Italy faces constitutional crisis over coma woman

[Bozita]

Source: Guardian UK

Italy faces constitutional crisis over coma woman
Michael Day in Rome
The Observer, Sunday 8 February 2009
Article history

The Italian government has been plunged into a constitutional crisis over the fate of a 38-year-old woman who has been in a coma for the past 17 years. Eluana Englaro was left in a vegetative state after a car crash in 1992. After a decade-long court battle, doctors reduced her nutrition on Friday in preparation for removing her feeding tubes, which her father claims would be in accordance with her wishes.

But in an extraordinary turn of events, the country's prime minister, Silvio Berlusconi, after consultation with the Vatican, has issued an emergency decree stating that food and water cannot be suspended for any patient depending upon them, reversing the earlier court ruling. On issuing the emergency decree, Berlusconi declared: "This is murder. I would be failing to rescue her. I'm not a Pontius Pilate."

Justifying his campaign to save Englaro's life, the prime minister added that, physically at least, she was "in the condition to have babies", a remark described by La Stampa newspaper as "shocking". Giorgio Napolitano, Italy's president, has refused to sign the decree, but if it is ratified by the Italian parliament doctors may be obliged to resume the feeding of Eluana early this week.

But, in a moving interview with the Observer, Eluana's father Beppino said last week that the doctors were carrying out his daughter's wishes by allowing her to die. "If she couldn't be what she was (before the accident in 1992) then she would not have wanted to live".

Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/feb/08/englaro-italy-vatican

[Sarah Ibarruri]

1. What on earth does this mean.....

....Justifying his campaign to save Englaro's life, the prime minister added that, physically at least, she was "in the condition to have babies",.....

They expect her to come out of her coma and have sex? What's wrong with these people?

[ShockediSay]

4. She doesn't have to come out of her coma for the likes of Berlusconi

to have sex with her.

Anybody see "Kill Bill?"

[Sarah Ibarruri]

5. I hate to laugh about something tragic like this, but it's funny how stupid Berlusconi is! nt

[Ken Burch]

14. Not sure they'd insist on the "coming OUT of the coma" part

Silvio probably LIKES them fertile but comatose.

:puke: :eyes:

[Solly Mack]

2. If Berlusconi were to release his own "battles" tomorrow I would not be surprised

I wouldn't be surprised if he were to re-release Mussolini's "battles" either

[MrModerate]

3. Let me be the first to say . . .

Fuck the Vatican and fuck Berlusconi.

(Although I suspect I'm not actually first.)

[IndianaGreen]

6. I would order the Italian air force to bomb the Vatican and prune the forest of its nazi pope

This is the Italian version of the Terri Schiavo case, with Berlusconi playing the role of Jeb Bush.

[earcandle]

7. Are they birthing babies anonymously with this woman?

Isn't that rape?

[Politicalboi]

9. Calling Dr. Frist

[pitchforksandtorches]

13. Yes send Frist first...

then send over the rest of the Rethuglicant congress men and women.......and leave them there.

[happyslug]

28. So the Vartican can NOT deny the call was made?

BERTONE-BERLUSCONI TELEPHONE CONVERSATION DENIED

VATICAN CITY, 6 FEB 2009 (VIS) - Holy See Press Office Director Fr. Federico Lombardi S.J. today released the following declaration denying a claim made by the Italian newspaper "La Stampa" that Cardinal Secretary of State Tarcisio Bertone S.D.B. and Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi had spoken by telephone concerning the suspension of tube hydration and feeding to Eluana Englaro, an Italian woman who has been in a coma since 1992:

"We categorically deny the report published this morning, with such emphasis, by an Italian daily newspaper, concerning a supposed telephone conversation between Cardinal Secretary of State Tarcisio Bertone S.D.B. and Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi. The news is completely unfounded".
OP/DENIAL/BERLUSCONI:BERTONEVIS 090206

http://212.77.1.245/news_services/press/vis/dinamiche/d1_en.htm

[pansypoo53219]

8. maybe the dad

should have her get IVF, then what would the fucking vatican say?

[RC]

10. IVF???

IVF means what to how many here?

[JTFrog]

19. In vitro fertilization?

:shrug:

[benld74]

11. Didn't the almost same damn thing happen In florida couple years ago?

[MadMaddie]

29. Yep

Terry Shiavo (spelling may be incorrect)

[scytherius]

12. How horribly barbaric. Let this woman's body die. n/t

nt

[Feron]

15. A pulse does not make a person alive.

My grandfather fell into a vegetative state as the result of a doctor's mistake. He was kept alive by machines, but there was no brain activity. He was dead.

Fortunately my family didn't have to battle the Catholic Church and their enablers in order to get his living will honored.

I can't imagine the anguish and expense this man has had to unnecessarily go through. His daughter is dead. It's not murder to allow a person to naturally pass on when there is absolutely no hope for a recovery. And especially if that is the explicit wish of the patient.

[dipsydoodle]

16. Mention of the Vatican

is a red herring. We get exactly the same issues in the UK from time to time and on each occasion our High Court becomes involved. I'm sure that similar situations occur from time to time in the USA which don't necessarily get reported unless they become high profile for whatever reason.

[Seldona]

17. "Physically at least, she is in the condition to have babies."

Hard to believe he said that. Well, not really. Can you imagine the father's reaction hearing that from his Prime Minister?

'Your daughter may be brain-dead, but she can still be a broodmare. Never mind her last wishes.'

You can't make this shit up. That is just wrong on so many levels.

[Joanne98]

18. I can't believe they re-elected Berlusconi. He's just like Bush!

[rpannier]

21. There are several bush-types serving as elected heads of state

Sad, but true

on edit: silvio isn't even the worst of them

[rpannier]

20. So if she couldn't have babies he'd not oppose the removal of the feeding tube?

That's just so twisted and bizarre

[jody]

22. Such problems will become legion in the US when some version of Universal Health Care is passed.

IMO it is not yet socially acceptable to set limits on who and when health care is denied to a person but that debate must begin in earnest.

