UN official: Enough evidence to prosecute Rumsfeld for war crimes

[laststeamtrain]

Source: Raw Story

UN official: Enough evidence to prosecute Rumsfeld for war crimes
David Edwards and Stephen C. Webster
Published: Monday January 26, 2009

Monday, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on Torture Manfred Nowak told CNN's Rick Sanchez that the US has an "obligation" to investigate whether Bush administration officials ordered torture, adding that he believes that there is already enough evidence to prosecute former Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld.

"We have clear evidence," he said. "In our report that we sent to the United Nations, we made it clear that former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld clearly authorized torture methods and he was told at that time by Alberto Mora, the legal council of the Navy, 'Mr. Secretary, what you are actual ordering here amounts to torture.' So, there we have the clear evidence that Mr. Rumsfeld knew what he was doing but, nevertheless, he ordered torture."

Asked during an interview with Germany's ZDF television on Jan. 20, Nowak said: "I think the evidence is on the table."

At issue, however, is whether "American law will recognize these forms of torture."

Read more: http://rawstory.com/news/2008/UN_official_Enough_evidence_to_prosecute_0126.html

[laststeamtrain]

1. Andrew Sullivan: Rumsfeld's Intervention

Rumsfeld's Intervention
Andrew Sullivan

When I first heard of alleged mistreatment at Guantanamo Bay, I went on record scoffing at it. Pure Qaeda propaganda, it seemed to me. Why was I so dismissive? Because I knew the US armed forces would never torture or mistreat prisoners systematically. Maybe a few violations that would be disciplined - but the idea of a vast array of methodically planned and executed outrages against human dignity was absurd. Besides, I told myself, no president would be so crazy as to launch a war of ideas against Jihadism by torturing Muslims and exploiting specific cultural Muslim taboos.

We know the rest. But yesterday's WaPo has some new detail. It tells the story of how the military did indeed first approach Gitmo - humanely, in concert with the International Red Cross. That's not surprising and what most of us just assumed. The rank and file have been relentlessly trained in humane treatment and the Geneva standards. This was America, after all, and there are some things one just takes for granted.

But we didn't account for Bush. Humane treatment was terminated when Donald Rumsfeld intervened to order torture and abuse out of a frantic pursuit of intelligence. The Rumsfeld-Cheney-Addington axis keeps saying that the torture emanated from below and that they merely accommodated demands from soldiers and interrogators. In Gitmo, at least, the reverse was true. It was Bush and Cheney who intervened - judging that only torture could work and making successful prosecution of the worst terrorists now impossible. It is Bush and Cheney and their civilian clique who need to be held accountable...http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2009/01/rumsfelds-tortu.html

[acmavm]

2. Should happen. Needs to happen. But it won't.

[grahamhgreen]

25. I Know. And we'll NEVER HAVE A BLACK PRESIDENT IN OUR LIFETIMES, EITHER.

[acmavm]

30. That was really on point.

[valerief]

33. Do you think justice will REALLY be served this time? It would be a novelty, for sure. nt

[Jambalaya]

65. California Dreamin'

Stanford University, that knows a thing or two about NeoCons-(Condi was a provost there)-gave shelter and honor to Rumsfeld upon his retiremnt from the Bush regime.

Rumsfeld Appointment Draws "Fierce Protests" At Stanford UniversitySep 21, 2007 ... The facts: Rumsfeld is a lying warmongering son of a bitch, just like Bushtard. And Stanford doesn't want to be associated with him in ...
www.huffingtonpost.com/2007/09/21/rumsfeld-appointment-draw_n_65369.html - 117k - Cached - Similar pages


Rice is rumored to return to Stanford,also,BTW.

[toymachines]

40. Well put!

negativity is going to be a lot harder around here with that comeback in the pocket.

[kmac3]

26. Prosecuting Those Responsible For Torture

It is my opinion that if America does not prosecute those responsible for torture the results will dictate that we condone this treatment. We will continue to be viewed as a ugly, rogue nation by the rest of the world. We must demonstrate openly and forcefully what we are saying to regain our once admirable standing.

[defendandprotect]

51. By the time someone like Sullivan begins to admit

to something like this, justice has long been denied.

Those who have been trying to deny this all along usually take the easy way out --

jump the fence!

