Jet crashes into home; mother, grandmother, child killed

[Hepburn]

Source: CNN.com/US

SAN DIEGO, California (CNN) -- A grandmother, mother and young child died when a military fighter jet crashed into a house in San Diego, California, on Monday, igniting a huge fireball, authorities said.



Another child is missing, officials said. A search ended when night fell on Monday but will continue Tuesday morning, a spokesperson for the medical examiner said.

The father is a businessman who was at work at the time of the crash, and was not reached for comment, according to the San Diego Union-Tribune.

The F/A-18D plane, which authorities described as disabled, was trying to land at Marine Corps Air Station Miramar. The jet had just performed landing training on a Navy aircraft carrier before the pilot reported having trouble, according to the Marine Corps.



Read more: http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/12/09/military.jet.crash/#cnnSTCText

---

OMG...:cry:

Right before the Holidays, a man's entire family is wiped out.

[atreides1]

1. My Question

Where was the pilot located when he first reported having trouble? Was he already over land or was he still near the ocean?

These are some the questions that will have to be answered during the investigation. But the most important question is will the military be forthcoming with the truth, or will it use that old standby?

It's a National Security issue?

[Hepburn]

3. With 3 dead on the ground and a missing child...

...who IMO was probably killed, too...I would venture the opinion that this tragedy is ripe for a cover up.

I don't think we will ever know what the hell happened. Also: There was mention of the pilot being in his 20s ~~ I am wondering how experienced he was and if it was appropriate for him to be testing this plane.

[bdab1973]

25. For your education...

"I would venture the opinion that this tragedy is ripe for a cover up".

No, I doubt it would be. There will be several investigations...one done for safety reasons (not to assign blame, but to figure out the cause) and one done for legal reasons (to assign blame, if there is any). These investigations occur all the time...I myself am a trained mishap investigator for the military, and have investigated a few incidents in the past (although much more minor, without any deaths involved).

"There was mention of the pilot being in his 20s ~~ I am wondering how experienced he was and if it was appropriate for him to be testing this plane"

First off, the airplane was an F/A-18D, the two-seat version. Some are used as night attack aircraft (the second person being the extra set of eyes), but most are used for training. Second, the airplane was assigned to VMFA(T)-101, which is a training unit, officially called a FRS, or Fleet Replenishment Squadron. It's the squadron's job to train new F/A-18 pilots. I am also an instructor pilot at a formal training school with the military, and we are very meticulous about training, and sticking to the syllabus. I seriously doubt this 20-something pilot was flying the airplane without receiving appropriate training in the aircraft. In the military aviation community, we have very strict standards and we do not pass students if they don't meet the standards. Period.

Third, the aircraft probably wasn't being "tested". The only reason why an aircraft from VMFA(T)-101 would need to be "tested" would be for a functional test flight following major maintenance, and if that was the case, there would be a highly-experienced functional check pilot flying the aircraft.

Take that info for what it's worth.

[unhappycamper]

5. According to the Navy Times

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=259x21155

The pilot, who was assigned to Marine Fighter Attack Training Squadron 101, had taken off from the Navy’s aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln, which is conducting carrier qualifications off the Southern California coast, Delarosa said. The F/A-18 was preparing to land at Miramar Marine Corps Air Station in San Diego when the jet plunged into a suburban neighborhood in University City, an area of single-family homes that sits across Interstate 805 from the west end of the air station’s flight line.

[leftchick]

7. he was over water with one engine still working

he was directed back to base over land when the second engine failed they ejected and the jet "fell like a rock". as per cnn this am.

One neighbor interviewed was livid and said this isn't the first or last time this has happened. It also fell just shy of a public school. Can you imagine?

:(

[Hepburn]

8. OMG....

...there is a school in line of the flight path of these planes???

:wow:

Yes...holy shit...if that plane had hit that school. What happened is horrible as hell...but, OMG, if it had hit the school and exploded there!

Something needs to be done, IMO.

[leftchick]

14. a typical military response will be

a cover up. :(

[Hepburn]

17. Yep...

...and somehow the government will try and blame it on the residents. Such as: Well, they KNEW they were in the flight path.

JMHO

[bdab1973]

26. A few things...

First, there is no reason for a cover-up...aircraft crash from time to time...just like cars crash from time to time. If the pilot screwed something up, he or she will be held accountable.

