I was NOT saying that you were idiotic for your comment BUT because you made a comment that was just this side of an attack. Your comment to my reply to your post was obnoxious. You can believe what you want to as anyone can but your idea of Christianity has obviously been formed by the same group of idiots who I had the misfortune to run into. NOT EVERYONE WHO BELIEVES IN LIFE AFTER DEATH ARE CHRISTIANS, although I am. I am not a fundamentalist and as a black woman, I know all too well how rooted in hatred and prejudice fundamentalist anything is. I believe that people can believe whatever they want to, no matter what that is. HOWEVER, I have a problem with people who constantly harrangue and deride others based on a false sense of superiority and self-sure mindset that says that somehow you know that there's nothing beyond this life.

So, don't even get it twisted. I was referring to your response to my reply to your original post, and you damn well know it. If I chose to argue with you, not that I feel the need to, you would try to come up with pseudo-scientific "evidence" to disprove any believe that lies outside of what you've decided is your reality. BTW, I majored in MOLECULAR BIOLOGY with an Emphasis on virology, so I am NOT somebody who livews my life in a vacuum of logic and critical thought. So, as I said earlier, don't get it twisted.

[varkam]

51. Huh?

First of all, you cannot use science to prove or disprove anything Finnfan

I know you weren't talking to me, but that statement...well...let me ask you something. How do you think that it is you are communicating with people in various parts of the world at the moment? Through a computer that is connected to the internet, right?

How do you think that things like that came into existence?

[Ecumenist]

53. Can you read, Finnfan?

Read what I said..."First of all, you cannot use science to prove or disprove anything Finnfan.....THAT HAS TOO MANY UNKNOWNS. Distract for thre point much?

[AtheistCrusader]

54. I don't think you 'get' the Scientific Method.

Shall we start with Probability?

I too, am curious about this mountain of anecdotal evidence that there is life after death.

[Ecumenist]

58. Atheist, Crusader, I feel no need to attempt to prove something to

someone for whom no amount of evidence would be enough. I don't Get the scientific method? Right. You don't know what the hell you're talking about and obviously didn't read the entirety of my posts. Oh yeah, welcome to DU...

[AtheistCrusader]

63. Welcome to DU?

Hurrr I have less than 1000 posts. Condescend much?

Nice cop out on the evidence thing. I note you haven't provided any to the other poster that asked you to as well.

If you espouse some force, rule, or entity beyond the observable boundaries of the world around us, the burden of proof on demonstrating it's existence is on YOU. Physicists do this all the time, why should Theists get a pass?

[fascisthunter]

171. nevermind

[LiberalFighter]

67. If there was life after death. Wouldn't the so called Lazarus had made a remark about it?

[varkam]

56. Um. I'm not FinnFann. But thank you for the polite clarification. Yeesh.

And if there are too many unknowns, then isn't the appropriate response "I don't know"? Or, alternatively, simply "No" - but that would require going into the issue of burden of proof.

It might further be worth noting that "disproving" something is akin to proving a negative, which is a logical impossibility. This is accounted for by virtue of the nature of hypothesis testing, what with the null hypothesis and all.

[Ecumenist]

64. Sorry, Varkam. Mea culpa.

I was simply replying to the poster who felt it necessary to respond in an obviously hostile manner to my original reply to his post. Sorry again for mistaking you for the poster. :hi:

[varkam]

74. Since we're talking, do you have a response to the points? eom

[Zhade]

98. Can YOU read? The poster you replied to isn't FinnFan.

NT!

[AtheistCrusader]

52. This is why I don't bother pressing the topic much.

People are just too rooted in dogma. It's ok, unfounded faith in the supernatural is dying out anyway. As long as people aren't legislating based on religion (such as the abomination that was inserted into the Pledge) we'll get along just fine.

[Ecumenist]

59. DOGMA??!! Right.. Unfounded... Oh yeah, you're completely correct and right

oh all knowing one. Tell me....Do you honestly believe that what you're espousing isn't atheistic dogma?

[AtheistCrusader]

61. Yes.

I see no evidence of the supernatural. I did not require interaction with any other human to realize this. I have no 'book' of pre-programmed beliefs. I don't go to any Atheist church. I don't even 'hang out' with Atheists. I have no priests, or leaders. I am aware of people like Hitchens and Dawkins, but I am not a 'follower'.

A lack of faith is not a belief structure.