[jberryhill]

32. No need

It turns out that these decisions are made every day.

Primarily, they are based on the wishes of the person in question.

Oddly, the religious nutters, given a preference for their own situation, choose not to be kept alive in a vegetative state.

They just want everyone else to be.

Maybe they are afraid of losing Republican votes.

[jody]

34. I see we disagree. Have a good day. n/t

[jberryhill]

35. We do?

I didn't get that impression, but have a happy.

[47of74]

23. What an ass

Berlusconi is an ass and a pig.

[Odin2005]

24. "in the condition to have babies" Silvio, GO TO HELL YOU SICK FUCK!!!

:puke:

[RFKHumphreyObama]

25. Berlusconi is an opportunistic egotist

No surprise he's milking this tragedy for everything it is worth. He is really below pond scum

[mackerel]

26. Well as Maxine says:

http://qtpidani.wordpress.com/2008/01/29/maxines-and-my-living-will/

[happyslug]

27. The Vatican DENIED it was contacted

BERTONE-BERLUSCONI TELEPHONE CONVERSATION DENIED

VATICAN CITY, 6 FEB 2009 (VIS) - Holy See Press Office Director Fr. Federico Lombardi S.J. today released the following declaration denying a claim made by the Italian newspaper "La Stampa" that Cardinal Secretary of State Tarcisio Bertone S.D.B. and Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi had spoken by telephone concerning the suspension of tube hydration and feeding to Eluana Englaro, an Italian woman who has been in a coma since 1992:

"We categorically deny the report published this morning, with such emphasis, by an Italian daily newspaper, concerning a supposed telephone conversation between Cardinal Secretary of State Tarcisio Bertone S.D.B. and Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi. The news is completely unfounded".
OP/DENIAL/BERLUSCONI:BERTONEVIS 090206 (120)

http://212.77.1.245/news_services/press/vis/dinamiche/d1_en.htm
This is from the Vatican for 2-6-2009

Vatican Daily Bulletin Web site:
http://212.77.1.245/news_services/press/vis/dinamiche/indd_en.htm#start

The Vatican has a strange system, as newer dates are added, older new releases are removed from that web site (Stored elsewhere on the Vatican site, but not as easily found as the Daily reports).

[IndianaGreen]

30. The Vatican denies the Holocaust ever took place

how can we take seriously any other claim they make?

[happyslug]

33. The Vatican makes no such claim, better check your source.

From the Vatican Web Site:

For example in 2005 on "AT THE INAUGURATION OF THE NEW MUSEUM
OF HOLOCAUST HISTORY IN YAD VASHEM, JERUSALEM"

Pope John Paul II repeats once again this morning to all those who are willing to listen that when we remember the "horrible crime committed against the Jewish nation"1 , that was the Holocaust, we do so because "these terrible events are for contemporary men and women a summons to responsibility, in order to build our history".2

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/2005/documents/rc_seg-st_20050316_tauran-holocaust_en.html

In 2000: SPEECH OF JOHN PAUL II on his VISIT TO THE YAD VASHEM MUSEUM:

I have come to Yad Vashem to pay homage to the millions of Jewish people who, stripped of everything, especially of their human dignity, were murdered in the Holocaust. More than half a century has passed, but the memories remain.

The Vatican even acknowledged it when dealing with Israel. For example in the 1993 "FUNDAMENTAL AGREEMENT BETWEEN THE HOLY SEE AND THE STATE OF ISRAEL":

§ 2. The Holy See takes this occasion to reiterate its condemnation of hatred, persecution and all other manifestations of antisemitism directed against the Jewish people and individual Jews anywhere, at any time and by anyone. In particular, the Holy See deplores attacks on Jews and desecration of Jewish synagogues and cemeteries, acts which offend the memory of the victims of the Holocaust, especially when they occur in the same places which witnessed it.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/secretariat_state/archivio/documents/rc_seg-st_19931230_santa-sede-israele_en.html

If you are going to attack the Vatican do so, it has many flaws, but try to stay with facts that the there is evidence to support OR there is no evidence that disputes your attack. The "Bishop" who made the statement that the Holocaust did not occur did have his excommunication revoked a few weeks ago, but he was NOT excommunicated for denying the Holocaust, but for saying Vatican II went to far. The Vatican has adopted a policy that merely making stupid comments is NOT an excommunications offense. As such the "Bishop" (and while his ex-communication was removed his Bishop is still NOT recognized by the Vatican) who made the statement was NOT saying anything that would get him excommunicated (or arrested in the US, free speech does NOT exclude speech you do not want to hear). Excommunication is an act done to a person who has done some ACT that shows a refusal to follow the pope (This rule ONLY applies to the "religious" as that term is used by the Catholic Church, which means members of the hierarchy, NOT your average Catholic). Remember that "Bishop" while now in communion with Rome, is still NOT a recognized bishop.

[jberryhill]

31. "Coma" and "Vegetative State" are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS

One of the irritating things about these types of stories is that many of them fail to differentiate between a coma and a persistent vegetative state.

[Betty]

36. so women are incubators, essentially

well, I'm not surprised to hear this. Not from this particular source.

[mackerel]

37. Glad to see this didn't turn into the Schiavo case.

The woman has died.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7880070.stm?lss

(Now Silvio will have to go looking for new publicity.)

[defendandprotect]

38. Just what Italy needs . . . a opinion by this Pope, this Vatican --- !!!

How does anyone begin to picture a woman in a coma and comment that she could still

have a baby!!!

What a FU'd view of women!!!