Second, the residents did know they were in the flight path. Miramar has been there since the 1940s, before that area was ever developed. People bought land and built houses next to it, fully aware there was an airfield there. I don't know if you've ever been around an airfield with military jet traffic, but if you have, you'd know it's hard to ignore because they aren't the quietest aircraft. Any home buyer would have to know there was a military airfield there, or be deaf. So now it's the military's fault because people chose to buy a home right under the approach and departure paths of the aircraft that have been flying there for nearly six decades? Please...

This is a tragedy, no doubt. But it's stupid to start blaming the military and assuming they are working round the clock to "cover it up". Cover what up? It was a freakin' accident, people.

[slackmaster]

37. The big concrete runways were built in 1943, the base has been military since 1917

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Corps_Air_Station_Miramar

[Lars39]

24. The pilot and whoever directed him back over land....

:grr:

[bdab1973]

28. So why are you pissed off at them?

"whoever directed him back over land"...

Sure, blame the controllers...they were doing their job. Aircraft lose engines all the time...I've had four engine failures in the past few years, and did I choose to ditch the airplane into the ocean? NO, I flew it back to the runway with the remaining power I had, and hoped nothing else went wrong.

As for the pilot...seriously...like he or she WANTED to crash? Give me a break...I suppose if you have a tire blow out, lose control of your car, and hit a pedestrian on the sidewalk, you'd deserve everyone's wrath and judgement too, right?

[Lars39]

35. Less loss of life if kept over water.

[bdab1973]

39. I am sure if they KNEW...

that the airplane was going to wind up being uncontrollable, they would have remained over water...but it's most likely that the airplane suffered problems but was still recoverable...

[Name removed]

40. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[elocs]

2. Our lives all hang by threads that may be broken at any time, so life is precious.

Death is no respecter of persons.

[Phoonzang]

4. That is a random and odd way to die.

We always think of disease, car wrecks, old age, etc. But never a fighter jet crashing into your house.

[elocs]

9. That depends. I live 2 miles from my airport and planes routinely fly over my house.

We had the Blue Angels give an air show and one of the jets flew very, very close over the roof of my house. So I would not be surprised if a plane crashed in my neighborhood.

[Phoonzang]

10. Yeah where I grew up I was right over the landing path for Hobby Airport

I went through a phase when I was a kid thinking that every plane that passed over was going to crash into the house. Planes went over something like every 2 minutes so as you can imagine there was a lot of fear there.

[slackmaster]

11. The landing corridor for the San Diego airport used to go right over my neighborhood

They moved it south to be over a freeway, after the 1978 crash of PSA Flight 182.

[RebelOne]

45. I work in an office park across the highway from Dobbins

Air Reserve base in Marietta, Georgia. Many times, those planes have come down very low, but I have never been concerned. Mostly because I have done some flying myself and have faith in those pilots' abilities.

[mikelgb]

20. I have thought of this

I am in the flight path of a municipal airport and sometimes I have to run outside because the sound way to low and loud.

I have also seen and heard many military craft, mostly those double prop choppers.

[Hepburn]

6. Why in the hell where they checking out this plane using a young pilot...

...and an area right on top of homes? Check this out:

The military recently investigated the type of fighter jet that crashed into a San Diego neighborhood.

Three people were killed when the F-18 hornet crashed.

The Navy says it recently inspected hundreds of the Boeing built Hornets after discovering "fatigue cracks" on a dozen planes.

http://www.necn.com/Boston/Nation/2008/12/09/Child-missing-3-people-killed/1228819681.html

[Lex1775]

13. Depending on how long he has been flying...

He may already have hundreds of hours in the F/A-18. For Marine and Navy pilots carrier qualifications wouldn't be anything out of the ordinary.

[bdab1973]

30. Look at the squadron...

The airplane was from VMFA(T)-101...it's quite possible the pilot was a newbie learning carrier qual in the Hornet. If that's the case, he or she only had about 50 or so hours in the jet. But...you gotta learn somewhere. You don't just "make" pilots that suddenly have thousands of hours in F/A-18s.

[Lex1775]

46. He was the only one in the plane.

That usually means they have at least 100 hours with an instructor in the backseat... that's how it was when I was in the USAF, USMC might be different.