If you believe things like parsimony, the burden of proof, reason, etc, are a 'dogma'... Welp.

[Ecumenist]

68. Funnily enough, I don't :hang out " with herds of christians either.

My daily interactions include a couple of reformed Jews, a Muslim, a Shoshone woman who follows indigenous beliefs etc. You assume alot about Christians, at least this Christian. I haven't attended a church in 26 years as I feel I don't need to belong in a group. I am nondenominational and like you, I have noone I look up to as a leader OR priests. This is a huge erroneous assumption you're making. They are human beings just like me and put their skirts or pants on one leg at a time. Yes, I believe in God and I see no conflict with viewing life through a lens of logic anymore than you would seeing life from your vantage point.

I am not a follower and feel no particular need to convince anyone of anything because in time, one thing is for sure, one day all of us will find what the situation really is as it applies to the next phase of existence. You honestly tell me with a straight face that you have no "atheistic Faith structure" simply because you don't go to a "church" or have a book that you somehow follow. When we are socialised into our society, books are used along with what is popularly known as "common sense" to help us to fit and understand how to our communities. Yes, as a Christian, we read the Bible and study it's tenets but I was taught to use it as a framework for life. I do not look at Christian life as one would in a cult. There are LIGHT-YEARS difference between what you're talking about and most of the "TRUE" Christians I know.

[AtheistCrusader]

73. We seem to be having trouble communicating.

There may be some 'Atheists' that take 'unbelief' to the level of a Dogma. But Atheism, or a LACK of Theism, is not a belief structure. ALL theism is, by it's very nature, dogma. (Rare exceptions perhaps, for people like L.Ron Hubbard, who I assume didn't actually believe in the religion he invented) I won't be so crass as to point to the dictionary definition of dogma, but I hope you see the difference.

If you use the Bible for a framework for your life, that is a pure, unadulterated example of 'dogma'. I must confess, I am curious which bits of the Bible you selected to fill out your worldview. NT or OT? How much of each? Did you ignore the unsavory bits?

[Ecumenist]

77. Are you actually trying to tell me with a straight face that the only systems

capable of being considered dogmatic are those that are based in theism? You do understand that Dogmatic beliefs are also those which are " An authoritative principle, belief, or statement of ideas or opinion, especially one considered to be absolutely true", which you propose your atheistic stand point to be. As you see, I am crass enough to point out one of the definitions of the noun,"DOGMA".

[AtheistCrusader]

95. Well.

If I fervently believed your god did not exist, that would be a form of dogma, yes. Not seeing any evidence to support it's existence is not the same thing.

I was restricting my point to the realm of religion, as there are many concepts beyond religion that would qualify for the dictionary definition you selected. Most that I am aware of would qualify as superstitions though.

You have been challenged more than once, by more than one poster to supply some 'anecdotal' evidence of life after death. Were you going to share, or no?

[Zhade]

101. A lack of belief is not dogmatic. It's a simple lack of something.

NT!

[spoony]

135. A lack of belief is called agnosticism

But even the OED says that atheism is a belief. Sorry, kiddo.

[mitchum]

150. But is the OED "divinely inspired"...

or is it merely like every other text in existence?

[Zhade]

100. You believe in a god for which there is no corroborative evidence.

There's no assumption involved in saying you hold irrational beliefs.

[Zhade]

99. There's no such thing as atheist dogma, since atheism isn't a religion.

NT!

[varkam]

48. Let me see if I got this straight...

because there is no scientific evidence for it, but because there is "plenty of anecdotal evidence" that there is "something beyond this life", people who don't believe in an afterlife are "as stupid as the fundamentalist cretins"?

Hmmm...

[Ecumenist]

49. Nope, that not what I meant. I was saying that the poster's obnoxious response

to my reply to their original comment was as idiotic and moronic as fundamentalist cretins who purposely make judgements on people who don't see the world as they do.

[mitchum]

4. Feast on, worms

[navarth]

5. won't he be surprised. n/t

[MineralMan]

7. Nope...

He no longer exists.

[proud2BlibKansan]

6. Too bad we can't bury "under god" with him

[TankLV]

8. Good riddance to bad rubbish - the world is WORSE place for him having been born...!

No question about it...

In a CONSTITUTIONAL Democracy, such RELIGIOUS CRAP doesn't belong ANYWHERE - on the money, in the pledge - this religious crap belongs NOWHERE!