[Optical.Catalyst]

3. Bring all the criminals in the Bush Administration up on charges.

One will take immunity and hang the rest. It is only a question of which one is a light weight cry baby that doesn't want to go to jail.

Rumsfeld acts tough, but if faced with hard time in a Federal prison or selling out his comrades - I'd put my money on Rumsfeld singing like a canary.

[Chulanowa]

9. No deal for him

Too much blood on his hands. Not just Iraqi and Afghan, but also Iranian. The man fucking sold chemical and biological weapons to Iraq, there should be no quarter for him.

Rove will sing the moment you so much as threaten to put out a cigarette in his baby-soft palm. That's who you want to go after. Turdblossom knows the goods on everyone, has little direct involvement in any of it and so can be spared for immunity, and will cry like a bitch at a harshly-asked question.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

28. Rove

is going to prison for the rest of his stinkin fucking life.

[paparush]

15. Look for a mysterious heart attack (ala Ken Lay) coming to a Bush official near you.

[customerserviceguy]

32. Hmm

there was speculation yesterday about what would happen to Darth Vader's "undisclosed location".

[Politicalboi]

37. I bet it's Bush

He the biggest coward of them all. He'll be crying on the stand. LOL!

[xxqqqzme]

53. I'm w/ you.

asswipe will be shaking, hiding under the bed. There is nothing honorable about him. His heritage is thick w/ cowardice. Why else would they all operate in the shadows relying on their money & power?

[annabanana]

4. Until Holder is confirmed... we are in a holding pattern..

just circling the airport.

[proud2BlibKansan]

13. And they are doing all they can to keep that from happening

Damn Republicans.

[buckrogers1965]

5. I feel sorry for the neocons.

They are so afraid of everything and so cowardly that they will even go as far as to torture people. Makes me feel sorry for those poor scared people.

But then I realize exactly how horrible of people they are. It nauseates me that they could treat anyone as badly as they did those mostly innocent people at Guantanamo Bay.

Remember when we hear about the "isolated" torture at Abu Ghraib? Remember how we were told those soldiers were acting on their own? That was all a lie. The white house sent those soldiers up the river, sent them to prison, for following orders that came right out of the oval office.

Those cowardly bastards in the White House scapegoated the enlisted personnel at that prison to protect themselves.

[proud2BlibKansan]

14. I don't feel sorry for them

They are about to get away with it all.

[Jambalaya]

64. Skull and Crossbones

Is it just me ,but doesn't Rumsfeld look like a grinning skull?

[democrank]

6. We will either stand up against this barbarism

or we`ll continue our downward spiral.

[defendandprotect]

52. I certainly agree --- as long as we don't stand strongly against it . . .

we are giving silent agreement to it --

[struggle4progress]

7. bounce-n-recommend

:bounce:

[Clarence Birdseye]

8. The UN sees an error in others.

The UN has a position? The UN?

They have a long way to go before they can be taken seriously about anything.

Seems we are still waiting for a definitive study of the oil for food program.

[Chulanowa]

11. Welcome to DU

Grab a complimentary bar of toffee before you leave :)

[northernlights]

18. don't let the shoe kick you

on your way out.

Your cowardly thugs tortured prisoners, and made the soldiers at the bottom their scapegoats.

Sooner or later, there will be justice. If not U.S. justice in a U.S. court, than international justice at the Hague.

[jpak]

21. Obama's "Blue Helmets" are marching down your street as a I type this

One World!

One Government!

:rofl:

[ronnie624]

59. Here are some facts about the Oil-for-Food program,

just in case you're genuinely interested:

<http://www.oilforfoodfacts.org/>

[patrick t. cakes]

71. george galloway

might have an answer for you. just ask norm coleman.

[tclambert]

75. They have a position, but do they have the balls to do anything about it?

[ronnie624]

77. These tirades against the UN are illogical.

They presume the organization has the power and autonomy to act where it clearly cannot.

The UN is not a sovereign entity, and has no military or police power outside that which is supplied by its members. It is supposed to be a democratic institution, but in reality, it does only what its most powerful member states allow. All of the members are subject to the hegemonic influence of the U.S. and its Western allies. If the U.S. political power system - the global hegemonic power - cannot bring itself to "do anything" about its own war criminals, what can anyone realistically expect the UN to do about them?