[bdab1973]

29. That's not the case at all...

The aircraft was a F/A-18D, the two seat version of the F/A-18C. It's used to train F/A-18 pilots, and the squadron it belonged to was the FRS (Fleet Replenishment Squadron), VMFA(T)-101. The (T) indicates it's a training unit. The mission of the squadron is to train new F/A-18 pilots. Most of the students coming to the FRS have recently graduated from Navy/Marine flight training and recently received their wings. It takes about 2 years to train a pilot in the Navy, and on average, most new F/A-18 student pilots are in their mid-20s.

The fatigue cracks probably played little or no role in this accident. If it did, the airplane would have broken up in flight. Instead it sounds like it had engine issues...and when a fighter loses all engine power, it's a rock...they are designed to go fast, not glide really far.

[Hepburn]

12. The video links on this page are incredible...

...especially when viewed full screen. Shocking...:cry:

http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/Grandma-Mom-Baby-Killed-in-SoCal-Jet-Crash.html

[leftchick]

15. think of the jet fuel

that place is now toxic for the whole neighborhood.

[Hepburn]

16. This is going to be a total mess to try and clean up.

I feel so sorry for the families involved and the neighborhood in general. This is never, IMO, going to be right again.

[T Wolf]

18. Shouldn't all military pilots have as standing orders to avoid dumping their aircraft onto

populated areas? IMO, they should ride the damn plane all the way into the ground if there is the slightest chance that innocents on the ground are at risk.

Where is military honor when the life of one pilot (who has assumed the risks of being a military pilot) is worth more than an untold (and possibly disastrous) number of civilians on the ground?

[Hepburn]

22. I am sure that I am gonna be jumped on for this reply to you...

...but I totally agree.

IMO, part of being in the military is the risk taking...and that to me means specifically taking risks to protect civilian lives.

Now, I don't have all the facts and maybe there was NOTHING the pilot could do to keep the plane from going the direction it was headed and if he had ridden it down, there would be an additional death, his.

[bdab1973]

32. Your second statement is correct...

"Riding" the airplane into the ground would only result in one more fatality. Best the pilot could do at that point is try and get it pointed away, and punch out. And uncontrollable airplane is just that...uncontrollable. Hopefully things will work out and no one dies...but sometimes it doesn't work out that way.

I'm a military pilot, and honestly, I think the two of you have a really skewed view...just because I'm in the military doesn't mean my life means nothing. After all, I have a family too, and perhaps you can explain to them why you think my life isn't really worth the same as those on the ground. I'll do what I can to prevent the airplane from crashing, but if I were this pilot, I would have done what he (or she) did...I would have pulled the handle and hoped and prayed for the best.

[county worker]

23. I think the plane was not controllable. If it was he would have landed at Miramar.

It seems to me the jet lost power and was falling. I don't think the pilot could make it fall were he wanted.

Jets fly in and out of Miramar daily practicing landings. We use to go watch them. Out of hundreds of thousands of fly overs, crashing one is a rare thing.

San Diego being a military town can be a risky place to live.

[slackmaster]

31. He was unable even to put it down in Rose Canyon right next to the base

One more little thing people from the area don't realize - Immediately east of I-805 in that area is a major power transmission line. I'm sure the pilot was well aware of that, and made every effort to clear not only the freeway but that line, to the several miles of vacant land to the east.

[bdab1973]

33. Here's how things work...

I no longer fly ejection-seat aircraft....but I did when I was in pilot training. An ejection sequence is initiated when the aircraft is no longer controllable...in other words, there's nothing else you can do. Every base has an "ejection" area, where if the airplane is mildly controllable (but an ejection is likely), you try to take it there first...ie, an uninhabited area. But those situations are rare, most ejection scenarios involve aircraft that have or are becoming rapidly uncontrollable for some reason or another. In that case, you TRY to point the jet in a good direction, but that by no means guarantees anything...if the airplane is in a low energy state (ie, low speed, low altitude), it's not going to get very far, and may stall into the ground, which is probably what happened in this instance.

Second, consider WHO was flying...VMFA(T)-101 is a training unit, it trains new F/A-18 pilots. Likely, the person flying this airplane had recently graduated Navy pilot training, and was finishing up the initial qualification course in the F/A-18. He or she was probably very inexperienced. Does that make them dangerous? No, the training is very good and the standards are very high. BUT, like teenagers learning to drive, they don't have much experience to fall back on and make "out of the box" decisions. I'm not saying that caused this accident, but it probably didn't help either.