[Name removed]

9. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

10. REMEMBER ---- IT'S OPTIONAL ...

Though many avoid telling kids that ---

[yardwork]

25. Yeah right. Imagine being a kid refusing to say the pledge in most schools around the country...

[AtheistCrusader]

55. Hi.

It was actually no big deal. Though I would often say the pledge, and just remain silent when those two words passed by. Then again, by the time I reached Middle School, the principal canceled the tradition, fearing a lawsuit.

Besides, what is the use of a compulsory loyalty pledge anyway?

[defendandprotect]

78. Agree -- I don't get it but it seems to satisfy fanatics ----

[defendandprotect]

76. I was at a library one day where a spare room was being used ...

to drill kids in this --

It might have been like a Girl Scout troop ... unsure --

But the female leader was stressing the "under God" part as she was having

kids repeat after her. Probably like 8 year olds--?


Thought about bringing the "optional" part to her attention but she sounded

like religion was more on her mind than the pledge. AND, this wasn't my town

or my library. So--I didn't.

This is a town at the Jersey shore which has moved a giant Nativity onto park

grounds by the lake which is pretty much what you first see.

But, the RCC church itself is very prominent and only a half a block

from there-!!

There was a law suit -- because most of town is Catholic they think they're

entitled to do this. Eventually, they had to add Hannukkah symbol,

Santa and Frosty the Snow Man as most towns have done.

[mitchum]

89. That;s because even the most seemingly fanatical actually doubt the truth...

of their crazyass beliefs. They want everyone in line in order to keep those nagging doubta at bay.

[defendandprotect]

112. Terrific insight --

[Odin2005]

140. Baloney. It may be "optional", but if a kid refuses to say "under god" he/she risks being harassed.

Having "under God" in the pledge and saying one doesn't have to say it effectively forces the nonreligious to expose our beliefs to all, making non-religious students targets for bigotry and harassment by faculty and fellow students.

[knitter4democracy]

156. There's a special place in hell for teachers who would do that.

I had students refuse to say that phrase or even the whole thing, and I allowed them that right and encouraged them to exercise their right to free speech, as any teacher should.

[knitter4democracy]

155. I always told my students it was.

And I taught in Catholic schools, where it really isn't optional (private schools--different rules). I felt that it was a basic right to refuse to say the pledge if they wanted to, and I occasionally had some who would.

[Capt. America]

11. It sure did keep those "Godless Commies" from reciting the pledge.

[Ian David]

13. One Douchebag, Under Ground. n/t

[Zhade]

117. AWESOME!

NT!

[SammyWinstonJack]

170. .

:spray:

[ksimons]

14. what was wrong with the pledge before then?

guess everyone prior to him getting that 'under god' put in the pledge were un-American communists. lincoln, washington, roosevelt, etc etc godless hordes of people who all lived before the pledge changed ruined our country, and only now, since the pledge was changed has it achieved greatness.

just look at us today!!! woo hoo, thanks to his foresight, we are a changed nation, an ideal for all to follow

oh wait, nevermind

[Milspec]

57. Well all I will say is that

I'm opposed to the "pledge" in it's entirety, even without the "Under God" part.

[superconnected]

132. Excellent point.

[chat_noir]

15. Palin: "Under God" in Pledge of Allegiance 'good enough for the founding fathers'

In 2006, the Eagle Forum Alaska sent a questionnaire to all the state's gubernatorial candidates, including Sarah Palin (R). From Palin's response about the Pledge of Allegiance:

11. Are you offended by the phrase "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegiance? Why or why not?

SP: Not on your life. If it was good enough for the founding fathers, its good enough for me and I'll fight in defense of our Pledge of Allegiance.

However, the words "Under God" didn't appear in the Pledge of Allegiance until 1954; the founding fathers had nothing to do with them. The Pledge itself, in fact, wasn't even written until 1892 .Bellamy's original Pledge read, "I Pledge Allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all"

http://www.ireport.com/docs/DOC-149418

[varkam]

18. I hope she sticks around.

I really do. That woman is a gaff factory.

[yardwork]

27. In other words, NOT having a pledge was "good enough for the founding fathers"

so I assume that Sarah Palin would fight against use of the pledge, right?