[dipsydoodle]

10. I don't see , in this context ,

that it really matters what "America recognises as forms of torture" He could be tried at The Hague as a war criminal.

[Mist]

19. I think America's being given the chance to prosecute. If we don't others will. nt

[Bragi]

39. Exactly so

If the US fails to prosecute, then anyone who wishes to can seek and serve an arrest warrant from the International Criminal Court.

This may or may not end up with prosecutions, but it sure will keep these American war criminals confined to the continental US for the rest of their lives.

Which would be proper and sweet.

- B

[Left Coast2020]

73. Yes. That Senator came out last week and said he would if

no one else did. So it seems to me that something is likely to happen. Ol' turd blossom is getting subpoenaed from Conyers, and if he doesn't show, he'll be wearing wrist bracelets. The neo-fascist criminals have simply got to be really nervous. The threat of prosecution is there and they don't have George to hide behind. There is just too much pressure on lawmakers to investigate these bastards. It can't be avoided. And I'll bet you a dollar to donuts that progressives are not the only ones pressuring congress to prosecute. So the necessity to do something is there. :nuke: :nuke: :nuke:

[leftynyc]

50. We don't belong to the world court

so if he doesn't leave the country, he'll spend the rest of his years a free man.

[Bragi]

54. Pretty much...

It is at least somewhat gratifying to know that Bush and his Bush thugs will be the first former U.S. administration leaders who won't be able to travel abroad for fear of Pinochet-like seizure and prosecution. It is also gratifying to know that, even in the U.S., they will spend the rest of their lives trying to live down the disgrace that their administration became. It's a unique and well deserved ignominy. Congrats to all.

- B

[leftynyc]

62. That administration was filled with the

most self delusional pricks I've ever seen. They are convinced they will be vindicated by history. They will never feel disgraced. Believe me, I would love to see them prosecuted right here in this country but it's never going to happen and I doubt even if they left the country that any of our allies has the balls to do it (and they wouldn't visit any who aren't our allies). So I'm just going to do my best to forget about them and look forward. I've seen too many criminal administrations not get what was coming to them.

[proud2BlibKansan]

12. Does the UN also send out strongly worded letters?

[L. Coyote]

48. All this is is a strongly worded message. Paper wastes trees, I guess.

[HEyHEY]

57. No, just emails - bulk

[Demeter]

16. Good Lord, I Should THINK So!

They probably have enough for two or three trials.

[biopowertoday]

17. Democrats need the political will now. My feeling is that it

is not there. Maybe a few have it but the nod has to come from the top.

[yellowcanine]

20. Rumsfield, Bush, Cheney et al. all bound for Paraguay???

My guess is that they have already worked a deal with the government there to make it very difficult to extradite them.

[Crowman1979]

23. That's unless the people of Paraguay stand up and overthrow the Colorado Party dictatorship.

And when they do they can either extradite the war criminals or excecute them in public for all I care.

[SomeGuyInEagan]

38. My pick in the office pool was Dubai ...

... about the time I read that Halliburton was preparing to set up shop there, I figured the gang would all follow. Frankly, I am surprised Cheney hasn't already left the country in a very public flip-off to all of us. That would fit his personality.

[Pithy]

44. I don't think Paraguay is as safe a hidey hole as Bush thinks

We all know the Bush family bought a huge spread in Paraguay, hoping to take advantage of that country's tradition of not extraditing criminals. However:

May 2008

"Last month, a former Roman Catholic Bishop with leftist, populist tendencies, Fernando Lugo, surprised almost everyone in Paraguay, and no doubt President Bush, by winning the national presidential election, ousting the Colorado Party for the first time in 61 years. There is talk that among other things, Lugo is thinking of returning Paraguay to the community of nations, by signing some of those extradition agreements."

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/lindorff/094

Does anyone know what Paraguay's current stance on extradition is?

[yellowcanine]

66. well maybe he will have to make use of a spiderhole as a hidey hole

Saddam like.

[justinaforjustice]

76. US Has Extradition Treaty With Paraguay

President Clinton signed an extradition treaty with Paraguay in 1998. With the successful election of a leftist, former Roman Catholic Bishop, Fernando Lugo, as president in April of 2008, it is highly unlikely that Paraguay would refuse to extradite members of the Bush-Cheney cabal should they seek to hide from international justice in that country.