Before everyone jumps on the Navy and Marine Corps for letting young pilots fly the F/A-18, realize that everyone has to start somewhere. You don't just suddenly become experienced. Every experienced pilot started out as a newbie with very little experience. At one point, I remember being a very young Lieutenant in charge of my own airplane...the learning curve is steep, and the standards are very high because they have to be. It's not a forgiving career field, so paying attention, adhering to standards and working hard to learn more isn't just part of the job, it's part of your survival.

In any case, this is a tragic accident. I really feel bad for the family, and I feel bad for the pilot. I know he or she probably tried to do their best, but today it just wasn't good enough, and more than likely nothing they did could have changed the outcome much. It's easy for us to sit back and Monday morning quarterback the pilot, but unless you've been there and done that, it's just poor taste to do so.

What I'm getting at with that last statement...I've already seen lots of people on this thread doing the "well, I'm not an F/A-18 pilot, but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night...and I think the pilot should have blah blah blah blah." Whatever.

[slackmaster]

36. Thanks for your service and your commentary

:hi:

[Dreamer Tatum]

44. Good post

There are people here who are certain they can run General Motors, so it shouldn't be a surprise that
they think they can safely negotiate a failing, sophisticated jet aircraft.

[slackmaster]

19. I've lived in San Diego since 1962 - We have about one crash of a military aircraft per year

This is the first time I can recall any civilian casualties.

Usually planes and helos go down either in the ocean, or on a military base. The Marines and the Navy have an excellent safety record in spite of the greed-motivated policies of our city leaders to hand every bit of buildable land over to commercial and residential developers.

[Ilsa]

48. Oh, so they are the ones responsible for the crowding. See my

post below:

53. Flight training should take place in nowheresville, IMO.

Where I am in south Texas, pilots trained on primary jets in small cities in the middle of fucking nowhere. No glamorous, sexy nightclubs or restaurants for the staff and pilots to adjourn to every few days. Pissed the ranchers off because the noises bothered their cattle, but too bad. No jets ever ended up in someone's living room, whether there were mechanical issues, training issues, etc.

So terrible. I wonder if these neighborhoods are just too close to these naval air stations and AF bases.

[slackmaster]

50. I've been fighting to preserve open space for almost 40 years

Yes, it's the fault of corrupt city governments and greedy developers.

[mtnester]

21. Such a tragedy...3 generations dead

and a young pilot who most likely will suffer with the guilt his entire life.

Terrible for everyone.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

27. My first reaction to your post was, "Guilt? Why the hell should he feel guilty?"

But then again, it's common in situations of extreme grief, for the brain to come up with reasons to feel guilty. "I should be there to die with them," "I should have chosen a different place to live," etc etc.

Fuck. The pain must be unbearable. :cry:

[bdab1973]

34. I'm sure the pilot will feel bittersweet...

On one hand, he (or she) lives again, and their family didn't suffer a loss as well. On the other hand, another family lost. Sometimes things happen that way.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

38. I has teh dumbth.

I read it as if you were talking about the father who lost his family.

Feel free to beat me with a dried and salted codfish.

[bdab1973]

41. True..

...but the original post you replied to spoke about the guilt of the pilot.

Regardless, it's probably not a good day for either of them.

[wtmusic]

42. Thx for input.

:thumbsup:

[LisaL]

54. Well four people are dead.

His plane killed them. Even though there was no intent to kill these people, they are dead just the same. If you kill someone unintentionally in a car crash, for instance, would you not feel guilty?

[slackmaster]

61. I would not want to be in that pilot's shoes right now

This could be a career-ending event because of the emotional trauma, and will certainly follow him for the rest of his life.

[Dreamer Tatum]

43. Evidently the pilot was very shaken up and his first thought was for what and whom the plane hit

Something for people to keep in mind: the plane crashed near Miramar. Miramar is the base for thousands of Marines.
The surrounding areas - Mira Mesa, Scripps Ranch, Claremont Mesa, Claremont, UC - are chock full of military families.
The men and women who train over San Diego are well aware of this fact. This is HOME for them. It's just a terrible shame that
the plane couldn't go down in the brush area just east of Miramar, where there is nothing between Scripps and Tierrasanta.

[Ilsa]

47. Flight training should take place in nowheresville, IMO.

Where I am in south Texas, pilots trained on primary jets in small cities in the middle of fucking nowhere. No glamorous, sexy nightclubs or restaurants for the staff and pilots to adjourn to every few days. Pissed the ranchers off because the noises bothered their cattle, but too bad. No jets ever ended up in someone's living room, whether there were mechanical issues, training issues, etc.