[riverdale]

130. God is a Republican

- loves hearing his name in the pledge and seeing it on money
- hates abortions & gay marriage

[Ecumenist]

69. Chile, she's an "A #1, bonified and guaranteed to please " fool.

nuff said.

[bloomington-lib]

21. I've met quite a few people who think

the nation was born with that pledge and use it to justify why the U.S. is a Christian nation and therefor God should be promoted to the public.

I wonder how many of them today are learning that it was all made up in the 50's.

[Buck Laser]

23. I'm guessing the LORD is still pissed at him.

[Pastiche423]

24. Only the good die young

[Jamastiene]

28. I don't have anything nice to say.

So, nothing at all.

[kestrel91316]

29. He was Presbyterian? How embarrassing. I was raised Presbyterian.

[Frisbee]

31. So was I...

I got over it.

[kestrel91316]

62. Nothing for me to get over, we quit going to church when I was 8.

So I say "raised" Presbyterian quite loosely. I was baptised there.

Everyone in my family is about as religious as my cats.

[Frisbee]

91. Same here...

For some reason when I was young (probably pretty close to 8 also, maybe a year or two younger) my Mom decided going to church would be a good idea. That lasted two weeks before she had her fill of it, and decided it wasn't in our best interest to be brainwashed. I do honestly believe the end result would have been the same either way, there is no way I can envision myself buying in to the idea of an almighty supernatural being.

[ComtesseDeSpair]

33. What I learned from Sarah Silverman

When I was a kid and had to do the pledge, I would just not say the "under gawd" part because it was meaningless to me - just like how when I was forced to say the Serenity Prayer I would say, "I grant MYSELF..." instead of "gawd grant me". Well, when I saw Sarah Silverman in concert a couple months ago she said that we should compromise by using air quotes for the "under gawd" part. So, at Grant Park on Election Night, my GF and I put it to good use and had a hearty chuckle doing it. Really, you should try it - it inspires much mirth, at least for the non-gawdly people.

[PassingFair]

141. Air quotes are a fantastic idea! I also like:

"One nation,
Under CANADA"!!

[hunter]

165. Or under Mexico...

http://flourish.org/upsidedownmap

[hyphenate]

36. Hmmm

One of the original troublemakers in this particular situation. Without him, perhaps the radical religious right could have been silenced a little more instead of allowing them even that much leverage.

Religion and politics SHOULD NEVER be connected, regardless. And with the influence of the religious right, we look like utter fools in the global community.

[alfredo]

38. It was during the "Red Scare" and the theocrats framed it so if you were

against inserting those words you were a Commie. You know Commies hate god so if you don't do as the church says, you hate god, therefore you are a Commie.

[hyphenate]

79. Pretty sad

that Americans were that gullible, even back then. It makes it sad that we can't even pinpoint an event in our history that precipitated the educational downturn in our country. I guess we prefer to speak glowingly of the "ruggedness" and "pioneer spirit" and demonize those with academic credentials. It was probably the push westward that made that worse--the northeast and Atlantic seacoast had some of the greatest colleges in the world, but the rest of the country, as we settled and took more and more of the continent, couldn't brag about such educational bastions, so they had to look for compliments where they got them. That's why people like Bush could get elected, more to our shame.

[alfredo]

81. The Knights of Columbus bankrolled it and put a lot of election year

pressure on congress. Fuckers.

[Dukkha]

37. Glad Doucherty lived long enough to see the outcome of his theocratic abuse

one nation bitterly divided by his colossal waste of time fundie drivel. Way to go Rev. Nice legacy to leave behind.

[IndianaGreen]

39. May he burn in Hell, Freeper scum!

Let's restore the original Pledge!

[martymar64]

111. The down side of my atheism

Since there is no god and no heaven that rewards do-gooders, also there is no hell that punishes bad people. So people like hitler and nixon and prescott bush are not burning in eternal torment anywhere, they just simply don't exist anymore.

Sigh . . .

I'm with you on the original pledge.

[PassingFair]

113. That's why we push for impeachment.

:evilgrin:

[alfredo]

40. The author of the pledge was a Socialist!!

[Owl]

41. He apparently meant well, though I don't agree with it.

[Libertas1776]

43. ...

Its outdated...for the love of flying spaghetti monster get rid of it!

Times have changed, we don't have to prove that all our little boys and girls are bunch of "god fearing soldiers of christ" anymore against the big bad commie soviets.

Seriously, when something is outdated you change it!