[MADem]

22. I hope people aren't holding their breath and counting on a prosecution happening

Obama is just not going to throw Rumsfeld to the wolves. He's not stupid. He knows that what goes around can come around.

First, this is simply an opinion ("I THINK the evidence is on the table") by one guy (Nowak), and second, the US is not in the habit of bowing to international tribunals. We take our sovereignty very seriously. I strongly doubt Obama is going to cede an inch of our sovereign authority to outside actors. This doesn't mean Rumsfeld isn't a bum, just that he's not likely to be punished for being one.

Don't shoot the messenger, now.

[paparush]

24. Rumsfeld "dies" from mysterious heart ailment in 3..2..1

[Jefferson23]

27. K&R This could take years, but I too, feel it will come from the

will of the American public. The more information the general public hears, especially from those like the JAG officers who were so against this, these folks are not a group of bleeding heart liberals. They understood the law, they understood how dangerous the consequences can be for American soldiers as well.

I'm still waiting to see what happens with either a repeal of the MCA 2006, or if it will be found by the courts as unconstitutional. This would remove the immunity these bastards have in the United States at least.

[Initech]

29. Prosecute the motherfucker. Hopefully the rest will fall like dominos.

[DesertDiamond]

31. Rummy would be first on my list to prosecute...

The more I read about him, the more it looks like he has financial interests in every poisonous pie on this planet. Iraq, aspartame, the Tamiflu scam... what else?

[Jack Rabbit]

34. The UN can establish a special tribunal to prosecute Bush war crimes if necessary

Nevertheless, I think it would be better if this were done in federal court.

[Politicalboi]

35. If the shit is going to hit the fan

We should know on Monday if Rove Poo Poo's the subpoena and what is done about it. I think this time they will act. It couldn't hurt to e-mail President Obama and let him know how we all feel. And he did say he would hold people accountable. We need to push him. And see if the UN handles it we are out of the loop and WE can go forward after all. Bush is OUR monster, and it's the world's trial.

Some have already started to look at 9/11

http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2008/033108_un_investigation.htm

[Soylent Brice]

36. okay...

NOW can we prosecute???


does everything have to be fucking gift-wrapped?

[kmdemqueen]

41. good enough for me

This should get interesting real fast. If it ever get's to trial

[liberal N proud]

42. Glad to see someone is looking into this

[RoccoR5955]

43. FROG MARCH! FROG MARCH! I wanna see Rummy, and other members of Buscho, Inc. FROG MARCH! n/t

[madrchsod]

45. no one in this country will bring them to justice but....

maybe a law abiding country will.

[Rosa Luxemburg]

46. you can add 9/11 to his list

he allowed these attacks to happen. He was supposed to be in charge!

[sakabatou]

47. I want to his his sorry-ass in jail

[defendandprotect]

49. Thank you to United Nations .... !!! And I'm truly amazed there is

anything left of the UN after decades of attacks by the GOP to destroy it ---

Cheers to them -- one of the few speaking out strongly couraging action on torturers --

just as it should be.

[katty]

55. ok, let's do it!

[whistle]

56. Go for it!

[Piewhacket]

58. I'm a sudden fan of Manfred Nowak.

[bdamomma]

60. let the floodgates open let's prosecute them all.

[aquart]

61. Hang the privileged bastard.

[louis-t]

63. I can't wait to see the back and forth finger pointing.

"It wasn't me, it was HIMMMM!!!"

[truth2power]

67. Good!! Get on it, then!!

:woohoo:

[lovuian]

68. you betcha

thats one Old Man who deserves to be locked up

[Imagevision]

69. Rumsfeld, Rove and hopefully Cheney & Rice...

[IndianaGreen]

70. Unfortunately there is no death penalty at The Hague

but the entire neocon cabal belongs in jail for war crimes, crimes against peace, and crimes against humanity.

[Duer 157099]

72. Nowak said: "I think the evidence is on the table."

Well fer crissakes, don't let Nan get anywhere near it, we know how she likes knockin' things offa tables!!

[No Elephants]

74. It will come down to this: Are YOU AND I willing to do anything about this besides post?