So terrible. I wonder if these neighborhoods are just too close to these naval air stations and AF bases.

[slackmaster]

49. Miramar was the middle of fucking nowhere for most of its existence

Rampant development of the surrounding area created the present situation. When I first lived in San Diego, pilots could get from the base to the ocean without flying over any populated areas.

So terrible. I wonder if these neighborhoods are just too close to these naval air stations and AF bases.

Homes that were first sold in the area just north of the base, in the '70s, went for heavily discounted prices. Why? Because they were right next to the base.

[Ilsa]

52. So all the restrictions were lifted or nonexistant to begin with.

"pilots could get from the base to the ocean without flying over any populated areas." That's the key -- allowing development to occur so close to the bases. I think alot of land like that should be treated like a mine field.

[slackmaster]

53. Treating it as a nature preserve would have accomplished the same goal

I get physically ill when I think about the amount of coastal sage scrub, finger canyons, vernal pools, etc. that have been destroyed for development in the last 40 years.

At this moment I am in a building that sits on a mesa just east of UCSD. When I was in college, there were several very large vernal pools here. During wet winters they would become ponds buzzing with life - Frogs, toads, lizards, snakes, small mammals, birds, and all kinds of interesting plants. There were edible wild onions, puffballs, etc.

Now the asphalt parking lot sinks in several places every time it rains hard.

[bdab1973]

58. You're assuming...

...that military aircraft crash all the time. They don't. On average, the Air Force loses only a handful of airplanes a year. While not AS safe as civilian flying (airliners don't do any of the things we do, like low-level routes, cargo airdrop, landing on dirt runways at night with night vision goggles, etc), it IS as safe as civilian flying when you count out the military-specific things we do. In other words, military flying is as safe as civilian flying when it comes to routine takeoff, landing and cruise flight.

Another thing you need to understand, I fly over civilians ALL THE TIME. I fly over populated areas all the time, it's just the nature of flying. If you restrict aircraft to only unpopulated areas, you wouldn't get very far. The benefit of having aircraft is the range they give you, whether it's the range to drop munitions or the range to carry cargo. That in itself means you must fly over land, and flying over land means you must fly over people. What would be the purpose of restricting aircraft to only flying over the ocean?

The type of accident that occurred in San Diego is a very rare accident. Your family has a greater chance of dying in a car accident...many times greater. You have about an equal chance of dying from a civilian aircraft plowing into your house...

Case in point...in Conway, Arkansas last year, a civilian business jet overshot the runway and plowed into a house, killing the pilot and the occupants of the house...you didn't see cries to ban the air traffic, people just accepted it as a risk. And it is a risk...risk is everywhere you look. But because a handful of the 300,000,000+ million people die in a freak accident like this one doesn't mean that it's suddenly an extremely high risk.

[Ilsa]

62. You're not telling me anything I didn't already know.

I've lived around the military flight community for a big part of my life and have met many in different areas and stages of the pipeline. I'm not suggesting all flight be restricted. But due to the nature of some types of training, I prefer that the risk be minimized to rural areas as much as possible.

And we both know it is a different kind of pilot that flies the commercial aircraft versus the F/A-18.

[bdab1973]

63. You're not telling me anything I didn't already know either...

"And we both know it is a different kind of pilot that flies the commercial aircraft versus the F/A-18"

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by this...are you saying that military pilots aren't as well trained? That they take more risks? Not sure...

In any case, military pilots are BETTER trained than most commercial pilots. You'd be surprised to know that many of the pilots flying commuter airliners have only about 1,000 hours of experience, and that perhaps all but 100-200 hours of that is flying small single-engine Cessnas. Don't believe me? My best friend went that route...he had about 1000 hours of time, and most of it was flying light airplanes, and the other couple hundred hours were flying small twin engined airplanes like a Cessna 310, which isn't much bigger.

By the time a military pilot gets to train in an F/A-18, they've probably had their private pilot's license for some time...I personally had about 100 hours flying Cessnas. Then I got another 300 hours flying jet primary trainers and finally the T-1A. What's the T-1A? It's a Raytheon Beechjet 400A painted white with US Air Force painted on the side.