Before WWII, when all those little American boys and girls said the pledge...they would begin with their hand over their heart and after the word flag they would raise a little Roman salute to the flag, before Hitler ruined it for everyone. So ya know what we did, we changed it!

(I could just see Ms. Alaska giving a hitler salute to the flag and saying "Well ya know ay, it was good enough ya know for the foundin' fathers its good enough for me ya know ay.")

[Libertas1776]

44. Dont do it

P.S.
Just don't recite if you don't want to.
For the kids, if a prick teacher gives you the business about not getting up and not pledging allegiance like so many other "good" countries have done in history (ie Nazi Germany, Soviet Union)
Just mention a little thing called "West Virginia Board of Education v. Barnette" (1943) in which the US Supreme Court says you can't be forced to say the pledge. If they give you trouble, you can literally mak a federal case out of it! :evilgrin:

[machI]

45. I suppose we are going to be inundated with the Red Skelton video on the evening news now

Mr. Laswell, rest in peace, please.

[fed_up_mother]

65. Sometimes the hate on this site is utterly embarrassing.

The man delivered two sermons saying the pledge should include "under God" in 1954, and your hate is palpable now.

Pity.

I truly understand why so many people don't get involved in politics anymore. The hate on both sides is suffocating. I would imagine that a good 95% of Americans don't fit in at places like Democratic Underground or Free Republic, which - come to think of it - makes me feel really good. It would be a sign that there's still hope for our country, after all.

flame away

[hunter]

71. It would be good if the American Theocracy Under God recognized the anger here.

Instead they ride along in their bus, often unawares, running over ordinary people on the sidewalk in the name of Love.

A lot of us have witnessed or experienced the bloody carnage left behind by U.S. religion. Needless to say, we are not happy, and we are not silent.

[undeterred]

75. Bloody carnage?

:shrug: Do tell.

[hunter]

83. The anti-abortion pro-war pro-death-penalty anti-gay anti-Islam branch of "Judeo-Christianity"

Anything in particular?

When I was a young man a friend of mine killed himself -- who really knows why -- but his good Christian family and his community had taught him that homosexuality was a vile, dirty sin. His geeky misfit friends knew he was probably gay, but I guess he just couldn't accept himself, and couldn't see any future where he could be happy.

Then I worked in medicine before anyone knew anything about AIDS, only that it was the "gay disease." There's a lot of Christians rotting in hell for that one, for doing nothing, most especially those who dismissed the death and suffering as God's punishment.

From the frying pan into the fire, my first serious girlfriend was a lesbian but she wouldn't admit that to herself or anyone else and I got used and abused along the way, especially by her lovely Christian family. I think the high point was when her mom told me I wan't "man enough" to keep here daughter straight.

:woohoo: I can turn women into lesbians! Where's my toaster?

The worst part of our relationship was that I was still old-school Christian enough that I had some hope we could work it out with God's help. Hah, hah, guess what, God's answer was "NO. Don't be a fucking idiot." and the heavenly choir sounded a lot like Queen's Bohemian Rhapsody.

She married a woman, not a marriage recognized by the state, but set up and defended by a tiger of a lawyer and the minister that blessed it. Their kids are good people, college graduates, successful. They grew up in a happy, loving, nurturing family. No kid could ask for more.

Most recently I've been fighting against proposition 8. It irritates the hell out of me when religious people claim they are denying an arbitrary group of people the most ordinary of secular civil rights, the right of marriage, because they "love" them. They probably abuse their kids too, especially their gay kids, because they "love" them.

Wanna here a scary abortion story? How 'bout the story of a good Christian kid who went off on a crusade to Iraq and came back home with broken spirit and body to commit suicide by cop...

Bloody carnage.

[undeterred]

104. I understand and can relate to what you are saying.

but I can't relate it to "under god" in the Pledge of Allegiance. This change was made during a time of anti-communist paranoia and has nothing to do with right wing homophobic Christians.

Before AIDS became rampant in America's gay community, the disease was killing off entire tribes in Africa. I spent the summer of 1978 working in a medical dispensary in Central African Republic. The Christian missionaries there told me that 70% of the tribe had died in the last 20 years and they were sure it was a sexually transmitted disease. At least a hundred thousand had already died. Children were born with it and died young. The missionary doctor there tried to tell the CDC but nobody was interested, because after all, it was just poor Africans. If somebody had paid attention to him and sent the resources over to investigate this, it might have saved a lot of lives.