So I had more advanced jet time when I went to my first aircraft-specific qualification course than most commuter pilots have when they step aboard a CRJ airliner for the first time. Let's not forget the standards required of both paths...military training requires you to achieve specific high standards by certain points in the program, or you're out. In USAF training, you soloed with 15-20 hours under your belt....if you couldn't meet the standards to solo by then, you got kicked out. In the civilian training programs, you solo when they think you're ready, so long as you continue to put out the cash for flight training. While the average student solos a Cessna in 15-20 hours, I've seen some civilian students take over 100 hours of instruction before they were able to solo safely. They kept writing the checks, and the instructors kept instructing. Many of those guys go on to get airline jobs. I'm not saying ALL civilian trained airline pilots are like that (read the part where I said MOST solo within normal times), but there are some that get through because the civilian program isn't merit based, it's based on your ability to keep paying for the training.

You also need to understand that it's impossible to do certain types of training over water. I could go into detail, but it would likely take up too much of your time and you probably wouldn't read it anyways.

[Ilsa]

66. Most of the commercial pilots I had met over the years are former

military pilots, mostly Navy and Marine Corps. One described his training with a large commercial airline as the most rigorous of his life, and he had been tops in his class in the military, instructor, etc. I've known a few who have died in accidents, and in one particular death, there had been a series of nonfatal crashed over several months due to aircraft fatigue, cannibalization of parts, etc for that aircraft. Another guy I knew had been assigned to a craft that would soon be retired. He was not a happy camper about the risks associated with that.

Maybe more commercial pilots now went another (private training) route? I suppose it depends on available slots for pilots in the military, and whether commercial airlines are expanding or contracting. The bulk of my experience with the industry occured in the 1980s, 1990s, although I still have friends in commercial aviation.

One point though: most of the military pilots I've known, both men and women, were younger and were risk-takers. Those that were in commercial aviation were older and more conservative in how they approached managing risk in their lives.

On edit: I don't know what the deal is about training over water that you mentioned. I don't rememebr saying anything about that, I prefer keeping as much of it rural as possible, like it was in south Texas for two of the jet training commands for the Navy. "Nowheresville." And govt should keep the developers at bay.

[bdab1973]

67. Things have changed a bit

Since the military downsized considerably, and the airline market became more competitive, civilian trained pilots are rising in the airline industry as a percentage. You're right, in the 1980s, most airline pilots were military (I don't know about mostly Navy...Southwest Airlines loves Air Force guys). But it's been two decades since the 1980s and there just aren't as many military pilots around now. I think some airlines approach or exceed 50% of their pilots coming from civilian sources. The commuters are particularly seeing a huge decline in military-trained pilots...I'd say, best guess, that my friend's airline (Trans States Airlines...does commuter for American and US Air), probably 90% of the pilots there are civilian-trained.

Commercial airlines are seeing many younger pilots enter the ranks...people that started their civilian flying careers very young (18) and got the required minimum hours to fly with a major airline in their 20s. It's not incredibly common, but it happens. The military does have young pilots by virtue that they hire and train their own (airlines don't do that), but there are plenty of older, more seasoned military pilots out there as well. I'm about your "typical" average military pilot...I'm mid- to late-30s, and I have around 3,000 hours of flying time. I'm not an amateur. While many civilian-trained pilots have been instructors in their younger years flying Cessnas, I'm currently an instructor teaching brand-new students how to fly C-130s, a challenge most non-military pilots will never have to face.

I'd say the younger guys might be risk-takers, but most military pilots are not overly risky. We like living, honestly. We've been around the block enough to know that taking too much risk is a good way to die young. The young guys get mentored by the older pilots, and eventually they come around to understanding something we refer to in the military as "operational risk management". There is risk in everything you do, but some things aren't worth it.

As for training over water or exclusively unpopulated areas, part of the syllabus for any primary flying program is learning to fly VFR and IFR in the national airspace system. That means filing flight plans on federal airways, which inevitably requires these aircraft to fly over cities and towns (where many of the navigational aids for these airways are located). They also learn how to operate into various different airfield environments, to include civilian airports. When I trained in the T-37, we flew to Fort Worth Alliance airport and did some training patterns there, and also flew to Laredo. When I moved on to the T-1, we would go to airfields like Midland TX, San Angelo TX, El Paso TX, Laredo TX, Harlingen TX, and also Corpus Christi, New Orleans, Pensacola and Alexandria LA. All of that was part of the syllabus to train us students how to navigate and operate throughout the country. Airplanes are designed for travel, after all. Makes no sense to train pilots that can't get around the country.

[bdab1973]

64. You're not telling me anything I didn't already know either...

"And we both know it is a different kind of pilot that flies the commercial aircraft versus the F/A-18"

I'm trying to figure out what you mean by this...are you saying that military pilots aren't as well trained? That they take more risks? Not sure...

In any case, military pilots are BETTER trained than most civilian-trained commercial pilots. You'd be surprised to know that many of the pilots flying commuter airliners have only about 1,000 hours of experience, and that perhaps all but 100-200 hours of that is flying small single-engine Cessnas. Don't believe me? My best friend went that route...he had about 1000 hours of time, and most of it was flying light airplanes, and the other couple hundred hours were flying small twin engined airplanes like a Cessna 310, which isn't much bigger.

By the time a military pilot gets to train in an F/A-18, they've probably had their private pilot's license for some time...I personally had about 100 hours flying Cessnas. Then I got another 300 hours flying jet primary trainers and finally the T-1A. What's the T-1A? It's a Raytheon Beechjet 400A painted white with US Air Force painted on the side.

You also need to consider all the civilian airports around you that you apparently don't see as a safety issue...you only seem to indicate military airfields are dangerous. Next time you see a Cessna flying over your house, you need to realize there's about a 50% chance that it's a 17 year old kid flying it as a student pilot, and another 40% chance that it's someone with a private pilot's license and only 100 hours total flying experience. You don't know this apparently, but there are inexperienced people flying all over San Diego even as we type this.

So I had more advanced jet time when I went to my first aircraft-specific qualification course than most commuter pilots have when they step aboard a CRJ airliner for the first time. Let's not forget the standards required of both paths...military training requires you to achieve specific high standards by certain points in the program, or you're out. In USAF training, you soloed with 15-20 hours under your belt....if you couldn't meet the standards to solo by then, you got kicked out. In the civilian training programs, you solo when they think you're ready, so long as you continue to put out the cash for flight training. While the average student solos a Cessna in 15-20 hours, I've seen some civilian students take over 100 hours of instruction before they were able to solo safely. They kept writing the checks, and the instructors kept instructing. Many of those guys go on to get airline jobs. I'm not saying ALL civilian trained airline pilots are like that (read the part where I said MOST solo within normal times), but there are some that get through because the civilian program isn't merit based, it's based on your ability to keep paying for the training.

You also need to understand that it's impossible to do certain types of training over water. I could go into detail, but it would likely take up too much of your time and you probably wouldn't read it anyways.

[bdab1973]

59. I am a big believer that the areas surrounding airfields

should be commercial use or open land. Not just military airfields, but all airports. And not necessarily for safety reasons either, but mostly for noise.

Working in the aviation industry for going on two decades now, I've seen more trouble with surrounding cities over noise than safety issues. It boggles my mind how people can shop for a house, a process that takes days, and NOT notice the jet noise overhead...and then a while later complain and sign petitions to close the airport, as though the airport intruded on THEM.

The base I attended pilot training at, Laughlin AFB, is about 10-15 miles east of Del Rio, TX. Back when I went to training there, it was desert scrub around the base. A good friend of mine just got an assignment there to instruct, and he was telling me how the base is trying very hard to fight developers who want to build subdivisions under the approach and departure path of the three runways. The base has won so far...but it's only a matter of time before they lose. And once they lose that battle, it will set the precedent and people will flood into that area, and noise complaints will likely skyrocket.

They fly T-1, T-38 and T-6 aircraft out of Laughlin, and the T-38s have afterburners. The T-1s aren't real loud, but they've got a very distinctive whine to them and I could easily hear it while inside (I lived on base back then). The T-6s weren't there when I was going through training...we had the T-37s, which have since been retired...thank God the T-37s are gone because they are loud, high pitched and annoying...it took months for me to get used to the sound of them flying overhead.

We had jokes about the T-37..."7,000 lb dog whistle"...."7,000 lb device for converting fuel into noise"...etc. It's nickname was the Tweet...not necessarily because it looked like Tweety bird, but because of the high pitch engine noise. The T-6s are single-engine turboprops...I've seen them flying around and they don't seem to be that noisy, but I haven't ever lived under them.

[slackmaster]

60. Here's another interesting tidbit - Consultants warned the city about this in 1979

...The F/A-18D missed University City High School by a quarter-mile. In 1979, a defense researcher warned in a report against building the school or houses too close to the end of the Miramar runway. Many residents fought construction of the school for 17 years because of safety and environmental issues, but the school's backers prevailed, and University City High opened in 1981.