[Zhade]

118. Yeah, defending the Constitution and Bill of Rights is sooooo hateful.

Get the fuck over yourself.

[spoony]

133. No, but saying someone should burn in hell

(You know, the place your type is always using as a bludgeon against religious people) for the words "under God" is hateful. It's as hateful as any shit a Phelps cultists would spew out. Frankly, a lot of you just seem dreadfully mentally ill based on the nasty, violent things you say.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

142. What a lovely phrase. "Your type." Your use of it says lots.

Oh and by the way, most atheists DON'T say "burn in hell" because, duh, we don't believe in it.

[spoony]

161. Look, I have a stalker!

Isn't that sweet. I'm looking at my posts all over and there you are again trying your best to keep up. Anyway, since you not only missed the point of my post but underlined the meaning of it, a feat both difficult and confusing, there's really nothing more to say.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

163. I admit, I have this -- perhaps not totally healthy -- impulse not to leave any bullshit unanswered.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

148. The man was a clear bigot.

"An atheistic American is a contradiction."

Why, exactly, are you defending him?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

162. Holy crap, he said THAT?

(Googles a bit)

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/postmortem/2008/12/one_nation_under_god.html

Jesus H. Q. Rhyste on a pink yellow-polkadotted nuclear-powered pogo stick. The man's douchebaggery was orders of degree higher than I thought.

[undeterred]

66. He didn't change the Pledge of Allegiance, CONGRESS DID.

So bashing one particular clergyman who happened to give voice to what plenty of people thought at that time in American history is pretty silly.

If you want to change the Pledge of Allegiance back, quit your bashing and write to your member of CONGRESS. Bitching on Democratic Underground moves nothing.

[hunter]

102. Check out Docherty's original sermon...

1950's anti-communist rantings and historical fictions at their finest:

http://www.izpics.com/hunter/docherty.html (text)

http://www.nyapc.org/congregation/Sermon_Archives/?month=1954-02 (pdf)

It is a fight for the freedom of the human personality. It is not simply man’s inhumanity to man. It is Armageddon, a battle of the gods. It is the view of man as it comes down to from Judaio-Christian civilization in mortal combat against modern, secularized, godless humanity.

The pledge of allegiance seems to me to commit this theological implication that is fundamental to the American way of life. It should be “One nation, indivisible, under God.” Once “under God, “ then we can define what we mean by “liberty and justice for all’” To omit the words “under God” in the pledge of allegiance is to omit the definitive character of the American way of life.

What makes us different from those Godless Communists? God of course. "It is Armageddon, a battle of the gods!"

Damn, what a spew of toxic gas.

Thomas Jefferson or any number of the founding fathers would have thrown this preacher out on his ass. They built the wall between church and state to keep out the likes of Rev. Docherty.

[undeterred]

103. Thomas Jefferson had no right to throw a preacher out of anything

unless he was some sort of Church official, which he wasn't. That would be the state interfering with the church.

Congress made the change in the pledge of allegiance, not the preacher. And if a president sat in his congregation, listened to his sermons, and followed his advice- he was the one who crossed the line between church and state, not the preacher.

[hunter]

108. Many of the "Founding Fathers" were hostile toward that sort of religion...

...Thomas Jefferson with his marked up Bible, Benjamin Franklin with his science and skepticism, and even Abraham Lincoln.

Docherty would not have been the sort to impress these men. I'm quite certain Lincoln would have been offended by Docherty's sermon.

It's a shame Eisenhower acquiesced to this atomic-bomb induced madness of the time. It opened the door to a lot of crap that came later, and cheapened both U.S. politics and U.S. Christianity.

[Zhade]

119. Congress VIOLATED THE CONSTITUTION by doing so.

With the help of this nutcase douchebag.

[undeterred]

120. Then start a campaign to change it.

Or not. Just keep bitching about it the rest of your life if you prefer. :shrug:

[spoony]

136. Yep, easier to whine

And they've gotten so good at it. Lots of practice will do that.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

164. Docherty and his ilk taught us a lot about that.

Although we seem utterly unable to reach 0.000001% of his toxicity. Perhaps we need to train that more in our secret Satanic orgies.

[hunter]

166. Christians have this astonishing capacity to beat the crap out of people...

...and then when you call them on it they whine, "Dear God, why do they hate me so? I LOVE everyone!!!"