“A substantial threat of a catastrophic accident exists in the community west of Miramar,” said Jerry Kopecek, the study's author, who was then a vice president for the Navy consultant Science Applications Inc. The company is now known as SAIC.

Don Yoon, now 37, and Youngmi Lee, 36, were married four years ago.
Kopecek, now retired, said he looked at half a century of data showing that most crashes occurred within two miles of the end of a runway.

The predictions of long-ago consultants and activists meant little to Don Yoon yesterday as he grieved for his family....

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20081210/news_1n10jet.html

I was one of the voices opposed to the construction of University City High School at the time. Sometimes feeling vindicated sucks as badly as being proved wrong.

[bdab1973]

56. Apples and oranges...

This wasn't primary flight training...the students at VMFA(T)-101 are winged, qualified naval aviators. They are only there to get qualified in the F/A-18. Some are young Lieutenants, like the guy involved here, others are more experienced aviators transitioning from other airframes.

Your claim that primary training only occurs in small cities is wrong also. Sheppard AFB trains students in Wichita Falls, TX. Pensacola NAS trains primary students in Pensacola, FL. Corpus Christi NAS trains primary students in Corpus Christi, TX. Williams AFB was open for years training primary students right outside Phoenix, AZ, but was closed about 15 years ago.

I think the "glamorous, sexy nightclubs" comment was in reference to the infamous "Top Gun" movie, where pilots are always seen in clubs at night chasing ladies. Please, that is fiction. Many pilots are married with families...I was when I went through primary flight training (at Laughlin AFB, which IS in the middle of nowhere, and my wife HATED it there). The others that are single are like any other single people...they don't live in a night club.

This thread goes to show that non-military people love to stereotype, and they base their ideas on military aviation from watching too much Hollywood.

[Eugene]

51. AP: Congressional aide says crashed jet lost power

Source: Associated Press

Congressional aide says crashed jet lost power

By Elliot Spagat, Associated Press Writer – 4 mins ago

SAN DIEGO – Both engines of a military jet fighter
failed before the aircraft crashed and burned in a
residential area, killing four people on the ground
as it destroyed two houses, a congressional aide said
Tuesday.

Investigators resumed the search for a missing child,
believed to be 15 months old, in the wreckage of one
house. Neighbors were in shock at the tragedy that
befell the child's family Monday, hours after the
father kissed his wife and baby goodbye in the
driveway.

-snip-

No official initial finding of the cause of the crash
was given, but a congressional aide who had been
briefed on the crash said the pilot had been attempting
to land at Miramar after his right engine malfunctioned.
The aide spoke on condition of anonymity because the
information was not yet public.

While the pilot was on final approach to the runway
the aircraft also lost thrust from its left engine,
and the pilot ejected, the aide said Tuesday.

-snip-

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20081209/ap_on_re_us/military_jet_crash

[ericgtr]

55. Here is the statement from the surviving member

From CNN

SAN DIEGO, California (CNN) -- A Korean immigrant who lost his wife, two children and mother-in-law when a Marine Corps jet slammed into the family's house said Tuesday he did not blame the pilot, who ejected and survived.

"Please pray for him not to suffer from this accident," a distraught Dong Yun Yoon told reporters gathered near the site of Monday's crash of an F/A-18D jet in San Diego's University City community.

"He is one of our treasures for the country," Yoon said in accented English punctuated by long pauses while he tried to maintain his composure.

"I don't blame him. I don't have any hard feelings. I know he did everything he could," said Yoon, flanked by members of San Diego's Korean community, relatives and members from the family's church.

Authorities said four people died when the jet crashed into the Yoon family's house while the pilot was trying to reach nearby Marine Corps Air Station Miramar. Another, unoccupied house also was destroyed.

Yoon named the victims as his infant daughter Rachel, who was born less than two months ago; his 15-month-old daughter Grace; his wife, Young Mi Yoon, 36; and her 60-year-old mother, Suk Im Kim, who he said had come to the United States from Korea recently to help take care of the children.

Fighting back tears, he said of his daughters: "I cannot believe that they are not here right now."

"I know there are many people who have experienced more terrible things," Yoon said. "But, please, tell me how to do it. I don't know what to do."

My God I could not think of anything more "terrible". What can you even say to this. :(

[Nikki Stone1]

57. More accurate info here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4611905#4620849

[YvonneCa]

65. Link to today's SDUnionTribune. Really sad...

...update:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20081210/