I'm absolutely certain these Christian's definition of "Love" does not coincide with Christ's.

Personally, I feel some revulsion toward the Pledge of Allegiance. When I was a little kid my mom was a Jehovah's Witness, so it was my God Given Duty to sit the pledge out, adding further to my already brilliant aura of socially awkward and clumsy freakishness. A couple of times I got in trouble too, not from the regular teachers, but from ignorant God-Bless-America substitute teachers who decided right from the start I was a disruptive troublemaker who needed to be quashed.

When I was teaching I was fairly subversive about the pledge, as were a few other teachers. In many public schools, including ours, the administration dealt with this by doing the pledge over the intercom along with the other announcements. I simply invited the students to sit quietly during the announcements, and to stand for the Pledge if they felt so compelled. I'd face the flag and wouldn't turn around unless there was some sort of gross disturbance. Most of the kids would sit there doodling quietly or daydreaming with only a few good boyscouts doing the full pledge, often followed by an obvious public display of silent prayer, maybe for my unpatriotic pagan-Catholic soul. If these patriots ever complained to their parents, their parents never got back to me.

[onager]

115. "Liberty & justice for all" was well-defined in 1954 America

Whites Only.

[Mad_Dem_X]

70. So, can PLEASE take it out of the Pledge now?

I believe in a higher power, but I don't think we should be required to say "under God" in our Pledge of Allegiance. It's time to go back to our original Pledge - "One nation, indivisible."

[msanthrope]

72. So now he's "Under Ground?" n/t

[foxfeet]

80. Under the Earth Goddess, actually.

[Penance]

82. Not *over* Earth Goddess? n/t

.

[mitchum]

90. One parson underground...

quite digestible
with flavor for worms and all...

[davidthegnome]

92. Without knowing much about the man

I'm in no position to judge. I don't agree or disagree with the two extra words. My thought on that issue is that it should be optional, but that it's absurd that we even have to stress that it's optional. Freedom of speech is a basic human right.

Look at it this way, had the words "under God" NOT been officially added to the pledge, and some had chosen to use them anyway (perhaps as a result of some speech, sermon, or particular social movement at the time)... would it really have made any difference? Peer pressure, other kids, possibly teachers may notice if/when a child doesn't say under God. Again, so what? To harass someone for saying them or for refusing to say them is equally tasteless and, in my opinion, absurd.

That said, I am a hopeful Agnostic (former Catholic). I hope that there is a higher power and an afterlife of some sort. I'm not certain one way or another and won't claim to be.

I did not know the Pastor, but his opinion regarding the matter is just that - an opinion.

[Joey Liberal]

93. May he rot in hell nt

[spoony]

137. Not a strong sense of irony amongst you lot, eh?

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

143. See #142. -nt

[Joey Liberal]

94. Only dictatorships need a pledge of allegiance

Fuck the pledge of allegiance. It's for braindead zombies who are afraid of freedom.

[Zhade]

96. "Docherty delivered a sermon saying the pledge should acknowledge God"

First it needs to established there are any gods to acknowledge, something that STILL hasn't been done.

[ozone_man]

107. Maybe we can take God out now?

Along with restoring the Constitution in general.

We have enough real problems to deal with without state sponsored belief in God delusions to support our fascist government.

[and-justice-for-all]

121. So can we return the pledge to its original form now? nt

[Vidar]

122. Good riddance. And I am religious.

[muntrv]

123. The USA won WWI and WWII without "Under Gawd" in Pledge of Allegiance.

Since then......

[RCinBrooklyn]

124. And it's all he'll ever be known for...what a waste of a life.

[Odin2005]

139. This Atheist wishes there was a Hell for him to burn in.

Having the phase "under God" in the pledge sends the message that you have to believe in "super-daddy-in-the-sky" BS to be a "patriotic American".

[slackmaster]

144. I never felt obliged to say "under God" after I found agnosticism in my early teens

I've always simply kept my mouth shut for those two words.

[ohio2007]

154. MSNBC poll. Should the logo be removed?

Should the motto "In God We Trust" be removed from U.S. currency?

Yes. It's a violation of the principle of separation of church and state.

No. The motto has historical and patriotic significance and does nothing to establish a state religion.


Vote to see results
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10103521/

[orleans]

172. so...this is the asshole who fucked up the pledge. ugh. n/t